Snyder: Trump deference to Musk, Putin over U.S. public opinion is 'unsustainable'

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Timothy Snyder, professor of history at Yale University, talks with Rachel Maddow about the importance of political activism and protest as Donald Trump tries to dismantle democracy in the United States, and the unsustainably un-democratic way that Trump seems to only recognize having two constituents, Elon Musk and Vladimir Putin.  For more context and news coverage of the most important stories of our day click here: https://www.msnbc.com/  » Subscribe to MSNBC: https://www.youtube.com/msnbc » Subscribe to MSNBC on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@msnbc  » Subscribe to MSNBC on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/msnbc  Download our new MSNBC app for the latest breaking news and daily headlines at a glance: https://www.msnbc.com/information/download-msnbc-app-n1241692  Follow MSNBC Show Blogs  MaddowBlog: https://www.msnbc.com/maddowblog  MSNBC delivers breaking news, in-depth analysis of political headlines, commentary and informed perspectives. Find video clips and segments from The Rachel Maddow Show, Inside with Jen Psaki, Morning Joe, The Beat, Deadline: White House, All In, The Last Word, The 11th Hour, and more.  Connect with MSNBC Online  Visit msnbc.com: https://www.msnbc.com/  Subscribe to the MSNBC Daily Newsletter: https://link.msnbc.com/join/5ck/msnbc-daily-signup  #Trump #ElonMusk #Putin

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00:00In northern Georgia, there's a town called Gainesville.

00:03It's not Gainesville, Florida.

00:05Gainesville, Georgia is small.

00:06It's home to about 47,000 people.

00:09Gainesville is also home to a regional office of the Social Security Administration,

00:14one of at least five Social Security offices in the state of Georgia

00:18that Donald Trump is trying to close, trying to get rid of.

00:22But look at this.

00:23Local residents in Gainesville, Georgia, just held as a protest a funeral for that Social Security office.

00:31They showed up in downtown Gainesville.

00:33They were all black as if it was a funeral.

00:35They held little coffins that said RIP Social Security.

00:39They also focused the bulk of their attention and their rhyming skills

00:44on their local Republican congressman, Andrew Clyde, for his support for Trump and Elon Musk.

00:50You see signs like this, Clyde lies as Social Security dies,

00:54and KKK lied doses while Social Security closes, spelling Clyde with three Ks.

01:03And yeah, this is a relatively small protest, but Gainesville, Georgia, is a relatively small town.

01:10The opposition to Trump is turning up in surprising places,

01:14in places that are doing it in their own totally independent, moving and creative ways.

01:21Joining us now is Timothy Snyder.

01:23He's the author of On Freedom and On Tyranny.

01:25He's the Richard C. Levin Professor of History at Yale University.

01:29Tim, Professor Snyder, it's really nice of you to make time to be here tonight.

01:33Of course.

01:35There's a lot that's going on that I want to talk to you about.

01:37But I wanted to ask you, now that we are this many weeks into it,

01:42what you make of the character of the opposition that we are seeing right now to Trump's presidency?

01:49I think on the one side, we have too few Democrats who are articulate in describing the world

01:57as it actually is unfolding before our eyes.

02:00But we have a few who are doing an excellent job.

02:04And on the other side, we have creative local opposition all throughout the country,

02:09probably more than we see because, unfortunately, we don't have enough local reporters to cover all of this properly.

02:15What we're going to see, I think, in months to come is those two things moving slowly to each other

02:21as these creative protests create platforms for the more adventurous and charismatic politicians.

02:27What impact does opposition like this have and where do you watch for signs of its impact?

02:37It's absolutely of the first importance because when strange things happen and nobody reacts, then everybody normalizes.

02:45But if strange things happen and a few people react or even more than a few people react,

02:50then people can say, yeah, you know, maybe I wouldn't protest myself.

02:54But there sure is a strange thing that's happening.

02:56And then when another strange thing happens, they might actually protest.

03:00So getting out there, showing your face, being with other people, being creative, making up slogans and signs,

03:06all of that is really important because it arrests people's imagination.

03:10It helps them stop and think and say, wait, this is in fact strange because other people think it's strange.

03:15And maybe next time I'll join in.

03:18One of the things that I have been sort of watching and not knowing what to do with,

03:23and I've been wanting to talk to you about it,

03:25is this very, very, very strong set of signals in public opinion polling from the American public about Russia,

03:33about disfavoring Vladimir Putin, disfavoring Russia under Putin,

03:38strongly siding with Ukraine over Russia in the Russia-Ukraine war.

03:43At so many of these protests, even in small towns and in red districts and all, unexpected places all over the country,

03:49you're seeing people with Ukraine flags and people making that a central point of the way they're protesting.

03:56You saw it in the protest against J.D. Vance.

03:58Go ski in Russia, you traitor.

04:00It seems to be really an animating thing for the American people,

04:04even though I feel like the punditocracy has been telling us for a long time

04:07that Americans don't care about anything beyond our borders.

04:10What do you make of that, and what do you think the clash ultimately will be

04:18between the American public having such a clear, strong, immutable opinion on that matter

04:24and the behavior of President Trump?

04:27Yeah, I think Ukraine-Russia is an area where a lot of Americans just show a lot of common sense.

04:31People know who invaded whom, and people have a sense that invasions are wrong,

04:36and people know that war crimes are wrong.

04:39People know that it's wrong to be tortured, to have children kidnapped,

04:43to have local leaders executed, to have all these things happen.

04:46People have righteous common sense about these things,

04:48and I think Ukraine is resonant for American protesters for a couple of reasons.

04:52The first is that it involves people going out and being courageous.

04:57It involves people taking a stand for values like freedom,

05:01and people think, well, if they can do it, then we can do it.

05:05But another thing which is important is that Ukraine is about reality.

05:08It's about something which is actually happening,

05:11whereas so much that we're being fed by this administration has to do with unreality,

05:15with stuff which is made up, with lies, big, little, and small,

05:18and I think it's refreshing for people to say, well, wait, there are people who are living in reality.

05:23As far as the disjuncture with popular opinion is concerned,

05:26I was thinking about that during your segment, and it strikes me that

05:28I can't think of any example in history where an American leader has been so entranced

05:34for such a long period by any foreigner,

05:37let alone a foreign leader who's obviously an extreme right-wing dictator

05:41carrying out a war of aggression.

05:43There is something deeply strange about that,

05:45and I think unsustainable for the reason you're putting your finger on.

05:48It's very undemocratic.

05:50Trump acts as though his only constituents were Musk and Putin,

05:55and no one else really matters,

05:57and I think with time people are going to realize that,

06:00that Trump is acting like those two men are his constituents

06:03and no one else really matters.

06:06Crucial point, and I think that's exactly right.

06:09We have seen things in history, in bad points in American history,

06:13where we've had leaders, influential people, even electeds,

06:16who have been entranced by foreign dictators,

06:19but the idea of how they would pursue that

06:24is that they would try to persuade Americans to come along with them in that affection.

06:28They would try to persuade Americans to also be entranced by that foreign dictator,

06:32and in this case, that couldn't be further from the truth.

06:36It seems to be a personal connection.

06:39Timothy Snyder, I knew you'd know,

06:42professor of history at Yale University.

06:44Thank you for being with us tonight.

06:46I'd love to have you back soon.

06:47Anytime.

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