Listen to the audio version of The Last Word With Lawrence O’Donnell from the March 19th broadcast. Guests from tonight's show include Sen. Amy Klobuchar, Rep. Eric Swalwell and Rep. Andrea Salinas.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Now it's time for the last word, where Jonathan Capehart is in for Lawrence tonight.
00:04Good evening, Jonathan.
00:05Good evening, Rachel.
00:06You know, you started your show with the illustration from Roz Chast, the fun, boring, and in the
00:12middle is Bob.
00:15That is going to be my illustration for the next four years.
00:21Exactly.
00:23Some fun things are also boring.
00:25It happens.
00:26These things happen.
00:27It happens to anybody named Bob, especially my dad.
00:31That's great.
00:32Rachel, have a good night.
00:34Thank you, Jonathan.
00:36The day after Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts issued a rare rebuke of Donald
00:41Trump's call for impeaching judges who rule against him, Donald Trump once again attacked
00:48a federal judge who ruled against him, and he's enlisting his lieutenants in government
00:52to do the same.
00:54Overnight, Donald Trump posted this on social media, quote, if a president doesn't have
01:00the right to throw murderers and other criminals out of our country because a radical left
01:05lunatic judge wants to assume the role of president, then our country is in very big
01:11trouble and destined to fail.
01:14OK, first of all, Judge Boasberg was first appointed by Republican President George W.
01:21Bush.
01:22Second of all, a president does not have a right to do that in violation of the Constitution.
01:29And that's for a judge to decide.
01:32Welcome to America.
01:34Today, U.S. District Judge James Boasberg gave Trump's Justice Department another 24
01:40hours to answer five extremely straightforward questions in an effort to understand why the
01:46Trump administration didn't obey a court order Saturday to turn around flights deporting
01:52Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador.
01:54Question one, what time did the plane take off from U.S. soil and from where?
02:01Question two, what time did it leave U.S. airspace?
02:05Question three, what time did it land in which foreign country, including if it made more
02:11than one stop?
02:13Question four, what time were individuals subject solely to the proclamation transferred
02:17out of U.S. custody?
02:19And question five, how many people were aboard solely on the basis of the proclamation?
02:27The Trump administration has claimed it did not defy a court order.
02:32If that's the case, it shouldn't be a problem to answer these really very simple questions.
02:38But today on Fox, it seemed like Trump's Attorney General Pam Bondi let the mask slip.
02:45This judge has no right to ask those questions.
02:49You have one unelected federal judge trying to control foreign policies, trying to control
02:56the Alien Enemies Act, which they have no business presiding over.
03:01The judge had no business, no power to do what he did.
03:06In allowing the Trump administration more time to answer questions, Judge Boasberg let
03:11it be known that his patience with the Trump administration's shifting legal maneuvers
03:16is waning.
03:17Judge Boasberg writes, quote, the court seeks this information not as a micromanaged and
03:23unnecessary judicial fishing expedition, but to determine if the government deliberately
03:29flouted its orders issued on March 15th, 2025.
03:34And if so, what the consequences should be.
03:37He also invoked Chief Justice Roberts, writing, quote, as the Supreme Court has made crystal
03:43clear, the proper recourse for a party subject to an injunction it believes is legally flawed
03:49and is indeed later shown to be so flawed is appellate review, not disobedience.
03:56Judge Boasberg gave the Trump administration until 12 p.m. tomorrow, that's noon, to
04:01respond.
04:02A hearing is scheduled for Friday.
04:05Donald Trump seemed to suggest on Fox that maybe Chief Justice Roberts didn't mean
04:11to rebuke him.
04:12The name of the statement, I just saw it quickly.
04:16He didn't mention my name.
04:19But of course, Trump's call to impeach was answered today by Republican Congressman
04:24Brandon Gill.
04:26He introduced articles of impeachment against Judge Boasberg, the fourth judge to have articles
04:31of impeachment introduced against him after ruling against the Trump administration.
04:36Gill claimed without any evidence or consequences that Judge Boasberg is, quote, guilty of high
04:43crimes and misdemeanors and should be removed from office.
04:48Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, who will join us in a moment, dared the MAGA Republican
04:52to actually follow through.
04:55If this guy is really in Congress, he knows he can bring his impeachment articles immediately
05:01to a vote.
05:02He won't do that because he knows myself and a few other Dems will beat back this B.S.
05:10on the House floor.
05:13Trump's fake co-president, Elon Musk, came in very handy today.
05:18Elon Musk doesn't have to worry about a rebuke from the chief justice.
05:22And so Elon Musk posted about judicial impeachment 17 times in the past 24 hours.
05:30Elon Musk attacked Justice Roberts by name and called for taking a chainsaw to the federal
05:35judiciary.
05:37Musk is doing more than having an online tantrum about the judges who won't let him do whatever
05:43he wants.
05:44The New York Times reports that Musk, quote, has given the maximum hard dollar donations
05:50he could to the campaigns of seven Republicans who have either endorsed judicial impeachments
05:56or called for some form of action in response to recent rulings against the Trump administration,
06:03including a weekend decision by Judge James E. Boasberg.
06:09This new wave of threats has judges increasingly fearing for their safety.
06:13The Times also reports that Trump's call to impeach Judge Boasberg yesterday has, quote,
06:19cut off a string of near instant social media taunts and threats, including images of judges
06:24being marched off in handcuffs.
06:27The threats and intimidation may have not become actual violence, but they appear to
06:32be mounting as Mr. Trump, his advisors and his supporters are questioning almost daily
06:37the legitimacy of the American legal system.
06:40The attempts at intimidation have taken many forms, bomb threats, anonymous calls to dispatch
06:47police SWAT teams to home addresses, even the delivery of pizzas, a seemingly innocuous
06:54prank, but one that carries a clear message, quote, they know where you and your family
07:01members live, said one judge who is overseeing litigation against the Trump administration
07:06and has received a pizza delivery.
07:10As the federal courts hold the line on the law, Trump's and Musk's attempt to break
07:15the government goes on.
07:16Donald Trump and Elon Musk are spreading myths of widespread fraud in Social Security as
07:22Social Security is weighing changes that will actually reduce the number of older, infirm
07:28and rural people who can access their earned benefits.
07:32The New York Times reports that this week, the Social Security administration said that
07:36people who wanted to file for benefits or change the bank where their payments were
07:41deposited could no longer do so by phone and must first verify their identity online
07:48or go into a field office.
07:51District managers at the agency voiced concerns in internal discussions on Tuesday that carrying
07:55out these changes with fewer staff members would be unrealistic, said one employee familiar
08:01with the conversations.
08:04Of course, many older people who receive Social Security don't have Internet access or Internet
08:10fluency.
08:11Many of them are not able to drive sometimes long distances to a field office.
08:16And of course, it will be the poorest, worst off folks who will have the hardest time.
08:22This could be a de facto way to cut earned benefits by simply reducing people's ability
08:27to collect them.
08:29As a majority of voters disapprove of Donald Trump's handling of the economy, there was
08:34one clear message from the Federal Reserve today.
08:38Uncertainty is remarkably high.
08:41Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell announced that interest rates would remain unchanged
08:46amid increased economic uncertainty stemming from the impact of Donald Trump's tariffs.
08:52This comes just one day after Donald Trump fired two Democratic commissioners from the
08:57Federal Trade Commission.
08:59Rebecca Kelly Slaughter told CNBC that market stability could be eroded because of this
09:05action by the Trump administration.
09:08This is about policing the ability of the FTC to police markets and ensure honest businesses
09:15are protected instead of allowing companies that lie and cheat to get ahead.
09:20And it's not just about the FTC.
09:21It's about all of the structures of government that protect market stability.
09:26If I can be fired, I don't know why Jerome Powell can't be fired.
09:31And so the markets that depend on the stability provided by government institutions should
09:37be very concerned.
09:40Alvaro Bedoya warned about the lack of independence when it comes to billionaires like Elon Musk's
09:46influence on Donald Trump, saying, quote, When people hear this news, they need to not
09:52think about me.
09:53They need to think about the billionaires behind the president and his inauguration.
09:58Our first guest tonight, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar, is now calling on Donald Trump
10:03to reverse the illegal firings of these two commissioners, writing in a letter, quote,
10:09This action contradicts longstanding Supreme Court precedent, undermines Congress's constitutional
10:14authority to create bipartisan independent commissions, and upends more than 110 years
10:20of work at the FTC to protect consumers from deceptive practices and monopoly power.
10:27We urge you to rescind these dismissals so the FTC can get back to the people's work.
10:34Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, a member
10:39of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
10:41Senator Klobuchar, always great to see you.
10:43You sent a letter urging Trump to reinstate these fired FTC commissioners.
10:48Why is this so concerning?
10:52So in the middle of all the horror you just went through, including the Social Security
10:57Administration being decimated and finding out that seniors won't be able to call in
11:03when they have problems with their checks and they're going to have to go over there
11:06at whatever, age 90, this thing is actually really disturbing.
11:12Last year, the FTC returned $330 million to consumers from scams and frauds.
11:19They're the ones that said no to that grocery store merger.
11:23They're the ones taking on the biggest tech companies the world has ever known, with companies
11:29like Facebook and the like.
11:31And all of a sudden, Donald Trump has illegally fired the two Democratic-appointed commissioners.
11:37It's important to know that this has been a bipartisan commission for over 100 years,
11:42Jonathan.
11:43When a Democratic president comes in, it's 3-2, Democrat, Republican, and that's kind
11:47of how it works.
11:49And they've always worked together.
11:50They don't always agree, but they work together.
11:53So it is illegal.
11:55And that's very important to know as you talk about illegal acts, because 90 years ago,
12:00in a case called Humphrey's Executor, the U.S. Supreme Court said that this was legal
12:06to have these independent agencies and other agencies like it.
12:10So Donald Trump doesn't have a right to fire these two people.
12:13And actually, Justice Kavanaugh, when he was Judge Kavanaugh on the D.C. Circuit, commented
12:20that these kinds of commissions have been found to be legal by legal scholars and judges
12:26over the years.
12:27And you finally have the fact that when he tried to fire the two NLRB commissioners,
12:32National Labor Relations Board, right, two federal judges said, no, they're going back.
12:36So this was illegal.
12:37I believe they're going to sue, and they will be reinstated.
12:41Senator, despite Chief Justice Roberts' rebuke, Trump and his allies are continuing to attack judges.
12:46Does the chief justice have to do more?
12:49Can he do more?
12:51Well, this was unprecedented for him to issue something, a statement like this.
12:56And this is on top of what he did at the end of last year, when he said it was dangerous
13:01to attack federal rulings in a report.
13:03And now he has made it very clear that the route, if you disagree with a decision, is
13:09to appeal under the United States Constitution.
13:13And we know that a Supreme Court's ruling is final on units of government, so when they
13:19interpret the law.
13:20What Donald Trump is doing right now, not just in the case you mentioned, but he's messing
13:24around on the edges.
13:26They have obeyed court rulings in his first administration, and many right now that they
13:31are appealing.
13:33So the test is coming upon us about whether or not they actually are going to create a
13:38constitutional crisis.
13:40If that happens, the court has the inherent right to hold people in contempt that violate
13:46the law.
13:47So we're going to take this one step at a time, but I have to tell you, the threats
13:51on the judges, the increased kinds of violence that we're seeing, that we've been seeing
13:57for years with one federal judge having her kid killed just for coming to the door, these
14:04things are going on right now.
14:06And he is really playing with fire.
14:09And I am glad the chief justice made it clear what he thinks, but the obvious answer is
14:15going to be when the Supreme Court starts taking these cases on, as they have done already,
14:21where they show that they are following the law and not the wishes of a man who believes
14:26he's king with his court jester at his side, that would be billionaire Elon Musk, the billionaire
14:31jester of the Trump administration.
14:35That is not how this government was meant to be run.
14:38One more question for you, Senator.
14:40Yesterday was Medicaid Day of Action, as Trump and Musk are going after earned benefits.
14:45You recently talked with nursing home residents in Minnesota.
14:48What have you been hearing from your constituents, especially seniors?
14:54It's really important for people to think about Medicaid as what it really is, and that
14:58is, in my state, 50 percent of people in nursing homes are on Medicaid.
15:05When my dad had late-onset Alzheimer's and he had some savings, I knew the date that
15:11those savings were running out and that he was going to go on Medicaid.
15:14So many families are just like mine and know that date, or their loved ones are already
15:19on Medicaid.
15:20So this is about seniors.
15:22It's about people with disabilities.
15:24It's about kids.
15:25But it's also about entire families.
15:27And that's why Medicaid is so popular.
15:30And the way they have done this House budget, the Congressional Budget Office just said
15:35there's no way they can have this budget without cutting Medicaid with the numbers
15:38they put out there.
15:39So that's why we've had 120 events, members of the House and the Senate working together,
15:45Jonathan, as well as governors calling this out and asking people to rally to protect
15:52Medicaid.
15:55Senator Amy Klobuchar of the great state of Minnesota.
15:57Thank you, as always, for coming to The Last Word.
16:00Thanks.
16:01It was great.
16:02Glad you're hosting tonight.
16:03Thanks, Jonathan.
16:05And joining us now, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California.
16:07He is a member of the Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees.
16:11Congressman Swalwell, always great to see you, too.
16:16Thanks for being here.
16:17Judge Boasberg is the fourth judge to have impeachment articles filed against them.
16:23But Brandon Gill didn't have a great reason.
16:26Listen to this.
16:27I have to ask you this.
16:29For impeachment, obviously, you have to have high crimes, misdemeanors.
16:33What crime did the judge commit?
16:37This is for usurping the executive's authority, for demeaning the impartiality of the court
16:44by making a politicized ruling and forcing a constitutional crisis.
16:49That is a high crime and misdemeanor.
16:53Congressman, your reaction to that?
16:57I will take your word that that guy is in Congress.
17:01I've never seen him do anything but tweet out this performative nonsense, which is just
17:07a pro-wrestling act to raise money and to thump your chest and pretend like you're tough.
17:13What he just said there sounds like a chat GPT answer.
17:16But you know what, Jonathan?
17:18I don't do play Congress.
17:20I do big boy Congress.
17:22So if this guy wants to bring his articles of impeachment forward, he knows how to do
17:26it.
17:27He can call for a vote immediately and then he can meet me and Jasmine Crockett and Jamie
17:31Raskin and all of the others and have a real debate in the Judiciary Committee.
17:36And I promise you, Jonathan, we will beat it back because it's nonsense and he can try
17:40and impeach every judge he wants.
17:43Democracy will beat him every single day.
17:45Elon Musk's reportedly throwing money at this.
17:49Are you worried about how many congressional Republican Republicans votes that might net?
17:56They're living in absolute fear.
17:57And they tell me this.
17:58They tell me this.
17:59And the Dunkin Donuts line, they tell me this at the gym.
18:03One member told me his wife said to him, don't do this to us.
18:08It's going to hurt us at church.
18:09It's going to hurt us at the country club.
18:11That's the fear that they're living in.
18:12I don't know why they want to do this job.
18:14But what I can tell you is there is a fight on the horizon in just 14 days in Wisconsin.
18:20It's a judicial race where Republicans would essentially pick up two congressional seats
18:25in the Wisconsin Supreme Court if Elon Musk is able to buy his way into victory.
18:31And so I'm working with Wisconsin Democrats to try and turn out the vote there and protect
18:35that seat.
18:36Congressman Eric Swalwell.
18:37Eric Swalwell.
18:38Swalwell.
18:39John, let me just tell you one other thing.
18:40Real fast.
18:41This weekend.
18:42Because we've got to go.
18:43Yes.
18:44Saturday, Annapolina, Luna's district.
18:45David Jolly and I are going there.
18:47If they won't hold town halls to hell with them, I'll show up and I'll talk to their
18:52voters.
18:53Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you very much, as always, for coming to The Last Word.
18:57Coming up, Republican legislators are facing backlash at home, as we are seeing in a series
19:02of town halls where voters are expressing their outrage at Elon Musk's dodgy cuts.
19:08Our next guest, Democratic Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon, held a town hall last night
19:14and will tell us how Trump's cuts are affecting voters.
19:17That's next.
19:26This is how Republican Harriet Hageman of Wyoming began her town hall just a few hours
19:32ago.
19:33The opportunity to do town halls because it lets me come here, give you an update on what
19:38I'm doing back in Washington, D.C., and then I'm going to give you an opportunity to ask
19:43me questions.
19:44Before we get there, however, I get it that there are people here who dislike me.
19:50But there's also people here, but there are also people here who want to hear what I have
19:56to say.
19:57And if you have so little respect for our process, and for our, for what we are in this
20:11country, then I would ask you to leave.
20:17But they didn't leave.
20:18Voters in red states like Congresswoman Hageman's are frustrated and using that frustration
20:23to confront their Republican lawmakers.
20:26And in Wyoming, where Liz Cheney was seen as too liberal to keep her seat, voters are
20:32booing Elon Musk.
20:35I voted in favor of the Continuing Resolution, or CR, which extends funding through the fiscal
20:42year until September 30th.
20:45It keeps the lights on for President Trump and DOJ to continue their work.
21:06Congresswoman Hageman's town hall was held tonight in Laramie, where more than 25 years
21:12ago, two men targeted gay college student Matthew Shepard.
21:16They tortured him, tied him to a fence, and left him for dead.
21:20The horrific story and the effort to confront the deadly bigotry was made into an award
21:26winning play and film, The Laramie Project.
21:29It is the reason millions of people know the town of Laramie.
21:34And here is how Congresswoman Hageman, in Laramie, responded to a question about trans
21:41and non-binary people.
21:44This person would like to know how I am going to help protect the rights of trans and non-binary people.
21:59I don't even know what that means.
22:05Joining us now, Democratic Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon.
22:12Congresswoman, thank you for being here.
22:14You held an in-person town hall yesterday.
22:17What concerns did your constituents raise?
22:23Thank you, Jonathan.
22:24My constituents are outraged right now.
22:28They're outraged.
22:29They're scared.
22:30They're really concerned about things like Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare going away.
22:37I represent a really working class district here in the Willamette Valley of Oregon.
22:42These are people who work hard every single day.
22:45People who are farmers, farm workers, people who are trying to raise their kids, trying to make ends meet,
22:51not being able to afford food because of the sky high prices of eggs and just everyday products.
22:59We also have a lot of manufacturing here in this district.
23:02It's a very working class district.
23:04They're outraged right now.
23:05They're so angry that Donald Trump, our president, would hand over the keys to an unelected,
23:12unconfirmed Elon Musk who is a billionaire who wants to take away these really critical programs
23:19and critical healthcare.
23:21What would you say to your Republican colleagues who've been avoiding town halls?
23:29Well, the town hall I held last night was in a very red part of my district.
23:34I did not even win this district.
23:37And I got cheers every time I spoke out and basically said all the decisions I am making are based on what I'm hearing.
23:47I'm hearing from my growers who are losing out on USDA, U.S. Department of Agriculture loan access,
23:55on small business access.
23:58Wineries are worried about the tariffs that they're seeing.
24:02So I would tell Republicans to stand up, show up, and then vote for their constituents.
24:09But they need to be heard first, and Republicans need to listen to them
24:14because they're going to be in a world of hurt in a couple of years.
24:17Congresswoman, are any of the Trump voters having buyer's remorse, you think?
24:23I actually think they are.
24:25As I mentioned, I went to a town hall, and we had a few hundred people at this town hall.
24:29And for the most part, I heard cheers.
24:32And I did not hear the same thing that Congresswoman Hagerman heard at her town hall in Laramie.
24:39And I know there were folks who definitely voted for Trump, and I said that.
24:43And I said, I do believe that people who voted for Trump were lied to.
24:49They were sold a bag of goods.
24:52It was not honest.
24:53He talked about some of the same things I talked about during the campaign cycle.
24:57He talked about lowering costs, bringing down the cost of everyday items.
25:01That is not happening when we know chips manufacturing may not continue here in the United States the way Congress had intended.
25:08We know that, again, these tariff wars that are going on are only going to increase those prices.
25:13And we produce a lot of them here, right here in my district and here in Oregon.
25:17And so I think people are starting to realize and wake up.
25:20Farmers and growers across the United States who want a strong farm bill, want those price supports, want to pass down their farm to the next generation, they're worried.
25:30They're just as worried as people who are in the manufacturing sectors.
25:35And so, yeah, they feel lied to.
25:37I do think there's remorse.
25:38I think we need to give them the space to say that, too.
25:41Congressman, speaking of tariffs, Donald Trump's tariffs threats on wine from Europe is expected to make wine in Oregon more expensive.
25:50I heard you say you're in Willamette, which has great wine, by the way, I will say.
25:54Axios interviewed the founder of Ribbon Ridge Winery in Newburgh, Oregon, and he said, quote,
26:00Wine shouldn't be upon an international push and shove trade competition.
26:04It should represent a celebratory, sustainable product that brings us together at the table.
26:09Harry Peterson Nedry, the founder of Ribbon Ridge Winery in Newburgh, told Axios this damage is not only to winery producers, but consumers and the broader network of businesses such as restaurants, retailers and distributors, he said.
26:23Can you talk briefly about the impact tariffs, specifically tariffs, will have on your district?
26:30It will crush a community like the Willamette Valley.
26:34I've been telling folks I heard the day that Trump declared that he was putting 25 percent tariffs on Canada and Mexico.
26:43I was on I was getting ready to board my flight out to Washington, D.C., from Oregon, and I started getting my phone started blowing up.
26:50It was several of my wineries.
26:52They were so worried.
26:54And they said, look, Andrea, 50 percent of our export exported wine goes to Canada.
27:00We're getting phone calls right now from Canadians basically telling us we're taking product off the shelf.
27:07We are canceling contracts.
27:09We are going to be retaliatory and make sure that you hurt as well.
27:15And so and knowing that when 50 percent of the wine that is produced in Oregon goes to Canada, that is clearly going to hurt.
27:23And as you mentioned, and as Ribbon Ridge Winery mentioned, it's not going to be just the wineries themselves.
27:30It's the entire supply chain.
27:32It's the ecosystem.
27:33It is these small communities that rely on these businesses, on the work and all of the other supply chains that support these businesses.
27:43This is a community here in the Willamette Valley that is going to be crushed by this.
27:48Congresswoman Andrea Salinas of Oregon, thank you very much for coming to the last word.
27:54Thank you, Jonathan.
27:56And coming up, Donald Trump's day one promise was to end the war in Ukraine.
28:00The war is still not over as Donald Trump tries to make it seem like there is an end in sight with phone calls with Vladimir Putin and Volodymyr Zelensky.
28:10But our next guest says that Putin isn't planning any sort of peace.
28:15Mikhail Zygar, the founder of Russia's only independent news station, joins us next.
28:25Does that mean all intelligence sharing will continue?
28:29The White House is rejecting Russia's request.
28:32Intelligence sharing in terms of defense for Ukraine will continue to be shared.
28:38Today, the White House said America's intelligence community is continuing to share information with Ukraine,
28:44despite Vladimir Putin's demand against it as a condition for a 30-day ceasefire.
28:49This comes after President Trump's phone call this morning with Ukrainian President Zelensky,
28:55in which Zelensky agreed to pause airstrikes on energy facilities in Russia.
29:01Russia has claimed it would do the same.
29:04We'll see if Putin keeps his word.
29:06But there's no doubt Trump so far has failed to convince Putin to end the war,
29:11despite Trump's effort to make it seem like there's momentum to the talks.
29:16The Wall Street Journal editorial board writes,
29:19strip away the diplomatic pieties and the main result is that Mr. Putin didn't agree to Mr. Trump's 30-day ceasefire,
29:28while Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky did.
29:31Have we figured out yet who's the real obstacle to peace?
29:35Mr. Trump is struggling to see Mr. Putin for the aggressor he is,
29:39one that previous presidents have failed to tame via talks.
29:44It's a good sign Mr. Trump didn't concede to Mr. Putin's demands in this call.
29:49But the Russian dictator will play rough.
29:52He knows he can sustain more losses on the battlefield,
29:56and that Mr. Trump has promised voters he'll deliver peace.
30:01Mr. Trump's legacy would be permanently damaged by an outcome that the world perceives as a victory for Mr. Putin.
30:09U.S. public opinion isn't sold on Mr. Trump's bet,
30:14with more than 75% of Americans saying in a survey this month
30:19they're concerned that Mr. Putin wouldn't honor a peace deal,
30:23including 69% of Republicans.
30:27For all the noise of negotiations, what matters are the terms of a peace deal.
30:32CNBC reports today,
30:35in Ukraine, regional authorities in the northeastern region of Sumy said
30:39that local hospitals sustained damage during massive air attacks by Russian drones.
30:46Kyiv officials meanwhile reported 18 residences,
30:5020 townhouse apartments and 19 vehicles were harmed during an overnight attack.
30:56In a social media post this evening, President Zelensky said,
31:00it is such night attacks by Russia that destroy our energy, our infrastructure,
31:05the normal life of Ukrainians.
31:07And the fact that this night was no exception indicates
31:11that we must continue to put pressure on Russia for the sake of peace.
31:16Our next guest writes, Putin won't end the war.
31:20He can't afford to.
31:23Even if one were to come about, it wouldn't solve much.
31:28Given it lacks American security guarantees,
31:31Russia could easily provoke an incident,
31:34accuse Ukraine of violating the truce,
31:36and immediately retake abandoned positions stronger than ever.
31:41It's hard to say how the Trump administration might respond
31:44to a refused or broken ceasefire.
31:47But we should be clear about what Mr. Putin is planning.
31:51It's not peace.
31:53Joining us now is Mikhail Zeger,
31:56founding editor-in-chief of Dost, Russia's only independent news station.
32:01He is author of the substack newsletter,
32:04The Last Pioneer and a columnist for Der Spiegel.
32:08Mikhail, thank you very much for being here.
32:10What is Putin's political calculation around this war?
32:14Continuing it versus ending it?
32:18Thank you for having me.
32:19It's very clear that he thinks that he's got momentum
32:23and that he cannot lose the chance to go ahead and to lose this war.
32:29He has the feeling that he is stronger.
32:32He's much stronger than Ukrainians.
32:34And during the last month, in several speeches,
32:38he compared the situation,
32:40or somehow he started lecturing his audience about the First World War,
32:48and he compared the current situation to the last months of the First World War,
32:52saying that Russia was robbed of its deserved victory by premature ceasefire.
32:59So obviously he is not ashamed of publicly admitting it while in Russia
33:05that he doesn't want any kind of ceasefire.
33:08He wants victory.
33:10What's Putin's support like in Russia now?
33:13Is it stronger, weaker as the war continues?
33:16And will Trump return to power?
33:20We don't have any statistics.
33:22And yes, obviously, while the war is going on,
33:26Putin can't control the country.
33:29He can't control everyone because everyone is really afraid.
33:32The war has become the unique mechanism to control the country,
33:36including the elites, including his inner circle.
33:40And I think he knows that.
33:42And that's one of the main, very important reasons for him
33:46not to think of ending this war,
33:49because it will be much more dangerous for him if the army comes back,
33:54if the war veterans after the end of the war start speaking up.
34:00So-called systemic liberals, people from his elite, big business,
34:04are going to be very unhappy with everything that's happening.
34:07So there is the solution not to stop this war,
34:11because everyone is going to be terrified and mobilized
34:15at the same time as they are now.
34:19Do people inside Russia believe Trump is a deal-making master
34:23playing three-dimensional chess with Putin?
34:25How do they see the Trump-Putin power relationship?
34:32I would say that there are two camps,
34:36and both of them are very funny.
34:41The biggest one, and somehow there is an alliance of Russian propaganda
34:47and Russian middle class, Russian big business,
34:50see that as an opportunity, because for many people,
34:55if there is a chance to bring the situation back to pre-war conditions,
35:01to the early 2022, it will be the best-case scenario.
35:07And sometimes Russian propaganda started praising Donald Trump
35:13and calling him a reliable partner.
35:17There is an installation erected next to American embassy in Moscow.
35:22We are huge plastic ladders.
35:25We are together in white, red, and blue,
35:29colors of Russian flag and American flag as well.
35:31So a lot of people are really happy with that,
35:34or they are instructed to be happy.
35:36But there is a huge part of the population
35:39who probably are so brainwashed by so many years of anti-American propaganda
35:48and who distrust America that much,
35:50so they suspect a lot.
35:52And basically, they have a very important argument on their side this morning,
35:57because the consequences of the last conversations
36:01between Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump
36:04were not really optimistic for Russians,
36:07because when Donald Trump offered Zelensky
36:11to get all Ukrainian energy infrastructure
36:14and Ukrainian nuclear power stations under American control
36:20and American ownership,
36:22that was a very important sign for many Russians,
36:27which means actually Trump is much more serious
36:32than he was considered to be by many Russians.
36:39Mikhail Zeger, thank you very much for coming to The Last Word.
36:43Thank you for having me.
36:45And coming up, Donald Trump has begun his second term
36:48by ramping up attacks on journalists and the media.
36:51What does that mean for First Amendment freedoms
36:54guaranteed for all Americans?
36:56That's next.
37:03What does a second Donald Trump term mean
37:05for the freedoms protected in the First Amendment?
37:08Freedom of speech, freedom of the press,
37:10the freedoms of religion to protest peacefully
37:13and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
37:17Our next guest, New York Times business investigations editor David Enrich,
37:22examines that question in his new book,
37:25Murder the Truth, Fear the First Amendment
37:28and a Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful.
37:31Much of this begins with the landmark Supreme Court case
37:34New York Times v. Sullivan from 1964.
37:38The case was born out of the civil rights movement
37:42and became a cornerstone of press freedom in the United States,
37:45protecting journalists' ability to investigate public figures
37:49without getting buried under frivolous libel lawsuits.
37:53Previewing the book in a recent piece for the New York Times magazine,
37:58Enrich writes,
38:00For decades, support for Sullivan and the court's ensuing libel decisions
38:04was widespread across the political spectrum.
38:07As recently as 2010, Congress passed a law
38:10that endorsed the full extent of free speech protections
38:14to authors and publishers that are available in the United States
38:18and criticized the weaker protections against libel lawsuits
38:21that exist in other countries.
38:23In a barely recognizable act of bipartisan unity,
38:27not a single lawmaker in either chamber voted against the legislation.
38:33But beneath the surface, dissent was building.
38:37David Enrich is the business investigations editor of the New York Times
38:41and best-selling author of Dark Towers and Servants of the Damned.
38:45Again, the new book is Murder the Truth, Fear the First Amendment,
38:50and a Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful.
38:53Thank you very much for being here.
38:56We spent a lot of time on this show tonight
38:59talking about Donald Trump's fight with the federal courts.
39:02Your focus here is on his fight with the so-called fourth estate, us, journalists.
39:07What's caught your attention so far in Trump's second term?
39:11I think the biggest thing is that we all grew pretty accustomed
39:15to the fiery and incendiary rhetoric that Trump was using
39:19against his perceived enemies in the first term.
39:22And what really struck me in the first two months of this term
39:25is how that rhetoric has really turned into action.
39:28And with the media, we've seen that,
39:30with him really openly declaring war against news outlets.
39:33And that's kind of the story I tell in the book is how we got here
39:36and how this animosity has been building up in the right for decades.
39:40And it's finally kind of crescendoing and beginning to pose a real threat, I think,
39:44to the ability of journalists and members of the public
39:47to scrutinize the richest and powerful people in this country.
39:50You spotlight the 1964 unanimous Supreme Court decision
39:53in Times v. Sullivan in this book.
39:56Explain to those who might not be familiar
39:58why and how it relates to everything we're seeing right now.
40:02Well, this decision basically protects journalists and members of the public
40:06and their ability to write and investigate and criticize powerful people
40:10without worrying that if they make an honest mistake,
40:12they might get sued into oblivion.
40:14So people like Trump and many of his allies are trying to water down those legal protections,
40:20which will just basically make it much easier for them
40:22to not only sue people who criticize them,
40:24but also to make threats that will have to be taken seriously.
40:27And really, I think it would be an effort.
40:29It's already becoming an effort, basically, to silence people
40:32who are standing up to those in positions of power
40:35and writing things or saying things that are really critical.
40:40David Enrich, author of the new book, Murder the Truth, Threats, Intimidation,
40:45and a Secret Campaign to Protect the Powerful.
40:48David, thank you for joining us this evening.
40:51Thanks for having me.
40:52And we'll be right back.
40:58And that is tonight's last word.