The Institute for Democracy and Economic Affairs (IDEAS) with support from Yayasan Sime Darby, recently launched a report on a five-year pilot project aimed at building a more inclusive education model for Orang Asli children in Malaysia. The report offers not just data, but deep insights drawn from the ground—using participatory methods that actively involve Tok Batins, parents, students and teachers. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Suria Selasih Angit, Assistant Professor at University of Nottingham Malaysia’s School of Education, and Durrah Sharifah Ahmad Azlan, Researcher at IDEAS.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This.
00:14This is the show where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:19The Institute for Democracy and Economic Affairs, Ideas, with the support of Yaya San Saim Darby,
00:25recently launched a report of a five-year pilot project which is aimed at building a more inclusive
00:33education model for orang asli children in Malaysia. The report offers not just data but deep
00:39insights drawn from the ground using participatory methods that actively involve parents and students
00:48and teachers and even topatins. So today on the show, we have two of the authors of the report,
00:56Dr. Surya Slateh Anjit, who is an assistant professor at University of Nautical, Malaysia's School of
01:02Education, and Dura Sharifa Ahmad Azlan, who is a researcher at Ideas. Both of you, welcome to the
01:09show. Thank you so much for joining me. Dr. Surya, can we talk a little bit about this project? Tell me
01:14about the pilot project, how it started, when it started, where it was done, and all those details.
01:22Thank you, Melissa. And like you mentioned just now, the project started about five years ago.
01:29But the first two years were actually the initial studies that were conducted by a different group
01:37of researchers. And then we took cover from the previous studies. And then the next two and a half
01:45years, that's the one that that is really where the implementation of the project happened. So
01:51basically, the the implementation of this pilot project was actually based on the 12 policy
01:58recommendation that were they were made by the Ideas team, the the first two studies, right?
02:04Since 2020 and 2021.
02:06Okay, so this is a really long, long project. So the first half was really just kind of getting a lay
02:13of the land and understanding and then coming up with the recommendations. And the second part was about
02:20how to implement these recommendations. Could you very briefly, Dr. Surya, talk to me about what it
02:26hoped to address? What was the objective of the project?
02:29Okay, I think we are all mostly we are aware that our students are underperforming and there are like
02:37a lot of educational issues or challenges that our students are facing at the moment, then oftentimes,
02:43all these challenges are being framed within a very negative framing. So I think based on our prior
02:51studies, and also the recent research, not only by Ideas, but other by other researchers as well,
02:56we realized that we need to change this, this narrative, we need, we need it to be more
03:02strength based. And also, the two prior studies that Ideas conducted found that there is a dire need
03:11to actually look at the underlying challenges. So that's, that's how we, okay, we want to look at the
03:16underlying challenges, not the symptoms anymore. So that's why we decided that, yeah, let's look at the
03:22strengths rather than the problems. And, and Ideas coming in to look at the underlying challenges.
03:28What, what was it that you were hoping to address through Ideas? I think, um, continuing on the
03:34previous work done by Ideas about how there's all the underlying challenges, how we should build more
03:41trust between Orang Asli and Non Orang Asli communities, as well as shifting the narrative to
03:47having it more strength based. We are really trying to bridge the gap between policy recommendations
03:53and translating it into actual actions on the ground. So that's how, that's what we hope to achieve
03:58through this project. And we hope that through the documentation of the processes, um, it could also
04:04act as a guide for any future stakeholders interested to do projects with the Orang Asli community.
04:11Could you walk me through the different components? So there were a few phases, right? So talk to me
04:16about why you had these different perspectives, different angles. I think, um, the different components
04:22that we have, I guess most importantly was like what Dr. Zulia mentioned, um, having these sessions,
04:28needs analysis with the community themselves, the Orang Asli students, parents, on the teachers,
04:34on what are their hopes, aspirations and needs. Also including multi-stakeholders such as from the
04:42government, the Bahagian Pengurusan Sekolah, the Jabatan Pendidikan Negeri, JAKOWA, which is a Jabatan
04:50and Kemajuan Orang Asli, um, as well as other NGOs to make ensure that our goals are all aligned. Yeah. And
04:58also ensuring that we are utilizing, um, indigenous guided methodologies and also building that capacity
05:07for the implementers to do these programs. And yes, the intention of having all this wider perspective is
05:14also related to how there's a lack of data. So it's important for us to get this, uh, lived experience
05:23from those who are on the field itself. Um, in addition to really, um, integrating what was mentioned
05:31by the NGOs on how there's a lack of coordination between different stakeholders. So that's why it's
05:37important for us to get all this wider perspective. No, it's wonderful that you're kind of bringing
05:41everyone together. I want to talk to you about the indigenous guided methodologies. And I think
05:47one of the reasons why I was so interested in the report was because it used, it allowed for the voices
05:56of, um, in the community to be heard. So why was it very important to center these methods in your
06:04research? And what do you think, um, what insights do you think they enabled that maybe might have been
06:10missed had other traditional research methods been used? All right. Um, just to emphasize on this,
06:16right? So at the moment, we don't exact, we don't have the exact research method or indigenous method
06:22for the Orang-Azi communities yet. Okay. So what we did was we adapted or we adopted, uh, the research
06:28methods from overseas, from, you know, other indigenous communities. And one of the methods that we use was
06:35called sharing circles. And, uh, uh, I think the, uh, this is a powerful tool to actually,
06:41you know, give, uh, a platform or to let the indigenous community members, our Orang-Azi community
06:47members in this case, to actually, uh, be active participants with meaningful participation. I think
06:53previously, um, or currently even the participation is quite limited to like, um, you know, consultation.
07:00And yeah, I, I would like to highlight here that consulting the community members is not considered as,
07:06you know, being, uh, or being, uh, culturally responsive or, you know, it's, we have to go beyond
07:12consulting. So what this method enabled us to do is actually to, uh, initiate this co-creation process.
07:19Of course, this project being a pilot project, it's not perfect, but we learned a lot from the process itself.
07:25So it was a learning journey for all of us and community members included. And yeah. And,
07:31and, and I think it enabled us to really learn from each other. So to, to put ourselves in a
07:36different position and to sort of balance the, you know, power dynamics between the non Orang-Azi,
07:42the implementers, the so-called experts, and, and also invite the community members to be the experts,
07:48because we talk about inclusive education for the Orang-Azi or for the indigenous students. And we,
07:53we, we, we don't really, you know, no one has really clearly defined what inclusive
07:59education would look like for our Orang-Azi communities. And then, um, yeah. And who would
08:05know the local indigenous knowledge more than? Yes, of course. So you want to hear what they are
08:11saying and what were they saying? What did the Orang-Azi parents and students and teachers, what did they
08:17tell you about what education means to them? What, um, their definitions of successful outcomes are?
08:25Could you, could you share? Uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, I think our data also highlight a lot of this,
08:30and, um, you know, uh, in previous, uh, our previous research, it did, I mean, we did find that,
08:36you know, um, learning should be learning for the Orang-Azi students. And in fact,
08:41for all students this day should go beyond the classroom measures, classroom assessment, right?
08:45So the Orang-Azi parents and students that were, uh, involved in this project particularly,
08:52they look at education as a means for them to actually advance themselves and to actually, uh,
08:59to actually attain this upward social mobility, to solve problems in the community. They see this,
09:05uh, they see education beyond, like, um, academic performance at school. They, they see this as a
09:11way for them to, to really solve problems in, in their community. Just to give you an example from
09:16the project, right? So from, uh, one of the projects, we had two micro-solution projects in this,
09:22you know, the, the bigger projects and we have two micro-solution, uh, projects. So these projects focus
09:27on building skills. So, uh, one is on robotics, right? Uh, implemented by our implementing partner,
09:35the university, uh, Islamic university. So, um, and the other one is, uh, uh, they focus on the, um,
09:43entrepreneurship. So that is by the University of Science Islam Malaysia. So, uh, what is interesting
09:49here is that students, uh, our Orang-Azi students, uh, got the opportunity to, uh, learn skills that
09:56otherwise they wouldn't have been able to learn in, in normal classrooms, right? So, uh, then, uh, from the
10:03robotics group, they realized that, oh, STEM, all right, STEM education could really open doors to
10:08them. And they even found, you know, inspirations to actually learn how to solve the water issues
10:14in the community. Through the project. Through the project. And then now really, it's, it's still in
10:19the initial stage, of course, but, you know, with the, uh, coding skills that they learned from the
10:24projects, they, they were eager to actually, uh, try to find a solution to their water issue. Because
10:30this water issue sounds, you know, it sounds like, okay, water issue, but this water issue has been,
10:35you know, there forever. And that has been the source of a lot of, um, challenges in school.
10:41So, it's one of the, um, underlying, right? Correct.
10:45Access to kind of free flow and clean water. I see. Yeah. So they, it stopped them from attending
10:51schools. It's, it's, it, you know, it, it stopped them from, uh, being fully prepared for school
10:57and then not being able in, in our needs analysis and our subsequent, uh, engagements with parents.
11:03These, these stories have, I mean, um, we heard the stories again and again. So when, when, for example,
11:11a child, uh, doesn't have the opportunity to properly wash the uniform, it, it seems, it seems, uh, trivial
11:18to us, right? But then the child will go to school, you know, not, not fully ready, not fully, not in a fully
11:25clean uniform. And then, uh, they got, I mean, they get mocked, bullied by other friends and
11:31that actually stopped them. It's a negative experience for them and they don't want to go
11:35back to school. Yeah. And, and it, it perpetuates this, um, you know, misconception that saying
11:41or as the children do not know how to take care of their hygiene and, you know, whereas there is this
11:47underlying, bigger, bigger underlying problem where they didn't have enough, you know, they didn't have
11:52clean water source. Yeah. So, uh, so the project actually, um, gave them some hope, some, some ideas
12:00to solve these, you know, these prerennial problems within their own villages. Yeah. That's wonderful.
12:07Um, Dura, what about you? When you, um, as part of putting together this report, what were the, um, voices
12:14from the ground that you thought were quite interesting that you thought maybe, you know, this really
12:19highlights, um, the differences of how orang asli, parents and students themselves define inclusive
12:27education, separate from maybe mainstream expectations. It's pretty much similar to what
12:32was mentioned by Dr. Surya just now, how their expectations of education, it's not really based
12:39on classroom or exams-based learning, but really more on experiential learning, one that inculcates their
12:46cultures and traditions, one that, um, involves the, um, environment more and all. So, that's something
12:53that, um, any education, uh, future intervention should focus more on. Um, yeah, really, really
13:01integrating that cultural aspect. Both of you talked about the strength-based, um, education,
13:08and I think that's, that's important, right? So, um, moving, uh, shifting towards a strength-based
13:15narrative, moving away from this deficit lens, if I understand you correctly, uh, in the beginning,
13:20reframing the fact that orang asli are not marginalized victims. In fact, they have,
13:25they are holders of knowledge and, um, have profound strength. So, when we think about strength-based,
13:33culturally responsive education system for orang asli children, what would that look like in practice?
13:40Okay. It's a big question. Yeah, it's a big question. And I, I, I think since this is also
13:47our learning journey, uh, based on our engagement, uh, no one knows the full answer to that. But,
13:53of course, for this, um, system, for the education system to be fully responsive to the needs of oral
13:59RC students, we need to bring the oral RC communities, the parents, the community leaders,
14:04the students on board. Because then, like Dura mentioned just now, the integration of the local
14:09knowledge, local culture and values, uh, that is really important. But then who, who will know that
14:15better? And then, uh, um, unfortunately in the communities, you know, we are also losing our
14:21traditional knowledge because it, because it has not been, uh, valued enough in the past. And now,
14:28now we start to hear, we've started to hear, uh, things like, Oh, uh, indigenous practices are more
14:33sustainable. And, but in the past we were told that this is not valuable. And then we, we are losing
14:38that. So by actually inviting parents as, um, active, uh, participants, all right, co-creators,
14:46co-creators. So, uh, then, uh, we could actually learn together. Uh, we learn from them and they,
14:53in the process, same in the project, in the process, the community members also, uh, they had to do their
14:59homework. They, you know, they became the resource person. So even though we, we, we, we focus on,
15:05you know, uh, transferable skills, like, you know, 21st century skills, but they came together,
15:11they came in to bring the local knowledge. How could this be more related to the environment,
15:16to, you know, whatever traditions and values that the Orang Asli, the local Orang Asli? I, I, I would
15:21like to, yeah. Yes. That's a very good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, um, uh, there are 18 to 19
15:27Orang Asli groups, right? Yes. So Orang Asli indigenous peoples of, of, uh, Malaya and of Borneo are not
15:32homogenous. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That, that's a really interesting point. Yeah. If we want to talk about
15:38culturally responsive education, inclusive education for a non-homogenous indigenous group.
15:44Yeah. How do we ensure that it does cover all, all, uh, includes everyone, leaves no one behind?
15:51Okay. So, um, indigenous communities globally share, like, some similarities. The struggles are
15:58similar. If you look at the ones in Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, uh, we share similar struggles,
16:04but maybe different degrees of, you know, so, uh, in Malaysia, it's the same too. But, um, and,
16:11but the, the, the, the specific needs would differ according to the context, according to the groups,
16:17and also the, the locations, the geographical location is also an important factor here.
16:22So I think by having projects like this, for example, this project, right? So this provides
16:28some sort of a framework, like, like, um, the broad guidelines of how to work with the community.
16:33So it doesn't need to be specific. It can just be as broad and then define it, define it specifically
16:40for the needs. Yeah. Okay. So for future projects, for example, okay, uh, this project, uh, outlines the
16:47general guidelines, right? Like building trust and all that, that's at the heart of this project. But then,
16:53uh, before this could be, I mean, before this model could even be, uh, replicated or, you know,
17:00applied in other contexts, uh, another series of needs analysis need to be done because then that,
17:06let's say, let's say, now we focus on, uh, communities in Guamu Sang, the Temya community in Guamu Sang,
17:11right? So let's say if we want to move this to the Temuan community in, in Negeri Simbilan,
17:17for example, right? So the universal needs are there, but there are also specific needs.
17:23So the needs analysis part is actually important to, to really listen to the stories of the
17:28participating communities, our co-creators. That's an important part. In this project,
17:33we spend about one year talking to different stakeholders to actually, to really gain an
17:39understanding of what is really needed. Wow. Yeah. So a year of really just listening,
17:44listening, listening, um, can that be replicated? So the pilot is what has, has had its successes and
17:53has, uh, brought a lot of learning to this area, which if I understand correctly, has a lot of gaps
17:58in knowledge. Uh, when you think about the next step, can this model be replicated? Can it be scaled
18:08to a certain degree? Dura, Dr. Zaria? Well, that's not Dura. What did you think when you, uh,
18:13uh, were thinking about next steps for this project? Um, in terms of replicability, maybe not, um,
18:20each steps, but maybe just the, um, elements of co-creation, something that should be replicated,
18:27especially with the involvement of the communities themselves, and really involving them in each
18:32steps of the process. So that's something that we hope, uh, can be replicated. And would you like to add
18:39that? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. If we go back to the report, right, we launched three different
18:44reports. So the first report would actually be the best, uh, point of reference for the general
18:50framework because that, that's where we, uh, documented our journey. So, uh, the more general,
18:58you know, um, uh, uh, what was the learnings that we learned throughout the process, that's,
19:04that's more general there. And then I think, uh, the, the overall model could be replicated, but the,
19:12the, um, you know, the, for every step, especially the needs analysis would be slightly different
19:17because then, uh, the one year that we spent in Guamu Sang, they, I mean, that, that stage should also be
19:24done in a different, you know, because we highlighted in our project, we, we managed to,
19:29you know, after speaking to different stakeholders, we, uh, um, one of the top, uh, needs that, uh, was
19:36highlighted by the stakeholders is that, um, to highlight the strengths and talents of oral
19:41RSD students, right? So the strength-based skills. Yeah. And in other communities, there might be some
19:48other, yeah. So the overall structure, the overall format could be replicated, but then
19:54the needs, the needs, the specific needs has to be really, you know, uh, for, be focusing on the,
20:01the specific group. Okay. So this is, this is quite interesting. If, if we have, so this is a,
20:07this report, I hope it's a launching point to more conversation, more research, and hopefully more
20:13policy, um, action. What would, what is it that you're hoping that, um, people take away from this
20:21report? If you could, the one policy recommendation from your report that you think, let's do it now,
20:27let's do it tomorrow, let's do it yesterday. What, what we would say would create the most impact and
20:33is the most important, um, that's Syria. Okay. To me, uh, one of the, I think we table, uh, several
20:39recommendations, right? The one that I hope can be, you know, implemented as soon as possible is actually
20:46to strengthen the, uh, network that we, you know, the network was already there. The network by network,
20:52I mean, the different stakeholders, the funders, the people that you mentioned in the beginning,
20:56okay. The implementers, uh, schools, school leaders, teachers, and I think, um, a lot of people
21:04are doing a lot of things at the same time, the same things as well. Oh, there's overlap. Yes.
21:09Overlap, fragmented. Yeah. So, uh, each program will not have the full picture of everything,
21:18right? But then we, when we had our multi, uh, stakeholder engagement, we could see,
21:23okay, uh, Teach for Malaysia, for example, is doing this. And then, uh, Pemimpin GSL is doing this.
21:29Yayasan Kamuda is doing this. And then, you know, it's like piecing the puzzle together, right? So,
21:35we have a more complete picture of that. So, Ministry of Education has also really interesting
21:40and good programs, but then they are not together. And I think by, um, you know, really strengthening
21:48this, uh, this network, uh, it, it will help us to strengthen the intervention programs because we
21:55could learn from each other. We don't have to, you know, uh, reinvent the wheel from scratch. Right.
22:00And in fact, in this project, one of the, um, one of the outcomes that we are really happy about
22:06is the seed community, the establishment of the seed community, uh, of, uh, stakeholders in education,
22:13around seed education. So, we really hope that this seed community could be, you know,
22:19further strengthened. What is the seed community? Could you elaborate, Dura? The seed community is
22:24a network of, um, implementers, maybe NGOs, academicians who do work on the ground, funders included,
22:32in relation to orang as the education. So, we hope through this seed community,
22:36perhaps there can be some sharings of related, um, challenges, related advice and guidance so that
22:43you don't have to start all over again, can be some sharing of learnings.
22:47Yeah, yeah, definitely. Is there anything that you personally, the same question to you in terms of
22:52what policy you would like to see, Dura? Anything specific? I agree with, um, Dr. Surya about there
22:58needing to be more coordination between different stakeholders, but at the same time, I feel that
23:04it's important to also address the systemic issues as well because, um, you will see that the children,
23:11the parents are really passionate about the education and whatnot, but there's all this systemic
23:17barriers that, um, um, hinders them from participating equally as, like, non-orang asli communities,
23:25such as maybe transportation issues, land issues, electricity, and whatnot, and I feel that that's
23:31something very important to address first and foremost. Okay. Well, I want to thank both of you for
23:37coming on the show and sharing about the report, but also for all the hard work and heart and effort
23:44that's gone into this five-year-long project. Um, I hope that we get to see this inclusive
23:52education for our orang asli children. Thank you so much for being on the show. Appreciate your time.
23:57Thank you, Melissa. That's all we have for you on this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris,
24:02signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching. Good night.