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00:00We're going to talk a bit more about this now with an expert in international relations,
00:04Elizabeth Shepard Salam.
00:06Thanks for taking the time to speak to us.
00:07Now, as we just heard there, France and the U.K. say they are ready to send ground forces
00:11to assure lasting peace in Ukraine, but the European countries do vary greatly on the
00:15different kinds of guarantees that they're each willing to offer.
00:19What kind of guarantees are we talking about from which countries and who's the most reticent?
00:26So remember that when we're talking about European countries here, we're not just talking
00:30about the European Union, obviously, since we are talking about the U.K.
00:34What we saw, for example, in terms of France yesterday in Macron's speech, was talking
00:39about notably not on the front lines, which I think is what most of the Europeans are
00:45talking about.
00:46But in the case of France, for example, protecting certain cities and certain critical infrastructures.
00:52I think he spoke about electricity, for example, and others.
00:57So there are a couple of sort of caveats.
00:58One, obviously, not everyone is willing to contribute or doesn't want to contribute in
01:02the same way.
01:03We see this Franco-British axis being very important, but we do see more reticence, let's
01:08say, from the Germans and then from those neighbors of the EU that are much further
01:14away that see less of an interest in investing in and contributing to a coalition.
01:19It is notable, of course, to say also that even with France, who is willing to invest
01:25in humans and soldiers and in military, that they were very clear to say that it wouldn't
01:32be on the front lines so that at least theoretically we're not talking about direct confrontation
01:37about the Russian, with the Russians, unless, of course, the Russians decide to bomb beyond
01:44the border.
01:45We're also talking, obviously, about something he said, not peacekeepers in the traditional
01:51format, meaning it won't be, again, on the front line, but it will require some sort
01:56of signed peace deal, which is perhaps the most difficult part of this entire deal.
02:02So what are your thoughts?
02:03Do you believe it is absolutely necessary to get some kind of boots on the ground in
02:07Ukraine to make sure that the ceasefire holds?
02:10I do think that there have to be boots on the ground to make sure that the ceasefire
02:14holds and to clearly show Europe's intentions towards Russia, which I think is the other
02:22objective of these troops, to show that if they go any further, including to those countries
02:26that are part of the European Union or NATO, that they will find resistance.
02:31So I think that it's both dissuasion as well as a necessary part of the ceasefire deal.
02:38But of course, that does require a ceasefire deal.
02:41It certainly does.
02:42And of course, the U.S. and Europe have very different approaches to Russia.
02:46For example, how has Europe reacted to this U.S. brokered agreement with Russia that that
02:51would in theory see a cessation of hostilities in the Black Sea?
02:55I think the European view and the view of many is that the United States is basically
03:00caving into the Russians because that's what it is.
03:04And the Russians have said that basically this deal would happen only if sanctions are
03:10removed on Russia.
03:12And we see very clearly that it's in their interests.
03:15But we don't see necessarily a lot of anything in the Ukrainians' interest.
03:20So it's a very biased deal.
03:21And I think that that's what we're hearing most in Europe compared to the United States.
03:26Now we are hearing that Emmanuel Macron, the French president, actually spoke to Donald
03:29Trump earlier today before that summit began.
03:32I mean, what does that say about Europe's need, if you like, to get America's approval
03:37before it moves forward?
03:39Well, I think that whether we like it or not, Trump and Putin have excluded up to this point
03:46to a very large extent Europe from the negotiations and even to a certain extent Ukraine.
03:52But at the same time, the Americans have asked the Europeans on a number of occasions or
03:58said that the Europeans are going to have to take part in, whether it be the president
04:02Trump or Marco Rubio, we've heard various versions of that.
04:07So it does need to be a discussion, a multipartite discussion.
04:13And I think that that's what we're seeing today as well.
04:15Of course, another big question in all of this is Russia and its thinking.
04:20It could be merely using these negotiations as a sort of stalling tactic just to get more
04:25concessions from the U.S., for example, while continuing its military campaign.
04:29I mean, I guess the question is, is Moscow genuinely interested in peace or just dragging
04:35things out so it can pursue its ultimate goal?
04:37No, I think Moscow is not at all interested in peace.
04:40I think we see all of the conditions that they continually make, trying to manipulate
04:46in many ways the American administration, who seems to be more than willing to cave
04:50into a certain number of their demands.
04:53That's why I think our president here in France has tried at the very least to be fairly strong
04:58and to lead the Europeans into showing that it's not only about what the Russians need,
05:03but what Ukraine and what Europe needs is guarantees to security for Ukraine first,
05:08and later for Europe more generally, which is the next worry when it comes to Russian
05:15influence and Russian aggression.
05:17Elizabeth, thanks for sharing your expertise with us.
05:19Elizabeth Shepard Salem, thank you.