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NewsTranscript
00:00Charles, you know I'm going to first you are our legal expert lay out for us
00:04What is happening with this hearing today? And what's next? So in plain terms imagine your parent tells you hey
00:11No TV after 10 o'clock and you get caught playing video games at 10 or 5 and say you didn't say anything about video games
00:18That's essentially what the Trump administration is trying to pull here a judge ordered these planes to be turned around after the Trump administration
00:27Relied on an archaic law from
00:291798 that isn't even used during peacetime to subvert the notion of due process
00:35Which we are all granted in America, and he did so in order to try and move these migrants to
00:41Venezuela the judge said from the bench
00:44Hey
00:45You've got to turn these planes around and what this administration is trying to argue now is well
00:50They were in international airspace by the time that order came down by the way if it had been written
00:55It would have more credence which is not a thing by the way if a judge
00:59Makes an order from the bench or in writing it is an order that much must be followed and must stand and they are
01:05Trying to say because these planes were in international water
01:08We didn't necessarily have to follow your ruling so they're not denying the fact that they blatantly
01:14disregarded the order from this judge what they are trying to do is shift the
01:18Conversation and say these are criminals in order to essentially shape public opinion in a way that gives them the cover
01:25To do what they've done
01:26I want to talk about that in a second
01:28But let's talk about who is on the plane Luke because the headlines are saying that these are alleged gang members and they're criminals
01:34Do we know that to be the case?
01:37We don't we know that the Trump administration has alleged that they are members of a criminal gang
01:44their names are still anonymous to us in the media and frankly that's the whole point of this case is
01:51The judge is saying
01:54We have to have hearings here right like you can't just
01:58Reach back into history to find an old law
02:02That is at use during wartime and then apply it during a peacetime and say we're at war and say that you can
02:10Suspend due process you have to have hearings here
02:12It may be that they are all you know criminal gang members and should be deported
02:17But how can we actually know that how can we verify that unless they get due process?
02:22and unless we have the hearings and so that's really the fundamental right at stake here is
02:29Is there still an intact legal system?
02:32when the Trump administration invokes these kind of
02:35Rash and expedited hearings. All right, Susan these gentlemen just laid it out right using a 200 year old
02:43wartime power
02:45President or the administration is now accused of defying a federal judge's order put this into perspective
02:51Eight weeks into the presidency. Here's where we are
02:55Yeah, that's right, I mean a couple observation stuff first of all, I think
03:01it's a mark of how inured we are to the extraordinary blowing through of
03:07norms traditions rules and laws that there isn't a greater outcry around this because it's not just that the
03:14Administration potentially very explicitly seems to have defied a judge's ruling
03:19But that they are doubling down on this and now you have senior officials of the u.s
03:26Government under President Trump essentially whipping their supporters up in a frenzy
03:32Attacking a federal judge's ruling attacking the judge himself a Jack attacking the legitimacy of the courts
03:39Here's a tweet that just came out from Stephen Miller the deputy White House chief of staff just minutes ago
03:45Saying the president's cabinet must defend spend all their energies focused on solely delivering not spending untold hours
03:53trying to answer the insane edicts of
03:57radical rogue judges
03:59Usurping core article 2 powers. These judges are bulldozing our
04:04Democracy, you know again, let's just contemplate what's happening
04:08They're picking a fight. It seems to me with the judicial bounce. Perhaps they see it as politically advantageous
04:15They want to have a conversation about how tough they are on
04:19Dangerous criminal immigrants, but I think it's really notable that they are leaning so far into outright
04:27Attacking the lawful ruling of a federal judge
04:31David President Trump campaigned on mass deportations
04:34It was one of his most popular campaign promises
04:38Does that make this the perfect test case for him politically to try to expand his powers?
04:44By saying he's doing what he campaigned on doing
04:49Yeah, I think it does and I think it's why the administration is happy to have this fight
04:56Look polling has shown that where the president has trouble
05:01Economically because of the tariffs and his approval ratings on that issue are suffering
05:06voters by and large are very happy with how he's handled illegal immigration and there was a sense from voters and I talked to a
05:13Lot of voters over the past couple of years that felt like during the Biden administration
05:17That the US government was at the sort of the mercy of whether an illegal immigrant would game
05:23Asylum laws or come across the border illegally and that there wasn't much we could do about it
05:28And what the president is saying is I'm gonna do whatever it takes and there's an appeal to that and
05:34until the American people if voters ever feel a
05:38Negative impact from his challenging of the courts, which they're used to that. This is not the first time he's done that rhetorically
05:47Then I think they're gonna give him latitude, right? We're talking politically here
05:51Obviously, there are all sorts of ways in which this could go south and impact other
05:56Other issues beyond illegal immigration, but this is something they wanted him to do
06:03Not necessarily challenge the courts in the way he did but clean up illegal immigration and they're gonna give him room to do that here
06:10It's why it's the perfect test case Charles. There are a lot of people who would agree that
06:17Deporting criminal migrants is a good idea
06:20So Trump could get a whole lot of political support
06:24But legally if he ignores the court, does this not create a slippery slope?
06:30When it comes to three separate but equal branches of government a deterioration of that
06:36Of course it does and I think Susan's point
06:38It's something that needs to be emphasized for people who are focusing on who the target is here
06:43That's not the issue. The issue is that we have processes that are intended to uphold how our Democrat
06:50Democratic system is supposed to function and without those process being here to do process being one of them and respect for the rule of
06:57Law being another everything falls apart with respect to its legitimacy
07:01Just think for a moment if you have a president who is willing to subvert the authority of the judicial branch
07:07What does that do in terms of how long it takes for the people to say they're totally illegitimate?
07:13Why should I listen to judges either it completely undermines how our system is supposed to work in
07:19addition to the fact that you're setting up a constitutional crisis because
07:23Think back to the immunity ruling by the Supreme Court
07:26Let's say that the judiciary says you sir are in contempt for violating this order
07:32This is an act that he has committed as the president
07:35So the higher it goes up the chain the more likely it is that he's going to be found immune from any wrongdoing
07:41Even though he has now violated the order of a federal judge. That's a slippery slope. All right new topic Charles
07:47Is there any legal basis for what President Trump is saying about President Biden's?
07:53Pardons and auto pen and that they should be null and void none at all
07:57Not in not in fact not in law not in any sort of framing of the Constitution or presidential veto powers
08:04Is this a thing and since we're on the topic of slippery slope Stephanie?
08:09Imagine if we were somehow able to invalidate every piece of legislation or edict that came
08:15From the Resolute Desk via auto pen think about how many different pieces of legislation
08:21Policies and laws would immediately be erased by that sort of notion
08:26Donald Trump here is talking about something that has been embarrassing to him politically and that's why he wants people to focus on it
08:32And that's why he's brought up this
08:34Cockamamie issue of an auto pen when in reality there is all smoke and absolutely no fire
08:40Well, David, it seems like this auto pen theory
08:43Originally came from guess where the Heritage Foundation, which is behind project 2025
08:48How direct is the link between the Heritage Foundation and the Oval Office?
08:52It seems like heritage is living their best life with this administration
08:57Well, look here it is is transformed from a conservative think-tank into an extension of the Trump administration of the Trump campaign the Trump political operation
09:05So none of that is surprising, but I just think this whole issue is a distraction, right? I mean, there are some real issues
09:11That really matter whether it's how the how the president is handling illegal immigration whether or not he's defined courts or testing the courts
09:20Is economic policy, which is obviously
09:24disrupting
09:25Many sectors of the economy. These are the sorts of things he likes to do to get send people off chasing squirrels
09:31And I just don't think it it's that big of a deal at the end of the day
09:35Compared to focusing on things that really matter. Okay, here's something that really matters
09:40President Trump and Vladimir Putin hopping on a call tomorrow Susan
09:44What is your reaction to hearing the president openly talk about dividing up certain assets
09:52Yeah, that was a comment today that really, you know caught one's attention especially given the extent to which
09:58Trump and other members of his administration have been almost openly, you know pressuring Ukraine
10:04Suggesting that Ukraine not only might have to concede territory that Russia has illegally
10:10Occupied in the course of its invasion of the country
10:13But you know now to go to the next of us suggesting that you know, they're going to have to concede long term their reports
10:21suggesting that Trump might be willing to
10:23Give further concessions to Russia in order to get some kind of a ceasefire deal in place. Remember that last week
10:32President Zelensky's envoys met with Trump's envoys in Saudi Arabia and they talked about agreeing amongst themselves
10:39On a potential 30-day ceasefire
10:42Putin then rejected that and continued to have very maximalist demands, you know again and again
10:48Stuff when given the chance Donald Trump has refused not only to say anything critical of Russia's invasion of Ukraine
10:55But has continued to say publicly in the lead-up to this conversation that he and Putin have such a good
11:01Relationship that they're on such good terms the exact opposite of how he's talked about
11:07President Zelensky and our allies and partners in Ukraine
11:11And so I think there's a lot of trepidation about how far Trump might be willing to go to make concessions
11:18Toward the maximalist demands that Putin still seems to have Putin. Remember has denied Ukraine's legitimacy
11:26It's very right to exist as a state
11:30Okay, I was out last week. I stored up a lot of thoughts about all sorts of things
11:37I didn't watch the whole government funding debacle from afar
11:40It feels to me like it's about time for a really honest conversation about Democratic leadership in Washington right now
11:46And what the heck is going on there? So we're definitely gonna have that conversation tonight
11:50I have my own thoughts. I'm gonna share with you too. There are also some good things happening out there. No doubt
11:54I mean, we're gonna talk about those two Democrats like Tim Walz
11:57How to help town hall meetings and red districts over the weekend. That's great
12:01Senator Ruben Gallego held a town hall in Phoenix, Arizona today
12:04He's gonna join me later tonight to talk about how that went
12:07We're also gonna talk about the hearing tonight over deportations that just wrapped up Ryan Riley was in the courtroom
12:14He's hustling over here to the studio
12:15And he's gonna tell us about everything that happened in that room and what the judge had to say
12:20but I wanted to start tonight with what I kind of think is one of the unifying principles of this administration and that is
12:27Basically their myopic view on owning the libs as they call it
12:31They love to own the lips to the extent that they have one goal owning the lip seems to be that goal
12:36Remember that they mean doing anything they can to offend humiliate or destroy things that anyone left of Sean Hannity
12:44May possibly care about I mean Donald Trump visited the Kennedy Center for a board meeting today
12:50After seizing control of it and making himself the new chair. What a good use of time for a president the Kennedy Center now
12:57I think all of you probably know what it is
12:58But it's been an arts institution here in Washington DC for over 50 years lots of people perform there all sorts
13:03They're not political but to Trump it was too woke and needed to be straightened out
13:09So he has to own the libs Trump is basically destroying the Kennedy Center people are refusing to perform there anymore
13:15And he basically said so himself today
13:19We'll make it great again, but it is so much like what I'm witnessing in other places we have open borders
13:25We have men playing in women's sports, it's all the same thing it's all the same mentality and thinking I
13:32Mean it's all the same mentality and thinking Kennedy Center the culture wars
13:37Actual policy of any sort it's all the same thinking to Trump
13:41And it's exactly the same thinking when it comes to the way he and Elon Musk are gutting the federal government
13:47I mean take NOAA, which is the agency responsible for things like
13:52Forecasting our weather and tracking climate trends and
13:55Responding to extreme weather events most people accurately see it as an a political tool for knowing what the weather is going to be outside
14:02Which hey we all rely on place where a bunch of science nerds prepare for natural disasters
14:07That's what happens in that building
14:09The project 2025 labeled it as quote one of the main drivers of the climate change alarm industry
14:17Think about how absurd that statement is this is an agency made up of scientists scientists
14:22Who are literally measuring and predicting weather patterns some of which are caused by yes the climate crisis
14:29And they're destroying that agency. That's the goal. That's front and center for the Trump team. That's what they're trying to do
14:36Now over the past few weeks the Trump administration has slashed
14:39Hundreds of NOAA staff including people responsible for producing critical weather forecasts and maintaining radar systems
14:45And they're not done the agency is tasked with cutting an additional 1,000 jobs, which means 10% of its workforce
14:53See the Donald Trump and his buddy Elon Musk. NOAA is just another woke agency that stirs up climate hysteria
15:00And so it's one of the agencies that has found itself in their crosshairs
15:04But here's the thing when devastating tornadoes swept across the country this week
15:09It actually wasn't coastal Democrats in their path at all
15:11It was states like Mississippi and Arkansas and Alabama and Missouri
15:17states that would definitely not self-identify as woke in any way and
15:21States that would definitely benefit from a fully operational and fully staffed and fully funded NOAA
15:28What about FEMA?
15:30Which provides essential tools for cleaning up and rebuilding after devastating storms like the ones we also saw last week and this week
15:38Trump and Elon Musk claim the agency is a political tool wielded by Democrats during disasters
15:44I don't even know what they mean by that exactly
15:47So guess what? They've done they've cut jobs there too and Trump is even mused about shutting it down altogether
15:55That's how they're owning the libs. I guess right? I mean, that's their approach
16:00But guess which states get the most recovery funding from FEMA and the Department of Housing and Urban Development
16:05Well states like Louisiana and Florida and Texas not exactly target Democratic states
16:12Those ones typically notice the theme here
16:15See the things they've already done and things they're planning to do actually hurt red states more than blue states
16:21They're trying to own the libs, but they're actually hurting Trump voters
16:24The people they are hurting the most are in the very states that voted to put Trump in the White House
16:30And we're seeing this everywhere all the time. It's happening every day
16:33They're hurting red states by working to repeal the Inflation Reduction Act, even though 80% of the investments are in
16:39Republican districts
16:41They'll continue to hurt people who voted for them if they go after Social Security
16:45which one in five Americans across every single state rely on and
16:49They'll hurt lots of proud MAGA members if they go after Medicaid. In one Appalachian County in Kentucky
16:56Almost 90% of the residents in Harlan County
16:59That's what I'm talking about voted for Trump and almost half of them half of them receive Medicaid
17:04One woman relying on a Medicaid funded treatment program for addiction told the Washington Post if it were to go away today
17:11I would be homeless tomorrow. I would lose everything all my counseling all my treatment
17:17If Trump takes the things that they're saying it's going to be devastation for Eastern, Kentucky for sure
17:23And you don't have to just to take her word or my word for that matter for it. Here's Steve Bannon
17:29A lot of MAGA's on Medicaid. I'm telling you if you don't think so
17:34You are dead wrong
17:36Medicaid is gonna be a complicated one. Just can't take a meat axe to it. Although I would love to I
17:41Mean the music in the background there is really quite something
17:43But the point is that guy is not exactly known for his empathy. He's not really in a super empathetic guy
17:48But he understands the political reality of Medicaid and other issues, too
17:54Trump is also hurting red states with his beloved tariffs
17:57He loves those tariffs according to New York Times analysis nearly 8 million Americans work in industries targeted by tariffs and the majority are Trump voters
18:05The jobs that could be hit by retaliation are especially concentrated in pockets of the Upper Midwest South and Southeast
18:11Including many rural parts of the county that are responsible for producing agricultural goods
18:16And again, don't take my word for it or their word for it. Here's Mike Pence
18:22The truth is when it comes to tariffs
18:24The importer here in the United States pays the tariff the foreign country doesn't pay the tariff more often than not passes along
18:33The increased costs on that product to the consumer too often. I hear the administration talking about
18:39broad-based
18:40Unilateral tariffs that I think will ultimately work against American jobs American families and American business
18:49There you heard it from noted liberal crusader as he's well known Mike Pence
18:54See what's becoming increasingly clear. Is that in this broad effort to own the libs Donald Trump is actually owning his own voters
19:03You'd wonder why Republicans don't want to hold town meetings out there
19:08Joining me now are two people who know a whole lot about life in red states
19:11John Tester is a former US senator from Montana and Mitch Lander is the former mayor of New Orleans
19:16I'm so delighted you both could make it this evening and so excited to talk to you senator. Let me start with you
19:22I mean you represented Montana for years
19:24One of the things I always admired about you is you were so much more Montana than you ever were, Washington
19:29You were so in touch with your voters
19:31But I kind of went through there with some of the ways that these policies are impacting people or could impact people across the country
19:39Let me start by asking you. What did I miss there in terms of how these policies could impact people in your state?
19:45Well, look, I think the tariffs are a big one because we depend on export markets to market our grains and pulse crops for sure
19:52I think what he has proposed to do with the with the Postal Service is a
19:57Incredible nail in the coffin for rural America
20:00I think if you take a look what he's done with the VA
20:0410% of the people live in a rural state like Montana or veterans and you can say you're not cutting benefits
20:09But if you don't have the people in the in the VA to be able to deliver those benefits
20:13You have cut those benefits and then if you take a look at you know
20:16What he's done to the Forest Service and the Park Service
20:19You know the recreation economy and outdoor economy in Montana is worth about six or seven billion dollars a year
20:26If that becomes screwed up, which it appears it's headed in that direction
20:31It's going to have a major impact on on the economy in the state. So I agree with you
20:36I I think that if you take a look at what he is doing
20:41And he did this in the last term pitting Democrats versus Republicans and liberals against conservatives
20:47He's now doing it on the world stage
20:49He's trying to pit America against everybody else except for China and Russia and North Korea and Iran
20:56and that's that's a bunch of crap and
20:59And I can tell you that if this continues on and Democrats don't get a good message and don't push back
21:05It's gonna get it's gonna get pretty ugly for rural areas in the state in this country
21:10I want to ask you about that
21:11I want to just ask Mitch Furstberg before I come back to you on that and a bunch of crap
21:14We need t-shirts that say that so I'll just say that Mitch
21:18Let me ask you because I just I think it's so important
21:20We're really trying on the show to help people understand the impact of these policies
21:23You get so we get so mired in kind of government bureaucratic speak in Washington
21:26Let me ask you about no one FEMA
21:28I mean, these are two agencies in the administration's crosshairs
21:31Two things that do a whole lot to help a lot of people red states and blue states
21:36You know how much they help people
21:38What do you think about that?
21:39Especially given the storms we've seen over the past few days
21:43Well, Jen, thanks and Senator Testa. It's great to see you
21:45Thank you for your service to our country. You you were great
21:48I thought the litany that you outlined in your opening was really really good
21:51And I agree with everything Senator Testa said
21:53Donald Trump basically is using his power to hurt people and to tear things down because he wins by division
21:59That's the common denominator through all of this
22:01So let me focus just on one thing
22:03I'm aware of all the things Senator Testa talked about and I agree with them
22:06But Noah for folks that don't know who they are
22:09They're a bunch of really great smart people that help people like me
22:13When we were mayor of a Gulf Coast town to be able to see when hurricanes, tornadoes and floods were coming our way
22:21So that we could get people out of the way and save people
22:24And when I was mayor of the city of New Orleans, I worked with Noah
22:27If not on a daily basis, on a weekly basis
22:30Because when hurricane season hits, we are at a tension
22:33I'm telling you, we're standing on the parapet looking out, you know, for all the places and offices of Homeland Security
22:39And that's when we see a storm out and we've got to see it 140 hours out
22:44In order to be able to start moving people
22:46If it comes to 130 and to 90 and to 60 and to 30 and then to 20
22:51Listen, Katrina for everybody that watched was a catastrophic event
22:55We lost 1800 people
22:57Had Noah not been there and had we not moved more we would have
23:00We could have lost 10,000 people
23:02And so it is one of the most unpolitical organizations that exist
23:07And they're just there to try to save lives
23:10And to cut them at a time when it's necessary
23:13It's going to affect wildfires, it's going to affect tornadoes
23:16It's going to have an impact on flooding, it's going to have an impact on hurricanes
23:20It just to me doesn't make any sense in the world
23:22And all of these cuts don't seem to have any rhyme or reason about being Democrat, a Republican, a conservative, a liberal
23:29They're just really not smart
23:31And they're going to hurt people in a very big way
23:34If the president continues along the path that he's on
23:37So Senator, let me come back to you and just pull a thread on something you said a moment ago
23:42Which is just about Democrats getting kind of the message in order
23:45And when Democrats are in the minority here in the Senate and the House
23:48There are things you can share with us, what you think they should do legislatively
23:51You always have perspective from being at home sometimes
23:53But what should the message sound like?
23:56You talk to people in Montana all the time
23:58You know what people want to hear
23:59What should it sound like that maybe you're not hearing from people in Washington right now?
24:03So I get emails every day
24:06Still get emails every day from people who have been impacted
24:09By what's going on in these different agencies
24:12Bring those working families to the table
24:15And make sure Democrats are talking to them and talking about their stories
24:20I think it's really, really important
24:22You take a situation where a veteran can't get their health care
24:26And you say, well, you know, I heard Secretary Collins the other day
24:29He said, would you put them in a private sector?
24:32That doesn't work in places if you don't have a lot of hospitals
24:35And access to those hospitals in the private sector
24:38So, I mean, there's a lot of things that Democrats can start doing moving forward
24:43But it all needs to be based around working families, middle America, so to speak
24:48And, you know, talk about the issues that people are talking about on the ground
24:53That's why, by the way, those town halls are so really, really important
24:56Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, you ought to be doing them
24:59Because you get good information if they listen to your constituents
25:03That's so true
25:04I mean, those town halls, I think watching them have been really inspiring
25:08I think it feels like a good thing happening out there
25:10Democrats showing up in red districts or their own districts
25:13A lot of Republicans are not doing these town halls
25:15Mitch, you know a lot about a lot of things
25:17But you have a very good feel for politics and when things are sticking or not sticking
25:21We're seeing some outrage at town halls
25:24When do you think all of the things we've been talking about are going to catch up with them?
25:28Well, Tessa can tell you this, this is organic
25:30Look, I was a legislator for 16 years
25:32I had to have town hall meetings all the time when I was mayor
25:35I had town hall meetings with sometimes between 500 and 1,000 people there
25:38I was the first one there, I was the last one to leave
25:40I got my behind handed to me a lot of times
25:43You've got to stand there and take it from your constituents
25:45And by the way, I'm happy to go do town halls
25:47If the Republicans are too scared to show up to talk to their constituents
25:50Every Democrat in the country ought to be going to do them
25:52Because John is right, the idea is to talk to middle America
25:55To working class people and to meet them where they live
25:58What do they care about?
25:59They care about a roof over their head
26:00They care about putting food on the table for their kids
26:02They care about paying tuition, buying a piece of equipment
26:06To do whatever they have to do on the piece of property that they're on
26:09To have a little extra room so that they can have some sense of joy in their life
26:14And the problem is President Trump, at Kennedy Center
26:16That's one of the great institutions
26:18Everything this guy touches turns to dirt
26:20And he's going to decimate that institution
26:22But he spent more time talking about the Kennedy Center and plastic straws
26:26Than he has about lowering class for everyday Americans
26:29And people are feeling that, they're dealing with it
26:32I want to encourage all of the elected officials
26:34Republicans and Democrats, go talk to your folks
26:37They will tell you what it is that they need and what they want
26:40And you have to respond to them
26:42I love that, first of all
26:44I would go to a Senator Tester, Mitch Landrieu town hall
26:47If you're going, I'd like to join you
26:49Thank you both
26:51There's one other story that is breaking just tonight
26:55It's just broken, it's just developed sort of within the past couple of hours
26:58And I want to bring this to you first
27:00I'm not sure you've seen this elsewhere
27:03You might remember a couple of weeks ago
27:05We covered here on this show
27:07A sort of, in the grand scheme of things
27:10A small scale confrontation
27:13In one small government office in Washington
27:16It's a little agency that you definitely haven't heard of
27:19It's called the U.S. Africa Development Foundation
27:22And the reason we covered what was going on there
27:25Is because something unusual happened there
27:28When Trump went after that office
27:30Went after that agency and tried to shut them down
27:32At that agency, they had a physical confrontation
27:36With people from DOJ
27:39From the Elon Musk austerity group
27:43These would-be anonymous young men who work for Elon Musk
27:47They showed up, do you remember the story?
27:49They showed up at that small government agency
27:51And they demanded to be let inside
27:53And that small government agency told them no
27:56They said, we're an independent agency
27:58We are actually not part of the executive branch
28:01You have no legal authority over us
28:03You have no legal right to come in
28:05We do not invite you in
28:07We say you can't come in, you cannot come in
28:09And the DOJ kids laughed when they were told they couldn't come in
28:13But then the next day they came back with muscle
28:15They came back with people who said they were U.S. Marshals
28:20And we think those people were possibly armed
28:24They were carrying guns
28:26Now the U.S. Marshals Service consistently will not comment on this
28:30They will not say whether or not those people were actually U.S. Marshals
28:35We have some reporting that suggests they may not have been U.S. Marshals
28:40Nevertheless, they reportedly claimed to be U.S. Marshals
28:44And with those men, with those people claiming to be U.S. Marshals
28:49The young men from DOJ did physically force their way into that agency
28:54And then locked out all the actual staff and changed the locks
28:58So whether or not your heart strings are pulled by the fate of that individual agency
29:05You can see why this might be a qualitatively more worrying thing than some of the other stuff we have seen
29:11There are legitimate legal disputes as to whether this DOJ group has any legal authority
29:16Over some of these agencies that they are trying to get into
29:20So they can take over their systems and fire their staff and shut them down
29:23Those disputes are legal disputes that need to be sorted out legally
29:29You can't just use guns to force your way in in the meantime
29:36As a means of settling that dispute
29:39If there is a legal dispute as to whether or not you are allowed in a U.S. government building
29:45And you cast that aside and say we've got guns and that's the grounds on which we're coming in
29:52What that is, is an armed assault on the U.S. government
29:57That is an armed assault on a U.S. government office
29:59That's a break in
30:01That's call the cops territory
30:03That's barricade the doors territory
30:05At that point, what's to stop the little government agency from bringing in their own armed force?
30:14And then we shoot it out
30:17That said, if there is an armed part of the U.S. government
30:26Somebody whose agents are allowed to carry weapons
30:30Who have badges, who are allowed to use physical force as part of their job
30:34It's the U.S. Marshals or anyone else
30:36If they are now working for DOJ against other parts of the government
30:41That you might think have an equal claim to their services and protection
30:45Well then, if that's the case, DOJ is something different than we thought it was
30:49Do they have an army?
30:51I mean, if the president has given his top campaign donor the ability to use physical force
30:59The ability to use the force of arms against other parts of the U.S. government
31:04We are in a different place than we thought we were
31:09Worrying possibilities were raised by that conflict at the U.S. Africa Development Foundation
31:14When that unfolded a couple of weeks ago
31:16That's why we covered it here on this show when it happened
31:19That led, last week, to a lawsuit being filed against the U.S. Marshals
31:24Democracy Forward filed this lawsuit last week asking in part why
31:28Individuals associated with DOJ have repeatedly invoked threats to engage the U.S. Marshals service
31:35When seeking questionable access to agency buildings and information
31:40So that happened at the U.S. Africa Development Foundation a couple of weeks ago
31:44Led to the lawsuit against the U.S. Marshals demanding information from the Marshals last week
31:50Well now, tonight, it has led to another physical confrontation
31:54And this time, the agency in question actually did call the cops
31:59In this case, it's something called the U.S. Institute of Peace
32:03It works on things like research in conflict zones and training future diplomats
32:08It was created by Congress during the Reagan administration
32:10It was created in 1984
32:12But it is not an official part of the U.S. government
32:14It does not act in the name of the U.S. government
32:16It is a separate institution
32:18Nevertheless, on Friday, representatives from DOJ showed up unannounced at their building
32:24And they showed up unannounced this time not with somebody claiming to be a U.S. Marshal
32:28This time they showed up with FBI agents?
32:31Wait, the FBI works for DOJ?
32:34They demanded entry into the U.S. Institute of Peace
32:38The DOJ team was reportedly met by lawyers for the Institute
32:42Who informed them, quote, of the Institute's private and independent status as a non-executive branch agency
32:48They told them they could not come in
32:50The DOJ representatives on Friday then departed
32:53That was Friday
32:56But now, today, apparently it has come to a different ending
33:01We got this alarming quote from the CEO of that independent organization tonight
33:07Quote, DOJ has broken into our building
33:12The New York Times reports, quote, the U.S. Institute for Peace
33:15Called the D.C. police on the MUSC team members
33:20In an effort to stop them from trespassing
33:22Because the Institute has control of its own building and the land it sits on
33:26But instead, the D.C. police allowed them to enter
33:31And kicked out the Institute's officials
33:37FBI agents, reportedly, and the local police
33:41Are being used by one government agency
33:44As an armed force against another part of the government
33:49Another government agency that controls its own building
33:52And that says you can't come in
33:54What's going on here?
33:56And how do we figure it out?
33:58Joining us now is somebody who has been trying to pry loose
34:01Some of the truth of what's going on here
34:03Skye Perryman is the President and CEO of Democracy Forward
34:06Which sued the U.S. Marshals Service last week
34:08Asking why DOJ was repeatedly invoking the Marshals
34:11While trying to force their way into various buildings in Washington
34:13Ms. Perryman, thanks very much for joining us, I appreciate it
34:16Thanks for having me
34:18So we've been trying to follow this
34:20As it has been unfolding
34:22It's sort of dribs and drabs
34:24And now this dramatic unfolding tonight
34:26Let me just ask if there's anything that you know about this
34:28That either contradicts what I just said
34:30Or can further advance the story
34:32Well I think what you said
34:34This concerning and five alarm
34:36I think is what you called it, as it is
34:38Is what we're hearing
34:40We're hearing concerning reports tonight
34:42From people who have been inside the Institute of Peace
34:46And this is really unfortunately
34:48A pattern
34:50It sounds unbelievable, it sounds terrifying
34:52Because it is
34:54But this is becoming a pattern
34:56We've seen this at other agencies
34:58Including the African Development Foundation
35:00Where we also have litigation pending
35:02On behalf of its Chair
35:04Who by the way is a Republican
35:06That is having to sue
35:08Because the President is unlawfully removing him
35:10And there was a confrontation
35:12And now we have this potentially armed confrontation
35:14Today, this is not America
35:16But this is what is happening in 2025
35:18The lawsuit that you've already filed
35:20Concerning the Marshal Service
35:22Are you seeking information
35:24From the Marshal Service
35:26As to whether or not their personnel
35:28Have been seconded to DOJ somehow
35:30Are you trying to find out
35:32Under what authority
35:34Whoever those people were
35:36Might have been operating when they used force
35:38To get into that property
35:40Yes, we actually
35:42Have been trying to seek that information
35:44From the government under the Freedom of Information Act
35:46Which you've talked about on your show before
35:48That entitles all Americans
35:50To have this information
35:52And the government has refused to provide it
35:54And so that's why we're now again in federal court
35:56Seeking to have disclosure
35:58Of communications, of documents
36:00That's one of many cases
36:02That we have pending right now
36:04To really understand
36:06What's happening with DOJ, with Elon Musk
36:08By the way, because no one voted
36:10For Elon Musk or for this
36:12You know, this
36:14Force
36:16I know that Democracy Forward
36:18That your organization is involved in a lot
36:20Of litigation against
36:22The President and DOJ
36:24And what they're doing to try to dismantle
36:26The government
36:28I do want to ask though
36:30If there is precedent for this type
36:32Of controversy
36:34This type of dispute
36:36I feel like when I cover things in other countries
36:38One of the things I watch for
36:40To try to understand what kind of country
36:42That is, is when physical force
36:44Is used to settle legal
36:46Or political disputes
36:48When guys with guns show up in the middle of
36:50What I would otherwise expect to be
36:52Something that was a subject of a
36:54You know, summons
36:56I don't know of anything else
36:58Like this before, I profess
37:00I might be ignorant to this part of D.C.
37:02Dramatic history, but do you
37:04Know of any precedent for something like this
37:06For one part of the government
37:08Using armed physical force against another?
37:10This is completely
37:12Unprecedented
37:14And when you talk to experts
37:16That study societies that are
37:18In decline, democracies that are in decline
37:20You find these kind of skirmishes
37:22Between different parts of the government
37:24Sometimes with force
37:26And so it's highly concerning this is happening
37:28In the United States in 2025
37:30That is why our team at Democracy Forward
37:32Of course is in court every day
37:34Challenging these actions, trying to help
37:36The American people figure out
37:38What is going on with their own government
37:40But this is quite concerning and unprecedented
37:44Skye Perriman, president and CEO
37:46Of Democracy Forward
37:48You are a very, very, very busy woman
37:50And this is a very busy
37:52Organization that you are running
37:54Thank you for taking time out tonight to help us understand this
37:56We appreciate it
37:58Thanks for having me
38:00This story on the Trump administration
38:02Defying the power of the courts
38:04Sometimes appearing to openly defy them
38:06Facing legal, non-partisan
38:08And liberal criticism
38:10Because of the move here over the weekend
38:12To go forward with deportations
38:14Despite what appeared to be
38:16Clear orders from a federal judge
38:18This clash right now
38:20And I'm going to walk you through it
38:22It does raise the prospect of the Trump administration
38:24Deliberately defying court orders
38:26Now that claim itself is part of the dispute
38:28We are going to go through this
38:30With the available facts
38:32And as always, reporting everything we know from all sides
38:34So you can make up your own mind
38:36But there are valid questions here
38:38About whether this is now
38:40And I'm going to say it plainly
38:42An intentional, autocratic effort
38:44By the Trump administration
38:46To break the law
38:48And then violate judicial orders
38:50That enforce the law they are accused of
38:52And in some cases, according to judicial findings
38:54Having been found to
38:56Have broken
38:58Now, that prospect
39:00Goes farther
39:02Than most presidencies in the modern era
39:04You could go back to Nixon
39:06For very negative examples
39:08Where we had a similar pattern
39:10In fact, it goes farther than Donald Trump's first term
39:12Which, whatever you think of the politics
39:14Or the ethics
39:16Or the rhetoric
39:18Or the leadership of that first term
39:20We did not see
39:22In the main, on a regular basis
39:24What we're seeing here
39:26Is an apparent due clash
39:28From President Trump
39:3045th, President of the United States
39:32First term
39:34So, I can measurably show you
39:36With evidence why this is
39:38Concerning, extreme, radical
39:40And potentially lawless
39:42But what we're going to do right now
39:44With our report is just go through first
39:46The facts we have on this very big controversy
39:48It began with the weekend clash
39:50Over immigration powers
39:52The administration deporting hundreds of migrants
39:54Without any apparent due process
39:56That's based on what we know
39:58That came out of a very rushed
40:00Controversial process
40:02And again, if we learn more about possible
40:04Improvements or enhancements to that
40:06We'll tell you, but right now
40:08That's what we know
40:10The administration basically alleged or said
40:12These individuals were gang members
40:14And then invoked a wartime law
40:16The Alien Enemies Act
40:18And then a judge halted those planned
40:20Deportations, I should say
40:22That plan
40:24Now, let me be very clear with you
40:26That kind of judicial order
40:28Is the final word
40:30Until and unless a higher court intervenes
40:32That's the end of it
40:34And as I said
40:36In the first term of the Trump administration
40:38That's how these things went
40:40You might remember the travel ban was halted
40:42And then it was narrowed
40:44And then parts of it went forward
40:46All of that went through the process that I'm reporting for you
40:48Where courts rule and the administration
40:50And the individuals and agents involved
40:52In these type of things follow
40:54The law
40:56And the law is what the last word
40:58Came out of the courts
41:00But now this administration
41:02Which has previously followed court orders
41:04And did so across the first term
41:06Has taken a very different tack
41:08And we have evidence to believe it is
41:10Not incompetence or a mistake
41:12Which, while a big deal, would play out differently
41:14But that it's intentional
41:16This time, despite the order
41:18These planned deportations
41:20That had supposed to have been halted
41:22Went forward and that plane took off
41:26President Trump has invoked
41:28A wartime law known as
41:30The Alien Enemies Act
41:32To deport suspected members of a Venezuelan gang
41:34A federal judge immediately blocked
41:36The president's proclamation
41:38He ordered the planes deporting Venezuelans to immediately return to America
41:40The White House is disregarding
41:42A judge's ruling on deportations
41:44Claiming, in this case, the court has no authority
41:46Setting up a potential
41:48Constitutional challenge
41:52The migrants flown from Texas to El Salvador
41:54You can see them getting off the plane
41:56Where they were taken into custody
41:58This video was shared by an administration
42:00That is seen as allied with the Trump administration
42:02The leaders of El Salvador
42:04The judge had ruled to stop what you see happen there
42:06And as for
42:08The claim by Trump's lawyers
42:10That he had war powers
42:12That could supersede the normal way
42:14Things work
42:16That was invalid because the U.S.
42:18Was not at war, the judge noted
42:20So the move violates the plain text
42:22Of the Alien Enemies Act
42:24It also exceeds the limited authority
42:26Granted to, in this case, Trump's executive branch
42:28By Congress under law
42:30The judge ordering that the migrants
42:32Be returned to the U.S.
42:34Unless the plane had landed
42:36And they had already disembarked
42:38In a foreign country
42:40So that's clear
42:42In a certain order, the judge stated
42:44Any plane containing these folks
42:46That is going to take off
42:48Words in the air
42:50Needs to be returned to the United States
42:52So what you see there
42:54Is a series of acts and events
42:56And remember
42:58For everything that comes down from the president
43:00Through border officials, through political appointees
43:02There is then the rest of the people
43:04Inside the government
43:06Who are U.S. officials who are supposed to
43:08Follow the rule of law
43:10We all know, and have been through this drill before
43:12That the rule of law in the United States
43:14Does not start and end with politicians
43:16Heaven forbid, as many people might say
43:18It is ultimately overseen
43:20Through judges that enforce
43:22Constitutional limitations
43:24So anyone, any U.S. official aware
43:26Of those limitations
43:28As ruled on by a judge
43:30Knows the last word is the judge
43:32And you shouldn't be following unlawful orders
43:34Indeed, you took an oath to the Constitution
43:36Not to any random president
43:38But maybe we are in a moment
43:40Where those things are changing
43:42Maybe people are more worried about being
43:44Ousted and fired, legally or semi-legally
43:46By Donald Trump and Elon Musk
43:48Than they are worried about a legal process
43:50Maybe Donald Trump's wanton use
43:52Of the pardon power, including for people
43:54Who violently attacked police and others
43:56Makes those folks far less worried
43:58About any potential federal charge
44:00That might come later down the road
44:02If it's not going to come out of Trump's DOJ
44:04Since he issued the order
44:06And even if it did come out of some other independent process
44:08If he's president, he's certainly willing
44:10To hand out pardons for anyone
44:12Politically loyal to him, even when it means
44:14Violence against police and others
44:16So that's the context
44:18Now I want to show more reporting on this
44:20Veteran reporter Mark Caputo
44:22With Axios filed this exclusive
44:24On how the Trump White House
44:26Deliberately ignored this judge's order
44:28That a judge found Trump basically
44:30Broke the law, and Trump defied
44:32The order on that
44:34And if you look at Axios' headline
44:36You see there it's clear
44:38And they, with Caputo's reporting
44:40Have this key detail
44:42Which would suggest the White House
44:44Knowingly ignored or violated the order
44:46Because they had an aggressive
44:48Legal theory that the flights were
44:50At that point over international waters
44:52And therefore they say the ruling didn't apply
44:54Citing two
44:56Senior officials
44:58Well that's huge
45:00Because of course
45:02The U.S. Constitution
45:04And U.S. law applies
45:06To what the president and U.S. officials
45:08Do
45:10And just because you run away from the order
45:12After, as I said, it was issued
45:14And then get to international waters
45:16Does not mean
45:18The place you came from and the color of law
45:20And the government you're acting under
45:22Become irrelevant and melt away
45:24And if you're listening to all this
45:26Watching on the news, watching it later on YouTube
45:28Listening to me on one of those
45:30Serious audio reports
45:32I promise you from the sound of my voice
45:34That if you're thinking, well
45:36I don't know how much I care about these people
45:38Who are called gang members
45:40We're all going to care a hell of a lot
45:42If the United States government under Donald Trump
45:44Could ever apply a legal theory
45:46Like this because it's logical conclusion
45:48Means
45:50If they take you off site somewhere else
45:52And can do whatever they want
45:54Well then it's open season on just about anyone
45:56Because it's not that hard
45:58To throw someone on a plane
46:00Violating a court order and getting them out to international waters
46:02Well there was also a third plane
46:04That took off later
46:06And then a White House official
46:08Disarmed from all those other explanations
46:10I just referenced
46:12Simply and brazenly claimed
46:14It doesn't matter when the flights took off
46:16Because this was a baseless legal ruling
46:18So this is pretty serious
46:20It's obviously
46:22Serious for the Constitution
46:24And if the administration is defying that
46:26It's serious
46:28For anybody impacted right now
46:30Which includes obviously the people
46:32Deported
46:34Without due process though
46:36The nation won't really know if they are
46:38Who the government says they are
46:40And just to go back to the basics
46:42That's why the United States
46:44Has a Constitution
46:46That supersedes any
46:48Single politician
46:50Why our founders established those rights
46:52And rule of law to begin with
46:54It's exactly the potential
46:56Abuse of these kind of moves
46:58And how if you start denying rights to some
47:00Even if some of them might be guilty
47:02Or might through a more
47:04Slowed down process still be found
47:06Eligible for deportation
47:08If you have evidence on them
47:10About their legal status or criminal activity etc
47:12But how those moves can then
47:14Be used against anyone
47:16If there's no check on tyrannical governments
47:18That's the whole point
47:20Of the Bill of Rights
47:22So it's serious
47:24And yet
47:26We do live in strange political times
47:28And we know that cynical bids
47:30To grind people down
47:32To exhaust everyone
47:34And normalize almost anything
47:36Are part
47:38Of this right wing process
47:40And playbook, even a violent insurrection
47:42Can be
47:44Normalized
47:46It might not even be a conscious strategy
47:48At this point, it's a kind of cynical political
47:50Instinct where anything can be
47:52Defended and then normalized
47:54And even eventually online
47:56Trolled as the term goes
47:58Which is the lens I invite you
48:00To consider for this
48:02Post here
48:04Retweeted
48:06By Marco Rubio
48:08What you're looking at is a very cynical post
48:10From a Trump
48:12Ally there
48:14About what happened
48:16With oopsie written there
48:18So America's top diplomat
48:20Marco Rubio is reposting this
48:22He's basically sharing this to everyone
48:24Oopsie too late
48:26A kind of dunking on the judge
48:28To normalize this type of legal defiance
48:30The post is from the Trump ally
48:32Who runs El Salvador
48:34And you can see too late
48:36The laughing emoji
48:38LOL
48:40How funny
48:42How unserious
48:44And I mentioned trolling
48:46For trying to get people to be so upset
48:48Over this that they missed that
48:50Yada yada yada
48:52But I want us to understand
48:54What it means when this is happening
48:56From the top diplomat in the United States
48:58A very powerful position, Secretary of State
49:00Which Marco Rubio got
49:02Because he was willing
49:04To publicly disavow
49:06Everything he's ever said about Donald Trump
49:08And foreign policy to eat his own words
49:10Because he warned
49:12About exactly the thing that he is now doing
49:14He warned about
49:16The con
49:18About taking advantage of people
49:20About just using a showmanship
49:22And as Rubio put it
49:24A conman's pack of lies
49:26To betray what America is
49:28And should be
49:30So LOL Marco Rubio
49:32Let's remember what you used to warn us about
49:34What we are dealing with here
49:36My friends
49:38Is a con artist
49:40He's taking advantage of Americans
49:42If he builds the wall
49:44The way he built Trump Towers
49:46He'll be using illegal immigrant labor to do it