A satirical take has snowballed into a political slugfest between stand-up comedian Kunal Kamra and Deputy Chief Minister Eknath Shinde.
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00:00And joining me now on our big story, free speech under threat across India.
00:07Is sponsored violence being normalized?
00:10Will civil society stand up to political thugs?
00:13The questions that we are raising.
00:15Bharat Dabholkar, senior advertising professional from Mumbai Theatre Artists.
00:20Someone in the past has been seen close to the Shiv Sena.
00:24Sameer Soni is actor and director.
00:27Tushar Gandhi is activist and great grandson of Mahatma Gandhi.
00:30He has in fact put out a petition, letter petition.
00:33Protesting against the Maharashtra government on this issue.
00:36Suman C. Raman is Chennai based political analyst.
00:39I appreciate all of you joining us.
00:41I want to come to you Tushar Gandhi because you and others in Mumbai
00:44have drafted a petition condemning the Maharashtra government
00:47for allowing the thugs to get away.
00:50Now, you seem to be among the very few voices in public life speaking out.
00:55Most people in Mumbai, particularly the celebrities, don't want to say a word.
01:00Yeah, I think I don't have to worry because I live in a rented apartment
01:05so the threat of the bulldozer won't work on me and I am not afraid of goons.
01:10So that threat also doesn't deter me.
01:13So I can afford to raise my voice against such kind of
01:22muscle man attitude that has become a normal habit of people in power.
01:30When they can't do what really matters, they resort to such thuggery
01:37to establish their dominance and show off their strength.
01:42It's a reprehensible trend.
01:45But why do you think so many people are not…
01:49Why do you think celebrities and many Mumbaikers are unwilling to speak out?
01:54Is it the fear factor at the end of the day?
01:56People fear that if it is Kunal Kamra tomorrow, if they come out in his support
02:01they will be targeted next?
02:03Yes, it is definitely the fear factor because we see that hate, abuse, uncouth language
02:12when it is used by politicians, even the legal process is not done against them.
02:20But if an ordinary citizen raises their voice then they are brutalized,
02:26they are traumatized and they are terrorized.
02:29These are terror tactics.
02:31These are urban terrorists working under the patronage of the government of the day.
02:38Okay, let me come to you Sameer Soni for a moment.
02:41I know you don't want to refer to specific political parties.
02:45I take your point.
02:46But the fact is that I find very few…
02:48I tried today to speak to stand-up comedians to join the show,
02:52to actors to join the show.
02:54Everyone said, please don't involve me in this.
02:57We don't want to get involved.
02:58Now, if you don't get involved and speak,
03:00then the Shiv Sena or the thugs who are responsible for these activities in Mumbai
03:05even get more emboldened.
03:07Why is it that so many of you who are in the celebrity world of Mumbai never speak up?
03:16Rajdeep, I can't speak for other people, what their reason is.
03:20Either they are scared, they are not sure.
03:22But as far as I am concerned, I think freedom of speech or right to speech
03:27is a very ambiguous and an extremely powerful right you have.
03:32With a lot of freedom comes a lot of power and with that comes a lot of responsibility.
03:37Which means if you want to say something, you have to be sure what you are saying,
03:41where you are saying and when you are saying.
03:44That's just the basic thing.
03:46So the big thing that comes in…
03:48But does that justify violence?
03:51Sameer, there is one part where freedom of speech you say is ambiguous.
03:56What is unambiguous is the violence.
03:58Private property being demolished simply because a stand-up comedian did an act in a hotel studio?
04:04Surely that's why you should draw the line.
04:06Tomorrow it could be a film set.
04:12Like I was saying that I have my own circle of freedom.
04:16And how do we know that I touch your circle of freedom?
04:21And that's where the contradiction starts.
04:24And as far as the reaction is concerned, who is to say who has enraged how?
04:29I mean, and you know very well the fact that if a lot of YouTubers
04:36or people who engage people in YouTube and stuff like that,
04:43they make these comments about politicians, about film stars because they want to get a reaction.
04:49And in that lies the fun of it.
04:52You crack a joke at the PM or VPPM or an actor and everybody has a big laugh.
05:00But when you push something, you will get a pushback.
05:03The pushback cannot involve violence, Sameer.
05:06The pushback cannot involve violence. There must be a line.
05:10No, I am not…
05:13Look, no, no, exactly. I know, but who and what is the line?
05:18You know very well, few years back there was this spokesperson for a certain party
05:26who referred to the profit of a certain community and people took offense to that
05:31and she was banned from the party for next two, three years.
05:34So when this comes to these kind of things, where do you draw the line?
05:38It's always between have and have-nots.
05:41The people who have the power, they will react as harshly, as softly as they can.
05:46And it's for the law and the judge to take its own course.
05:49But to me is that if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You have no business being there.
05:54Because you know the country you live in. You didn't think that you will talk about so and so
05:58and nothing is going to happen to you. Whether what they did is not right and was overdone.
06:04I will not debate that at all because that's for the law to decide.
06:09Okay, I want to bring in Bharat Dabholkar at this point. Sameer Soni is saying,
06:13how are we going to draw the line? That if you are in the field of stand-up comedy,
06:17you want a response from politicians. Sometimes politicians respond, they get enraged
06:22and resort to what I call Thokshai or we know as Thokshai Bharat Dabholkar.
06:28You interestingly used to do satire all those years ago. Do you approve of what the Shiv Sena did yesterday?
06:34No, I'll tell you what Rajdeep, I can answer your question in two ways.
06:38For the last 35 years or more, I have been doing political satires
06:41where I have made fun of politicians, I have made fun of prime ministers, heads of different parties
06:46and I have done that all over the country, all over the world.
06:50And I have never got into trouble because I know where the Lakshman Resha is.
06:54You don't get personal. You make fun of a politician, which is allowed.
06:58I don't think it's a crime to make fun of a politician. But you don't get personal.
07:02You don't throw the line of another political party to make fun of somebody else.
07:06I have done that for 35 years.
07:09But how can that justify violence? Bharat Dabholkar, I am sorry.
07:14I am talking, you see, if what you are saying that you know where to draw the line, I have not got personal.
07:21Are you telling me if someone gets personal, then you have the right to go and smash the hotel studio?
07:28I think his action was wrong, but the reaction was wronger.
07:32I don't think anybody has the right to go and smash a studio or file an FIR.
07:36You can reprimand him. You can't do the kinds of things that the Shiksera people have done.
07:40That's completely wrong. I don't agree with that.
07:43But I am a lawyer and I know constitution more than most of these people who keep on flashing the copies of constitution.
07:49That in constitution, which are fundamental right to say what you want to say,
07:53there's a proviso that says we have a famous saying that says your right to wave your hand ends where the other man's cheek begins.
08:01You have a restriction on your fundamental rights. You can't misuse that.
08:04You can't say I have a freedom to say what I want to say. You don't have that freedom.
08:08Okay. I want to bring in Sumanth Raman at this moment because Sumanth, you know,
08:11all the focus has been on Mumbai and what has been diluted in the process is what happened in Chennai
08:17where a YouTuber claims that his house was also ransacked.
08:21Now, there is an argument of selective outrage that the liberals outrage because the Shiv Sena is the culprit in Mumbai.
08:29Don't outrage because the DMK and the Congress are being accused of using their goons to target a YouTuber.
08:35How do you respond to this argument of selective outrage?
08:38Outrage tends to be targeted at whoever you want to target. So, therefore, it is quite selective.
08:50But, Rajdeep, I am sort of a little surprised and saddened at what I have heard.
08:55There is freedom of speech which is guaranteed under the constitution.
08:59But very very importantly, the only limits that have been set on the freedom of speech can be enforced only by the state.
09:09Not by somebody. If you feel offended, you cannot go and do the enforcement yourself.
09:15That is why if somebody was offended by Kunal Kamra, the solution would have been to go to court.
09:22Not to go and vandalize the studio. So, I think that people are missing the point here.
09:28Nobody is saying that freedom of speech is unrestricted. I agree that there have to be reasonable restrictions.
09:36But the only entity that can restrict that freedom according to our constitution, if you believe in our constitution, is the state.
09:46But that's true of Tamil Nadu as much as Maharashtra. That's true of Tamil Nadu as much as Maharashtra.
09:54And the manner, let me complete this. What has happened to Savkashankar is an appalling incident.
10:03Now, let me tell you, these people who attacked his house did not even bother to conceal themselves.
10:11They are on video. At least in the Maharashtra Kunal Kamra incident, an FIR has been filed.
10:1811 people have been arrested. Okay, they have got bail. Whatever, they have been produced before a magistrate.
10:23In Chennai, till I last heard, there is no FIR. Forget calling these people for enquiry or arresting them.
10:31Forget the police having to identify them. The public have identified them. No action is taken.
10:39Across India, it is the same story irrespective of whichever party is in power.
10:44When in the opposition, you will fight for freedom of speech and when you become the ruling party, you will trample.
10:51See what Revant Reddy has done, government has done with those lady journalists in Telangana.
10:55Make no mistake, there is no BJP, no Congress, no DMK, no Shiv Sena.
11:00They are all the same and they care two hoots for your freedom of speech if they are criticized. Period.
11:08Okay, I want to at this moment, Sameer Soni, you wanted to respond. Go ahead.
11:13Yeah, I would like to respond to Sumanji that what he is saying is more of a matter of law, the policing.
11:23You are responsible for your action if you break law which is vis-a-vis destroying property.
11:28Surely, you should have to be held for it and it has got nothing to do with freedom of speech.
11:34So, that's true across the border. So, I don't know why that is so relevant in this particular case.
11:41No, no, it's relevant, it's relevant, it's relevant in this particular case because I had on my show,
11:47the Shiv Sena, Yuva Sena leader who led the mob, Rahul Kanal yesterday and he took, he was happy to take responsibility.
11:54Now, if you are going to take responsibility happily for a violent act, that suggests an element of impunity.
12:00You know beyond the point you can't be touched. FIR will be filed, you will be arrested, you will wave to the crowd and get bailed the next morning.
12:07Yeah, that's completely wrong. That is not allowed. That's completely wrong.
12:12Or in Tamil Nadu's case, no FIR also.
12:15Rajdeep, Rajdeep. Yes, Sameer. No, listen Rajdeep, when you say these people, they come on TV and they take glory on it or feel great about it,
12:25don't you inside feel guilty about that? Because you take these odd incidents and make it nationwide.
12:31No, I believe they should be exposed. No, I am not giving a platform, I want to expose them. The country must know.
12:38You are not exposing it. No, no, no. It is, it is, it will, no Rajdeep, what you are doing is selective exposure.
12:46You are taking some random guy who was having a beverage and some chicken in a place he shouldn't be doing it and became national news.
12:52He feels like a hero, I feel stupid watching it, talking about him. Is there a national issue that someone had a beer or chicken somewhere?
13:01No, no, no, it is a, no, no, one minute, one minute, one minute. Likewise this, I mean who is this? No, no, no, I am sorry.
13:06No, no, one minute, who, it is the fact is that in, in Mumbai, which, you know, is India's herbs primer city,
13:13brand Mumbai, brand Maharashtra, brand India takes a hit when something like this happens.
13:18But just a minute, I want to make it very clear that stand-up comedians in particular are soft targets.
13:23Jokes are no laughing matter. Right to free speech, remember, is enshrined with reasonable restrictions under Article 19.
13:31But what is happening now is my right to take offense. We are easily offended and many stand-up comedians therefore become particularly vulnerable.
13:40In March 2025, Shiv Senex vandalized a club over Kunal Kamra, but that's not the only time.
13:46February 2025, Ranveer Allahbadia, other YouTubers were then called out for vulgarity,
13:52which I believe was important in its sense, but again raised questions over where does free speech lines be drawn.
13:59November 2021, Veer Das, celebrated stand-up, was booked after his show Two Indias in Washington DC targeted politicians across the board.
14:09In January 2021, it went worse. Munawar Farooqui was jailed for one month for his jokes on Hindu deities.
14:17In May 2016, and on Amit Shah, May 2016, Tanmay Bhatt was under fire for mocking Lata Mangeshkar and Sachin Tendulkar.
14:26In January 2016, Kiku Sharda was arrested for mimicking Dera Sacha Soda chief. He got bail after the Dera chief forgave him.
14:34You see, this is the problem at the moment. Tushar Gandhi, we've been hearing, as was just suggested by Sumant Raman,
14:41that it's happening in Chennai, there's no FIR. Do you believe that liberals need to be very clear?
14:47Zero tolerance irrespective of who is in power, whether it's a Mamata Banerjee who arrests a cartoonist for a Facebook post on her,
14:55whether it's now the DMK in the dock or the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra. Anyone who misuses power must be questioned.
15:03Absolutely, absolutely. And Rajdeep, I don't agree with this accusation that liberals are selective.
15:11Liberals always raise their voice. There are certain issues where the voices are louder and are picked up.
15:20In other issues, you speak about them and nobody bothers. We can't tar all liberals saying they are selective.
15:28Liberals in its actual philosophy are across the spectrum. They don't care.
15:36Anybody does wrong or anybody uses radical methods are criticized and it happens.
15:44So you're saying you condemn Tamil Nadu as much as you condemn Mumbai?
15:49I condemn Rewand Reddy, I condemn Tamil Nadu, I condemn everywhere where people are targeted
15:56because there are no limits on freedom of speech. If somebody criminally violates it, there is a court, there is a law.
16:05Because remember Mr. Gandhi for decades, for decades, Bal Thackeray when he was supremo, Thokshahi was normalized even then.
16:12So the fact is it's now you say one thing when you're in opposition, one thing when you're in government.
16:17Bharat Dabholkar, do you agree with this philosophy that we are being selective or do you think that it's very clear?
16:25Anyone who resorts to violence must be condemned. Why should Kunal Kamra be the one condemned?
16:30The condemnation should be on the violence.
16:32I think Kunal Kamra was wrong but I think Shiv Sena which vandalized his property were more wrong than Kunal Kamra was.
16:40You can react as somebody said, you can go to the court but you can't get into beating up people, you can't get into destroying property.
16:46So why is that happening? Why is that happening? Rahul Kanal came on my show yesterday and said I get emotional.
16:52Can you get, is that an argument? But Rajdeep that is happening with every political party.
16:57A girl called Ketki was jailed because she said something against the NCP supremo of that time.
17:02Somebody was jailed because somebody said come and chant Hanuman Chalisa outside your house.
17:07So every party is wrong. It's not just Shiv Sena. I think whether it's BJP, Shiv Sena, DMK, all the parties,
17:14they are so sensitive about things that they let their goons go into whatever they want to do and no one restricts them.
17:20I think the fault lies with leaders of these parties.
17:23You know the fault lies also with our policing system Sumantraman because as you said Chennai hasn't filed an FIR yet
17:29at least at the time when we were doing this show. In Mumbai too the police is seen to virtually follow whatever the government wants
17:38and where you stand in Indian politics depends on where you sit. Today Aditya Thackeray is the one condemning Thackeray
17:45and yet remember it was the Shiv Sena which started Thokshai.
17:48Rajdeep the other important thing you should remember is many of these stand-up comics have criticized people across the political spectrum
17:59and very often, I'll give you an example, in this case this is not a stand-up comic,
18:04but was one of the fiercest critics of the previous AIDMK government when it was in power.
18:10When the DMK came to power he started attacking the DMK government
18:14and the same DMK leaders were lapping up his videos when they were in the opposition
18:19suddenly had their guns out for him. So I think this level of hypocrisy saying that you cannot criticize,
18:26you cannot level charges, you cannot make jokes or make fun of us.
18:32I mean we've heard of people, you know, the famous cartoonist R. K. Lakshman and his cartoons on Pandit Nehru and Indira Gandhi
18:42and we've heard about the relationship that Mr. Vajpayee, I think Shekhar Suman had recited a very nice story about
18:51how he used to make fun of Mr. Vajpayee and Mr. Vajpayee had a huge laugh about it.
18:57There was a video today of Mr. Lalu Yadav enjoying somebody making fun of him.
19:01I mean this is something that is noted and put out as comedy. You don't like it? You feel it's defamatory, go to court.
19:11Maybe our politicians have become more intolerant. You know the Vajpayee era that you refer to
19:21was an era where politicians had a higher sort of tolerance quotient. I want to tell our viewers.
19:27I once criticized Balasaheb Thackeray. Shiv Sennings came to my office, black flags, black ink.
19:33I had to move through the back door. But a month later Bal Thackeray called me and asked me to have a warm beer with him.
19:40So he was ready at the end of the day to accept perhaps that, you know, criticism. He was a cartoonist himself.
19:46And the truth of the matter is maybe in that generation politicians were more willing to accept criticism.
19:53Now in the age of social media our politicians have become far more prickly. You agree with that Sameer Soni?
19:58Could you do a film you think, lampooning politicians today? Sameer, could you do a program on TV?
20:05Do a program on TV about what? About lampooning politicians. Do you think you could get away with it today?
20:14I can't. Look, okay, I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I won't. But let's not digress.
20:22You know, this is, if you take this, what is happening right now has been happening for years and years and years, right?
20:29Because the fine line that separates with what is okay and acceptable is so fine.
20:35You never know when you are stepping on somebody's toes. And what happens is,
20:40you're constantly pushing the envelope to find out where does the line lie. And you get pushbacks.
20:45Similarly, we didn't have digital stuff. We did not have stand-up comedians earlier.
20:50So they're pushing and they're getting the pushbacks. And very soon this will settle down.
20:55To a different thing, for example, when you and I were in school, if we didn't do our homework,
21:00a teacher would come and, you know, slap us with a ruler or something. Today it would be considered child abuse.
21:06Things have changed. We do change. We accept the new normal what happens.
21:11I take your point with only one caveat. One thing which is unacceptable is violence.
21:18Think about today. I want each and every one of you to think about the hotel studio owner.
21:24Please think about him. It's very easy for us to sit in a TV studio and comment on the fine lines.
21:31He deserves compensation in my view. He should be given compensation.
21:35And remember, Devendra Fadnavis when he was in the opposition had defended Kangana Ranaut
21:40and said follow the law of the land. The same Devendra Fadnavis now in government
21:45says it is the Shiv Sainiks who defends the Shiv Sainiks and targets Kunal Kamra.
21:51Where you stand in Indian politics depends on where you sit. And that's part of the problem.
21:57Just many of the problems. Yes, Tushar Gandhi, I'll give you a final word. 30 seconds.
22:02You know they sent a bulldozer to the venue where Kunal Kamra shot his show.
22:09But on Juhu beach there is a prominent illegal building which has been declared illegal.
22:15And demolition orders have been issued. But because it belongs to Narayan Raleigh,
22:20the bulldozer doesn't find the road there. That is selective vandalism.
22:25That is selective politics. That is politics of Vendetta. And that has to be opposed strongly.
22:32No excuses can be made. I'm sorry but most of these people over here have been making apologies
22:38to condone violence. That can't be accepted. I agree with you entirely.
22:43Violence cannot be condoned. Whatever your provocation, find a better way to express yourself.
22:49That is where the line has to be drawn. I want to see the Maharashtra government now compensating.
22:56Compensating the hotel studio owner. You want to build brand Mumbai, brand Maharashtra, brand India.
23:03Walk the talk and really show that law and order is being maintained by you.
23:09And not being outsourced to street thugs who are being sponsored by a political party.
23:15Think about it.