Listen to the audio version of The Last Word With Lawrence O’Donnell from the March 18th broadcast. Guests from tonight's show include J. Michael Luttig, Judge Susan Crawford and Rep. Emilia Sykes (D-OH).
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#Trump #JusticeRoberts #judge
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NewsTranscript
00:00Now, it's time for the last word, where Ali Velshi is in for Lawrence tonight.
00:03Good evening, Ali.
00:04I'm sorry I've taken 30 seconds.
00:05Go over your time any time I'm here.
00:08You know, I love Timothy Snyder, because he takes tyranny out of the abstract, right?
00:13He makes it really real.
00:14But your interviews with him are even better.
00:16You get the best out of him.
00:18He said something, and I stopped just to write it down.
00:21When you said some of these protests are not big, and he said, when strange things happen
00:26and nobody reacts, then it normalizes it.
00:29So even if it's small, even if one or two people react, that other people see it and
00:34that you cover it the way you've been covering it, makes people think, maybe I have a voice.
00:38Maybe I've got agency.
00:39Maybe I should join.
00:40Maybe I should be part of this.
00:42It also, you know, it's persuasion, right?
00:45Yeah.
00:46I mean, demonstration is moral suasion.
00:48You are appealing to the conscience of anybody who sees you.
00:51That's right.
00:52And it may be that the clever or witty or incisive thing that you put on your sign changes
00:57somebody somewhere when they see it, and that resonance matters and people speaking
01:01up matters.
01:02And he said what it does is also draw those elected politicians, those people in politics
01:06who are courageous and charismatic.
01:09It draws them into the conversation.
01:11So there's value in it.
01:12If people are sitting there saying, I don't know, this is out of control, I don't understand
01:15it, and I don't know what I'm supposed to do, demonstrating as you do every night what
01:20people are doing is helpful.
01:21And I thank you for that.
01:22Well, thank you.
01:23I'm just just watching what's happening and trying to reflect it.
01:26Thanks, Ali.
01:28OK.
01:29At nine oh five a.m. eastern time this morning, Donald Trump logged on to social media and
01:34he wrote something so out of bounds that Chief Justice John Roberts of the Supreme Court
01:38had to issue a public rebuke.
01:41In his post, Donald Trump raged against the federal judge who blocked his summary expulsion
01:46of Venezuelan migrants, U.S. District Judge James Boasberg, writing, quote, This judge,
01:52like many of the crooked judges I am forced to appear before, should be impeached, impeached
01:57in all capitals.
01:59There it is.
02:00We've heard it from Elon Musk, now from the mouth of the president of the United States.
02:04Let's not mince words.
02:06Trump is calling on Republicans in Congress to rid him of a federal judge who ruled against
02:12him.
02:13That is what autocrats do.
02:15They take control of the judiciary and then they shape it to protect their ambitions rather
02:20than those of the people.
02:22Like the El Salvador strongman Nayib Bukele, who calls himself the world's coolest dictator.
02:27Last month, Elon Musk praised Bukele's purge of El Salvador's Supreme Court on social
02:33media, writing, quote, Unfortunately, as President Bukele eloquently articulates, there is no
02:38other option.
02:39We must impeach to save democracy, end quote.
02:44The background to Trump's post today is that MAGA caucus members in the House of Representatives
02:48have introduced articles of impeachment against three federal judges who have ruled against
02:54Trump.
02:55We'll talk about this in a minute, because impeachment of judges is a real thing and
02:59there's a real reason for it.
03:00And this isn't it.
03:02Judge Boasberg would be the fourth judge targeted if and when the Texas Republican Congressman
03:07Brandon Gill files articles of impeachment against him, as he has vowed to do.
03:12And that could be why Chief Justice Roberts felt that he had to step in and deliver a
03:16rare and extraordinary statement today, quote, For more than two centuries, it has been established
03:22that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision.
03:28The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose, end quote.
03:34To be clear, Donald Trump doesn't have the votes to wage a politically motivated purge
03:40of America's federal judiciary, which would require a two thirds vote of the Senate.
03:45But Donald Trump has a proven track record of whipping up supporters against judges who've
03:50ruled against him, both as a criminal defendant and during his presidencies.
03:55Just ask the federal judge, Tanya Chutkan, whose D.C. home was swatted when she presided
03:59over Donald Trump's federal prosecution for trying to subvert the 2020 presidential election.
04:05Or the Manhattan judge, Arthur Ngoron, whose Long Island home received a bomb threat before
04:10he issued a roughly half billion dollar civil verdict against Donald Trump for business fraud.
04:16Or MAGA turning on the Trump appointed justice, Amy Coney Barrett, who, despite being sufficiently
04:21conservative, did not appear to be sufficiently loyal to Donald Trump.
04:27But the federal courts refused to be intimidated.
04:29Today, Judge Boasberg demanded answers from the Trump administration to some very simple
04:34but specific questions about why the administration did not obey his order to stop last week's
04:40deportation flights, including, quote, one, what time did the plane take off from the
04:45United States and from where to what time did it leave U.S. airspace?
04:50Three, what time did it land in which foreign country, including if it made more than one
04:56stop?
04:57And for what time were individuals subject solely to the proclamation transferred out
05:02of U.S. custody?
05:03Finally, five, simple question, how many people were aboard solely on the basis of the proclamation?
05:11None of these are complicated questions.
05:14The judge has given the government until noon tomorrow to answer them.
05:18Judge Boasberg has scheduled an in-person hearing on the matter for Friday.
05:22Judge Boasberg has shown he's not willing to accept the Trump shuffle, the shifting
05:26answers about why the administration did not obey the judge's order on Saturday to turn
05:32planes carrying hundreds of Venezuelan migrants back to the United States.
05:38Now the green shoot here is, and look, we're all looking for green shoots if we can find
05:42them.
05:43The green shoot is that the Trump administration, I suppose, could have said, we do not obey
05:47your order.
05:48Try and stop us.
05:50That would get us into, or at least awfully close to, a constitutional crisis.
05:55But the Trump administration didn't say that.
05:58For now, at least, the Trump administration is, in fact, participating in the judicial
06:04process and the process continues.
06:07That said, here's what Trump said when asked tonight on Fox News about Chief Justice Roberts'
06:13comments.
06:14What's your reaction to the courts stepping in to make a statement here?
06:18Well, he didn't mention my name in the statement.
06:20I just saw it quickly.
06:21He didn't mention my name, but many people have called for his impeachment, the impeachment
06:25of this judge.
06:26I don't know who the judge is, but he's radical left.
06:29He was Obama appointed.
06:31And he actually said we shouldn't be able to take criminals, killers, murderers, horrible,
06:36the worst people, gang members, gang leaders, that we shouldn't be allowed to take them
06:41out of our country.
06:42Well, that's a presidential job.
06:44So first of all, that's not what the judge said.
06:46The judge didn't say we shouldn't be able to do that.
06:48And yes, it is a presidential job, but the president has to follow the law.
06:52Or at least that's what we've all been led to believe all these years.
06:56The Supreme Court did muddy the waters on that issue with its unorthodox ruling about
06:59presidential immunity last year.
07:02But as the very conservative New York Post editorial board pointed out to Elon Musk about
07:06this very case two days ago, quote, sorry, Elon, even deporting illegal gang bangers
07:12must heed the rule of law, end quote.
07:16But Judge Boasberg isn't the only federal judge doing what federal judges are supposed
07:19to do.
07:20This afternoon, another federal judge issued a major blow to the Elon Musk capture of the
07:25federal government.
07:27Judge Theodore Zhuang ordered Elon Musk and Doge to restore USAID's operations on pain
07:33of contempt, writing, quote, the court finds that the defendant's actions taken to shut
07:38down USAID on an accelerated basis, including its apparent decision to permanently close
07:44USAID headquarters without the approval of a duly appointed USAID officer, likely violated
07:50the United States Constitution in multiple ways, and that these actions harmed the public
07:55interest because they deprived the public's elected representatives in Congress of their
08:00constitutional authority to decide whether, when and how to close down an agency created
08:07in Congress, end quote.
08:09Lest Elon Musk believe that his order to restore USAID was optional, the judge continued, quote,
08:16violations of this preliminary injunction shall subject defendants and all other persons
08:23bound by this order to all applicable penalties, including contempt of court, end quote.
08:30The judge found, in essence, that everything Elon Musk and Doge has been doing has existed
08:35outside the Constitution, how a government agency is created and or closed down, how
08:41its leaders must be appointed with the advice and consent of Congress.
08:46Trump is pushing boundaries in both the clear cut ways, like obeying or disobeying a judge's
08:51order, and in less defined areas of law.
08:53In just the past few weeks, Trump invoked a wartime statute against a Venezuelan gang,
09:00even though there's no war.
09:02The Trump administration sent agents to arrest a Columbia University student, an activist
09:06against the Israel-Gaza war, a green card holder, without a warrant, and they flew him
09:12to Louisiana, where he's in custody, in search of a friendly jurisdiction to quietly
09:16expel him for his opinions that are not in line with those of the administration.
09:21What's important here are not his opinions, it is that he has been charged with no crime.
09:27Trump deported a mixed immigration status family to Mexico, which included a 10-year-old
09:31girl, an American citizen, who is fighting brain cancer, depriving her of medical care
09:36in the process.
09:38This is Trump testing what the courts will tolerate, and what the public will tolerate.
09:43That America's first criminal president would put us on the road to a constitutional
09:47crisis probably shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but it's still wrong, and the
09:51sheer velocity of Trump's recklessness with and disregard for the law must be stopped.
09:58In his first term, it was the velocity of the nonsense that was novel, from alternative
10:03facts to Sharpie gate to the wall that Mexico never built.
10:07We'd never had nonsense spread with the speed of light before, but that was still
10:11mostly about words.
10:13Now it's all action, action that must be interrupted.
10:18Out of power, Democrats can't make laws or hold official hearings.
10:22The midterms are 18 months away.
10:25That's why Democrats are holding town halls in Republican districts.
10:28The courts are doing, or at least trying hard to do, their constitutional duty.
10:32And now it's time for people to do theirs.
10:35Whatever that looks like, protest, speak up.
10:38Don't let Donald Trump reach escape velocity on the rule of law.
10:43Heading off our discussion tonight is the former United States Court of Appeals Judge
10:46J. Michael Ludig, a man who has stood up and spoken when the time called for it.
10:51Judge, it's a pleasure to have you back on the show.
10:53Thank you for being with us tonight.
10:54Thank you, Ali.
10:55It's a pleasure to be with you.
10:57I want to ask you about Justice Roberts' comments today.
11:01It's unusual for Justice Roberts to get involved in political discussions, but this talk about
11:08impeachment caused him to feel that he had to say something.
11:11Tell me a little bit more about this.
11:13Ali, the president of the United States has essentially declared war on the rule of law
11:19in America.
11:20And in the past few weeks, as you explained, the president himself has led a full frontal
11:29assault on the Constitution, the rule of law, the federal judiciary, the American justice
11:35system and the nation's legal profession.
11:38When the president of the United States wages a war on the rule of law and the federal judiciary,
11:46Ali, America is in a constitutional crisis.
11:51The constitutional role of the president is to faithfully execute the laws.
11:57Needless to say, the president is doing anything but that at the moment.
12:03Most constitutional scholars have long agreed that a constitutional crisis exists at least
12:09when the president defies a court order.
12:14That's essentially what the president is doing today and what it appears he intends to do
12:22in the future.
12:24This is very intentional, very deliberate by the president.
12:29As you know, he, the vice president and Elon Musk have been taunting the federal courts
12:34for months now, suggesting that the president would soon defy the federal courts.
12:41Elon Musk, I recall, called for an immediate wave of judicial impeachments, not just one
12:48against all judges who issue orders blocking the power of the executive branch to unilaterally
12:56overhaul the government.
12:59The president obviously believes that the federal courts are just one more of federal
13:05government institutions that has been weaponized by partisan actors, in his words.
13:14He believes apparently that he was elected to rid the nation of these weaponized partisan
13:23actors.
13:24Now, as of today, we know that all of this taunting and intimidation was toward the end
13:32of provoking this constitutional crisis today.
13:38Let me ask you, what happens when Donald Trump actually defies a federal judge or a
13:45federal court order, putting aside the impeachment thing?
13:47Impeachment exists for a reason.
13:48It's been used very rarely for judges, but it's actually about misconduct, usually.
13:52It's not about whether you agree with what a judge rules.
13:55But what happens when Donald Trump says, I'm not participating in the process, I'm not
13:59doing this, I'm not providing the documents you need, I'm not undoing whatever it is the
14:03court just told me to undo?
14:06The first thing to understand, Ali, is that no president of the United States in the country's
14:16almost 250-year history has defied a federal court order.
14:24To my knowledge, every president has followed the process for appealing a judicial order,
14:34the process that the chief justice referenced in his statement today.
14:41What happens?
14:43We don't know what happens, but if this president defies a federal court order, the country
14:56will be in a constitutional crisis.
15:01How does that crisis end?
15:04We don't know, Ali, because it's never happened before.
15:09As your viewers understand, the courts are considered the least powerful branch because
15:18they control neither the purse nor the sword, and they have no effective means to enforce
15:27their orders other than by judgments of contempt that theoretically, but theoretically only,
15:37can be enforced by the marshals of the court.
15:42As a practical matter, if the president of the United States defies even a Supreme Court
15:49order, there is nothing that the Supreme Court itself could do.
15:57This has been a very tempting thing for this president ever since his first term.
16:05As we all know, he was immensely critical of the federal and state judiciaries throughout
16:12his first term, and then of course, during the last four years when he was out of power,
16:20he was accusing the federal and state judiciaries and even individual judges of both courts
16:27of being corrupt and biased and what have you.
16:35Never before has an American president even thought to utter one single one of the words
16:42against the federal judiciary that this president has uttered every day since he came on the
16:49public scene.
16:52Judge, there are judges appointed.
16:55Judges who have opined on this administration and what it's been doing in court and outside
17:00of court who have been appointed from Ronald Reagan all the way to the current president.
17:05There does not seem to be a partisan split amongst conservative judges or liberal judges.
17:10Everybody seems to think that the president and this administration should follow the
17:15rule of law and that they don't seem to be doing that.
17:18This doesn't seem to be falling along partisan lines as far as the judiciary goes.
17:24This is not a partisan or political issue, Hallie.
17:31This is literally a question of law and of constitutional law and specifically whether
17:41the president of the United States of America must abide by the law just like everyone else.
17:50Hallie, I know personally that the federal judiciary is shaken by these recent attacks
18:00by the president of the United States, but I also know that they are unshaken in their
18:07resolve to honor their oath to the Constitution.
18:12It's the president who has wanted this war ever since his first term in office.
18:20Well, he's going to get what he wanted.
18:24Of course he cannot win this war.
18:28The point is, what on earth is a president of the United States of America doing waging
18:38war against the rule of law in America and the federal judiciary?
18:46Unless he beats an immediate retreat, Hallie, he will be a lame duck long or worse, even
18:54before his political honeymoon comes to an end.
18:59Well, from your lips to the American people's ears, Judge, good to see you as always.
19:05Thank you for being with us tonight.
19:06Judge J. Michael Ludick.
19:07All right.
19:08Quick note.
19:09Last night, The Last Word reported on excerpts of an interview between the director of national
19:13intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, and an Indian TV news network in which she said Trump was
19:18good friends with the world leader.
19:20Now, we said that world leader was Vladimir Putin, but the full interview was subsequently
19:24released and it showed that Gabbard was refused, was referring to Donald Trump and the Indian
19:29prime minister, Narendra Modi.
19:31All right.
19:32Coming up, voting is already underway in a critical state Supreme Court election in Wisconsin
19:36that could determine the future of workers' rights, of abortion and a range of other issues
19:40in that state.
19:41And Elon Musk is spending a huge amount of money to give his candidate the edge.
19:46The liberal candidate in the race, Judge Susan Crawford, joins us next.
19:50This administration has stopped all of us in our tracks.
20:00Seniors and disabled people will pay the price.
20:03My family will pay the price.
20:04Our communities will pay the price.
20:06The broader world will pay the price.
20:09How do we fix this?
20:12Most Americans worried and frustrated about the havoc that Elon Musk and Donald Trump
20:16are wreaking on this country are not going to have the chance to voice their fury at
20:20the ballot box anytime soon.
20:22But that woman you just saw at a town hall event tonight in Wisconsin doesn't have to
20:26wait too long, because across Wisconsin, early voting started today in an April 1st statewide
20:33race where Elon Musk is on the ballot, not literally, but his candidate of choice is.
20:38The race is for an open seat on the Wisconsin state Supreme Court.
20:42On the ballot is the liberal candidate, the former prosecutor and current county judge
20:46Susan Crawford, and conservative candidate Brad Schimmel, former Wisconsin state attorney
20:51general who's now also a county judge.
20:54Just three days after Inauguration Day, Musk turned his attention to this race, saying
20:59people should vote Republican.
21:01His reasoning?
21:02A lie about voter fraud in Wisconsin that I'm not going to do him the favor of repeating.
21:07Then came the cash.
21:08A lot of it.
21:10The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports spending in the Wisconsin Supreme Court race could
21:13ultimately top $100 million, doubling the record-breaking spending from the race for
21:18the high court just two years ago, the executive director of an election watchdog watchdog
21:23group said Monday.
21:25The race has featured more than $11 million in spending by Elon Musk, the billionaire
21:30and close advisor to President Donald Trump, and a seven-figure counter-initiative by Democratic
21:35party leaders dubbed the People v. Elon Musk, end quote.
21:40A column defining the stakes of this race by the Washington Post's Karen Tumulty carries
21:44this headline, why Wisconsin Supreme Court race might be the most important of 2025.
21:51In it, she writes, the race to fill a single open court seat with a 10-year term has ramifications
21:57not only for abortion rights, where the two contenders in the past expressed vastly different
22:02views, but also for how elections are conducted in what was last year's most closely contested
22:08presidential swing state.
22:10It could also determine whether two congressional districts will be redrawn and put in easier
22:15reach of Democrats, which could affect control of the U.S. House.
22:19The next court may also decide the fate of a Republican-driven 2011 law that ended collective
22:24bargaining for most Wisconsin public employee unions, end quote.
22:29Joining us now is Judge Susan Crawford, a judge for Dane County, Wisconsin, which includes
22:33the capital city, Madison.
22:35She's a candidate for the Wisconsin State Supreme Court.
22:38Judge Crawford, welcome to the show.
22:39Thank you for being with us tonight.
22:41Thanks for having me, Ali.
22:43Talk to me about this election, because there are some super-specific Wisconsin issues,
22:51and there's also this possibility that this is some kind of litmus test or a release valve
22:57after several weeks or a couple of months of a Trump administration.
23:01What's your sense from talking to voters?
23:03What do they think this is all about?
23:05Right.
23:06Well, in Wisconsin, voters understand that this is a really important election, that
23:10it is going to decide their fundamental rights and freedoms and our future as a state going
23:16forward.
23:17So issues that they care about include reproductive health care rights for women, certainly, issues
23:23about our fair elections and the right to vote.
23:27And the safety of our communities and a whole host of other issues that the Wisconsin Supreme
23:32Court could decide.
23:34It's really an important election, and as you said, I think people are looking at it
23:40more broadly as a symbol for what we can do going forward when somebody like Elon Musk
23:49is trying to wade into a state judicial race and bias it on a state Supreme Court.
23:55Yeah, and I think a lot of Americans, they saw Elon Musk and they saw what he was doing
23:59during the election, but I don't think they fully, they fully calculated that this guy
24:03was going to be doing what he did, bringing his people in and shutting down government
24:07departments and firing people.
24:09Now we've seen that.
24:11Now we've seen that.
24:12So Wisconsin voters, maybe they agree with you, maybe they agree with your opponent on
24:16various things, but it does seem that Americans are, we've seen this at these town halls coming
24:21out and saying, we didn't choose him.
24:23He's not elected to anything and when we're not looking to run our country or our states
24:28like that.
24:29Right.
24:30Well, and I think that even people who might think that he's doing some good in Washington,
24:36D.C., don't necessarily want to see him wading into a state judicial race.
24:41And I'll just point out that Tesla filed a lawsuit against the state of Wisconsin within
24:47days of the inauguration and within days of Elon Musk beginning to spend millions of
24:54dollars, mostly in attack ads against me and in paid canvassers who are going door to door
25:00in Wisconsin, saying things like or handing out leaflets and say things like support the
25:06Trump agenda.
25:07Elon Musk's interest in this race is really clear and it's not because he cares about
25:13people in the state of Wisconsin.
25:15That said, there are people in Wisconsin who want to know how your election or your
25:20opponent's election will affect them.
25:21What's your sense for people who are not looking at this from a national politics perspective?
25:26What are the most important things to the voters of Wisconsin on April 1st?
25:29Yeah, well, I think that they are democracy itself, our ability to have fair elections
25:35in Wisconsin for people to be able to exercise their right to vote.
25:39Our Wisconsin Supreme Court has decided many cases over the last few years involving elections
25:45and if we look at what happened in 2020, the Wisconsin Supreme Court, by a four to
25:51three margin, upheld the results of the presidential election in Wisconsin when Donald Trump was
25:57last on the ticket.
25:59And the Trump campaign was trying to throw out over 220,000 legally cast ballots in Wisconsin.
26:06Again, a four three margin refusing to allow him to do that.
26:11And my opponent, Brad Schimel, has said that he believes the Wisconsin Supreme Court screwed
26:16over Donald Trump when he made that decision.
26:19So democracy itself is at stake.
26:22And like I said, a lot of personal rights like women's ability to make their own decisions
26:27with their doctors when they're pregnant and people's fundamental rights to make their
26:33own personal decisions in their lives.
26:35Judge Crawford, thank you for taking time to be with us tonight.
26:37We appreciate it.
26:38It's my pleasure, Ali.
26:40Judge Susan Crawford.
26:41All right.
26:42Coming up today, Donald Trump failed to get Vladimir Putin to agree to a ceasefire in
26:45Ukraine and Benjamin Netanyahu is breaking the ceasefire in Gaza.
26:48Ben Rhodes joins us next.
26:53Today, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin spoke for more than two hours by phone as Trump
27:00tried to get the Russian dictator to agree to a 30 day ceasefire in Ukraine.
27:04A White House readout of the conversation said, quote, The leaders agreed that the movement
27:08to peace will begin with an energy and infrastructure ceasefire, as well as technical negotiations
27:15on implementation of a maritime ceasefire in the Black Sea, full ceasefire and permanent
27:20peace.
27:21End quote.
27:22It's a lot of talk.
27:24The statement echoes the Kremlin, which said after the call that Putin had agreed on Russia
27:27refraining from bombing Ukraine's energy plants for the next month.
27:31The New York Times reports, quote, The Kremlin said that Putin told Trump that his key condition
27:35to end the conflict altogether was a complete cessation of foreign military and intelligence
27:41assistance to Ukraine.
27:43End quote.
27:44And then the Wall Street Journal's chief foreign affairs correspondent reported, quote,
27:49And not even an hour later, a Russian guided bomb takes out the power in the Ukrainian
27:54city of Slovyansk.
27:56End quote.
27:58Donald Trump's failure to convince Vladimir Putin to agree to a temporary ceasefire comes
28:02after Israel broke the U.S. brokered ceasefire in Gaza.
28:06Yesterday, Netanyahu launched a fresh round of missile strikes on the Gaza Strip, killing
28:11more than 400 people, according to Gaza's health ministry.
28:15New York Times reports Netanyahu said in an address to the Israeli people, quote, This
28:19is just the beginning.
28:21End quote.
28:22Joining us now, Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to President Obama
28:25and an MSNBC political analyst.
28:27Ben, back when you were on the National Security Council, I imagine you were not encouraging
28:32people to make statements like on day one, I'm going to get a make peace between Ukraine
28:36and Russia because it's complicated.
28:37Even if your intent is good and your your strategy is fantastic, that's complicated.
28:41Donald Trump in two hours couldn't even get an agreement to a 30 day ceasefire or to not
28:47hit energy and infrastructure.
28:50And then Russia targeted Ukrainian energy and infrastructure.
28:54This is not going anywhere good right now.
28:56No.
28:58And what he's also doing is President Trump is walking right into the negotiating trap
29:02that Vladimir Putin always tries to set, Ali.
29:06I've been on two hour phone calls that President Obama had with him.
29:10He tries to take the beginning of the negotiation as the moment in which he gets everything
29:14he wants.
29:15And in this case, he wants the cessation of any foreign military assistance or intelligence
29:20support to Ukraine, which essentially cripples their ability to defend themselves.
29:24He doesn't want any troops there from Europe as part of a peacekeeping force.
29:28He wants the full recognition of Russian territory that they occupy is now a part of Russia.
29:32He wants Ukraine to be demilitarized in some sense.
29:35He wants all these different things.
29:37And Donald Trump, after humiliating Zelensky in the Oval Office and essentially forcing
29:43this ceasefire down the throats of the Ukrainians, treats this phone call some success when he
29:49got nothing.
29:50Right.
29:51I mean, he let Zelensky have it just for describing reality.
29:56And then when Putin says no to him on just about everything, and let's be clear, saying
30:00that they're not going to hit energy, even though they now are, the time that they hit
30:03energy is in the fall heading into the winter, Ali.
30:06And by the way, they've knocked out those grids.
30:08It's not easy to bring them back on, especially now that USAID, which was doing some of that
30:12work, doesn't exist anymore.
30:14So he's treating it as some positive development when, in fact, Putin just told him, look,
30:18unless you take my dictation of the terms of surrender to Ukraine, there is no deal.
30:22Yeah.
30:23And the terms that Putin wants would be the end for Ukraine.
30:26I mean, if Putin got what Putin said that he told Donald Trump he wanted, no intelligence
30:33assistance, no military assistance and keeping Russian territory in Ukraine, frankly, not
30:37sure why Russia wouldn't take whatever else, what other territory they wanted in Ukraine
30:41or neighboring countries.
30:43That's not the basis for a negotiation.
30:47That's precisely the point that Zelensky and the Ukrainian government keep making.
30:50If we have no security guarantees, if we have no ongoing military support from the West,
30:55we have no intelligence support, and the perception is we're this demilitarized, rump state next
31:00to Russia that just got everything they wanted, why wouldn't the Russians come back in three
31:05years or five years to take just some more Ukrainian territory or try to completely control
31:09Ukrainian politics from the Kremlin?
31:12That's clearly what Vladimir Putin wants.
31:15It's no secret to anybody that that's his desire, is to either completely conquer or
31:19control Ukraine.
31:21And Trump is treating this like a peace negotiation, when in fact it's just Putin trying to achieve
31:26his war aims through the U.S. president.
31:28Let's talk about Israel-Gaza for a second.
31:29There's a lot going on in Israel.
31:33It seems like Netanyahu is sort of feeling newly strong and empowered in things that
31:39are going on in Israeli politics.
31:41But there's also been, I think we expected hiccups with phase two of the ceasefire hostage
31:48deal.
31:49But this is much more than a hiccup.
31:50What happened yesterday?
31:51No, that's right.
31:52And look, the main gap is they could agree to some kind of hostage exchange for hostages
31:58for prisoners exchange in phase one.
32:00But phase two was the phase that was really about whether or not the war was actually
32:04going to end, which is something that the Israeli right has never wanted to agree to.
32:08They don't believe that Hamas should exist in any way, shape or form inside of Gaza.
32:13And some of them even called for annexation of parts of Gaza.
32:16And so you always had this gap between Hamas that wanted to end the war and Israel that
32:22doesn't want to end the war as long as Hamas is still in Gaza.
32:26And the step that was taken last night was not like a minor violation, it was a declaration
32:30of the resumption of the war, large scale bombing in the middle of the night, statements
32:35from the Israeli government suggesting this is only the beginning.
32:38You also have to remember, Ali, that Israeli politics, Bibi Netanyahu has had some rough
32:42waters recently.
32:43He fired the head of Shin Bet, the police service there because of investigations he
32:47didn't like.
32:48They've had trouble passing a budget.
32:50When he resumes the conflict like this, he usually fortifies the right wing of the coalition
32:56that he's running.
32:57And and that's also part of the dynamic here.
32:59Yeah.
33:00And that's the that's the important thing to keep in mind that there's a lot going on
33:02here.
33:03That's not just the obvious stuff that we see.
33:04Ben, always good to see you.
33:05Thank you for joining us.
33:06Ben Rhodes, as a former deputy national security adviser in the Obama administration, are coming
33:11up.
33:12New town hall video tonight of a Republican lawmaker being confronted by constituents
33:15who are angry about Elon Musk.
33:17We'll show that to you next.
33:24What makes you think that that has no conflict of interest, that he has no conflict of interest?
33:29He get what do you think he would cut that before he would cut our Medicare or our Social
33:35Security or our jobs?
33:40I support Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency.
33:53Those are booze from tonight in Nebraska and Republican Congressman Mike Flood's district,
33:58which is a deep, deep, deep red district, 58 days into the second Trump presidency.
34:04And voters are furious about Elon Musk.
34:07And they're scared about their Social Security benefits.
34:10What are your plans to cut Social Security?
34:14I want to be very this is a very easy question for me to answer.
34:17So as you know, we are in the process of reconciliation, budget reconciliation.
34:24Under the under the federal law, any changes to Social Security are not on the table.
34:31And I will not cut your Social Security.
34:34It is a promise.
34:37I will not cut your Social Security.
34:39Listen to what else this Republican lawmaker supports.
34:43I support Ukraine.
34:49I do not feel like Ukraine should have to give up any land to Russia.
34:58I have tremendous respect for judicial officers and for this country to work.
35:03We need to respect judges.
35:05OK, so the Republican Mike Flood is for protecting Social Security from Elon Musk.
35:11He's for Ukraine not having to give up any of its land to its invader, and he's for respecting
35:15judges.
35:16This guy, a Democrat, because this is the thing Republican lawmakers say all this stuff
35:21in public to voters, and then they vote in lockstep with Donald Trump, who does the opposite.
35:27But the fact that a Republican in Nebraska, in a Republican plus nine district, can't
35:33stand behind Trump's policies publicly is proof that his policies are not popular and
35:38Republicans know it.
35:40On Thursday, New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is joining Vermont Senator Bernie
35:45Sanders for his fighting oligarchy where we go from here tour at stops in Nevada and Arizona.
35:52More than 2000 people in Altoona, Wisconsin, came out Altoona, Wisconsin, came out to hear
35:56Senator Sanders last week.
35:58Our next guest, Ohio Congresswoman Amelia Sykes, held a town hall in Akron, Ohio today
36:03where just a few hours earlier, veterans and federal workers gathered outside of a Veterans
36:07Affairs clinic to protest Elon Musk and Donald Trump's cuts to the federal workforce.
36:13Joining us now is that Democratic Congresswoman Amelia Sykes.
36:15She represents Ohio's 13th congressional district.
36:19Congresswoman Sykes, good to see you again.
36:20Thank you for being on the show tonight.
36:23Earlier, I was talking to Rachel about this.
36:26Some of these protests and town halls and rallies are big and some of them are small,
36:31but people are interested.
36:33People are out there.
36:34They are confronting their members of Congress.
36:37They are asking for answers and they are worried.
36:41They are absolutely worried and they are showing up in ways that we didn't expect, but we're
36:47glad that they are showing up.
36:48I am so proud of my community today.
36:52Nearly 200 people showed up at a Veterans Affairs clinic, a VA clinic, where they were
36:58outraged at the nearly 83,000 jobs that they want to cut.
37:03We later hosted a town hall in the district.
37:07We had over 700 RSVPs, a very energized and activated group of people who want to protect
37:14our democracy, save Medicaid, protect Social Security and Medicare, and ensure that moving
37:19forward, we are the country that we can be so very proud of.
37:23What should people do?
37:24I mean, clearly they're doing some of it, right?
37:26They're going out and they're confronting their elected officials, which is what they
37:30should do.
37:31In some cases, they are protesting.
37:32What's the answer?
37:33Because for most people, there is not an opportunity to vote for a member of Congress for 18 more
37:39months.
37:40In places like Virginia, there are elections.
37:41In Wisconsin, there's a state judicial election.
37:43But what do you tell people who are worried to do?
37:46Well, a few things.
37:48There are elections every year.
37:49There are local elections, and those are important things to be a part of because who is in these
37:54positions really does matter to your everyday life just as much as your president and your
38:00members of Congress.
38:01But I still share with the people at the town hall that this is a group project, and we
38:05all have to be involved.
38:06And we can't get tired after a couple of months and say, well, somebody else is going to have
38:10to do it.
38:11It's going to take every last one of us to protect our democracy, protect Medicaid, protect
38:15Social Security and Medicare, and we cannot sit this one out.
38:19So as our leader often says, we're working through Congress, through the courts, and
38:24most importantly, through our community, because all of the power lies within the people.
38:28Our government is of, by, and for the people.
38:31They have the power.
38:32And just reminding each of our constituents in our communities, they are powerful, their
38:36voices are powerful, and that we are going to get through this together.
38:40But we're going to have to do it continuously every single day and nonstop.
38:44A number of Republicans are not doing these town hall meetings, or they're getting booed
38:48when they do the town hall meetings, and partially because they're saying things that are unpalatable.
38:52But you just heard this congressman from Nebraska, a colleague of yours, he was actually saying
38:57things that if he believes to be true, he's not voting for in Congress.
39:02He's saying we should respect the judiciary, and yet we have an administration that is
39:07thumbing its nose at the judiciary as we speak.
39:10He's saying he believes in protecting Ukraine, and yet we have an administration that is
39:14not supporting Ukraine.
39:16He's saying he's interested in protecting people's entitlements, and yet we have a budget
39:22plan that is going to trim more than a trillion dollars from people's money.
39:28What do you do about this stuff?
39:31You're absolutely right.
39:32They will stand up.
39:34They have stood up and said things like they're not planning to cut Medicaid, but we know
39:38that the House budget resolution cuts $880 billion out of the Energy and Commerce Committee,
39:45which means there must be cuts to Medicaid.
39:48They're telling us one thing and doing another, and that's where we all come in.
39:52We have to hold these folks accountable.
39:55They often tell us people aren't telling us that they don't like what we're doing.
39:59Well, this is a time to speak up and make sure that it's very clear.
40:03That's why these rallies, these protests are so important, because they are not going to
40:07be able to ignore these communities, our communities, for too much longer, and we're
40:11not going to allow them to gut Medicaid, gut the VA, gut Social Security, gut Medicare,
40:18knowing that people rely on it.
40:19They are going to have to come before the voters in 18 months, as you said, and their
40:25votes are going to be the only thing that they have next to them.
40:28It's showing time and time again they are not voting with the American people, and they
40:32will pay for this at the ballot box.
40:34Who are you hearing from?
40:35What are you hearing, I guess, from people who voted for Donald Trump in Ohio?
40:41Are they getting what they thought they were getting?
40:44My district is one of the most evenly divided districts in the entire country.
40:48About 100 votes separated Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris.
40:52I hear a lot of people saying, stop this immediately.
40:56I hear a lot of people saying, continue on, support all of these activities, but I hear
41:02a lot more folks saying, we voted for this, but this is not exactly what we thought we
41:07were getting.
41:08Can you slow it down?
41:10Can you make sure that they're protecting our Social Security?
41:13Can you make sure they're protecting our Medicaid?
41:15And I tell them, absolutely, that is what I'm going to do no matter what, because it's
41:18important to this community, it's important to this country, but they also have to be
41:23partners in this democracy and not elect people who have told us, as Donald Trump has told
41:28us for the last four years, he's cutting all of these programs so he can give money,
41:33tax giveaways to the wealthiest 1% in this country so they can buy yachts and go on four-week
41:38vacations.
41:39$4.2 trillion.
41:40He did tell us he was going to do that.
41:43Congresswoman, great to see you.
41:44Thank you for being with us.
41:45Amelia Sykes is a Congresswoman from Ohio.