Daniel Toribio, dirigente del partido Fuerza del Pueblo, manifestó que hay que recordar que en medio del COVID-19 se dieron centenares de visas a nacionales haitianos, referente a los acontecimientos del pasado domingo en el Hoyo de friusa y la posición del gobierno ante este.
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00:00Let's see, the week has begun, the month has ended, and as always, we are here with all of you on Telematutino 11,
00:07grateful to the Lord who gives us the strength, the health, and the will to reach your homes.
00:13Good morning, Jacqueline Morel.
00:14Good morning, Ramón. Good morning, Dominican Republic.
00:16The week begins, ends in March, and Telematutino 11 begins.
00:20As always, it is a pleasure to know that we are with you and that we count on your tuning.
00:25As always, we are going to comment on some of the current issues,
00:28and today we have as a guest Mr. Daniel Toribio,
00:32who is an economist and has held important positions in the governments of the Dominican Liberation Party,
00:38and is currently in charge of the Secretary of Economy of the People's Strength Party.
00:42We invite you to join us this morning.
00:45And well, practically in the morning, or the topic is reduced to what happened yesterday in the Hoyo de Friusa,
00:50which, of course, had a lot of media influence in the previous days.
00:56Many people, a lot of order, that has a lot of readings.
01:01I think that perhaps this can be the germ, the embryo of movements or of a crusade at the national level
01:11that raises awareness and makes contractors, corrupt military, traffickers,
01:20and the government itself understand that we have to comply with immigration,
01:24because that's what it's about, to make the law so simple that if they infiltrated, if they didn't infiltrate,
01:32the truth is that there was police brutality, as always.
01:37Dozens of Dominicans were arrested and the government produced a statement
01:43that in my opinion what it does is that it justifies that police brutality.
01:49Well, Ramón, look, this march called for by the old Dominican order,
01:55there were many opinions about it,
02:00and the fact that it was a group of nationalists
02:04who tried to visualize the issue of illegal immigration to Haiti in the Dominican Republic
02:10and a call for attention to the competent organizations and the country in general
02:16that we have to face this situation.
02:19As much as the government has made efforts in international forums to call attention
02:24to the fact that few or no government has come to the aid of the Haitian people,
02:30and we have the issue here in the Dominican Republic.
02:33And the government has made efforts to deport, but the deportations have not been enough.
02:38And this march called attention to the fact that we have to see this problem.
02:42I agree with you that the responsibility is shared by the government,
02:48by the businessmen, by the authorities and by many other elements
02:55that have made it possible for the situation to be as it is today.
03:01So there was a route, I have read a lot of information about it, Ramón,
03:06of various media, and there was a route approved by the Ministry of the Interior.
03:12They accompanied each other, well, there we see the officers of the National Police,
03:16and it was guarded by more than a thousand agents, as expected,
03:21given the danger that it incurs because of the heated spirits that were on both sides.
03:30So there was a route and the route went very well by the old Dominican order,
03:35until a group of infiltrators, hooded, wanted to enter another sector
03:41that was not within the route of the march.
03:45And the police caught them with tear gas bombs.
03:49I don't know if there was a beating, there is always a fight,
03:53because they say that the hooded began to throw stones at the police officers
03:59and the police reacted.
04:02Wherever you want, Ramón, look, they throw tear gas and water,
04:06and if they throw it at the police, the police respond.
04:09If it is true that they raped and that infiltrators who were not of the old Dominican order
04:15violated the route of the march, the police had to react.
04:18Yes, but also, the first thing is that it was a march that many people who were not,
04:24for example, I saw Castillo Pantaleón, and I saw a number of people
04:27who are not necessarily from that nationalist movement,
04:31but who are identified with the cause.
04:34What is the cause, gentlemen?
04:36That we have to stop the income of Haitians, they are going to steal our country.
04:42And then all this had a series of pro-Haitians,
04:45who like now have to have a low profile because there is no financing.
04:49You see that, look, there is going to be a dead man, tourism is going to be affected.
04:54No, no, tourism is going to be affected.
04:59Because that migration, sooner or later, is going to damage tourism as it is going to damage the country.
05:04So we have to think about the future, not the short term.
05:09I insist, I am positive, I saw the movement, I saw the number of people.
05:15And a call for attention.
05:17And I think that this must be multiplied, peacefully,
05:22because this is a problem of the government, of the contractors,
05:28of the corrupt military, and of the traffickers.
05:33Yesterday also showed that Friusa is inexpugnable,
05:38that this is already a Haitian territory within the Dominican Republic,
05:43because for some reason it was delayed and it was not possible to enter.
05:46By the way, we knew it, I did not know it.
05:50I thought that the march was to cover all of Friusa.
05:54But maybe there was a route drawn, and that is what the old order says.
06:00The route was not to penetrate an area of Friusa.
06:06And there were already fences there and there were elements to prevent it,
06:10and military to prevent it.
06:13That is Haiti.
06:14And here there are already 440 establishments that are Haiti,
06:19that neither the authorities nor the Dominicans can enter there.
06:23So it is true that we have a government that cares more about what happens in Haiti,
06:29that has done more in the international sphere in favor of Haiti,
06:34than what it has done here.
06:37Because the deportations, that is media.
06:41The borders are still open.
06:44The rioters continue to enter, and they do not enter on foot, they bring them.
06:50They skip checkpoints, where a common citizen is stopped.
06:55They stop you at a checkpoint.
06:56You say, how do the checkpoints pass, the rioters?
07:00The Haitians from time to time catch them.
07:02Now, when have you seen a court condemning a trafficker?
07:06Never.
07:08They take him to prison.
07:09They take his vehicles, but they continue on their own.
07:13So really, internally, we are not doing anything to stop this migratory wave,
07:20which is already consuming health, consuming education,
07:24and which is going to be a source of crime and violence,
07:27as we saw last week in Huero Alto.
07:31Because that is the natural process.
07:33When there is no source of employment for Haitians,
07:37what is left for them?
07:38To commit crimes, to steal, to create gangs here in the Dominican Republic.
07:44And that is what some people do not want to see.
07:47Well, Ramón, look, this is a problem that we really have to see together.
07:53And it is a problem that has been alerted,
07:55that has been occurring in the country for decades.
07:59We have this problem for more than 30, 50 years,
08:02and immigration is growing more and more.
08:04And it is a shared responsibility of this government
08:07and of the governments that preceded it,
08:10which did not do anything either.
08:11Because all those Haitians who are here illegally
08:13did not come four years ago or five years ago.
08:17They have been here for 10, 15, 20 years, many of them.
08:21And the situation has not been resolved,
08:23because there has not been enough political will.
08:25Why? Because there is a big business there,
08:29and there are people who the government owes political favors
08:33and do not dare to face those business groups
08:35that hire Haitians, that profit from Haitians,
08:39and do not make the government dare to face them.
08:43Last Monday, when they asked about Friusa,
08:46I said, yes, there are many Haitians there,
08:49because there is a lot of demand for labor for the constructions.
08:52So we have to guarantee those constructions
08:55that they have that cheap labor.
08:57That's what it's all about.
08:59And then you do, in the media,
09:02catch 10, catch 30, catch 50,
09:05deport them, and they cross the border again.
09:08It's a kind of game,
09:10in which the military benefits,
09:13deported to the border, the military in the checkpoints,
09:16and the traffickers.
09:17And the businessmen.
09:19So who is left to take responsibility?
09:22Although it is shared, who has more power?
09:24The government.
09:25The authorities, who must lower their guard
09:27and must sit down with the sectors.
09:29And the issue should not be politicized.
09:31It has to be a country policy,
09:33of knowing how many immigrants we want.
09:35And I'm going to tell you one thing, Ramón.
09:38What the agricultural sector needs,
09:40what is needed for the construction labor,
09:47let them say it.
09:48We need 500,000, 200,000, whatever,
09:52but that there is an order
09:54and that someone takes responsibility for them.
09:55That's the point.
09:58And the rest, that they don't qualify, that they don't.
10:00That they are formalized,
10:01that they are given a card,
10:02that they are given a visa,
10:04that they register social security,
10:07pay me social security.
10:09And when the work is finished,
10:12or the collection is finished,
10:13back to Haiti.
10:15But the problem is that they stay.
10:16And every time,
10:17when there is no source of employment,
10:20you see the Haitians,
10:22the Haitians have cut off the informal labor,
10:24the sale of fruit, the sale in the corners,
10:27everything that already means informality.
10:30They have displaced the Dominicans
10:32from those informal jobs.
10:33So it is true that it is a problem
10:35that has been dragged on for years,
10:36but it has worsened,
10:38it has worsened after the earthquake,
10:41and it has worsened with the murder of Juvenel Moïse.
10:45So now it is up to this government.
10:48President Luis Abinader in the campaign,
10:50that is in the networks,
10:51in interviews he said
10:53that this problem was solved in two minutes,
10:55sorry, in two months.
10:57Because here there could not be a single illegal.
11:00Fortunately that is in the networks,
11:02in interviews.
11:03So let it act,
11:05let it act accordingly,
11:06because the Pope is the one who falls.
11:08It is not Leonel, it is not Danilo,
11:10it is not Vargas, no.
11:11It is the one who is governing.
11:14And history,
11:16if here in this country in ten years
11:19there are more Haitians than Dominicans,
11:21history is about President Abinader,
11:24who is going to be alive, by the way,
11:25because he is very young.
11:26So we have to act.
11:29The international forums are no longer worth it,
11:31because the international community,
11:33the whole world is in its own problem.
11:37Canada is in its own problem.
11:40Mexico is in its own problem.
11:43Europe too.
11:44So if before Haiti did not worry,
11:47much less does it worry now.
11:48So the problem is ours.
11:50Exactly, we must be in our own problem.
11:54And many agree that the main problem
11:58is that uncontrolled immigration.
12:00But we have to help the President,
12:03Abinader,
12:04and the team that accompanies him.
12:06And this is a job that Ramón,
12:07there has to be awareness
12:10from all the actors involved.
12:12It cannot be that you just pinch your pocket
12:15and a group of businessmen
12:18or military men or people
12:19who do not care about the country.
12:22So we all have to get together
12:24with this cause
12:26and accompany the government
12:27and demand that the government
12:28act accordingly.
12:29But to accompany him.
12:30And I insist that the responsibility
12:33is shared.
12:35Now, the one who has the pan in his hands,
12:37the one who has the power now,
12:38is President Abinader.
12:40He can sit with the businessmen.
12:45Even in the Economic and Social Council,
12:48we will sit with representatives
12:49of the builders,
12:51of the agricultural producers.
12:53Gentlemen, what is needed?
12:57And we are going to draw the framework.
13:01There was a time,
13:03there was a time in February,
13:05I don't remember if it was 1924 or 1923,
13:06when the businessmen were given a deadline
13:08to formalize.
13:11And that deadline passed
13:12and it was not done.
13:14Because it is not that, let's say,
13:16it is needed at the hands of the workers.
13:18Unfortunately.
13:19It is needed.
13:20You have to look for a way.
13:23Now it is needed in construction,
13:24it is needed in the collection,
13:26because it is a salary that the Dominicans
13:28no longer work for that salary,
13:29just like in the United States.
13:30In the United States, the American
13:32no longer works for you in construction
13:33nor does he work for you on a farm.
13:35Because that salary no longer goes
13:37according to the status
13:39or the standard of living of the American.
13:42And something similar happens
13:44in the Dominican Republic.
13:45So, let's go to what is asked
13:47for legalization and an action
13:50on the border.
13:50Because there is no one who does not tell me.
13:52A president of the Republic
13:53made a request to the Armed Forces.
13:54You don't let me in as a Haitian,
13:57if you don't go outside.
13:59Look, it is fulfilled.
14:00It is fulfilled.
14:02What is needed is political will.
14:04That has never existed.
14:06That has never existed.
14:07Ah, well.
14:07And it is not that you have to give it,
14:11the number of workers that are needed
14:13and more than what is needed.
14:15Because, of course,
14:16the more labor there is, the cheaper it is.
14:18It is a matter of supply and demand.
14:19The cheaper it is.
14:20The cheaper they work
14:21or the more hours they work,
14:23including the Sundays
14:25when you see constructions
14:26and you see Haitians working on Sundays.
14:28The Dominican is not going to work on Sundays.
14:31On the other hand, there is a message
14:33on Twitter,
14:35no, I still have it in X,
14:38of Dr. Leonel Fernández,
14:40where he draws attention
14:43and expresses his energetic rejection
14:45of the disproportionate use
14:47of the force perpetrated by members of the army
14:49and the national police
14:52in what is a legitimate claim
14:54of the Dominicans of greater efficiency
14:56by the current government
14:59in the deportation of undocumented citizens.
15:04This is a topic that is inevitable to politicize.
15:06Well, if a politician thinks so,
15:08it is said to be politicized,
15:09but well, it is a topic
15:10that we are all commenting on,
15:12the commentators,
15:14with different nuances,
15:15because there are some
15:16who see the infiltration
15:18that was the one that provoked it,
15:20and they don't really see
15:23the beauty of all this,
15:24that the national consciousness
15:25is already awakening.
15:27The national consciousness is awakening,
15:29and that is needed.
15:31I would have liked for Dr. Fernández
15:33to call for a dialogue on that topic,
15:36because he was in the government for 12 years
15:40and he did not deport those who had to be deported,
15:42nor did he do what he had to do in that sense.
15:44Look, with all due respect,
15:46and with all that I recognize
15:47in the work of the government of Dr. León Fernández.
15:49But the problem, Jaqueline,
15:50was not the problem that was now,
15:52nor when Danilo, nor when Valencia.
15:54The problem is serious,
15:57but if what has to be done is not done,
16:00in 5 years it will be worse,
16:02and in 10 years it will be worse.
16:03Of course,
16:05but I would have liked for that
16:06to have been accompanied by a proposal,
16:08a call for dialogue,
16:10and to politicize this topic,
16:12which is a country topic,
16:14and to look for a solution,
16:18which is rather a political will,
16:20as you say, express.
16:22But it is the president who has to take action,
16:25the president is the one who has to call for dialogue.
16:27But this is not a problem of dialogue,
16:29this is a problem of
16:30let's comply with the immigration law.
16:33It seems so simple,
16:35but it is to comply with the immigration law.
16:37In the 80-20,
16:39if it is not in the 80-20,
16:40in the 50-50.
16:42But it is to comply with the law,
16:44it is what the law says,
16:45that here cannot be an undocumented person,
16:49and there are 3 million undocumented people.
16:52And they are not,
16:53and they are not in any country in the world,
16:55but we have to work for our goals,
16:58with clear goals,
17:00because no country has achieved that,
17:02is free of undocumented people,
17:04neither the goal,
17:05nor any country with all the technology,
17:07and with all the possible resources.
17:10But we have it very difficult,
17:12being an island,
17:13we have no way,
17:15we have to act with much more energy,
17:17so that they do not take our territory.
17:19And especially in a country so unequal
17:22to the Dominican Republic,
17:24the most deforested country in the world,
17:26and that will bring more misery and poverty to this country.
17:30Why are you importing poverty?
17:32In a country where there is poverty,
17:35regardless of the figure they want to present to you,
17:37that there are 3% of indigent,
17:39no, no.
17:40Here you have a large vulnerable population,
17:44that with a flu,
17:45goes from middle class to poor,
17:48with a terminal illness,
17:50a member of a family,
17:51that that family loses the house
17:53and loses their property.
17:55That is poverty.
17:56Vulnerability, then,
17:58you who are a poor country,
18:00having to carry,
18:02with a country that is poorer than you,
18:04that is, that is, that is...
18:05That is to sink it into the hole,
18:06into the hole.
18:07Of course.
18:08To drag it into the abyss.
18:10And that is what we must see.
18:13By the way, Dr. López Fernández
18:15has a very interesting article today,
18:16that says, what happens with the dollar?
18:18Very, very interesting.
18:22Telematutino 11 interview,
18:24important people,
18:25to deal with more important issues,
18:26we are accompanied by the initiator Daniel Toribio.
18:28He was Secretary of Finance
18:31when he was Secretary,
18:32but he was Minister of Finance,
18:33and he was also administrator
18:35of the Reserve Bank,
18:36apart from other functions.
18:38He is currently in charge
18:40of the Economic Secretary
18:41of the People's Force.
18:44Daniel, welcome.
18:45Thank you, thank you.
18:46Good morning.
18:46Thank you, Jacqueline.
18:48I want to start with a topic
18:50that is economic and is not economic,
18:52but it is the obligatory topic of today,
18:54which is the march of the old organization,
18:59what is it called?
19:00The old Dominican Order.
19:01The old Dominican Order,
19:02what happened yesterday,
19:03and what is the focus of the topic of migration?
19:07Look, the first thing I want to say,
19:11I came as a happy medium to the program,
19:15until I saw a statement in the newspapers,
19:18and it has to do with what Jacqueline said,
19:22and you in the comment.
19:23Look, I'm going to read this statement
19:26from the Dominican government,
19:28to see if you don't have to be bothered
19:31by what is being said.
19:31Listen to what it says.
19:33That is why, in the last four years,
19:35we have remained busy
19:36addressing the issue responsibly,
19:39and we will continue to do so
19:40on the topic of migration.
19:41And he adds,
19:42no other government has defended
19:44Dominicanity more than ours.
19:47The Dominican government is saying now,
19:50our actions have been guided
19:51by the commitment to sovereignty
19:53and national security.
19:54When you hear these kinds of statements,
19:59and Jacqueline and I say
20:01that we have to call for a dialogue,
20:03do you think that's just a statement?
20:07It's not true.
20:08Look, we forget
20:15that with COVID-19,
20:18and with the closed consulates,
20:19hundreds of thousands of visas were given.
20:26But also, that border
20:33is a rotating door.
20:35That statement is missing a little bit.
20:39That statement should tell you
20:41that the Dominican government
20:42will be attentive to the reactions
20:44and the concerns of the Dominican people
20:47regarding this issue.
20:49But when you hear a statement,
20:51first, it's a rotating door.
20:53Second, here we are talking about a wall
20:56that no one knows about.
20:58Look, everyone here
20:59applauded the wall.
21:01No one knows what level it is.
21:03The wall was smart,
21:04and I think it's a huge wall.
21:06It's not a wall,
21:07it's a cyclonic fence.
21:09With a fingernail,
21:10they can remove things.
21:13And you tell me,
21:14because Haitians are not seen
21:17entering the country.
21:18Because for me,
21:19it's okay.
21:19The hole in the frieze is a problem.
21:22But it's a flow.
21:23If you tell me it's a stock,
21:26and we're going to solve this,
21:28and we're going to get rid of the illegals,
21:30and we're going to organize.
21:30No, no.
21:31My fear is not that it's an inventory.
21:35No, it's a flow
21:37of people who enter every day.
21:39When you see the videos,
21:42I just saw them.
21:43You can see the videos entering.
21:44Entering.
21:45But entering means
21:47four in one engine.
21:48Look, an experience happened to me.
21:50One day they stopped me
21:52to check.
21:53What do they do?
21:54Of the retainers.
21:55Of the retainers.
21:56And I,
21:57under the glass.
22:00Under the glass.
22:02I was with a driver,
22:03under the glass.
22:03And I tell the man,
22:05explain to me,
22:07how is it that Haitians pass through here,
22:10and you don't see them?
22:12I always tell him,
22:14the guard,
22:15who seems to know me,
22:17tells me,
22:18they're going backwards.
22:21I say, but if you know they're going backwards,
22:23why don't you stop them?
22:25I mean,
22:28this is what I have to say.
22:29And as Ramon,
22:31in a comment you made,
22:33if there is political will,
22:34it is true that a Haitian does not pass through the border.
22:38Because how many cross,
22:39for you to arrive from Dajabón,
22:42from Delias Piña,
22:43from Pedernales to Friusa,
22:45how many crossings do you not have to cross?
22:47Now, Mr. Toribio,
22:48as you have been in politics for so many years,
22:51and you know the country,
22:52you have toured it many times,
22:54and you have been in countless meetings,
22:56political committees,
22:57different commissions.
22:59Why that migratory issue,
23:01which is not of now,
23:02never came first
23:04in the agenda of governments?
23:05Because it did not have the magnitude
23:07of the problem it has now.
23:09But they let it grow.
23:10No, no, no excuses.
23:11They did not have the magnitude.
23:13When you hear
23:14that most of those who are being born in hospitals
23:17are Haitian midwives,
23:22that they come,
23:23that there is a tour
23:26that they bring to the hospitals.
23:28I mean,
23:29I want to say the following.
23:32Yes, there is a certain level of responsibility,
23:34but what has happened in the last five years,
23:37that is huge.
23:41But most of those who are here now
23:43came in the last five years.
23:45No.
23:46There are many who have been here for 10, 15, 20 years.
23:49But the midwives who are giving birth in hospitals.
23:51It's a recent phenomenon.
23:52No, and they also did not come,
23:54as the Venezuelan Negro says,
23:56there is a man, what does he do here?
23:57Haitian.
23:58A Haitian.
24:00They did not come on a plane to Ejazo.
24:04I mean, why does he say he came on a plane to Ejazo?
24:07They did not come on a plane to Ejazo.
24:10They came from all over the country.
24:12Because what I...
24:13Look,
24:15you say we are not going to politicize,
24:16and I agree that the issue should not be politicized.
24:20Listen to me.
24:20Whose responsibility is it?
24:22When you hear a statement from the Dominican government
24:25that they are the ones who have done the worst,
24:28none of the people who are watching me
24:30believe that.
24:32So you can't tell people
24:34what people know is not true,
24:37because then you are losing credibility
24:42on the subject,
24:43and also taking away allies.
24:46But I had called years ago,
24:49alerts, even from some of your allies
24:52before in the old party of the Dominican Liberation,
24:55who warned that immigration had to be stopped
24:58long before the earthquake,
25:00and after the earthquake.
25:02And this was not paid attention to.
25:05It's true.
25:07And you would see the PRM,
25:09the Women's Revolutionary Party,
25:11say that in two years they solved the problem.
25:15And five years have passed, and the problem has worsened.
25:18So, because the problem...
25:19Look,
25:20many times
25:22it's a matter of credibility.
25:24I mean, you can't say things
25:26that you are not going to do, nor can you do.
25:28And when you give a statement saying
25:31there are many people in Frusa
25:33because there are many hotels that are being built,
25:35it means that you allow them to go to Frusa
25:38to build the hotels.
25:39That's what you are modifying.
25:42So, look,
25:45I buy the idea that
25:47there has been a lot of dialogue.
25:50You think,
25:51you think
25:53a president of the republic
25:54doesn't call the Minister of the Armed Forces
25:56and say,
25:57don't send an Haitian across the border,
25:59it's going to happen.
26:01One, one.
26:01I'm not talking about 10, 15, 20.
26:04One doesn't happen.
26:05But, Dr. Uribio,
26:06and of the 20 years that the PLD and Lionel governed,
26:09why didn't they call the Minister of the Armed Forces
26:12and tell him, don't let Haitians cross the border?
26:14Because it wasn't the level of scandal that exists now.
26:16So, I'm going to tell you the following.
26:18But, Mr. David,
26:18how many years has Pérez Grim Castillo been warning,
26:21Castillo Pantaleón and others,
26:24warning about the issue?
26:25Not even now.
26:26And why has it increased now?
26:29We have five years of a government
26:31that God said he was going to solve it,
26:33and he hasn't solved it.
26:34Because, look,
26:35I don't like, really,
26:39to take responsibility.
26:40You knew what the problem was,
26:41you, President of the Republic,
26:43your party,
26:44or you didn't know the problem.
26:46And you said you were going to solve it.
26:47As all politicians say,
26:49they're going to solve it.
26:50Wait, what do you mean?
26:51That what he said, he knew he couldn't solve it?
26:53No.
26:54No, that's what you're saying.
26:55No, no, no, no, no.
26:57The point is that here
26:59all politicians get used to saying one thing,
27:03so you're saying that the president,
27:05when he said it, he knew he couldn't do it?
27:07It looks like he ran into a wall
27:09and couldn't do it.
27:10No, you're saying
27:12that all politicians do that,
27:13and that God was the president.
27:15What do you mean?
27:16That if God was the president,
27:17it means that you're saying
27:19that he knew he couldn't do it, and he said it.
27:22And you voted,
27:23I mean, those who voted for the PRM
27:25voted on a speech
27:26that he knew he wasn't going to fulfill.
27:28That's what we're talking about.
27:29Yes, that's fine.
27:30I agree.
27:32What I'm saying is that it's the responsibility
27:34of all governments,
27:35not just this one,
27:37and that we have to be cautious
27:39and look at the issue holistically
27:41and put things in their place.
27:42But when you hear...
27:43Because we can't say
27:44that the problem was five years ago.
27:46That's my point, that's all.
27:47No, but when you hear that the government,
27:49Jacqueline, I'm telling you,
27:50now that it's the government
27:52that has done the most in the Dominican Republic
27:54for migration,
27:55it's not helping
27:56a conversation about it.
27:59Do you think that helps?
28:01Do you think that helps
28:02to be told like that
28:04when you know that
28:06when there was a...
28:10the consulates were closed,
28:11they were giving out hundreds of thousands of visas,
28:14when you see everything...
28:15This has no justification.
28:20Yes, economically.
28:22It has no justification.
28:24Economically, of course it does.
28:26This is a bipolar position.
28:28No, no, no, no, no.
28:30Why economically?
28:31I know cases,
28:33because I was told by people
28:35who put visa stamps in their houses.
28:40But the problem, for example,
28:4215 or 20 years ago it wasn't so serious.
28:43Of course.
28:44I was an engineer at that time,
28:45and in a construction site you had
28:47five or six workers,
28:50or excavators,
28:52but the rest were Dominicans.
28:54Today in a construction site
28:55everyone is Haitian,
28:57even the master is Haitian.
28:59So that gives you an idea
29:00of how the problem is.
29:02Ten years ago you didn't hear
29:03about the problem of apartheid.
29:05That wasn't heard.
29:06That wasn't heard.
29:08At least as far as I remember.
29:09Or it was so small
29:11that the press didn't pay attention to it.
29:14But let's go to the economy.
29:16I know you remember it.
29:17To the economy.
29:20What is your vision?
29:23Because it's not just the dollar.
29:25It's the interest rate,
29:26and apparently there's a slowdown
29:29in growth.
29:30I'm crazy to see the results
29:31of February.
29:32They've been delayed a little.
29:33But how do you see the economic
29:35picture
29:37vis-à-vis what the government says
29:39and what the monetary fund says
29:40and what the risk classifiers say?
29:43Look,
29:48I've been doing the task
29:50of what's been happening
29:52in the Dominican economy.
29:53Let's understand what's happening.
29:55In 2022,
29:57the economy grew by 2.3.
30:01Sorry, in 2023.
30:032.2.
30:042.2, 2.3.
30:07So,
30:08the government authorities
30:10put the panic button on
30:12and said,
30:14this can't happen in 2024.
30:19And from the central bank
30:21two expansive policies were drawn.
30:23The first expansive policy was
30:26not to buy back
30:28the letters that were won,
30:32the bonds that were won,
30:34the Dominican peso bonds
30:36of the central bank,
30:37and to lower
30:40the rate of economic policy.
30:42Look,
30:43I, for example,
30:45what
30:48has happened,
30:48because I have here
30:50a graph that I always like to talk about,
30:52what has happened,
30:55the central bank has lowered
30:57from 8.
30:58Let's show it to the camera.
30:59Yes.
31:01With which camera?
31:02Here, with this one.
31:04Well.
31:05But it lowered from 8.5
31:07to 5.75,
31:10the rate of economic policy.
31:12But it also left
31:14around 200 billion pesos
31:17in circulation.
31:18What year was that?
31:20In the year 2024.
31:21Twenty-four.
31:22Last year.
31:23We reached a billion and a bit of peso.
31:26Of debt.
31:26A billion and two hundred thousand.
31:28And then it went down to 800,000.
31:29Exactly.
31:30That happened.
31:31And you say, well,
31:34what should we expect from that?
31:36If there is a lot of money in circulation,
31:38it means that
31:40the interest rate should go down.
31:43That's the first thing.
31:44Because the purpose of that
31:46is to lower the interest rate
31:48in such a way
31:49that investors can have money
31:51to make their investments.
31:54Now, what happened to the interest rate?
31:57That in May
32:02of 2023,
32:05it went up
32:07from 12.41 to 16.
32:11So, what we should expect
32:13is not this trend
32:14that is here, going down.
32:17I mean, this trend
32:18is what we should expect.
32:19But what happened
32:20was a trend going up.
32:22So, and you say, well,
32:25with so much money,
32:27the interest rate doesn't go down.
32:29Because it didn't go down.
32:30I mean, there's no way.
32:30Even, I remember,
32:32there's a word
32:33used by economists
32:36and by the monetary authorities.
32:39That the transmission belt,
32:41The transmission mechanism.
32:42The transmission mechanism.
32:43It's a slow transmission mechanism.
32:45Very slow delivery.
32:46It hasn't been transmitted.
32:49And what are the factors?
32:51That's where I'm going.
32:53Now, what do you do
32:54with that excess money?
32:57Either you lend it cheaply
33:01or you look for dollars.
33:06What did people do?
33:10What did they do then?
33:12They started raising the exchange rate
33:15from here to here.
33:18Because those pesos
33:19went to look for dollars.
33:23But what does that explain, Mr. Toribio?
33:25Could it be that the investments
33:27that have been made in the Dominican Republic
33:28in recent times
33:30haven't brought in dollars
33:31and have been financed
33:33with money from the local market?
33:35If you take from the authorities
33:37of the government,
33:38you're going to understand
33:39that here the investments
33:41are growing enormously
33:42and are bringing in dollars.
33:44But the reality is,
33:45I mean, the numbers
33:47But transiting.
33:49That's what I don't know.
33:51Or being made with
33:53financed money from here.
33:55Yes, but the reality is
33:56that that excess money
33:59that was circulating in the economy,
34:01that drop in the rate of economic policy,
34:04what produced an increase
34:05in the demand for dollars.
34:07And that produces
34:08an increase in the exchange rate.
34:10But also, what happened?
34:13Because that's the other thing.
34:16The reserves.
34:18So, even though
34:21the Central Bank lost its reserves.
34:24What does it mean that it lost?
34:26It went from 16,000 to 12,000
34:28reserves in January.
34:30From 10,000 million dollars
34:31to 12,000 million dollars.
34:33And you say,
34:34what does it mean that it lost its reserves?
34:36Remember,
34:37every time the Central Bank
34:41sells 100 dollars,
34:43that is, it loses its reserves,
34:45they are circulation weights.
34:50Because it gives you weight
34:52for the dollars.
34:54You say, well,
34:56the purpose was
34:57circulation weights,
34:59it wasn't lowering the exchange rate,
35:00it was the exchange rate going up.
35:03I did an exercise,
35:05an exercise of those exercises
35:06that we like to do,
35:07the economists,
35:09about the tendency.
35:10The government,
35:12the Ministry of Economy and Development,
35:13and the Central Bank understood
35:16that at the end of the year,
35:18the exchange rate would be 63.11,
35:2063.20, something like that.
35:23On Friday it was 63.40,
35:28plus a 15,
35:29because there's a 15,
35:30I didn't know that they always add a 15
35:33additional to that,
35:34which is like a bonus
35:36that you have to pay to get the dollars.
35:37There's a marginal rate.
35:38There's a rate, exactly,
35:40there's a marginal rate there,
35:41but well, let's say,
35:45if it was 63.11 in December,
35:48and you have 63.40,
35:51I did some calculations and I estimated
35:53that in the most positive possibilities
36:00it could reach 67.
36:03In December.
36:04In December.
36:05The most negative, in 72,
36:08there's an average of 70,
36:10neutral between positive and negative.
36:15And that, now what happens?
36:17You say, well,
36:18what has the Central Bank been doing?
36:22Because you also have to understand
36:23everything that has been happening around.
36:25The Central Bank realized
36:27that there was a lot of money in circulation,
36:29apparently,
36:31and on February 12,
36:35it decided to start selling letters
36:38from the Central Bank.
36:41That day,
36:43and it says, I have an issue of 40,000,
36:45an issue of letters of 40,000,
36:47that is, of bonuses from the Central Bank,
36:50and I'm going to sell 10,000.
36:54It happens that he couldn't sell those 10,000,
36:56because he wanted them to pay him
36:57an interest rate of 8%.
37:00And the market asked for 12.
37:03It declared it deserted.
37:07Seven days later, it called again,
37:09it could only sell 3,000 and something,
37:11because they weren't close.
37:14Nowadays, what people were claiming
37:16was 11 and 12%.
37:18There is also a problem
37:20that has to do with the relationship
37:24between the Treasury and the Central Bank.
37:27At the time the Central Bank was issuing bonuses,
37:32Hacienda issued bonuses.
37:35Hacienda issued bonuses
37:37and sold them more expensively,
37:39to buy them back,
37:41at 10%, but when you apply the...
37:45Yes, because Hacienda doesn't pay taxes.
37:47It doesn't pay taxes, exactly,
37:48so the rate is much higher.
37:51So, when those two elements coincided,
37:53liquidity went to Hacienda
37:57and not to the Central Bank.
37:59Later, the Central Bank
38:00understood that it wasn't going to have
38:05anyone to buy a rate of 8%,
38:09not even 9%, not even 10%,
38:11and it's almost 12% at the moment.
38:14And I tell you, if that's the case,
38:17if that's the case, and it was the case,
38:20what's going to happen with this interest rate
38:22that has been rising in recent months,
38:26without those elements?
38:28Obviously, the rate will continue
38:29to go up and down.
38:31Let's take a break,
38:32because there's a lot of information at the same time,
38:34and we'll be back in a few minutes with Daniel Toribio.
38:38We continue with Telematutino 11.
38:39This morning we are talking
38:40with Mr. Daniel Toribio, an economist
38:43in charge of the Secretary of Economy
38:45of the People's Strength Party.
38:47Mr. Toribio, well, you already gave us
38:48a panoramic of some of the important variables
38:52of which economists are aware
38:55of economic factors.
38:58Now, we're almost in April.
39:01It's been almost a quarter of a year.
39:06What do you expect for the next few months?
39:09Because there are rumors
39:11that many sectors are paralyzed,
39:14the real estate sector,
39:15investors have some apprehension
39:18in making investments, in construction,
39:22that there is a kind of stagnation
39:29in all projects due to local and international uncertainty.
39:34Look...
39:36What can you tell us about this?
39:38There are two issues.
39:39One, in local terms,
39:41for example, I saw a statistic
39:44that states that by December
39:4625% of the works, of the permits,
39:50of the works to be built by the private sector
39:54fell by 25%.
39:58Which is a lot.
40:00And you're talking about uncertainty
40:02because everything we've been talking about
40:04is the local aspect.
40:06But there is an international element
40:08that is playing, and will play,
40:10that weighs.
40:11And that will weigh in the future.
40:13For example,
40:15the Federal Reserve of Atlanta
40:19states that, for example,
40:23that in this quarter, January-March,
40:26growth will be minus 2.8% in the United States.
40:30Minus 2.8%.
40:32Obviously, it doesn't enter what is called
40:36a recession period,
40:38because the recession has to be
40:40three consecutive quarters below zero.
40:44But obviously,
40:45it generates a certain level of concern.
40:48The very fact, for example,
40:50of all these arrangements that never end,
40:53never apply,
40:54but will have a great impact
40:55in inflationary terms in the United States.
40:58Because it happens,
40:59and it's an issue that has to be understood,
41:02that, for example,
41:05the relations with Mexico.
41:07In Mexico, a piece of Mexico
41:11to build a vehicle,
41:12A part.
41:13A part, no,
41:14it comes in like ten times.
41:18This part is done in the United States,
41:20this part is done in Mexico,
41:21this part is done in the United States,
41:23and this is added there.
41:25So what happens?
41:26The intention of the American government
41:28and President Trump
41:29is that 25% does not apply to that.
41:33And the president,
41:33President Sheinbaum of Mexico says,
41:36wait,
41:37it applies to everything.
41:39Imagine you,
41:4125% there, 25% here.
41:43That's going to be...
41:45So there is also a drop
41:48in the expectations
41:49of the North American consumer.
41:51These elements,
41:53well, this Friday,
41:56Standard & Poor's fell by 2%,
42:00Dow Jones 500 points down,
42:03that is, in the week.
42:05All this,
42:05what you are saying,
42:06there is a generalized fear
42:08among investors,
42:10in the North American economic sector,
42:13that there could be a crisis.
42:16And if that,
42:17but if you add that...
42:18That is replicated in other countries.
42:20No, obviously.
42:21In the Dominican Republic,
42:23those fears have implications
42:26in the investment,
42:27but there is one thing
42:28that maybe people,
42:29I mean, it has not yet begun to be evaluated.
42:31Here we depend a lot
42:33on the remittances of the Dominicans.
42:35And tourism.
42:36And tourism.
42:36Which are two variables.
42:38But in the case of,
42:39let's go there in parts,
42:40but in the case of remittances,
42:42I mean, the Dominicans
42:45are the ones who are worried
42:46in the United States.
42:47I mean, let's see it in this detail.
42:50The Dominican is not a foreigner.
42:52Worried about anything.
42:54There are many Dominicans
42:55who are residents,
42:56or who have years of residence,
42:59but possibly have a traffic ticket.
43:01And nobody knows
43:04if that's why they can be deported.
43:05Nobody knows.
43:07Well, Tron has already said
43:07that the resident can be deported.
43:09Yes.
43:10I mean, all that generates
43:12a certain level of concern
43:15in all that.
43:15And obviously, you have to think
43:17towards the future,
43:18to say, wait,
43:19I have to think
43:20what I'm going to do with my life
43:22if this happens.
43:23And the other issue
43:25has to do with tourism.
43:29Hopefully, this does not impact us
43:32on the tourist issue.
43:34But obviously,
43:36there is a generalized campaign
43:38in the world
43:39to not go through the United States.
43:42I mean, there are many people,
43:43because of the case
43:44that happened with a German woman,
43:46the case with another country,
43:47they say,
43:49take other places to tour.
43:52That can have an impact.
43:53Because you say,
43:54well, a tourist from the United States, yes.
43:56But let's put it in this scenario.
43:58How many Cubans come every year
44:01to the Dominican Republic?
44:02Many.
44:03From Miami.
44:06But there are many.
44:06Now, how many of those Cubans
44:09would be afraid
44:11to leave the airport?
44:15I mean, all of this
44:16generates negative expectations.
44:18Hopefully, that doesn't impact us.
44:20I mean, that's not what we're betting on.
44:24Towards the future,
44:25things don't look good.
44:26So, when you have a rate of interest
44:28in the Dominican Republic
44:29that is going up,
44:30so that investors
44:32won't be able to invest,
44:33or we, the investors,
44:34who are going to buy a house,
44:37don't have enough money
44:39to pay those rates of interest monthly.
44:42If you add to that
44:43that you have a situation,
44:45a dollar price that keeps going up
44:47and negative expectations.
44:49No.
44:50Maybe you don't want to be
44:52a bird of bad luck.
44:54But things,
44:55in the economic situation,
44:57don't look good.
44:57And there's another element
44:58that also comes into play.
45:00Because you say, well,
45:02and on the government's side, it's bad.
45:05I mean, when you look at
45:07the latest data that I have,
45:09and I have it now,
45:11this is...
45:12February.
45:13No, on March 30th, no.
45:14On March 30th, now.
45:17Yesterday.
45:18Yesterday.
45:19I mean,
45:20that 25,000,
45:22almost 26,000 million pesos
45:25of expenses,
45:26current expenses,
45:27over current income.
45:30I mean,
45:31normal, current government income
45:34doesn't cover current expenses.
45:36I'm not talking about capital expenses.
45:38I'm only talking about current expenses.
45:40It means that the government's
45:42debt perspectives
45:44to be able to cover those expenses...
45:45Because the deficit is higher.
45:45It's higher.
45:47The deficit is going to be higher because...
45:49And the investment in capital is very low.
45:51The investment in capital...
45:52The other issue is the issue of capital investment.
45:54Because the issue of capital investment...
45:57I understand that there are no levels of transparency.
46:00I'm going to tell you why.
46:02Because in terms of capital,
46:05in terms of capital transfers,
46:08I imagine that's going to be the Fideicomis.
46:11And that's a lot of money
46:13to transfer to capital.
46:15To which?
46:17I imagine that...
46:18I don't imagine, I'm sure
46:20that the Pederdales hotels,
46:23the two hotels that Pederdales is building,
46:24are funded by the Dominican government.
46:27I mean,
46:29because there are a lot of people who think that this money
46:31is with hotel funds.
46:34That's with funds from the Dominican government.
46:36But if you think, for example,
46:38about the construction of the subway,
46:40of the Monoriel in Santiago,
46:45well, now,
46:46of what's being done here on February 27,
46:49or of 9, which never ends,
46:52or of the different works that are stopped,
46:56or that are very slow,
46:58I tell you that the expenses of capital
47:00are not...
47:01I mean,
47:03they are very small
47:05to be able to cover
47:06the needs of the population.
47:08And every time the population starts to worry more.
47:10I saw, for example,
47:11a protest in San Francisco de Macorís.
47:14I...
47:15Luckily, it was a peaceful protest,
47:17the one in San Francisco de Macorís.
47:18There was a two-day flight, I think,
47:20to San Francisco de Macorís.
47:22But the people of Macorís are right.
47:24I mean, do you know how many times
47:26have they promised the people of Macorís
47:28the hospital?
47:29Or how many times have they promised
47:31the circumambulation?
47:32Or to fix the...
47:34the historical center of San Francisco de Macorís?
47:37And all of that
47:38has been left to nothing.
47:39So...
47:41Not now.
47:42Right now, I'm not in a position
47:44to give a lot of advice about
47:46what to do about it.
47:47But from the beginning of the government,
47:49I told my friends
47:51who were in public works,
47:54to focus on a work and finish it.
47:57And tell people,
47:58tomorrow I'll finish this one,
48:00but let me finish this one.
48:02And people will understand,
48:03as long as you finish it and see it.
48:05But the result is that
48:06nothing is finished.
48:09Look, now I'm looking at the case of
48:11Montegrande, for example.
48:13Montegrande was inaugurated
48:14on February 24th.
48:16And that's a big fish tank.
48:20That doesn't do anything.
48:22It doesn't generate
48:23electricity,
48:24it doesn't bring water to the farmers,
48:26it doesn't bring water to the aqueducts.
48:31It doesn't do anything
48:32because it doesn't have the pipes to bring it.
48:34It's like you have a fish tank without pipes.
48:38So, on February 24th,
48:41a year and a bit ago,
48:42Montegrande was inaugurated.
48:44And you say,
48:45but what do we have of Montegrande?
48:46But that's how it is.
48:49The wall.
48:50Nobody knows when they're going to finish the wall.
48:52And if they're going to finish it,
48:53or how they're going to finish it.
48:55So, what I'm saying is,
48:57finish something.
48:58Present something to the Dominican people.
49:00Here we're talking about 21 parking lots.
49:05There's one that's in the middle.
49:07I think it's the one in the center of Los Cervos
49:08that they're doing.
49:1021 parking lots that were going to be done.
49:12I mean, the city.
49:13This city is intraceptible.
49:15The capital, like Santiago.
49:16In Santiago, you can't enter through any place.
49:19I'm from Santiago.
49:20I get lost.
49:22Because I have to go through 50,000 places
49:24without finishing.
49:25So, you have a, what do you call it?
49:28A cable car.
49:29People have taken it to tour.
49:31It's only full on weekends
49:33because they come from the fields
49:34to get on the cable car.
49:36I mean.
49:39Daniel.
49:40Yes.
49:42What a shame we don't have you.
49:44But with you,
49:45we enjoy the conversation.
49:48And thank you for those graphics.
49:51Gracias, Daniel.
49:52Gracias.