Democracy Watch episode 274: Marc Elias discusses Trump's attack against him.
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NewsTranscript
00:00This is Democracy Watch.
00:01Mark, we have watched as Donald Trump has taken action
00:04against all of these law firms
00:06whose political ideology doesn't comport with his.
00:08And we've kind of waited to see the point
00:11at which he would target you specifically.
00:13I feel like he's been dancing around you for a long time.
00:16That moment has finally come within the last 24 hours
00:19where he did target you specifically.
00:21Can you explain what he did?
00:23Yeah, so look, we have been waiting, as you say,
00:26for Donald Trump to continue
00:29his political retribution activities.
00:32We talked on a prior video about how he singled me out
00:36in a Department of Justice speech,
00:37called me a bad person,
00:39said that I was in favor of communism.
00:40What we have this week is a memorandum
00:44from the White House to the Department of Justice,
00:47the Attorney General, the Department of Homeland Security,
00:50that basically begins by saying, again,
00:53what a terrible human being I am,
00:54and then tells the Department of Justice
00:58to instruct its lawyers to look out for
01:03and to find frivolous legal filings by law firms,
01:08such as my own, but others as well,
01:10and to be aggressive in pursuing sanctions
01:13in those instances, also to presumably file bar complaints.
01:17And the kicker is, Brian,
01:19that even if a judge doesn't find something frivolous,
01:23even if a bar doesn't find something frivolous,
01:24if there's something that Pam Bondi
01:26thinks is really frivolous,
01:27they should call the attention of the White House,
01:28because the White House might be able
01:29to impose its own sanctions on law firms.
01:34What does that even mean in practice?
01:36What can the White House do to impose sanctions
01:38on a private law firm that doesn't even have business
01:41in front of the federal government?
01:42Well, but this is the thing, right?
01:44Like, what we have been watching for weeks now
01:47is Donald Trump trying to impose unilateral sanctions
01:52from the White House on law firms,
01:54law firms like the prior firm I was at,
01:57law firms like Covington & Burling,
01:59law firms like Paul Weiss,
02:00which has now disgraced itself
02:03by settling with the Trump administration.
02:06And those involved the removal of security clearances
02:10and the banning of government contracts,
02:12also entering government buildings and the like,
02:15things that are totally unconstitutional
02:17that courts have now blocked,
02:18in the case of the one law firm that went to court over it.
02:22Donald Trump is doing this
02:23because he wants to project power
02:24and instill fear on the recipient.
02:27So you're quite right.
02:28Like, you know, where does he get off doing this
02:31and really what's the practical impact,
02:33particularly if these actions are later found
02:35to be illegal by federal judges?
02:38But from Donald Trump's standpoint,
02:40he has still made a point, right?
02:41He is still able to intimidate a lot of lawyers
02:45and a lot of law firms to not cross him.
02:47So what he's hoping in this latest memorandum
02:50that targets me and the bar as a whole
02:53is that we will all back down.
02:55We'll all think twice about filing a lawsuit.
02:56We'll all think twice about taking on a client.
02:58I mean, I can tell him for my part, it's not gonna work.
03:00I already issued a statement saying
03:01we will never negotiate with the White House.
03:03We will never seek to find common agreement with them.
03:06I mean, I don't, you know,
03:07I wouldn't expect a firefighter
03:09to try to negotiate with an arsonist.
03:11And for my part, I will never,
03:14and my law firm will never seek accommodation
03:16with Donald Trump and his White House.
03:19But there are law firms that will,
03:21and we've seen that happen,
03:23and it is a shame that it's happening,
03:25but that's why he's going after me,
03:27because he is hoping to try to score some points,
03:31and maybe even if I don't back down, others do.
03:34Mark, I'm gonna put your statement
03:36right here on the screen.
03:37This is pulled from your website.
03:39"'President Trump is attempting
03:41"'to dismantle the Constitution and attack the rule of law
03:43"'in his obsessive pursuit of retribution
03:45"'against his political opponents.
03:46"'Today's White House memo targets
03:47"'not only me and my law firm,
03:49"'but every attorney and law firm
03:50"'who dares to challenge his assault on the rule of law.
03:52"'President Trump's goal is clear.
03:54"'He wants lawyers and law firms
03:55"'to capitulate and cower
03:57"'until there's no one left
03:58"'to oppose his administration in court.
04:00"'Elias Law Group will not be deterred
04:01"'from fighting for democracy in court.
04:03"'There will be no negotiation with this White House
04:05"'about the clients we represent
04:06"'or the lawsuits we bring on their behalf.
04:08"'Our democracy is in peril,
04:10"'and the decisions made by lawyers and their firms
04:12"'may very well determine the future
04:13"'of the rule of law in the United States.'"
04:16So Mark, what was the process
04:17that you and your law firm thought through
04:21in terms of putting this response forward?
04:24Because this very much is not what we're seeing
04:26from the suite of other law firms
04:29that are engaged in similar attacks
04:32against this White House.
04:33Yeah, so for us, it was really simple.
04:35For me, it was really simple.
04:36I had laid down a marker months ago.
04:38You and I talked about this first
04:39in the context of legacy media
04:41and the refusal of legacy media
04:43to stand up to Donald Trump,
04:45to stand up for independent media.
04:48And we talked about the need
04:49for people to support independent media,
04:51like what you do, like what Democracy Docket does.
04:54We then talked about how billionaires
04:57were flying their private jets to Mar-a-Lago
05:00and were bending Indian,
05:01how we really needed the business community to stand up,
05:04and they didn't.
05:05And then we saw big law firms do the same.
05:08So when this came out and I learned about it,
05:11there was no hesitation.
05:13I knew what we were going to do.
05:15You and I had talked about what we all needed to do,
05:18which was to make it very, very clear
05:20from the first moment,
05:21the first instance in which Donald Trump
05:23thought there would be intimidation,
05:25that there was no possibility
05:28that there would be a bowing down.
05:29There was no possibility
05:31that there would be a negotiation.
05:32I wanted it to be crystal clear
05:34before anyone read anything
05:37or had a moment thought
05:39that we were never, ever going to yield
05:42to what Donald Trump's doing.
05:43But unfortunately, what we're seeing big law do,
05:45which is what, frankly, we saw big media do,
05:48big corporate America do,
05:49is they're weighing.
05:51They're like, well, what are others doing?
05:53What are the upsides?
05:56What are the downsides?
05:57And that is what is destroying democracy.
05:59If our business leaders won't stand up,
06:02if our major media institutions won't stand up,
06:04if our major law firms won't stand up,
06:06then how the hell can you expect
06:08average Americans, everyday Americans
06:11to do their part?
06:13So for me, it was never a choice.
06:17I wanna take this opportunity then,
06:19for those who are watching right now,
06:20if you want to support the invaluable work
06:22that Mark is doing,
06:23especially as it relates to not cowing
06:25to this administration
06:27and to pursuing fearless journalism
06:29in a way that we're not seeing from legacy media,
06:32please sign up for Democracy Docket.
06:33That is a small step that we can all take
06:35to show some support for the courage
06:38that Mark and his team are showing
06:40in the face of such adversity.
06:41So I'll put the link right here on the screen
06:42and also in the post description of this video.
06:44Mark, can I ask about the feedback
06:46that you're receiving?
06:47Because this stands in stark contrast
06:49to some of the capitulation that we're seeing
06:51from these other big law firms.
06:52And we're gonna talk about that
06:53in an entirely separate video
06:55because I think that it's worthy
06:56of a video unto itself
06:58to really dig into the details of that.
07:00But again, we are seeing a lot of capitulation
07:02as it relates to big law
07:04and yet you opted not to
07:05and you did it immediately.
07:07And so what has that feedback been like?
07:09Right, so look, this is why I wanted to be on with you
07:11as soon as we could after this.
07:13And thank you for the opportunity.
07:15The feedback's been positive.
07:16The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.
07:18I've gotten outreach from clients.
07:20I've gotten outreach from progressive organizations.
07:22I've gotten outreach from individual lawyers,
07:24people I've never met,
07:25who are saying, thank you for doing this.
07:28Thank you for not backing down.
07:30Thank you for not bending a knee.
07:33Thank you for not just not backing down
07:35but for speaking out, right?
07:37Because I didn't want there to be
07:38a period of time in which I was quiet
07:40and people thought, well, maybe he's not gonna back down
07:42but he's not gonna speak out.
07:43And I thought it was really important to speak out
07:45and there's no place I wanted to do it more
07:47than to your audience who have been so supportive
07:50of the rule of law and so supportive of democracy
07:54and this entire series that you and I have done
07:56have been about engaging your community
08:00in the fight for democracy in court.
08:01And this is a part of it.
08:02So I've been overwhelmed
08:04by the positive feedback I've gotten.
08:07But I also know that it's gonna be a tough road ahead.
08:10We are only three months into this administration
08:13and this is already what he is doing.
08:15Just imagine how much worse this is going to be
08:17in six months or in three years
08:19when we are still dealing with this.
08:21But we're gonna take it day by day
08:23and we're not gonna give up the fight.
08:25Can you speak about the broader theme
08:28of fight versus capitulation?
08:30Because I feel like that's so much
08:31of what the political moment on the left
08:33has been boiled down to right now.
08:35And usually, look, we're a big tent party.
08:37We've got everybody from AOC and Bernie Sanders
08:41to Joe Manchin and Jared Golden
08:43all in the same political party here.
08:46So it's not an easy, it's like herding cats on the left.
08:49But I do feel like this moment is not necessarily
08:52about the moderate versus progressive like it usually is.
08:56That usually feels like it's tearing the party in half.
08:58Right now, this feels like more of a moment
09:00of fighting versus capitulating
09:02or fighting versus flight, really.
09:05And so can you talk about your decision
09:07to immediately and unequivocally come back
09:10in the broader context of really,
09:13what we're seeing right now
09:15seems to be the most important thing
09:16for the Democratic base,
09:17which is that we need some folks in there
09:20that are willing to show some spine
09:21and willing to stand up to an administration
09:23that has shown no qualms
09:25about using every lever at their disposal,
09:28legal or not, to go after their perceived enemies.
09:31Yeah, I mean, look, I can speak for myself
09:33and I can speak for the legal community that I operate in.
09:37And for me, there's no choice.
09:39I understand that not every law firm
09:41is gonna be in the position that I am in.
09:42And I understand that different politicians
09:44are gonna be in different places.
09:45They all play different roles.
09:47I think though that it is important that we understand
09:50that Donald Trump is not playing by the rules
09:53that we expect of them.
09:56I remember back and you and I talked about this
09:59actually at the time.
10:00Merrick Garland was a very decent man,
10:02is a very decent man.
10:03Joe Biden no doubt appointed him for all the right reasons.
10:06But time and time again,
10:08when Merrick Garland had the power,
10:09the opportunity to use the Department of Justice power
10:13to protect democracy or to follow norms,
10:15he decided that following norms was more important.
10:17Down to his last speech.
10:19I mean, you and I talked about literally his last speech
10:21was a celebration of norms.
10:23It was a celebration of how he thought
10:24the Department of Justice under Joe Biden had been a success
10:27because it had reinforced norms.
10:29Well, here we are, it's now March,
10:31you're talking to a lawyer who has been the subject
10:33of a speech at the Department of Justice
10:35by the president of the United States,
10:37calling me out and calling me a bad person and a communist.
10:42Now these executive orders,
10:44this memorandum targeted me and my law firm,
10:47executive orders targeting other law firms.
10:49So to me, when I look at this,
10:53it is not that we can break the law
10:55because we have to be a party of the rule of law,
10:58we have to follow the law.
10:59But if we talk about what the norms are,
11:02it is very abnormal for a lawyer like me
11:05to be on a show like yours,
11:06calling out a law firm like Paul Weiss
11:08and saying that it is despicable what they did.
11:11It is very unusual for someone like you,
11:14or for that matter, like me,
11:15to call out legacy media outlets by name,
11:18the Washington Post, right?
11:19Like nobody likes to do that,
11:21but we have to be willing to do that.
11:23And so that is the choice I've made.
11:25And I think that as lawyers who have a unique opportunity
11:30and a unique responsibility,
11:32it is something we need to do
11:34and it is something not enough
11:35of the legal establishment is doing.
11:37Well, let's finish off with this.
11:40You were the target of Trump's ire today,
11:42and also a few days ago when he was speaking to the DOJ,
11:45but this most recent memorandum-
11:46I question why he was at the Department of Justice.
11:49Say again?
11:50And of course, why is he at the Department of Justice?
11:52Which is a total other issue unto itself.
11:55Barack Obama went to the Department of Justice once
11:57for Eric Holder's going away,
11:59and the Republicans lost their mind.
12:01Right.
12:01I mean, you know, Republicans will still talk
12:03about Bill Clinton meeting Loretta Lynch on the tarmac.
12:06And yet now, Pam Bondi is like having dinner
12:08on a binatally basis with Donald Trump
12:11and his campaign staff.
12:13But all of that notwithstanding,
12:15you were the most recent target of Trump's ire.
12:18And we know that after you, another law firm,
12:22another entity, another company, another business CEO,
12:25whatever it may be, is gonna be the subject next.
12:28And so what's your message to those who come after you
12:32who are gonna be faced with the difficult position of,
12:35okay, do I capitulate?
12:36Because it might be more beneficial for the bottom line,
12:39or it might just make things easier for me altogether,
12:41even though doing so chips away at our ability
12:44to organize together against him.
12:46You know, like, can you speak on that one,
12:48what you would say to the next folks
12:50who get in the crosshairs of Trump?
12:52Yeah, I'd say two things.
12:53The first is that even if you wanted to capitulate
12:59for business reasons, it won't work
13:03because Donald Trump doesn't make a deal that he keeps.
13:06Yeah. You know,
13:07one of the things about Donald Trump
13:08is once you show weakness to him, he owns you.
13:11He doesn't make a deal with you on equal terms,
13:13that afterwards you shake hands
13:15and then you're on equal footing.
13:16I mean, take the Public Integrity Unit when he said,
13:20okay, let's find me a lawyer that's willing to sign off
13:23on this dismissal of Eric Adams' case.
13:25They finally found a lawyer who was willing to do that.
13:28And then, and that person did so under the pretense
13:31that, okay, I'm gonna jump on the grenade
13:33and we'll protect the Public Integrity Unit at the DOJ.
13:36Five minutes later, the entire Public Integrity Unit
13:39is disbanded anyway.
13:41Right, so the first thing I'd say is it doesn't work.
13:43But the second thing is I'd ask you,
13:45do you have no dignity?
13:48I mean, do you have no self-respect?
13:51When you are retired
13:54and your grandchildren are looking at you,
13:57don't you think they will look at you and ask what you did?
14:00And are you gonna tell them what you did
14:02is you caved to Donald Trump
14:03when Donald Trump was trying to destroy democracy?
14:06When Donald Trump was intimidating you,
14:08that what you did is you gave in to what was wrong
14:14because of money?
14:16Is that really what you want to be remembered for?
14:18Look, here's the thing.
14:19Donald Trump is a very powerful man.
14:22And I make fun of him, you make fun of him
14:24because he's kind of a buffoonish character.
14:27But he's the President of the United States.
14:29And anyone who thinks that I don't take seriously
14:32the threat that he is doesn't understand what I'm saying.
14:35I worry every single day.
14:37It is not that I am without worry.
14:39It is not that I just shrug all this off.
14:43I understand that Donald Trump wants to ruin me.
14:46And he has a lot of tools to be able to ruin me.
14:49But the question is,
14:51am I going to look myself in the mirror and say,
14:53okay, therefore compromise everything I believe in,
14:56compromise everything I've fought my career for,
14:59and just hide or cower or even worse, make a deal with him?
15:03Or am I at least gonna look in the mirror every day
15:06and stand tall and say, you know what?
15:08I have my integrity.
15:10I have my self-respect.
15:12And if Donald Trump's able to destroy me,
15:14then he destroys me.
15:15But at least he will have taken out someone
15:18who to the bitter end was doing the best he could
15:22to fight for democracy in this country.
15:24And so that's my message to these CEOs or these media leaders
15:29or to these law firm chairmen is have some self-respect.
15:35Perfectly put.
15:36And if that isn't a perfect example,
15:40a perfect reason for folks to support the work that you do,
15:44the invaluable work that you do,
15:46and the courageous way with which you do it,
15:50I don't know what is.
15:51So again, I'll put the link to Democracy Docket
15:52right here on this team,
15:53a small step that we can all take to support that work.
15:56I'm Brian Tyler Cohen.
15:58I'm Mark Elias.
15:58This is Democracy Watch.