Welcome to another episode of The Veterinary Roundtable! In this episode, the ladies discuss tips on working with reactive dogs, a gnarly FHO case, how to support your partner through vet school, and more!
Do you have a question or inquiry for The Veterinary Roundtable? Send us a text from the link above, ask us on any social media platform, or email theveterinaryroundtable@gmail.com!
Episodes of The Veterinary Roundtable are on all podcast services along with video form on YouTube!
➡️ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theveterinaryroundtable/
➡️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@UCxHaY9aGfykLTvoAM0kWKmw
➡️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ajjhDqmyFa8aEWJKCPjqq
➡️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-veterinary-roundtable/id1596339883
TIMESTAMPS
Intro 00:00
Pits And Peaks 03:13
Send Us Your Craziest Vet Med Stories For A New Segment 10:41
Three Bovine Veterinarians Infected With H5N1 11:48
Advice For Lack Of Clinical Experience 16:21
Scholarship Opportunities For Graduate School (@Diana) 18:36
Case Collections 21:55
Our Opinion On Declawing Cats (@Mack) 37:16
Outro 46:33
#veterinarian #vetmed #cats
Do you have a question or inquiry for The Veterinary Roundtable? Send us a text from the link above, ask us on any social media platform, or email theveterinaryroundtable@gmail.com!
Episodes of The Veterinary Roundtable are on all podcast services along with video form on YouTube!
➡️ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theveterinaryroundtable/
➡️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@UCxHaY9aGfykLTvoAM0kWKmw
➡️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ajjhDqmyFa8aEWJKCPjqq
➡️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-veterinary-roundtable/id1596339883
TIMESTAMPS
Intro 00:00
Pits And Peaks 03:13
Send Us Your Craziest Vet Med Stories For A New Segment 10:41
Three Bovine Veterinarians Infected With H5N1 11:48
Advice For Lack Of Clinical Experience 16:21
Scholarship Opportunities For Graduate School (@Diana) 18:36
Case Collections 21:55
Our Opinion On Declawing Cats (@Mack) 37:16
Outro 46:33
#veterinarian #vetmed #cats
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00I will definitely create controversy with my opinion.
00:03Whenever people ask me about it, I say we, I encourage you and I will give you all the
00:08information of all the other options first. We don't see many problems in recovery. I
00:13personally like to just suture no matter what size it is. I just feel like it's more secure.
00:18If the owner's going to be mad at the cat all the time because they're being destructive,
00:23then how is that good for the relationship between the, you know,
00:26is the cat going to get relinquished? Is something else going to happen?
00:30Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Veterinary Roundtable,
00:35the podcast where we answer your veterinary related questions while having some fun along
00:38the way. If you enjoyed today's episode or a previous episode, be sure to leave us a review
00:42on your podcast provider of choice. And if you have any feedback to offer to improve the Veterinary
00:46Roundtable, let us know. Improved. Improved. Okay. Hammer home the reviews. Get that hammer.
00:53Get that hammer. Nobody can hear it. Tap it on your noggin. Oh Jesus. Okay.
00:59Somebody's going to hear that. Hopefully if you were riding in your car, it wasn't like,
01:04so sorry. Okay. Um, womp, womp. Uh, looks like we're still at one 22 on Apple podcast.
01:11That's sad. I'm really hyped. I'm really liking Spotify. Yeah.
01:18318 last time we were at 316. So let's just set the new goals. 500 on Spotify.
01:24Yeah, we'll get there.
01:29Because it's too soon and we won't have any
01:41Devon goes skydiving and we watch. All right. Well, we'll come up with a goal and then we'll
01:44come up with a whatever, like we did last time for Spotify. Absolutely. And we'll pre
01:49film it. Maybe by that time it'll be summer and we can do the dunk tank.
01:52Yeah. I think the dunk tank would be hilarious. I think it'd be so much fun. Yeah. Where would
01:56we go? You guys would be jealous. I got a good arm. I'll get you down there.
02:03If we set it up at the pet store outside, like outside PetSmart or something to just throw a
02:09ball. You don't even have to know who the person is. Just fun to dunk somebody. I know. All right.
02:17Anyway, check out our social channels, Instagram, and TikTok at the Veterinary Roundtable. You can
02:22also watch our video podcast on YouTube at the Veterinary Roundtable. And you can watch the video
02:27version on Spotify now, too. So that's exciting. Cool. Another reason to love Spotify more than
02:32Apple. Yeah. We'll just switch teams. We're going over to Spotify. I've been on Spotify.
02:39I started listening to podcasts on Spotify and I like it better. Jacob only uses Spotify now.
02:43I don't have Spotify. I use Apple. I use Spotify. Yeah, I use Apple. Because I don't pay for it.
02:47Yeah, I'm all for it. All right. I'm Dr. Emily King. I'm Courtney Allen. I'm Devin Fortune.
02:54I'm Dr. Ashlyn Dugwall. And this is the Veterinary Roundtable. I didn't realize you had to say it
03:02every time. Yes. You got to do less so you never know. They might not know what they're actually
03:07listening to. I said it at the first sentence, but okay. I'll step it up. Pits and Peaks. Pits
03:14and Peaks. Oh, dear. I'm going to go because my pit is my peak. Okay. I went on vacation and then
03:22I had to leave. Yeah. And you're like 10 shades darker. Not even 10. Like 11. Where'd you go?
03:28Tell the people. I went to visit my mom in basically Naples, Florida area. And they were
03:35having warmer than normal weather. So it was like 83. It was beautiful. It was sunny. Were you so
03:42much happier? It's the serotonin flowing. Yes. Absolutely. And I took the older boys because it
03:48was an over 18 trip and two of their girlfriends. And so that was a blast. Yeah. And the boys
03:54actually commented. Holden actually commented after coming back from breakfast. Everyone seems
03:59so much happier here. Seasonal depression is a real thing. Yeah. It really is. They even recognized
04:07it. And they're like, we are not going to live in Indiana. And I was like, that's fine. Just tell me
04:11where you're going to live. So I know. Yeah. So you can have like a little house next. Yes, exactly.
04:17But it was cool. It was great. And like I said, the weather was great. And I eat fish and
04:22yum. Good food. And I'm happy for you. Got away. But your tan is my pit. Okay. I'm kidding. It's
04:29not my actual pit, but it's impressive. Listen, my grandfather was Italian. And so as soon as I
04:35get in the sun, I just turn it on a color. Yeah, that's nice. That's nice. I only have one child
04:39that inherited that gene. You were in Florida for how long? A week? Four days. That's not even
04:46a week. Insane. My parents are in Sarasota right now, and they said the red tide is really bad.
04:52Yeah. See, it was further north. So there were no advisories. It's like algae. Algae bloom. That
04:57kills fish. And then it makes it smell. My mom said her respiratory stuff was flaring because
05:01it was so bad. Yeah, because it causes like irritants. It's an inhalant. Irritant. Whatever.
05:06And so like then it makes you cough. That's so sad. And a couple years ago when we were visiting
05:09my mom, the red tide was really bad after the first hurricane that had hit not too long ago.
05:13And there were so much dead fish and it smelled horrible. And then every time you went outside
05:20and you stayed out there for any extended period of time, you coughed. Yeah. Huh. Wow. It affects
05:24fish and people. Yeah. It was a respiratory irritant. But yeah, Bonita Springs, there was
05:29no advisories. She sounds like she has pneumonia or bronchitis because it was affecting her so
05:32much. It was like so bad. Oh my gosh. So I was really happy that it was not by us because that's
05:39all we do when we're there is just outside. We're outside. Oh yeah. Yep. So nice. Well,
05:44glad you had a good time. Yeah. Sorry you're back. Yes. My pit is also my peak. Oh, okay. Yes.
05:52Doing one of your things. My sister's little, little, my little sister's baby shower is this
05:57weekend, but I'm hosting it. Oh, yes. So it's like, I don't mind because we have the space that
06:05works well, but it's just the preparation and decoration, finding chairs, finding tables.
06:12Nobody has chairs or tables anymore except Courtney's parents. Thank God. So yeah. So
06:18it's just the clean. And then you want your thing to look clean and then you got to clean your house
06:22because you don't have a bathroom in the barn and Charles, I don't know. Dang it, Charles. I know
06:28that corner back. You guys know I'm talking about that little corner where the bathroom will be.
06:33Well, he finally put up some drywall on one side of it, so it doesn't look hideous, but then we got
06:39a black curtain. So it literally looks like a secret little, I said it's jokingly for the
06:44waitstaff where they keep all the dishes and drinks and stuff, but we're not that fancy.
06:52Well, my pit and peak are not the same thing. I'll start with my pit. I'm just going to keep
06:58it brief cause I don't want to get political, but I don't know if you guys have seen on the news,
07:02all this stuff about them firing the national park service workers. They fired 3,500 and a lot
07:10of people are scared that the parks are going to not be treated as nicely as they have been and
07:15that they're going to be destroyed. And it's very scary cause I want to visit all of them and I feel
07:19like I'm not going to get that chance. Yeah. Peak, I'm moving into my apartment this Friday.
07:26So I have the rest of this week off and I'm going to pack and move.
07:30That's going to be so exciting. It's very exciting. It's probably going to be so weird at
07:33first. You'll forget and start driving to the wrong house. So I'm really excited. That's so
07:39exciting. What a big adventure. It's been a long time coming. Can't wait for the house warming
07:44party. Yes, absolutely. Courtney's not invited though. We went over this this morning. Even
07:50though I came up with a great idea for you. What did you do with that? I said you're not invited
07:53for. I don't even remember. My idea was that everybody for the house warming, like a house
07:59warming gift, you have to bring her a board game. Yeah, it was great. We're talking about
08:01how much we love games. I was saying I need board games. And then you said that. And then you did
08:10something mean like five minutes later. I'm not invited. I don't remember what it was. I also
08:16love anything but a cup theme. Oh, yes. I love those parties. We did that at your house. That
08:22was a blast. Yeah, that was the weekend. We were going to Cleveland to get engaged. Yeah. And
08:26everybody almost told me because we drink a lot. Yes. And there was also one which wouldn't apply,
08:31I guess, to this, but it was for somebody's birthday party. But it was anything but birthday
08:36party like celebrate anything but birthday. So people came in like they're going to New Year's
08:41or just like stuff like that. I know. I thought that was a cute idea. That's a very cute idea.
08:46Yeah. Okay, my pit is let's just talk about some more of the flu. No, I'm just I'm over it. It's
08:53everybody's sick. You haven't even gotten sick. I know. But like it after after. Yeah, I don't
08:59think I had the flu. But like, I just I don't know. Everybody's sick. So then nobody's at work.
09:04And then it gets really stressful because nobody's there. It is. Yeah. So I just want everybody to
09:10be well. Yeah. My I think employees should when you hire them come with like a pack of like,
09:18necessary things. So like Zycam. Oh, my God. Wow. A bottle of Zycam. And then like, you know,
09:27element or IV packs, you know, whatever. Or like, you know, like they have like,
09:32they get I don't know, some kind of care package. That is all the stuff you need
09:35to be able to survive. Not a pen and a notebook. Exactly. All these other things. Yeah. No,
09:43that's okay. That's a that's a very good idea. We should get on that. Yeah. I'll tell Terry.
09:48My peak was this past weekend. I got to hang out with my favorite little toddler named Helen.
09:55It's so fun to be around. And it's just fun watching her personality come out. Yes. So we
10:00had a really good time with her. That's we also turned on Courtney's video camera and facing
10:05towards Helen just gave it to her. Oh, my God. That's my camera. Helen are hilarious. Yeah.
10:11They are gold. I will never delete them off my phone. And she's still stuffy from recovering.
10:16And so it's like Darth Vader. It literally is Darth Vader. It's like Helen ASMR. And like at
10:23one point, we told her to run. So it's like her little footsteps in her head. But it's just here.
10:30She's just so fun. And now she gives us about Jake and Courtney. Yeah, great.
10:35She's just so fun. I just love this. She's pretty cool. Yeah, very cute. Very cute.
10:40Okay. Oh, new announcement. She's got it. I'm gonna do it. Okay, go. Here we go.
10:47And now it's a new segment that we got to do the news thing.
10:53Okay, go for it. You also did that during the live show, which was hilarious. But I
10:57think we're all hyped up that we're just like, she did that. But we just kind of bypassed it.
11:07Anyways, so we're gonna have a new segment. It's called tales from the trenches.
11:11Tales from the trenches. Tales from the trenches. Okay, get ready. Okay, so this is where we want
11:19the listeners to send in their most ridiculous, funny, unhinged stories that we can read on the
11:25podcast. I can't wait for this. I'm so excited. They can send their stories to the veterinary
11:30roundtable at gmail.com. Very exciting. This includes like what owners obviously what owners
11:36have done or said as well. Some of those are friends in the clinic. Oh, yeah, just yeah,
11:41it's gonna be so great. I cannot wait. I'm so excited to deliver. That'll be good. Good stuff.
11:46Yep. Okay. Oh boy. Shall we again? Oh my god. Talk about the flu. Veterinary topics three
11:54bovine vets unknowingly infected with H5N1. Oh dear. So that's what you get for working with
12:00the cows. Yeah. That's why nobody wants to work with cows. What I gathered from the article is
12:05that they just randomly selected like 150 vets or something and tested them for the flu. None of
12:12them had symptoms. And then three that tested positive for the flu. And then they circled back
12:18to PPE. And it turns out they were just like wearing gloves or something. And they recommended
12:23wearing eye goggles and like a mask. And what do you think the probability of the rural veterinarians
12:31wearing tons of PPE? Zero. Yeah, they do stuff with their hands. They go into the guts and
12:38things. No, I'm just kidding. Not the guts. But yeah. Not much. I think especially, you know,
12:44it's interesting because they didn't have symptoms. Yeah. I wish. So it's encouraging.
12:50I'm going to look at it half full. It's great. If you come into contact, you'll be just fine.
12:54You'll be fine. It's probably something we're missing, right? Like guys, it's so important.
12:59Yeah. Maybe you're affected later. Well, it was even we were saying it was weird. Like two of them
13:05were not exposed to any cows that were positive. And then the other one was in a state where there
13:11was no positive cases. So interesting. Are they worried about these veterinarians and exposing
13:17other people? Probably. Do we know? Oh, yeah. I know. Can it be human to human or is it like
13:25you wonder if I have bovine flu right now or avian flu or God knows what other have you tested?
13:31Didn't you prefer? They said they didn't have time to test me, but I was what image of flu.
13:35I think you should, too. They didn't test you, but they gave you Tamiflu. They straight up said
13:41that they didn't have time to test me. And they still gave you Tamiflu. Oh, interesting.
13:48Scandalous. Scandalous. It was on day four of symptoms, though. So Tamiflu probably wouldn't
13:54have had any. No. Well, it didn't have much of an effect, obviously. So did they ask if you
13:59wanted Tamiflu or they just said we're going to give me the option. And I was like, well,
14:03every day I thought that I would wake up the next day feeling better. And I haven't. So please give
14:07me the meds. Yeah. I guess when you're at that level, you have to do whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You
14:12have it as a chance. Yeah. I did not get actually tested for the flu because I was like 10 a.m.
14:18my appointment. He said that I was the fourth person and all three people before me tested
14:24positive. And I looked exactly like they did. And they were running like a duck quacks,
14:29like they were running behind. So they didn't test me. That's crazy. I took my battles and
14:34gave me some meds. Did they listen to you? Because I always find that they listen to me. I took my
14:38blood pressure and then I took my history. But, you know, there's only a time for. Yeah. Okay.
14:45Anyway. Okay. Interesting. So there's that. I don't feel hopeful about that.
14:51I don't feel good about that. I'm not better. I'm not either. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
14:58Okay. Hmm. Okay. Are we still on the flu topic or just it is the five seconds to
15:05swab your nose? I didn't really understand it, but I felt like death. So I wasn't gonna be like,
15:11please. Yeah. Well, although there was one time it was a couple of years ago,
15:16I had the flu. I don't remember if it was A or B. I don't remember now. Anyway, I went as soon
15:21as I started feeling like crap and they swabbed me and I was negative. And then I went back like
15:26two or three days later and I was like, I'm not feeling better at all. They re swabbed me and I
15:31was positive. So that was also interesting, but they swabbed me. I'm on amoxicillin and I'm finally
15:38noticing some progress. So, okay, good. Hopefully I don't have to go back to the doctor.
15:42Maybe you had RSV. I heard from the pediatrician. Or there's like norovirus or whatever.
15:46I thought norovirus was GI. Yeah. That's all GI stuff. Like out both ends. Yeah. Yeah. It's bad.
15:51And there's a flare up of it going around the world right now. I do not want that. I do not
15:55want that. I don't either. Nope. Now we're gonna get it. I'll take the flu over that.
15:59I don't know. That's why you need to drink whiskey every night and then it kills everything. Yeah.
16:03The things in your stomach. That's not true. I have no idea if that's true or not, but.
16:06And Zycam. Yeah. Wash it down with whiskey. After 15 minutes though. You have to wait 15 minutes.
16:13Okay. Oh my God. What are you gonna say? Okay. Anyways. Are you gonna say something? I don't
16:17think so. Okay. Inquiries. Okay. My microphone's bothering me. Okay. New listener. So apologies
16:24if you've already covered this. I'm a first year DVM student and I'm finding one of the most
16:28difficult parts of vet school is the lack of clinical experience during the year. I find it
16:32really difficult learning all this clinical directly applicable material, but not getting
16:37to practice yet. Do y'all have any advice about pushing through that lack of clinicals, especially
16:41during the lecture heavy years of the curriculum? Thanks. From anonymous. Okay. Put your name on
16:48those. I don't know how they would fit it in. There's so much book material to cover that I
16:54don't know realistically if it's possible during the first couple years, but there are some schools
16:59that do the first two years and then three and four is more clinical in there. I mean, we have
17:05labs. We did labs that we practice stuff where we learned about opto. So we'd have an opto lab and
17:13practice on actual patients and, you know, do that type of stuff. So we had labs. It was called,
17:19like we did husbandry. We didn't. I think the first thing is just learn what's normal,
17:26which you can do through your at home, your lecture heavy series in the curriculum. And
17:33if you don't have a dog or a cat, get a dog or a cat. I know that sounds crazy, but
17:38then you can look at your animal or even get like a part time job, which was really helpful a lot,
17:43but get a job at a clinic or a shelter or a store and volunteer. I think the first two years,
17:50if you can focus on learning processes and normals. Yeah. Then you're not going to.
17:55It feels like you're not going to be able to apply the information, but because it stacks. Yes.
18:02You're going to think you forgot the information, but you would not have learned
18:05the next set of information without having known the first set of information. Yeah. So the fact
18:09that, you know, the next information would suggest, you know, the first you'll be fine.
18:13It's more important to learn, actually learn the material and integrate it into your brain before
18:21you apply it, because learning it and applying it are two different steps. Like applying is a
18:25whole new thing you have to figure out how to do. So. Yeah. So just be patient. It's going to work
18:29out. Yeah. Thanks for finding us, new listener. Yes. Good luck in school. Don't leave. Okay.
18:36Next one. Hey, all. My name is Diana. I like the princess. I'm a junior in a tiny high school in
18:41northern Michigan. Seriously, there is 11 people in my class. Three of us are girls. Okay. Well,
18:46the odds are good. The odds are good. The men aren't. The men are thinking, damn, there's only
18:51three women in this class. I'm kind of surprised that women are the minority. Yeah. Well, I guess
18:57it's a high school. And because I'm in such a rural area, there aren't many scholarship
19:02opportunities that aren't for trades. I've been seriously thinking about veterinary science for
19:07three years, more specifically LVT. Are there any scholarship opportunities for grad school
19:11et cetera that are nationwide and willing to help a little old country girl in need? I'm
19:16seriously worried about the money aspects of debt and loans. So if y'all could help me or let me
19:21know if there are any that you are aware of, that'd be so great. Just wanted to mention how
19:26much I love your podcast. I listen as I work about five to six days a week. Thanks in advance from
19:31Diana. Cool message. That's crazy. Thank you for the support. I mean, if you're in Michigan,
19:38northern Michigan, I don't know how far that is away from Michigan State, but Michigan State has
19:42a technician pretty far away. Yeah, I think it's probably like five, six hours. So you'd have to
19:46go to school there. But if you're from a rural setting, I mean, there may be tons of opportunities
19:51for scholarship opportunities. Doesn't AVMA have some? I'd have to look like I feel like
19:58or there has to be when AVMA cover tech. Also your state, your state. Yeah. Veterinary Medical
20:06Association. Yeah. Would be also another place to look. Yeah. Sometimes there's definitely nationwide
20:12ones. Yeah. In the humane societies, like a lot of times, I mean, there'll be small scholarships
20:16like a thousand dollars or two. Right. I mean, you can usually apply to as many as you want to.
20:20It also doesn't have to be a veterinary scholarship. I feel like like there are some general
20:24ones you could do. Absolutely. Rotary clubs, like Lions clubs, like all those places do scholarships
20:31for students. So like I'd be looking in your state for those independent scholarships, even
20:37through church. They'll do scholarships. Rotary. I know it's a tiny high school, but I don't know
20:42if you guys have guidance counselors that are good at that stuff. Yeah. We had guidance counselors
20:46that were really good at that. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, there's got to be there is some there
20:54are some out there. If if your situation is such that you qualify for a Pell Grant, that would be
20:58the other thing because you're not paying it back. Yeah. So a Pell Grant would be something
21:03to consider as well. Yeah. Well, good luck. Yes, that's really cool. Thank you for listening. Five
21:09to six days a week. That's amazing. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. We were entertaining you. So
21:14your work's not boring. I know. Right. I can't get over her small class. I know. Yes. I hope
21:18everybody gets along. It would have been really funny if she said, seriously, there's 11 people
21:23in my class. Three of three of us are girls. And then the other eight are my cousins.
21:31That's just crazy. Oh, that makes for an interesting. How many are there? Okay.
21:37Continue using our text message feature for the podcast. All you have to do is tap on the episode
21:43in your podcast provider, probably Spotify. Look at the top where it says send us an inquiry through
21:47a text message here. And then you just type whatever you like. And then if you'd like a
21:51shout out, you have to put your name. Otherwise, it comes through as anonymous. Yep. Case collection.
21:57Okay. Yeah, I want to hear your guys. Interesting cases. I have my note.
22:04Hers is definitely more interesting than mine, but it's okay. I'll proceed. My case is an eight
22:10year old male neutered Australian cattle dog mix. He presented on February 4th of this year for just
22:15an annual exam. Owner reported he had had some PUPD for a little bit of time. We did some annual
22:23wellness blood work, sent that out. And then it came back. His ALKFOS was 199. The previous year
22:30had been 180. His TT4 was 0.9 and had previously been 0.5, but he had a normal free T4 and TSH.
22:40His calcium was 13.6, was previously 11.3. And then his albumin was four. So, since his
22:49albumin was normal, we skipped an ionized calcium and went straight to recommending the MSU malignancy
22:55panel. Owner luckily approved that. We did the malignancy panel, which measures the parathyroid
23:04hormone, ionized calcium, and then parathormone-related protein. Those results were
23:10parathyroid came back at 7.5, ionized calcium was 1.66, and parathormone was zero. The
23:20interpretation came back supportive of primary hyperparathyroidism. So, treatment options are
23:26surgical removal or experimenting with the drug, the Sinacol set. Do you know? Have you heard of
23:34that? No, I haven't. I thought the last time... Sinac. I don't think... Last time I had one,
23:40I just talked about surgery. Surgery and then benign neglect. The calcium gets out of control,
23:46like way out of control. Yeah. So, surgical removal is... Not calcitriol. That's for renal.
23:51Yeah. Surgical removal is one option, and then there's not much research on the experimental
23:59drug per Dr. Ham. There's not much knowledge on its effectiveness, and it can cause some
24:07GI upset apparently, and requires very heavy monitoring, like frequent rechecks and everything.
24:14So, the owners will most likely do surgical removal or just monitor, but that... I mean,
24:21we just got these results today, so they're going to take some time to
24:24think about it and decide. Yeah, because he's only eight, so...
24:26Yeah. It's a long time to deal with PUPD.
24:29Have you seen many... No, thank you.
24:31Have you seen many dogs that got the surgery and then became hypocosmic?
24:36No. The one I can think of that I had was older, so they didn't pursue anything. I don't know.
24:43I don't remember this drug. Is it fairly recent?
24:46I can spell it for you. Or maybe I read it and just,
24:49we didn't use it, so I forgot about it. It's C-I-N-A-C-A-L-C-E-T. Does that help at all?
24:57No. Maybe I... I don't know. I'd have to look on VIMS.
25:00It's supposed to decrease the calcium. But there's not much information on it.
25:06Gotcha. So, well, keep us posted.
25:09I've had a couple of cases where they've gone to surgery and removed it and then...
25:14But, I mean, one dog did become hypocalcemic. The other dog was fine. And then I've had a
25:24whole bunch of, like, not a whole bunch, like a whole handful of them that don't do anything.
25:28Because a lot of the times we find it and the dog is asymptomatic. So they're not PUPD.
25:34A brand is... Does that brand ring a bell at all?
25:38No. No, I don't recognize that.
25:43My case was a while ago, though, so I haven't looked at it recently.
25:46May treat chronic kidney disease.
25:50It can lower the amount of calcium.
25:51Well, calcium gets out of whack with these two, so...
25:54Again, that's true.
25:55Not much information.
25:57Well, I mean, if they go hypocalcemic, can't you just resupplement?
26:00Or is it too great to, like, supplementation doesn't work?
26:04I think what do they do? Do they... There's something else that they do when they're
26:08hypocalcemic. I don't think it has to do with supplementation. I can't remember what they do.
26:13But I found it interesting. And I went up to him and I was like,
26:16just like for educational purposes, why didn't you do an ionized calcium
26:20before the malignancy panel? And she said because the albumin was normal.
26:23And I didn't know that that played a role on it.
26:26Yeah, because albumin follows with calcium. So if you have, like,
26:30more so low calcium and albumin's low, that would be an example. Or they could be high together
26:36because what the body is measuring on that blood work is the calcium attached to albumin,
26:42not just calcium by itself.
26:43Interesting.
26:44Yeah.
26:45That panel, though, the malignancy panel always measures it anyway.
26:48Right.
26:50So, like, if you're going to submit it, typically you just...
26:52Well, in the face of clinical signs, too. So him being QPD probably prompted her.
26:57Yeah.
26:58Whereas, like, I've had high calciums, especially in cats, they can do it
27:01randomly, idiopathically. But if the dog was normal and I saw that,
27:05I probably would say recheck in a couple of months and see. So...
27:09And check anal glands while you're there.
27:12Yeah, we did check his anal glands, but...
27:14Interesting. Cool one.
27:15Okay.
27:17All righty. So today we had a 10-year-old, almost 11-year-old spayed female, Doxan, come in.
27:25And she came in for a core procedure, so a dental.
27:29So just a little backstory on Miss Bernadette here.
27:32She is known for high limb paralysis, which she was walking today.
27:36So I don't know what that's about. I mean, she's a Doxan, so...
27:40She is hypothyroidism, so she's on thyroid tabs.
27:43She was diagnosed in 2021 with IMTP.
27:48She is managed very well on leflunomide, however you say that.
27:54She is on a CD diet for a history of recurring UTIs.
27:59And we did...
28:00She's the gift that keeps on giving.
28:03No, I'm just painting you a picture.
28:06She is a little bit overweight.
28:08And then we did check blood work this morning, just to make sure everything's still okay.
28:14And her CBC especially looked normal for her.
28:17Her normal with her IMTP.
28:20So the doctors looked at her blood work.
28:22They said, yep, that's good.
28:23Let's go ahead with the surgery.
28:26So continuing to paint a picture.
28:28They went ahead and gave the propofol at 10 a.m.
28:31I have timestamps here.
28:34Propofol at 10.
28:35Legal document.
28:36They intubated her at 10.04.
28:39At 10.10, after she was intubated, her blood pressure was 174 over 158.
28:45And her blood pressure, she remained hypertensive, and she was also tachycardic.
28:49And her breathing was just weird.
28:51It was too labored.
28:53But it was abnormal.
28:55And it was like there was a leak somewhere.
28:58We're like, okay, let's just re-intubate her.
29:00So we extubated.
29:01We pushed more propofol.
29:04They re-intubated.
29:06And her blood pressure remained in the mid-100s-ish.
29:12And she still was having really weird breathing.
29:14Her heart rate would not...
29:15Her systolic was hot in 100s?
29:18The mean.
29:18The mean.
29:19Was in the 100s.
29:21So it was just still staying high, not normal for an animal being anesthetized.
29:26Her breathing was still labored and weird and just didn't...
29:30Nobody felt right about it.
29:33So she wasn't breathing well in her...
29:34It was just weird.
29:36So they tried...
29:37Well, they first leak tested the whole anesthetic machine again,
29:40which it was already leak tested prior to even starting her procedure.
29:44So when they extubated her, they rechecked everything,
29:46made sure there was no leaks in the tube, the machine, blah, blah, blah.
29:49Do you know how her reflexes were?
29:52I don't.
29:52I did not ask.
29:53How much...
29:53How overweight is she?
29:56Does she pick wiki in?
29:57I don't think she's...
29:58She's not ro-timed.
30:00She wasn't like...
30:02She's probably like a 7 out of 9.
30:06Body condition score.
30:07So was she just...
30:087.5 out of 9.
30:09So was she pick wiki in?
30:10So...
30:11What?
30:12Pick wiki in?
30:15That's gonna be in the preview clip of the podcast.
30:18All of our faces.
30:21Come again?
30:23They're too...
30:24They weigh too much.
30:25So they can't inflate their chest.
30:28Oh, that's my next...
30:29What's the medical term?
30:30Pick wiki in.
30:31Oh, it is?
30:33Yes.
30:33I've never heard that.
30:35I feel like maybe I have heard it.
30:37People!
30:37You mean like adalecticus of the lung?
30:39No, it's called...
30:41Oh my gosh.
30:42I'm gonna...
30:42I'm looking it up right now.
30:43Pick what?
30:44Pick wiki.
30:45Pick what?
30:45Piglet.
30:46I think adalecticus is when the tube...
30:48Only goes down into one lung.
30:49So then the other one doesn't inflate, right?
30:52That can happen with a tube, but...
30:54Yeah.
30:55Well, it is like a collapsed lung.
30:58Obesity hypoventilation syndrome.
31:00It's a condition in which severely overweight people,
31:03as well as dogs,
31:04fail to breathe rapidly or deeply enough,
31:05resulting in low oxygen levels and high carbon dioxide levels.
31:08It's like they don't inflate because they weigh too much.
31:11So...
31:11But all of her other vitals were normal,
31:13besides she was hypertensive and tachycardic.
31:15Everything else looked good.
31:16So she...
31:17But she wasn't...
31:17But she was breathing really fast?
31:19And not deep?
31:21It was just...
31:21I don't know how to...
31:22I heard someone describe it as labored breathing.
31:24Yeah.
31:24They kept saying labored,
31:26but it was just abnormal for an anesthetic person.
31:29Okay.
31:29Dog.
31:30Pick wikian.
31:33King's calling it.
31:33Word of the day.
31:35Okay.
31:35So they were watching her vitals.
31:37They tried everything.
31:38Again, like after re-intubating for the second time,
31:40they tried changing her position on her side,
31:43on her back, of sternal...
31:45Typically during anesthesia.
31:46On her head.
31:47Not on her head.
31:48They tried every position they could think of
31:50to try to see if that would help her breathing
31:52and her other vitals stabilize.
31:54Well, nothing worked.
31:56So Dr. Jones, who was the doctor on the case,
31:59decided to call it.
32:00And she said,
32:00this is not normal.
32:01We are not proceeding.
32:02So they did nothing.
32:03No dental...
32:04Like nothing of the dental was done.
32:06So they woke her up.
32:08She was extubated again.
32:10She still...
32:11She recovered very well.
32:13Everything was pretty normal in recovery.
32:15She still had some breathing...
32:17Some labored breathing that was off.
32:19So Dr. Jones is like,
32:20all right, she called the owner.
32:21She said, she's doing fine.
32:23But I'd like to take some chest x-rays
32:24because something is not right here.
32:26So they took chest x-rays,
32:28which revealed cardiomegaly.
32:31And it revealed fractured ribs.
32:34I didn't know about that.
32:36Some of the fractures and the ribs
32:38did look like old injuries.
32:40So they were calcified.
32:42We are not aware if she had any previous injury.
32:45If she ever had CPR in the past
32:47or anything like that.
32:50I don't know if they could tell
32:51if some of the fractures were new,
32:52but a lot of them were pretty old.
32:56So we sent her home.
32:57She was doing fine the rest of the day.
33:00She is coming back on Monday
33:02to see our cardiologist
33:04for a further workup
33:05with her cardiac stuff that's going on.
33:08Her heart was huge.
33:10Like it was her whole chest.
33:11It was very big.
33:12Um, I don't know that information either.
33:17I did not ask.
33:18Dr. Jones did not tell me
33:19if there was one or not.
33:20So I will ask.
33:23And they're also going to recheck
33:24a blood pressure
33:25just because she did have
33:27some drugs in her system.
33:28So they just want to see
33:29if like she's truly hypertensive
33:31or if it's everything else
33:32that was playing into it.
33:34So they're going to recheck
33:35a blood pressure on Monday
33:36and then she's going to have
33:37an echocardiogram with our cardiologist.
33:40Methadone and midazolam,
33:43I want to say,
33:45but I could be wrong.
33:46But I'm pretty sure
33:47it's midazolam and methadone.
33:48Um, what do you typically do
33:50with pick wicking or whatever?
33:52Pick wicking.
33:54Pick wicking syndrome.
33:55I'm so glad you guys
33:56are all learning about it tonight.
33:58You just move them?
34:00Yeah, what do you do?
34:00You have to ventilate.
34:01You have to ventilate them.
34:02They cannot because otherwise
34:04they create too much
34:04of a cardiac load,
34:05like a load on their heart.
34:06And then they literally
34:07can't move air.
34:08They cannot move air.
34:10If you're breathing for them,
34:11you can keep going
34:12with the procedure.
34:14If it was going to take four hours,
34:16that'd be really long.
34:17You would need a ventilator.
34:18I mean, like who's going to breathe?
34:21Like a life saving surgery
34:23or something.
34:24Yeah, I mean, like otherwise
34:25you would hook them up
34:25to a ventilator.
34:26Yeah, just breathe for them.
34:27Yeah.
34:27But since you don't have,
34:28we don't have that,
34:29then you would breathe for them
34:30every six to ten seconds.
34:31It would be so nice if we did.
34:32What did you say?
34:33It would be so nice
34:34if we had a ventilator.
34:35Yeah.
34:37Did you guys breathe for her
34:38during surgery?
34:39They were trying at first, yes.
34:41But it just nothing was working
34:42and nothing was lowering her heart rate
34:44and blood pressure.
34:45So it got concerning
34:46because we're like,
34:47she's not asleep.
34:48Like you can't do anything.
34:49What was your CO2?
34:52Normal.
34:52It was in the 40s.
34:54It was like 43, 40.
34:55Like it was normal.
34:56I'm curious how deep she was.
34:59I don't know.
34:59Interesting case.
35:00It was just, yeah,
35:01they were like,
35:01let's just do RADs.
35:02And then boom, fractured ribs.
35:03That's so wild.
35:04Those are probably just.
35:05And so she, they were old.
35:06So like she wasn't painful.
35:07Especially if they're at the,
35:09where were they at?
35:09Where were the fractures at?
35:12I looked at the x-rays
35:14like halfway down.
35:15Her rib cage.
35:16Is that what you're asking?
35:17Like what ribs?
35:18On the costochondral junctions
35:20or on the.
35:22Like close to the sternum.
35:23Yeah.
35:24Or.
35:27I want to say yes.
35:30I briefly looked at the x-rays.
35:32Arthritis.
35:33Yeah.
35:33There was,
35:34there was old dog.
35:35Like there was definitely
35:36arthritis there,
35:37but there was also
35:37definitely fractures.
35:38Yeah.
35:39Because if she had like.
35:40You can fracture.
35:40Acute fractures.
35:41She'd be so painful.
35:42Yeah.
35:43That's what she wasn't acting.
35:44Like when she was picked up and stuff.
35:46That's why she's like,
35:47they're old.
35:48Are you suggesting her ribs
35:49fractured from arthritis?
35:51No, the appearance of it on x-ray.
35:53It would look like fractures.
35:54Don't specify that to me.
35:56She definitely saw arthritis,
35:57but then there was
35:58definitely fractures.
35:59Gotcha.
35:59You could see them.
36:00Like on the laterals,
36:01you could see the rib is literally.
36:03Like there was a piece here
36:04and a piece here.
36:05Like I could see the fracture.
36:07How is that dog not in pain?
36:09It'll be interesting to see
36:10what the cardiologist says,
36:11especially if she doesn't have a murmur.
36:12I know.
36:12Yeah.
36:13I don't know about the murmur.
36:14I didn't ask that.
36:16Because those are so,
36:17can be so deceptive on chest films.
36:20Well, the breed too,
36:21it can give.
36:22Is that what you're talking about?
36:22Like the.
36:23They just look like.
36:24You're like,
36:25that dog has,
36:26you know,
36:27you go and like have them scan
36:28and they're like,
36:29they're normal.
36:31Bulldogs.
36:31Bulldogs.
36:32Those guys.
36:33Who else?
36:34Anatomically messed up.
36:36Yeah.
36:38They're so frustrating.
36:39That's why I do a vertebral heart score.
36:42I don't know.
36:43You're going to go back in tomorrow
36:45and check this out.
36:46Yes.
36:46Look at all those.
36:47So many questions.
36:48I just got the basics of that.
36:50Sorry.
36:50That's what you get,
36:51right?
36:51I literally wasn't a part of the case.
36:53No guys.
36:54I was not there.
36:56I just heard about it.
36:57And I was like,
36:57Courtney,
36:57you have to talk about the podcast.
36:59Those are two great cases.
37:00Yeah.
37:00Yeah, it was good.
37:01We'll report back on the drug.
37:02Once Duckwall and I have a chance to.
37:05And we will.
37:05I'll bring the cardiologist report back too.
37:08Love it.
37:08There we go.
37:09We'll follow up.
37:09Two follow ups.
37:10Love it.
37:11I'll text the name of the drug.
37:13Fantastic.
37:15Okay.
37:16Onward and upward.
37:17Listener question.
37:18Hi guys.
37:18I've recently started listening to your podcast
37:20and you are all amazing.
37:21I'm a CVT of six years
37:23and I have a question on a controversial topic.
37:28What is your opinion on declawing cats?
37:30I work at a clinic that does this procedure
37:32and we don't really see any issues with cats
37:34after the fact.
37:35You hear about how painful it is
37:36and how it affects their life negatively,
37:38but in my experience,
37:39we aren't seeing this.
37:40We do a local block on the paws,
37:42post-op pain injection and Kameena
37:44and then pain meds go home.
37:46When most cats come back at their week rechecks,
37:48owners are saying that their cat
37:50is back to normal activity.
37:51Again, I know this can be a real hot topic,
37:53but I'm genuinely curious.
37:55Thanks for all that you do.
37:56Mac CVT.
37:58This is hot.
37:59All right.
37:59Sizzling.
38:00It's a hot one.
38:00This is a hot topic.
38:01I'm curious about your opinion.
38:03Why me?
38:05Because I don't know it.
38:05Because I'm old.
38:07No, I'm old.
38:08I, I, uh, gosh, I mean,
38:11I will definitely create controversy
38:14with my opinion, but I mean,
38:15I think, oh, I've always said
38:20if you can, if, if you can have a cat
38:24in a household and not have it declawed
38:26and it doesn't do any harm to anybody.
38:29That's ideal.
38:30And then fantastic.
38:32Awesome.
38:33There are lots of people,
38:34specifically older people
38:36or immunocompromised people
38:37where it's probably
38:39in their best interest
38:40to have the pet declawed.
38:42Like they're on blood thinners
38:43and they keep getting torn up.
38:45Yeah.
38:46And so if an owner is insistent,
38:49because in our state, it's not illegal.
38:51If they're insistent upon,
38:53yeah, insistent upon doing it,
38:55then I want to make sure
38:56they get the best care possible.
38:58So then I want to do it for them
39:00so that I know that they're not
39:01just getting some hack job somewhere else.
39:03So I've always taken the approach,
39:05well, if they're going to do it,
39:06they're going to do it.
39:07So why don't we do it
39:08and do it really well
39:09and handle the patient
39:10the way it should be handled
39:11in an effort to try and prevent
39:13any post-operative complications.
39:16So we have a very specific way
39:17that we do it from the standpoint
39:18of medications and preventing,
39:20you know, ghost pain
39:22and things like that as the-
39:23Which has adapted over time too.
39:25It's been tweaked and advanced, added on.
39:29Our protocol is two weeks.
39:32You like, well, sorry,
39:33a week prior to the surgery,
39:34we try to get the patient
39:36on amitriptyline and gabapentin.
39:39And then you have the procedure
39:40and then you do gabapentin
39:42for two weeks after
39:43and then amitriptyline
39:44but at a tapering dose for,
39:46I usually end up doing it for three weeks
39:48that you taper it down.
39:50But then also the local block,
39:52we have Nocita,
39:52which is that's on label for that.
39:55And then Zorbium,
40:00I mean, obviously pre-op
40:02in your pre-anesthetic protocol,
40:04you would do probably an opioid.
40:06And then, yeah, in recovery,
40:09buprenorphine or Zorbium
40:11and anti-inflammatories,
40:13usually they're young.
40:15So obviously we check blood work
40:16and make sure,
40:17but I don't have an issue
40:18doing an anti-inflammatory
40:21as long as the blood pressure is okay.
40:23We give them their batons
40:24and typically keep them overnight.
40:27Check them in the morning.
40:27We wrap their paws.
40:29Yeah, they're each,
40:30I think, I know Dr. King
40:33usually glues the incisions.
40:35As long as they're under a certain weight.
40:37Yeah, I personally like to just suture
40:40no matter what size it is.
40:41I just feel like it's more secure.
40:44We also used to do convenia
40:45but I think we stopped doing that.
40:46No, we do.
40:47We still do it.
40:48Oh, really?
40:49Because there was one with Jones
40:51we didn't do it
40:52because of the whole antibiotic
40:54resistance thing going on.
40:56I consider it a dirty surgery.
40:58Yeah, I mean, paws very dirty.
41:00So you can't sterilize.
41:01No, it makes complete sense
41:03that you can do it.
41:03Yeah, because you can't sterilize
41:04the surgical site.
41:05So that's why.
41:07I mean, I think,
41:10yeah, I mean, I think that
41:11if the owner is going to be mad at the cat
41:13all the time
41:14because they're being destructive,
41:16then how is that good
41:18for the relationship
41:19between the, you know,
41:20is the cat going to get relinquished?
41:22Is something else going to happen?
41:23You know, people don't want
41:24indoor outdoor cats.
41:25Some people have opinions about that.
41:26Well, then, okay.
41:28Yeah.
41:29I don't know.
41:29I think it's a balancing act.
41:30I don't think it one size fits all.
41:32I think it's really dependent.
41:33We do talk to people about other options
41:35when they're kittens about,
41:36okay, do this and do this and do this
41:38and, you know, as alternatives.
41:41That's what I tell
41:42whenever people ask me about it.
41:43I say, we, I encourage you
41:46and I will give you all the information
41:47of all the other options first.
41:49So feel a scratch,
41:51all the different types
41:52of scratching posts.
41:55You can put catnip on scratching posts
41:57to encourage that.
41:58There's nail caps and stuff.
42:00Kitty caps.
42:01Cutting their nails,
42:02training them how to cut their nails.
42:04So it's not stressful
42:05and you have to bring them
42:05to the vet to do so.
42:09Getting them to use
42:10a particular scratching area or post.
42:12Because in my mind, I agree.
42:13If they're going to do it,
42:16they're going to do it.
42:17There's so many things we recommend.
42:19Against, or for,
42:20and people are still going to,
42:21at the end of the day,
42:22do what they want to do.
42:23So, I mean, we have a laser that we use.
42:27I know the old fashioned way
42:29was guillotine,
42:29which is not.
42:31Do you not want to do that?
42:32No, we don't want to do that.
42:34We've had people come to us
42:35and ask because they know
42:36we have a laser.
42:37So we talk about it.
42:39I guess I'm in the same boat
42:40as Dr. King,
42:41which I know is controversial.
42:42But in my mind,
42:43if I can do it well,
42:45I know I'm doing all the pain
42:47that I have to do.
42:49As far as managing it.
42:50And I've got experience with it.
42:54And that is, at the end of the day,
42:56the last resort for this family.
42:58And they want to obviously
42:59keep their beloved pet.
43:00Then I'll do it.
43:03Yeah, I agree with everything.
43:04I will say, I feel like we do.
43:06We don't see many problems in recovery.
43:09Like the declaw problems.
43:10I'm not trying to say other clinics do it,
43:12but there's other clinics
43:13that don't do it as well as we do.
43:14Not to toot our own horns,
43:15but we're very good at it.
43:17And those are the complications we see.
43:19Or if it is an older cat,
43:20like larger,
43:21we see post-op bleeding sometimes.
43:24But usually that's resolved pretty quickly.
43:26And the cats don't really seem to care.
43:28The only thing they care about
43:29are the bandages on their paws.
43:32Yeah, I mean,
43:32one of our colleagues, Dr. Pulse,
43:34had to amputate a cat's limb
43:36because of other clinics did the procedure,
43:41came to us for post-op complications
43:42and it got really bad.
43:43I don't know the details of that case.
43:45This was years ago,
43:46but it was rough.
43:48Yeah, I will say from personal,
43:50personal experience,
43:52my cat's acting like nothing happened.
43:54And it was a fairly recent thing that I did.
43:57It was many reasons why.
44:01So people want to be judgmental about it.
44:04But ultimately I did it for my cat.
44:06And he literally was just angry
44:08that we kept him separated and confined
44:11because I didn't want him too active.
44:13Yeah, you want to keep him quiet
44:15that little bit.
44:15Yeah, for sure.
44:17Doing amazing.
44:18He's doing great.
44:19So, yeah, I mean,
44:20I totally get the directive
44:22they're trying to go with
44:23because they're, you know,
44:24I mean, protecting,
44:26they're trying to protect the cats.
44:29But I just, I just have a hard time.
44:32Like, what about the like,
44:34like a blanket statement?
44:35Are people this hot topic about ear cropping
44:38and tail docking?
44:39Yes, I think a lot of people are.
44:40OK, yeah.
44:41Maybe I just don't hear a lot about it
44:42because we don't do a lot of ear cropping.
44:44We don't do any.
44:45We don't do any ear cropping.
44:46Or tail docking.
44:47Unless we have to.
44:50You mean like moving a mass or something?
44:51Oh, yeah.
44:53But not for not cosmetic reasons.
44:55Yeah.
44:58I mean, just like anything else,
44:59it's either for it or against it
45:02or somewhere in between.
45:03True, pit bulls are illegal in some places.
45:05I was going to say, yeah.
45:07Nobody's ever going to be happy.
45:09Not everybody's going to be happy.
45:11I think just look at your patient,
45:13analyze the situation.
45:15And decide what you're comfortable with, too.
45:16If you're just not comfortable doing it
45:18at the end of the day, that's fine.
45:20Still surgery, you want to be confident.
45:22It's OK to choose not to do it.
45:24If you don't want to do that surgery, don't do it.
45:26It's also OK if you choose that
45:28at the end of the day, you're OK with doing it.
45:30I feel like because it's a hot topic,
45:33there's a stigma.
45:35I totally can understand and see
45:38where people are like,
45:38if I'm OK with that, I bet I'll get judged
45:40or I don't know.
45:43It's the same thing with indoor-outdoor cats.
45:46People feeling like you're getting judged
45:48about whether or not you have a cat
45:49that's indoor-outdoor.
45:51I have one cat that's indoor,
45:53one cat that's indoor-outdoor.
45:54My indoor-outdoor cat is way healthier
45:56than my indoor cat from the standpoint
45:58of lean body mass, active.
46:00He's 19.
46:02He's still killing things.
46:04He's hunting outside.
46:06He's still active, thanks to Salencia.
46:11You couldn't ask for more.
46:13People are just going to have set opinions
46:15based off their experiences
46:16or what they read
46:17or what they believe.
46:18What they believe, yeah.
46:19Experiences they've had.
46:21Yep.
46:24Good question, Mac.
46:25Mixed bag.
46:26Mixed bag, yes.
46:28You heard it from our opinions, though.
46:30So that's right.
46:31Take it or leave it.
46:32I don't know.
46:33Thank you so much for tuning in
46:34to another episode of
46:35the Veterinary Roundtable.
46:36Remember, send in those questions
46:38and leave us a review
46:39if you enjoyed this episode
46:40or a previous one.
46:41We'll see you next week for another episode
46:42of the Veterinary Roundtable.
46:43Bye-bye.
46:44Bye-bye.