Global Affairs Canada is condemning China after the country executed an unspecified number of Canadian citizens earlier this year over drug-related crimes. China's embassy in Ottawa defended the executions on Wednesday, telling CBC News in an email that 'whoever violates the law of China must be held accountable in accordance with the law.'
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NewsTranscript
00:00Andrew, we haven't been given a specific number by Global Affairs as to how many Canadians
00:04were executed in China last year.
00:06They're not revealing their identities publicly for the sake of the family's privacy.
00:10But they did, as you mentioned, speak out and condemn these actions.
00:13Here's a statement from a spokesperson at Global Affairs, Charlotte McLeod, who writes,
00:17Canada strongly condemns China's use of the death penalty, which is irreversible and inconsistent
00:22with basic human dignity.
00:24Canada repeatedly called for clemency for these individuals at the senior-most levels
00:28and remains steadfast in its opposition to the use of the death penalty in all cases
00:32everywhere.
00:33She adds that Canada continues to advocate for clemency for Robert Schellenberg and provides
00:38him and his family consular assistance.
00:40Robert Schellenberg is a key figure in all this.
00:42He has been in prison in China since 2014.
00:46He was at first given a 15-year prison term, and then three years later, his term was upgraded
00:52to a death penalty.
00:54This came shortly after Canada arrested Meng Wanzhou, who was the Huawei executive, arrested
00:59in Vancouver in 2018.
01:00China at the time also retaliated by detaining Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor
01:05in China.
01:06They've since been released, but Mr. Schellenberg remains in prison.
01:09He is not among those who was executed in China last year.
01:13Foreign Affairs has confirmed that with us.
01:15Now, in the meantime, we also got a statement from a spokesperson at the Chinese embassy
01:19in Canada, who tells CBC News, China is a rule of law country.
01:23Whoever violates the law of China must be held accountable in accordance with the law.
01:27Drug-related crime is a severe crime recognized worldwide as extremely harmful to the society
01:32and will be faced with severe penalties in all countries.
01:35The facts of the crimes committed by the Canadian nationals involved in the cases are clear,
01:39and the evidence is solid and sufficient.
01:41We urge the Canadian side to respect the rule of law and China's judicial sovereignty.
01:46Stop making irresponsible remarks.
01:49CBC News Network also spoke earlier today to Veena Najibullah.
01:52She's a vice president of research and strategy at the Asia-Pacific Foundation of Canada.
01:57She's based in Vancouver.
01:58She tells us China has a 99 percent conviction rate, especially when it comes to drug-related
02:02crimes.
02:03They barely grant appeals or clemency, and they regularly sentence foreigners to death.
02:08Despite all that, this is still a surprise.
02:11Well, it's a deeply troubling development.
02:15Execution of foreigners is extremely rare, even in the Chinese criminal justice system,
02:20which has a 99 percent conviction rate and carries out more executions than any other
02:25country in the world.
02:27According to Amnesty International, in fact, China carries out more executions than all
02:30other countries combined.
02:32Now, there's no specific reasoning as to why this uptick in Canadians executed in China.
02:37We do know there are about 100 still in custody there.
02:41But we do know that we've got a bit of a tariff war going on with the U.S.
02:44Canada recently tariffed electric vehicles coming in from the U.S., and China announced
02:49just a slew of tariffs against Canada as well, set to come into effect tomorrow, including,
02:54as Andrew mentioned earlier in the show, on canola.
02:56That is seen as a message from China to Canada not to align with the U.S. in their stance
03:02against China.
03:03Mark, thank you.
03:04The CBC's Mark Carcassol.
03:06So for more on this, I want to bring in Guy Saint-Jacques.
03:08He is a former Canadian ambassador to China, and he's joining us live in Montreal.
03:12I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, sir.
03:15You're most welcome.
03:17What was your initial reaction to hearing the news that Canadians, an unspecified number
03:23of Canadians, have been executed in China?
03:26Well, I think it's something, unfortunately, that was to be expected, and I was involved
03:34myself when I was ambassador.
03:36We had two cases, two Canadians of Chinese origin, who were similarly convicted for drug
03:45trafficking.
03:46They were sentenced to death, and I recall that then Prime Minister Mr. Harper intervened
03:53with the Chinese premier.
03:54The governor general, Mr. Johnson, also wrote to Xi Jinping on the eve of the execution,
04:02and despite those interventions, the two were executed.
04:05I think that our intervention delayed the execution by at most one year.
04:10In this case, in fact, it has taken longer than usual for China to proceed with the death
04:20sentence, because let's recall that there had been the two Canadians, and I think that
04:27what is at stake here is, again, two Canadians of Chinese origin at the time of the arrest
04:35of Meng Wanzhou in December 2018.
04:37They had already been condemned, and as we heard from Mrs. Najibullah, in China, once
04:45you are formally charged, you are found guilty 99.9% of the time, but they were not executed.
04:56China, after the arrest of Madame Meng, who had pressure on Canada, also changed the sentence
05:01of Robert Schellenberg to the death penalty, and here we are, I would say about six years
05:14later, so they were probably executed.
05:18We don't know exactly when, but I would say they got a reprieve of about five years before
05:23the execution was carried out.
05:27Okay.
05:28I want to ask you, I want to go back to your time as ambassador, but I want to stay in
05:33this moment just for a second to just kind of get a better sense.
05:36Do you know anything about who these Canadians could be, how many they could be, why they
05:45could have been executed?
05:48Well, China takes very seriously drug offenses, especially trafficking in drugs, and this
05:56goes back to the opium years, and China doesn't want to be faced with a problem, and I recall
06:03having discussion with Chinese officials.
06:05They said, we want to avoid a situation similar to that in your country where drugs are widely
06:14used, and therefore we will continue to apply very severe sentences to people that are convicted
06:21of drug trafficking.
06:23Of course, we would debate with them and say, we are totally opposed to the death penalty.
06:32You should be sentenced to a life sentence, and that should be it.
06:38In the two cases, I was aware of those cases.
06:43I know that one person is a Canadian of Chinese origin who entered China on a Canadian passport,
06:51and therefore the embassy had consular access to this person.
06:55The second one, also a Canadian of Chinese origin, unfortunately entered China with a
07:02Chinese passport, therefore the Chinese authorities did not recognize his Canadian citizenship
07:07and the embassy was never able to have access to him, but still the embassy kept making
07:14demarches on those cases as well as on the case of Mr. Schellenberg.
07:21I don't know if among the 100 or so Canadians who are actually detained in China, if there
07:27are any other drug offenses cases.
07:33The question that I'm asking myself, why have they decided finally to proceed with these
07:40executions?
07:41It could have been done some time ago because the relationship has been bad since the arrest
07:48of Wang Wanzhou, so maybe they just wanted to proceed with the executions, get that out
07:56of the way.
08:00You mentioned that there were a couple of other Canadians who have in fact been executed,
08:05and this goes back to the Stephen Harper years.
08:10I'm trying to get a sense of just how rare and unusual it is for Westerners.
08:16I understand the death penalty can be imposed, but that the actual execution of Westerners
08:24happens.
08:25Yes, and in fact it's true that this is pretty rare, and in all of this I have always wondered
08:33if the Chinese authorities were making a distinction between Caucasian foreigners and
08:43Canadians of Chinese origin.
08:45Because very often I've had discussions with Chinese officials, and it's clear that they
08:51consider these people as Chinese, and I would tell them, look, they are not Chinese, they
08:55have Canadian passports.
08:57But unfortunately we were aware that there were Canadians who, and I would say it was
09:05mostly of Chinese origin, who came back to China to get involved in criminal activities
09:11that were enticed by the money that could be made.
09:15But again, China has zero tolerance for anyone that is involved in drug trafficking.
09:22But if I recall correctly, apart from those Canadians of Chinese origin, I don't think
09:30that in the last 15, 20 years that we have had other Canadians who have been executed
09:36in China.
09:37What does it say about the Canada-China relationship that these executions took place?
09:44Well, I think it just shows that the relationship is still very difficult.
09:52Add to this the terrorists that will come into force tomorrow.
09:56I think that China is clearly sending us a message that if we want the relationship to
10:03improve, we have to take some steps.
10:07I think the fact that we will have a new government shortly in Ottawa after the elections
10:14offers an opportunity to restart dialogue.
10:17It won't come back to what it was before the time of the arrest of Mrs. Meng Wanzhou,
10:25but I think there are a number of areas where we can have discussion with the Chinese.
10:30In the case of the tariffs, they were quite explicit that they are ready to have discussions
10:36with us.
10:37Of course, the message has been repeated a few times.
10:40Look at what your relationship with the United States is looking like.
10:46Don't you think that you should consider China a lot more and we are ready to discuss
10:52with you.
10:52I think that this will have to trigger in Ottawa some reflection on what can be achieved
11:02with China.
11:03When I look at the trade figures, China remains a very important market for us.
11:08Last year, we exported almost $30 billion worth of goods.
11:14Canola was $4 billion of that.
11:17Other agricultural product, 8.7.
11:20We export a lot of minerals, more and more oil, but apart from natural resources, I think
11:27also that we could export technology related to environmental protection, renewable energy.
11:36Of course, this can be done while being very clear on our values and our interests and
11:42setting our own red lines to tell the Chinese there are things that we won't tolerate and
11:47I would include in this Chinese interference.
11:50It's something that will have to be watched very closely in the upcoming elections because
11:54so far, China knows that there are very little consequences for them to intervene and they
12:03know the vulnerabilities of our electoral system and they will want to continue to focus
12:09on those, I would say, about a dozen ridings where there's a large population of Chinese
12:16origin to try to get a candidate of their liking to be elected.
12:21Just quickly, before I let you go, when you say a new government, I assume you're just
12:25saying there will be an election, a new government, whatever the political stripe that will allow
12:31for the potential reset of the relationship.
12:35But when you talk about red lines, you talk about the trading relationship, executing
12:40Canadians, I mean, how should the Canadian government react to this?
12:45What kind of reaction should there be?
12:48Because this feels like it could be a very serious red line that China has crossed.
12:56Well, I think that China's position won't change on that.
13:01Again, for them, drug trafficking is a no-no.
13:06They will continue to send the message.
13:08And I think for Canada, there is a two-pronged approach.
13:12I think we have to remind Canadians, and this will have to be made explicitly in the consular
13:18advice for Canadians who want to travel to China, to remind them that the law can be
13:25very harsh, that if you are involved in drug trafficking, you will likely be executed.
13:31So to try to convince more Canadians not to travel to China, to engage into drug trafficking.
13:38And I think in parallel, Canada should work with other allies to try to impress on China
13:45that they have to change their ways, that they are now one of the very few countries
13:50that still continue to apply the death penalty and that instead they should be sentencing
13:56these people to life sentences.
14:00Sir, appreciate your time and your insight once again.
14:03Guy Saint-Jacques is a former Canadian ambassador to China.