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00:00:00Dear Secretary General, you have the floor for roughly 10 to 15 minutes and then we'll
00:00:16have an exchange of views.
00:00:17Thank you so much.
00:00:19And good afternoon and a very happy New Year to you all.
00:00:23It is great to join you today.
00:00:27And this is for me the first time in this big room after so many years to be back now
00:00:33in the European Parliament.
00:00:35In this particular room, I think I was here once before, 10 or 12 years ago, for a big
00:00:39meeting between the European Council and the European Parliament.
00:00:44So I have some memory of this room, but I didn't realize it was that big and there would
00:00:47be that many members visiting.
00:00:49So thank you all for being here and thank you very much for inviting me.
00:00:53Madam Chair, Mr. Chair, Marie-Agnes and David, as you know, I am a European through and through,
00:01:03so I feel very much at home here and it's great to be back here in the European Parliament.
00:01:10Since starting my job in October, I've had many meetings with European leaders.
00:01:15I had the pleasure of hosting the President of the European Commission, I had lunch in
00:01:20her office and then she came for dinner.
00:01:22At my residence, I met with the President of the European Council, Antonio Costa, with
00:01:27Kaya Kalas, the EU High Representative and the European Commissioner for Defence, Kobelius.
00:01:36And I had the honor to participate in the EU Foreign Affairs Council in November.
00:01:41And again, I'm today very happy to meet with you.
00:01:45In the coming months, I intend also to have a somewhat longer meeting with Roberta Metzola,
00:01:52your President, and the heads of the political groups in the European Parliament.
00:01:57And I think this marks the start of a dialogue, but also a continuation of all the efforts
00:02:05to bring NATO and the EU, to bring NATO and the EU closer together.
00:02:12At this particular dangerous time, this particularly dangerous time for security, stepping up of
00:02:19our cooperation, I believe, is essential.
00:02:23Russia's war against Ukraine rages on.
00:02:27At the same time, Russia is accelerating its destabilization campaign against our own countries
00:02:35with cyberattacks, with assassination attempts, acts of sabotage and more.
00:02:41We used to call this hybrid.
00:02:43I tried to get rid of that word hybrid.
00:02:45I would call it a destabilization campaign.
00:02:49And Russia is not alone.
00:02:51It has China, North Korea and Iran by its side.
00:02:55Meanwhile, many other dangers persist, from terrorism to nuclear proliferation, disinformation
00:03:03and of course climate change.
00:03:05And I've said it before and I say it again.
00:03:08I'm deeply concerned about the security situation in Europe.
00:03:13We are not at war, but we are not at peace either.
00:03:18The good news is that we know what to do to protect our people and way of life, now and
00:03:24in the long term.
00:03:26We just need to do it.
00:03:28That means we need to invest more in defense and produce more capabilities.
00:03:32This cannot wait.
00:03:34We need to boost the resilience of our societies and critical infrastructure.
00:03:39And we need to sustain and step up our support for Ukraine to change the trajectory of the
00:03:45war and deter further Russian aggression in the future.
00:03:50On all of this, defense, resilience, Ukraine, NATO and the EU must work hand in hand.
00:03:58Since the start of Russia's all-out war against Ukraine, we have demonstrated, I believe,
00:04:04unprecedented political unity and unprecedented coherence.
00:04:09I have every intention to help keep this going.
00:04:12And I know there is the same level of commitment within the EU's leadership, in the Parliament,
00:04:18in the Commission, in the Council.
00:04:21Stronger defense is my top priority.
00:04:24And this is about spending more, spending better, but also producing more.
00:04:29Not to provoke war, but to prevent war.
00:04:34NATO Allies have certainly increased defense spending.
00:04:37Two-thirds are now spending at least 2% of GDP on defense.
00:04:42And that's good, and I very much welcome their efforts.
00:04:45But to be honest, 2% is not nearly enough.
00:04:50To stay safe in the years to come, Allies will need to spend considerably more than
00:04:552%.
00:04:56As parliamentarians, you know well that security does not come for free.
00:05:01You have a powerful voice, and you have a critical role to play in the debate on the
00:05:07urgent need to increase defense spending.
00:05:11I know spending more on defense means spending less on other priorities, if you do not want
00:05:16to raise taxes.
00:05:17I'm a centre-right politician, so I don't like raising taxes.
00:05:20But of course, you could still do it, as long as the money is being delivered.
00:05:26But generally speaking, spending more on defense means spending less on other priorities.
00:05:32But it can make a big difference for our future security.
00:05:36On average, European countries easily spend up to a quarter of their national income on
00:05:42pensions, health, and social security systems.
00:05:46And we need only a small fraction of that money to make defense much stronger.
00:05:52So I count on you to make sure we all invest more in defense.
00:05:56It is an investment in our security, and the security of our children and grandchildren.
00:06:02We also need to quickly ramp up the production of crucial assets and capabilities, including
00:06:08ships, tanks, jets, munitions, satellites, and drones.
00:06:13A few months ago, I visited engineers in Paris at Thales, and a Rheinmetall factory
00:06:19in Italy.
00:06:20Yes, a Rheinmetall factory in Italy.
00:06:21So this was a subsidiary of Rheinmetall, based outside Rome.
00:06:26European defense industry is doing truly impressive work, and the capabilities they provide are
00:06:32essential.
00:06:33But the reality is that we are not where we need to be.
00:06:37Not yet.
00:06:38Our industry is still too small.
00:06:40It is too fragmented, and to be honest, it is too slow.
00:06:45I welcome and support that the EU is now redoubling efforts to remedy this by enhancing our defense
00:06:51industrial base.
00:06:53And with the European Defense Industry Program, we have an opportunity to bolster our shared
00:06:59security.
00:07:00Yet, while I enthusiastically applaud, I also hear Earth's caution.
00:07:07I believe we must avoid creating new barriers between allies that would only increase costs,
00:07:14complicate production, and hamper innovation.
00:07:18Involving non-EU allies in EU defense industrial efforts is vital, I believe, for the security
00:07:25of Europe.
00:07:27Transatlantic defense industrial cooperation makes us all stronger.
00:07:32At a time when Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran are increasing their defense industrial
00:07:37cooperation to unprecedented levels, it would be an act of self-harm to put up new barriers
00:07:44between allies within NATO.
00:07:47We must also avoid duplicating existing structures.
00:07:51We cannot afford to waste time and resources.
00:07:55But we are all well-placed to complement each other.
00:07:58And that's exactly what we should work to do.
00:08:01NATO is great at the hard stuff.
00:08:03We have the structures in place to set military standards, to set capability targets, and
00:08:09produce them jointly.
00:08:11On the other hand, the EU has the awesome advantage of the internal market.
00:08:17That's a huge soft power element.
00:08:19It can help get defense production going at a much higher pace.
00:08:24And therefore, I believe that cooperation is truly win-win.
00:08:30Our next point is on resilience, another area where both our organizations, EU and
00:08:34NATO, already work closely together.
00:08:37But we can and we must do more.
00:08:42Cyberattacks, acts of sabotage, espionage, disinformation, instrumentalized migration
00:08:48– our countries are increasingly the target of hostile actions.
00:08:53The most recent example is the damage to an undersea power gable connecting Estonia and
00:08:58Finland on December 25th.
00:09:01And a communications cable between Lithuania and Sweden was damaged last November.
00:09:08We must be more resilient to such hostile actions.
00:09:12And we must make clear that efforts to wage war through sabotage and other destabilization
00:09:18will not go unanswered.
00:09:20And that's why tomorrow, and that's why I'm traveling to Finland tonight, tomorrow,
00:09:24together with Finnish President Stab and Estonian Prime Minister Mikko, I am co-hosting
00:09:29the first-ever Baltic Sea NATO Allies Summit in Helsinki.
00:09:33At the summit, a group of Allied leaders will take further steps to prevent any further
00:09:39damage of undersea assets.
00:09:42And to improve the resilience of energy and communications infrastructure.
00:09:46And we will also strengthen NATO's military presence in the region.
00:09:50And of course we will discuss the Shadow Fleet and what to do about it.
00:09:54So we are responding and will continue to ensure no country can exploit us, control
00:09:59our infrastructure or disrupt our societies.
00:10:03This is not a job for NATO alone.
00:10:06We need to work together, leveraging our strength and expertise in tandem to keep our population
00:10:12safe.
00:10:14And then my last point on Ukraine.
00:10:17The future of European and global security hinges on the outcome of the war in Ukraine.
00:10:22We all want this war to end.
00:10:25But above all, we want a peace to last.
00:10:29I don't know how or when the war will end.
00:10:32But I do know peace will not last if Putin gets his way in Ukraine.
00:10:38Because then he will press ahead.
00:10:40He has threatened to start wars in the past and he has started them.
00:10:43Georgia in 2008, Ukraine in 2014 and again in 2022.
00:10:49So what is the next target to be?
00:10:53Peace will not last if war ends with a deal where Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un and the
00:10:59regime in Tehran are high-fiving each other, feeling empowered.
00:11:04A deal in Ukraine that serves their interests paves the way to global instability.
00:11:10So I am convinced that peace can only last if Ukraine comes to the table from a position
00:11:15of strength.
00:11:17For this, it needs our continued help.
00:11:21More weapons and faster so it can defend itself better and negotiate a good deal for Ukraine,
00:11:27for Europe and for the world.
00:11:29NATO Allies are providing more.
00:11:31And the EU support continues to be crucial.
00:11:35Last week, at the Ukraine Defence Content Group meeting in Rammstein last Thursday,
00:11:40the US and European Allies announced further aid to Ukraine.
00:11:45And these additional contributions are vital.
00:11:49NATO and the EU have a lot to do together.
00:11:53And I can count on you, I know, as members of the European Parliament, to keep up the
00:11:58support for Ukraine.
00:12:00For their freedom.
00:12:01And ours too.
00:12:03And I can count on you to continue strengthening our own defences.
00:12:08We can't afford to wait.
00:12:10We are safe now.
00:12:11We are not safe in five years.
00:12:13So we have to start today.
00:12:15Spending more.
00:12:16Ramping up production.
00:12:18Getting resilience right.
00:12:19And supporting Ukraine.
00:12:20I will now stop.
00:12:21I very much look forward to our discussion.
00:12:23I will try to answer as many questions as possible.
00:12:26I know you cannot come back if you do not like my answer.
00:12:29But I will not give you, I hope, any reason to get back to me by answering the question
00:12:34in the first place in the correct way.
00:12:35So I will try to do my utmost.
00:12:38Thank you, dear Secretary General, for your valuable overview.
00:12:49And also for underlining how crucially important the cooperation, the partnership between the
00:12:53European Union and NATO is.
00:12:56I now give the floor first to our Chair of the Delegations for Relations with the NATO
00:13:00Parliamentary Assembly, our colleague Salvatore Di Mio, for a maximum of three minutes.
00:13:05Please, Salvatore.
00:13:08Thank you, Chair.
00:13:09I will speak in Italian for my support.
00:13:17Thank you, Secretary General, for being here.
00:13:20I think it's a comfort that you're here.
00:13:22I'm here.
00:13:23And your presence here shows that your institution wants to strengthen the European pillar within
00:13:33the NATO Parliamentary Assembly.
00:13:37Last November, there was a Parliamentary Assembly.
00:13:40And our delegation clearly expressed its intention to cooperate to ensure that NATO and the EU
00:13:51are two institutions who work in parallel and not in contradiction to one another.
00:13:56It's a difficult, complex work.
00:13:59But I think that we're taking the first steps.
00:14:02And you being here as well shows that we are going in the right direction.
00:14:06You referred to the need to invest more in defense.
00:14:12And I think we need to explain that defense is not just limited to the military side,
00:14:18but that it goes beyond the purely military aspect.
00:14:23It also includes international relations, economic, social relations, and, above all,
00:14:28diplomatic relations.
00:14:32And here, I think the European Parliament can't help.
00:14:35Twenty-three of the Allied countries are European countries.
00:14:42And so we have to explain to the institutions and to ensure that we have this sensitivity
00:14:48to the fact that investment shouldn't be an obligation or shouldn't be seen as an obligation,
00:14:53but a reflection of the awareness that we have to pool our resources and our strengths.
00:14:58They're not substituting the national level.
00:15:01But this is the only way to enhance our capabilities to ensure well-being and opportunity for all.
00:15:14There are political differences within the Allied countries, particularly these could
00:15:20change in light of future elections as well.
00:15:26For example, there are going to be elections in partner countries such as Canada.
00:15:30And we need to be aware that this could risk our solidarity and that there could be risks
00:15:36to the unconditional support that we've expressed towards Ukraine.
00:15:43Because we need to ensure a just and sustainable peace in Ukraine if we're going to ensure
00:15:49a peaceful future.
00:15:50And so here, I would ask you, are there any risks on other fronts?
00:15:55I'm talking about the Mediterranean or the Balkans.
00:15:59These are, of course, important focal points.
00:16:03And we have to ensure that we pay the utmost attention to them.
00:16:06And to conclude, I would just ask you to make an effort to ensure that public opinion is
00:16:13not split, is not divided.
00:16:19We can't simplify the discourse down to defence is arms.
00:16:26We could perhaps also have a youth council within NATO, because I think we need their
00:16:31input as well.
00:16:32And we need to ensure that they understand that it's only together that we can make a difference.
00:16:36Thank you very much and all the best for your work.
00:16:40Thank you, Salvatore.
00:16:43As this is a joint item with SEDE, I will now hand over to Marie-Agnes Schacht-Zimmermann
00:16:49to chair the first round of question and answers.
00:16:52This first round is for AFET and SEDE coordinators by group.
00:16:56This all for two minutes each.
00:16:58So it will be quite a challenge to handle this.
00:17:00But we're in safe hands with Marie-Agnes.
00:17:05OK, let's start with the coordinator of the AFET EPP, Michael Gahle.
00:17:10Yes, two minutes.
00:17:11Thank you very much and a very warm welcome on behalf of the EPP group.
00:17:15Rest assured that not only my group, but the large majority of this committee and the
00:17:19parliament are on your track, on our common track when it comes to strengthening defence
00:17:25and also when it comes specifically to Ukraine.
00:17:27I'm also the standing rapporteur on Ukraine.
00:17:30So thanks for the remarks that you made in this regard.
00:17:33My question goes in the direction, as it is clear, and there is a perspective of membership,
00:17:38but not during the hot phase of the war certainly, but before full membership and after the end
00:17:44of the hot phase, there needs to be security guarantees for the country.
00:17:50How do you see this aspect to be addressed?
00:17:54What can we already now do to get Ukraine closer to NATO?
00:18:01And what are your thoughts about that?
00:18:02And where would you need to push some member states to be more positive about that?
00:18:09That is the one aspect.
00:18:10You rightly spoke about the closer EU-NATO cooperation and you spoke of standards that
00:18:16you have in NATO.
00:18:18Now my question is whether you would be inclined to embark on a new thought, meaning that as
00:18:24we also have a single market on defence, allegedly I say in EU since 2011, we know how little
00:18:31it has been practised, but in the civilian part of the single market we have thousands
00:18:38of standards that are agreed through regulations that are binding.
00:18:42Now I learned that in NATO you agree on standards, but we see in many areas that member states
00:18:47simply don't follow.
00:18:49So would you think starting discussions on behalf of NATO with EU to have existing agreed
00:18:59NATO standards to be transformed in parallel into binding EU regulations?
00:19:05I think that would really get NATO where it should be, that everybody applies the standards
00:19:11because we have treaty violation procedures, NATO has not.
00:19:15So is that an idea for you to grasp?
00:19:18Thank you for, say the EPP, Nicolas Pascual de la Parte.
00:19:22Two minutes, please.
00:19:23Thank you very much and Happy New Year to everybody.
00:19:26We welcome Secretary General here around, yeah, in front of you.
00:19:29Thank you very much.
00:19:30I will raise three quick points for you to answer, please.
00:19:33The first one is how to increase the cooperation between NATO and the European Union, which
00:19:38is one of the main aspects of your speech.
00:19:43I think that here we have capacities and possibilities that you don't have in NATO, and the other
00:19:47way around.
00:19:48For instance, here in the European Union, we can raise funds because we have a budget,
00:19:51a collective budget, something that you don't have in NATO.
00:19:54You have only a very small administrative fund, but you don't have a budget.
00:19:58And secondly, we can legislate even with legally binding directives and regulations.
00:20:03These capacities I think that could somehow be inserted as well in your decision-making
00:20:08process in NATO as one of the main strands of collaborations.
00:20:13I know I'm aware that there's quite a number of strands of work that we are collaborating
00:20:17already, more than 60, 65, 66, but I think that this legislative capacity and the budgetary
00:20:22capacity of the European Union should be somehow inserted as well in your decision-making process
00:20:27in NATO.
00:20:28First question.
00:20:29The second one is capacity planning.
00:20:32I think that now that we have a new commissioner for the first time for defense in the European
00:20:35Union, he will be asked to develop plans.
00:20:39He's going to present the white paper for defense within the next 100 days together
00:20:43with the higher representative, and one of the main items will be the capacity planning
00:20:48for our military industry.
00:20:50How do you intend to avoid duplications concerning this very important thing?
00:20:55The capacity planning in NATO is very well oiled, is working properly well, and you have
00:21:00a great experience there.
00:21:03And the third one is how to shorten the time of developing new weapon systems.
00:21:07So far, the average time is 15 years, since a project system is designed until it is totally
00:21:15operational.
00:21:16I think that we kind of continue with this.
00:21:17How do you intend to shorten up this time to develop new weapon systems?
00:21:22Thank you very much.
00:21:24Okay.
00:21:26For S&T, the AFET, I have been told that nobody will be there.
00:21:31So if there are anybody...
00:21:32Okay.
00:21:33Tony.
00:21:34Tony.
00:21:40Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:21:41Mr. Secretary General, I would like to welcome you to our house on behalf of S&T in your
00:21:46new role in this very timely moment, one week before President Trump takes over.
00:21:54In the line with the NATO strategic concept, I echo that NATO enlargement has been a historic
00:22:00success.
00:22:01It has strengthened our alliance and contributed to peace and stability.
00:22:06You have said recently, and you repeated this afternoon, that we face a growing number of
00:22:11challenges globally, from a more aggressive Russia, to terrorism, to strategic competition
00:22:16with China, as well as increasing alignment of China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran.
00:22:23But beyond this, let me extend my interest to our immediate neighborhood.
00:22:28Secretary General, last year, you have visited Srebrenica in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
00:22:32As experienced leader and former prime minister, you are certainly very well acquainted with
00:22:38security challenges in the Western Balkans, which was once called the power keg of the
00:22:44Europe.
00:22:45Therefore, I will use the opportunity to ask you two questions.
00:22:49How do you see the role of hybrid warfare, not only in the EU, but also in the Western
00:22:54Balkans, where we have seen increased activity by Russia, particularly with disinformation,
00:23:01as in the case of recently opened Russia Today TV in Serbia?
00:23:08And how would you assess the security situation in the Western Balkans in general, and what
00:23:13would be some initiatives or activities you are planning to conduct as a NATO Secretary
00:23:18General?
00:23:19Thank you in advance.
00:23:21Thank you very much.
00:23:23And as in the CD, Yanis.
00:23:33Here, Mr. Secretary General.
00:23:37Thank you very much for your presence in our committee.
00:23:42And I wish you every success in your mandate.
00:23:48You take over the period when we have the war in Ukraine, war in Gaza, regime change
00:23:53in Syria, and the increasing hybrid attacks on the infrastructure of members of the Union
00:24:00and NATO, and even attempts to interfere in the democratic functions of the countries.
00:24:06At this critical time for Europe, we are exactly one week before President Trump returns to
00:24:12the White House.
00:24:14Last week's interview about his plans for acquisitions and annexations against two NATO
00:24:20members, Denmark and Canada, was shocking, to say the least.
00:24:25In this very difficult context, I would like to ask you how you intend to ensure the unity
00:24:30of the Alliance and the protection of the border integrity of all member states.
00:24:35I would also like to ask you to tell us about the cooperation between the European Union
00:24:41and NATO in addressing the hybrid threats that many member states are facing, and more
00:24:48generally, how do you see defense cooperation between the European Union and NATO?
00:24:54Would you be supportive of a more autonomous European defense?
00:24:59Finally, I would like to ask you about defense spending.
00:25:04What would be for you an adequate target instead of 2% of GDP?
00:25:11Wouldn't it be more effective to focus on making better use of defense spending than
00:25:18to ask for its continued increase?
00:25:22Thank you very much.
00:25:26For Affair Patriots, Jordan Bardella.
00:25:28Merci, Madame la Présidente.
00:25:31Thank you, Chair.
00:25:34Secretary General, thank you for being here in this committee today.
00:25:41I wanted to ask about the key role of Turkey when it comes to intimidation towards Greece
00:25:50and their siding with Turkey as consolidating their role on the international scene.
00:25:59Turkey wants to lull Europe into a false sense of security when it comes to NATO.
00:26:08NATO at the same time, their expansionist tendencies.
00:26:12President Erdogan sees NATO as a tool to extend his influence and his country as a gateway to the East.
00:26:25They took part in the aerial exercises in Greece recently, with the Rita drawing our attention.
00:26:38Secretary General, there have been a list of provocations from Turkey.
00:26:50Turkey played an active role in the migration crisis, deliberately using Syrian refugees
00:26:58and being very ambiguous when it comes to Islamism.
00:27:03There was unacceptable blackmail when it came to Sweden joining NATO,
00:27:10and they're the only ones not to join the sanctions against Russia.
00:27:14Then there's the territorial claims in Cyprus.
00:27:19And they're the second largest army in NATO, so they're a major player in NATO.
00:27:28My question is, how do you see these Turkish double standards within NATO?
00:27:44Thank you very much. I'll continue in French, I'm just over here.
00:27:49Secretary General, the French strategy talks about NATO as an alliance where everyone was equal,
00:27:57but one was more equal than the others.
00:28:00And that country that is more equal than the others is now headed by a man
00:28:06who wants to maximize America's interests, his own interests, at the expense of his allies.
00:28:14In an interview with the German press DPA,
00:28:19you said it would be good if the US could liberalize its defense market,
00:28:23so that the Europeans could procure defense equipment more easily.
00:28:32So, according to you or others, would this be a way to create greater peace within the Atlantic Alliance?
00:28:39What we have, on the other hand, is this war on European soil that has shown a war of attrition.
00:28:47So, it's about production and delivering.
00:28:52And we are dependent on external political decisions that we cannot influence.
00:28:57So, it would seem to be in the interest of European states to have a more affirmative dialogue.
00:29:04And that is what Trump would like.
00:29:07Lady Vance has called on European states to not be client countries,
00:29:12but become strong allies that are respected and respect on the continent.
00:29:17So, Secretary General, what do you think about the European pillar within NATO,
00:29:23European super consumer buying across the Atlantic?
00:29:29Or do you think there can be a rebalance by strengthening industrialization in Europe
00:29:35with more spending in Europe and then a more equitable distribution of responsibilities?
00:29:42Thank you very much for Afed. Is he here? Adam?
00:29:48Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
00:29:50It is a privilege to welcome you, Mr. Secretary General, to our committee today.
00:29:55Your leadership at NATO comes at a pivotal time
00:29:59when Europe and the transatlantic community face challenges of unprecedented complexity and urgency.
00:30:06The Russian aggression against Ukraine has shattered the post-Cold War security order
00:30:10and reminded us that peace in Europe cannot be taken for granted.
00:30:14NATO's role in providing collective security,
00:30:17deterring aggression and projecting stability has never been more critical.
00:30:21Tomorrow's summit of Baltic Sea NATO countries
00:30:24highlights the growing importance of the Baltic region in the strategic planning.
00:30:29Russia remains the most immediate and significant threat to NATO's eastern flank.
00:30:34The militarization of Kaliningrad, the use of hybrid tactics in Belarus
00:30:39and the shadow fleet operating in the Baltic Sea pose direct challenges to Poland and the Baltic states.
00:30:46These actions are part of Russia's broader strategy to destabilize the region and weaken NATO's cohesion.
00:30:53So my question to you would be what concrete actions is NATO planning to counter these specific Russian threats,
00:31:00particularly in terms of enhanced forward presence, rapid deployment capabilities
00:31:06and coordinated hybrid response strategies?
00:31:10How is NATO preparing for potential escalation scenarios,
00:31:13including unconventional tactics such as cyber attacks or energy weaponization in this region?
00:31:21And last, we note with great interest NATO's recent assumption of air defense operation in Poland from the United States.
00:31:30This transition underscores Europe's growing role in securing its own defense and supporting Ukraine.
00:31:37Poland's logistic hubs are critical in ensuring the flow of military equipment and humanitarian aid to Ukraine,
00:31:44making their defense a top priority.
00:31:47What are NATO's plans to further foster air defense capabilities in Poland and broader eastern flank,
00:31:54particularly now as threats are evolving?
00:31:59Thank you very much.
00:32:00For SEDI, ECA, RAINIS.
00:32:11Secretary General, thank you very much.
00:32:18For your overview, and it's very hard not to agree with what you said.
00:32:24It makes a lot of sense.
00:32:25Three years have passed since Russia launched its war on Ukraine and 11 years since the first attack.
00:32:38You said you don't like the term hybrid attacks.
00:32:41You refer to it as sabotage, but I would refer to it as terrorism, which is state-supported.
00:32:52My question is the following.
00:32:54What's your vision?
00:32:58What are the obstacles to our development, to our progress?
00:33:05And what solutions do we have when it comes to combating sabotage or state-supported terrorism?
00:33:20Our understanding of what constitutes a threat has changed greatly.
00:33:26It doesn't always mean direct military action, direct military attacks.
00:33:33They take very different forms.
00:33:36So maybe you could share what NATO could do to combat this.
00:33:47Thank you very much, Mark.
00:33:50First of all, thank you very much for your energy and the enthusiasm that you bring to the NATO headquarters.
00:33:58And as a Belgian, we also have high hopes from you as a new Secretary General.
00:34:04And I think that in Europe today, we're in the Kennedy point when it comes to defence.
00:34:09That's not what NATO can do for us, but what Europe can do for NATO.
00:34:13And I have to say that Trump's criticisms might not be the most refined, particularly when it comes to NATO.
00:34:21But I think we do have to look at this directly.
00:34:25And to do this, we need a very clear European military dynamic.
00:34:30Mark, I'm one of those in this house who for years now has been urging for European defence, and I would say even a European army.
00:34:43But I have to say that I do hear from NATO, you know, not too European, don't try to compete with the NATO structure.
00:34:52Now, I understand those warnings.
00:34:54But on the other hand, if NATO wants to survive, then we need strong European structures.
00:35:01And I'm speaking to you as a liberal now.
00:35:04You are well aware that if we want to have a European agreement that we're going to invest more in defence, up to 2, 3, 4 percent,
00:35:13then something has to come back from that.
00:35:16We need to have a European cooperation, European defence industry.
00:35:22And you are a bridge builder.
00:35:24We know that about you.
00:35:25You're a bridge builder.
00:35:27So, a very clear question.
00:35:29Please, can you tell the Americans that they don't need to be afraid of developing of European defence or European purchasing?
00:35:42Because if we have a strong Europe, then NATO can be strengthened, along with the U.S. and Turkey.
00:35:49That's the role that we hope to see from you.
00:35:51Thank you very much.
00:35:52And now, proceed to renew Malik.
00:36:03Okay.
00:36:04Well, I'll speak Dutch as well as a coordinator for renew.
00:36:08First of all, I would like to, of course, welcome you, Secretary General, Mr. Rutte.
00:36:13Welcome to the European Parliament.
00:36:22We welcome you here.
00:36:24Of course, the challenges are great.
00:36:26But I would like to wish you all the best in your new role.
00:36:31I'm sure you'll do very well.
00:36:35First of all, I would just like to say that I find it a good thing that you're here today at the beginning of the new year.
00:36:46And we hope that you will have more contact with the European Parliament, because we have to work together to strengthen each other mutually.
00:36:56Now, on the 2%, we know that some of the member states and the Baltic states are looking at this.
00:37:06Some member states are a bit behind with this.
00:37:09But perhaps for the European Parliament, we have to be stronger, perhaps, on those member states who still need to invest more in defense.
00:37:21In your introduction, you also talked about the fact that the EU has an opportunity under Article 5 to work together with NATO.
00:37:39Perhaps we need new standards to have new investment against these new types of threats, such as hybrids and sabotage.
00:37:49If you look towards the other threats that we're facing, then I think that perhaps we need to have additional legislation for minimum standards.
00:37:58And that's something that we can work on together as well.
00:38:01Thank you very much.
00:38:02Perfect.
00:38:03Now, for Afed Greens, Hanna.
00:38:06Thank you, Madam Chair and Mr. Secretary General.
00:38:10It's good you're here.
00:38:13And I think we need a closer and more collegial cooperation between EU and NATO more than ever.
00:38:19I'd say even more so after January 20.
00:38:22But this leads us to a number of questions.
00:38:25First one on the EU Defense Union.
00:38:28We are just about to start our discussion on the EU White Book for Defense, defining the abstract concept of the EU Defense Union.
00:38:36I wonder how you think the EU Defense Union could best align and fit into NATO structures.
00:38:42And if you could suggest the separation of tasks, what is for EU and what is for NATO, how would that look like?
00:38:49Second question, and you said it yourself, spending more on defense.
00:38:53It is clear that member states need to step up defense spending.
00:38:56I'm not sure if the discussion on percentage is of good value, especially when GDPs might shrink.
00:39:04So it would be interesting for us to get an overall figure of what you think EU member states should be spending in just number of billions of euros in your regard.
00:39:16And as the former leader of the frugals in the European Union and now section of NATO, I'm wondering what you think about Eurobonds as a possible way forward.
00:39:27On the upcoming Baltic Summit, we are seeing a growing number of Russian Jews, name them destabilizing attacks in the Baltic Sea.
00:39:35Is the current setup of NATO task force Baltic good enough or could you give us a sneak preview of what you're discussing tomorrow?
00:39:43And my last question, how do you intend to deal with intra-NATO security threats such as Trump threatening to annex Canada?
00:39:53Thank you very much. And now for Sidi Green's Martins.
00:40:00Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Secretary General, for being here in Parliament.
00:40:04So during Donald Trump presidency, he raised the possibility of the United States leaving NATO and even threatened Denmark over Greenland.
00:40:14So now with a future U.S. president-elect potentially taking a similar stance, many Europeans are questioning whether we can continue to rely on the U.S. for our security.
00:40:27So do you believe Europe should take stronger steps to defend itself in case the U.S. reduce its commitment to NATO in the future?
00:40:35And what specific actions should European countries take now to prepare for such scenario? Thank you.
00:40:44Thank you very much. And for Affe, the left, Mark Bottenger.
00:40:53Thank you, Mr. Rutter. You are Secretary General of NATO.
00:40:59Now, I have just come off the streets where tens of thousands of Belgian workers have been protesting about plans in Belgium and across Europe about cuts to public services, pensions.
00:41:13So here I am now in front of the NATO Secretary General who's saying that we have to invest even more in defense.
00:41:20It's a question of priorities, and that means that there'll be less money for pensions, for teaching, for hospitals.
00:41:27So, of course, I think it is important to pass on the question that people are wondering about.
00:41:34NATO is saying that we need to spend 2% of GDP on defense.
00:41:39You're talking about 4%. Donald Trump president-elect is talking about 5%.
00:41:46Now, for Belgium, we'd be talking about the current 7 billion to 30 billion annually.
00:41:54Now, of course, there will be cuts to social sectors, huge investments in the military.
00:42:02People might think, well, that's tough, but it's necessary.
00:42:07Now, NATO, when we look at the annual defense, costs is around 145 billion.
00:42:17Russia, considered to be the main threat to the east, it's around 10 times less.
00:42:23So, with all of this money that is being spent on defense, why is it that we're not able to defend ourselves?
00:42:33That's the question people are asking.
00:42:36Are we talking about incompetent politicians who simply can't manage the budget?
00:42:41Is it because this money is not being spent properly?
00:42:44Is it just going into the pockets of shareholders of large multinational companies?
00:42:49Why, with this budget that's so much higher than the rest of the world, we're not able to defend ourselves?
00:42:56Vielen Dank for the effort.
00:43:00Yes, and Stanislav.
00:43:03Stoyanov.
00:43:06Is he here?
00:43:07Okay, then for the CD.
00:43:09Oh, sorry, where are you?
00:43:11Excusez-moi, on avait le left CD aussi.
00:43:17There was left CD as well.
00:43:21Yes, Potenga said he is here for both.
00:43:25But anyway, ask your...
00:43:30Okay, anyway, ask your questions and come.
00:43:34Okay, afterwards.
00:43:35First of all, Stanislav for...
00:43:38I'm sorry, I'm not sure.
00:43:40I think we informed the secretariat that there's one speaker for avait left and one speaker for CD left,
00:43:46like for all the other groups.
00:43:47I'm not too sure why that would be different now.
00:43:52Okay, first of all, I just called for Stanislav.
00:43:56Where is Stanislav?
00:43:58Stanislav is not here.
00:44:00He's not here.
00:44:02Okay, that makes it easier.
00:44:04So, take your two minutes and go ahead.
00:44:06And then afterwards, Hans Neuhoff.
00:44:08Is Hans Neuhoff here?
00:44:11Okay, then the floor is yours.
00:44:14You can start.
00:44:16Come on, two minutes.
00:44:19I'll speak in Bulgarian.
00:44:20In the late 90s of the past century, the U.S. diplomat, George Kennan,
00:44:30called the enlargement of NATO as an epic mistake.
00:44:36He is the creator of a theory, and he knew very well the Russians.
00:44:48He knew how dangerous it is to irritate the Russians.
00:44:51But unfortunately, no one in the West heard him.
00:44:54NATO had to be dissolved as the Warsaw Pact was dissolved.
00:44:59Instead, however, NATO continued its senseless expansion
00:45:04without asking the countries whether they wish to join or not.
00:45:10In Bulgaria, we were never asked whether we want to be members of NATO or not.
00:45:15I'm sure that if a referendum is held today,
00:45:19most of the Bulgarians will be against Bulgaria's membership of NATO
00:45:23because being a member of NATO today is not a guarantee of security
00:45:28but of getting involved in manslaughter.
00:45:33The attempts by NATO to engulf Ukraine and create its bases there
00:45:41is the cause for the war there today.
00:45:45The longer NATO exists, the longer there will be a danger for a third world war.
00:45:53Marina, yes. Thank you very much.
00:45:55First of all, Mark Potenga, first of all, he said for both, but no problem.
00:45:59So now, Marie Mesur, for the left.
00:46:04Merci beaucoup.
00:46:05OK.
00:46:06Merci, Madame la Présidente, Monsieur le Secrétaire-General.
00:46:10Thank you, Secretary-General.
00:46:12It seems that you are the man who may have Donald Trump's ear.
00:46:20Now, I don't know whether that's true, but as Secretary-General of NATO,
00:46:23I'm sure you will have an opinion on some of his declarations as United States President.
00:46:28Of course, you are familiar with Article 5 of the treaty,
00:46:32which says that an armed attack against one member of the treaty
00:46:38is considered as an armed attack aimed against all of the signatory states of the treaty
00:46:45and that the other countries are expected to come to the aid of the country being attacked.
00:46:50Secretary-General, the United States and Canada are a part of NATO,
00:46:55but they're under threat from the expansionist tendencies of Donald Trump.
00:47:01There is an increase in the interference and risk to other NATO countries.
00:47:08I'm thinking particularly here of Germany and the United States.
00:47:10So what is your view of Donald Trump?
00:47:15Would he use an armed force to annex Greenland
00:47:19and that he wants to launch an economic war against Canada to make it part of the United States?
00:47:25Also, Elon Musk is a part of the administration in America
00:47:30and is trying to interfere in Germany and the United States.
00:47:32So under Article 5, my question is, what should NATO member states do
00:47:36if the United States decides that it will actually take Greenland by military force?
00:47:42So, colleagues, we have just 10 minutes left.
00:47:47After 10 minutes, I mean it makes sense that Mr. Roche will answer it.
00:47:52So I start. I have lots of questions, but it's, sorry, not possible.
00:47:57So we start with Mr. Stier, EPP.
00:48:01Thank you, Madam Chair. One minute.
00:48:06Very well.
00:48:08Mr. Secretary-General, a year ago you were in Sarajevo and that was a visit that was very…
00:48:15was very instrumental for the European Council at that time
00:48:18to decide to open up negotiations for Bosnia-Herzegovina with the EU.
00:48:22Now, as the Secretary-General, how do you see the path of that country towards NATO?
00:48:27Because it also has its membership action plan.
00:48:29And second, we discussed a lot about the cooperation between NATO and the EU.
00:48:33We have it on the ground in Bosnia-Herzegovina with Altea.
00:48:36Is that a framework that you would like to expand in the overall cooperation between EU and NATO?
00:48:45Perfect. Thirty seconds are better.
00:48:48Then, Mrs. Nkia.
00:48:51Thank you very much, Madam President, and I'm here.
00:48:55Welcome to the European Parliament, Mr. Secretary-General.
00:48:58I think none of us has missed the President-elect Donald Trump's last troubling remarks, I would say,
00:49:07suggesting that Greenland should become a part of the US.
00:49:09He even stated that he will not exclude any military intervention,
00:49:17saying that towards another NATO ally is unacceptable.
00:49:23In these times of threats to international law,
00:49:25NATO countries must stand united, as you yourself said.
00:49:28Such statements are therefore unacceptable and play also into the hands of Russia and China.
00:49:34As Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen stated,
00:49:37discussions about Greenland's future must start and end in Nuuk.
00:49:41As Social Democrats, we urge you, as the Secretary-General of NATO,
00:49:46to stand firm in support of Denmark and Greenland.
00:49:50In these times of rising geopolitical tension especially,
00:49:53it is vital that we stand united in defense of international law.
00:49:58Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:50:01Good afternoon, Mr. Secretary-General.
00:50:04Mr. Secretary-General, I'm a former President of NATO Parliamentary Assembly
00:50:07and thank you for your support for the parliamentary dimension of the Assembly.
00:50:13Two weeks ago, Poland has opened the Polish Presidency of the Council of the European Union
00:50:19and Prime Minister Tusk and President Koszta already announced
00:50:23that there will be an informal meeting of the European leaders at the beginning of February
00:50:28and dedicated to the topic of defense.
00:50:31And you will be present as the Secretary-General but also the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
00:50:38What are your expectations from this meeting?
00:50:40And the second thing, I'm also a current standing reporter on the U.S.
00:50:45and in the light of the outcome of the American elections,
00:50:49I would like to thank you for this dialogue you have from the day one
00:50:54with the new President-elect and his administration.
00:50:59We must maintain our strategic partnership with the U.S. and NATO,
00:51:03but the first test of this should be Ukraine.
00:51:06Do you agree with this and what are your expectations with this dialogue?
00:51:12Now, Roberto Banaggi.
00:51:14Yes, I'm going to speak in Italian.
00:51:17On the 5th of March, 2023, a British intelligence update said
00:51:26that the Russians were fighting but with munitions shortages.
00:51:34The von der Leyen Commission has often said that Russians were stealing SIM cards
00:51:45from Ukrainians to use them in their own data systems,
00:51:48and now we're hearing that the huge Russian losses are increasing every day to 1,500 per day.
00:51:54Now, this is clearly a situation of a crisis for Russia against a modesty-sized country like Ukraine,
00:52:02and particularly given that Europe is spending 350 billion on the market,
00:52:08whereas Russia is spending 140 for defense while it's at war.
00:52:14How do you think that Russia would be able to attack a NATO country in the next four years
00:52:19and we should be upping our defense spending?
00:52:21How can you be saying that?
00:52:22And now, Mr. Giadi.
00:52:25I'm going to speak Greek.
00:52:31The events recently in Syria, combined with the other developments in the Middle East,
00:52:38according with specialists, give a probable war between Israel and Turkey,
00:52:44and Turkey threatened Israel in a meeting recently.
00:52:48His supporters, he wanted him to reach Jerusalem,
00:52:52and Turkey constantly has a casus belli and threatens Greece with war,
00:52:58and he stopped Sweden and Finland to become members of NATO,
00:53:05and Turkey is occupying 30% of the Republic of Cyprus,
00:53:09which is a country of the European Union,
00:53:11and most states of the European Union are members of NATO.
00:53:16We try to understand the problems that this country creates for NATO, Turkey.
00:53:22That's why we're talking with other MEPs in order to create a surveillance committee
00:53:27to survey what Turkey does in order to help you.
00:53:32In closing, we have to see whether the Republic of Cyprus can become a member of NATO,
00:53:39and we have to examine the future role of Turkey in NATO.
00:53:42Thank you very much.
00:53:43And now, Mr. Druese.
00:53:45Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:53:47I will speak in German.
00:53:51Secretary General, with these talks with Lloyd Orsken on the 9th of January,
00:53:58you mentioned this issue of burden sharing there,
00:54:02but the reality when it comes to Ukraine looks very different.
00:54:08Some of our colleagues don't seem to be up to date regarding the reality of the Ukraine war.
00:54:13It has been subjectively lost.
00:54:16Trump will end the war by Easter.
00:54:21Now, my question is, how would you deal with this new reality,
00:54:26even if you already mentioned some of these points?
00:54:28Then a question on my country, Germany.
00:54:32Germany has contributed to the loss of its own ability to defend itself.
00:54:41So how do we substitute this capacity?
00:54:51It would have been good to have more information on this before the destruction of Nord Stream 2.
00:54:55Thank you very much.
00:54:56Thank you, Chair.
00:54:57Welcome, Secretary General.
00:54:59There is nothing...
00:55:02Hi, I'm here.
00:55:04Nothing has changed since 2022 in our job, and also not since the 5th of November.
00:55:10We just have a chance to have Ukraine in a stronger negotiating position.
00:55:17And we need to make sure that we resist the Kremlin narratives
00:55:26and that we need to support Ukraine with all of the military means that it needs.
00:55:30But often, EU and NATO member states are holding back and not sending what is necessary to Ukraine.
00:55:38So what are you going to do about that?
00:55:41I think we have to keep Ukrainian NATO membership on the table.
00:55:52They have to decide themselves what they are and aren't members of.
00:55:56It seems that the Russian fleet are using our waters as they wish.
00:56:03Please make sure that you read this with Finland in the coming days.
00:56:06Hello, Mrs. Kalinetti.
00:56:12Thank you, I am here.
00:56:14Thank you, Mr. Secretary General.
00:56:16You have just passed 100 years, Mark, since becoming NATO Secretary General.
00:56:22Congratulations.
00:56:23I was very happy to learn that tomorrow there is Nordic-Baltic NATO Summit.
00:56:30And my question is, what do you have in your portfolio as a proposal,
00:56:38how to secure, to do more to secure the Baltics and the eastern flank from future Russian aggression?
00:56:47What concrete steps will be taken during your tenure as Secretary General to achieve this goal?
00:56:56Mr. Sovindar.
00:56:59Thank you very much.
00:57:01I'm here.
00:57:02Yeah, I come from Denmark, but nevertheless I'll not speak about Greenland.
00:57:06I think a lot of questions have been put.
00:57:09I'll speak about, I'll ask about the Seattle fleet.
00:57:13When you come to Finland tomorrow, I think another way of weakening the aggressor
00:57:20is to ensure that they cannot keep sailing Seattle fleet ships through in the Baltic Sea.
00:57:29The countries around the Baltic Sea are doing what they can.
00:57:33Germany, Finland, Denmark have all had the problems.
00:57:36But how do we make it coordinated?
00:57:39Will you follow that up tomorrow, Mr. General Secretary,
00:57:44and find some proposal where we are sure we act together,
00:57:48both to weaken the incomes of the Russians to make the war,
00:57:53but also to prevent the catastrophe it would be if one of these old ships
00:57:59are putting the oil out in the narrow straits of Denmark and Sweden, et cetera.
00:58:07Thank you very much.
00:58:08Mr. Terras.
00:58:11Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary General.
00:58:15I wish you all the best and all your mastering the Dutch politics.
00:58:22You should be very good in keeping NATO together in the coming very difficult years.
00:58:28But my concern goes to your meeting tomorrow.
00:58:33I understand that that is something which the Baltic States and Nordic States are concerned of.
00:58:39But throughout NATO's history, there's always been attempts of regularization of the security.
00:58:46And that is one example of regularization.
00:58:50I think the Spanish and the Portuguese must be as much interested in the security in the Baltics
00:58:57as the Baltic States countries.
00:58:59So that would be my concern.
00:59:02Thank you very much.
00:59:03Last but not least, but time is running out, Mr. Kramer.
00:59:07Thank you very much for the last but not least.
00:59:09And congratulations, first of all, General Secretary, and good luck in this difficult task ahead.
00:59:16I'm just back from a couple of weeks of campaigning on the German campaign trail.
00:59:20And I'll tell you very clearly, people do understand the threat and also the necessity to invest in our defense.
00:59:27What a lot of people do not understand, however, is why we still afford this level of inefficiency
00:59:33when it comes to procurement and when it comes to coordination between our procurement agencies.
00:59:38According to the Minister report, we could save 30% of what we are spending
00:59:44if we did that in a more coordinated manner, more effectively.
00:59:49So my question is, how do we get more bang for the buck?
00:59:52And more concretely, how are you going to ensure better coordination, especially between the NSPA,
00:59:59the NATO Procurement Agency, and, for instance, the European Union?
01:00:03How can we make sure that we don't have double structures there, but that people get their money's worth in terms of defense?
01:00:14Mr. Secretary General, it's up to you now to answer as many questions as possible and to summarize.
01:00:19And please bear in mind that we have to close in about 14, 15 minutes.
01:00:23The floor is yours.
01:00:24But before I give you the floor, may I just welcome among us the longest-serving member of the European Parliament in our history
01:00:31and the long-serving chair of our Foreign Affairs Committee, Elmar Broek.
01:00:35A warm welcome to you.
01:00:38Good to see you.
01:00:39And now, after Elmar, it's Mark.
01:00:42Good to see you.
01:00:44And thank you for all the questions.
01:00:45Let me try to deal with as many as possible.
01:00:50So, first of all, on the issue of the – yeah, of course, elections will be taking place always,
01:00:58so we will have elections all over Europe and in Canada, elsewhere.
01:01:01We have to deal with them.
01:01:03This is democracy.
01:01:04I'm happy that we have these elections.
01:01:06I think you are, too.
01:01:09But – and on the second question, which was on the Mediterranean and the Western Balkans and youth,
01:01:16specifically in youth, we just launched a process for a youth advisory council,
01:01:21and we will again host a youth summit.
01:01:25I totally agree that we should also focus on the Mediterranean, the southern neighborhood.
01:01:31There is a special – a Secretary General, a special representative for the southern neighborhood.
01:01:34He worked very closely with Jordan, but also – of course, in Iraq, we have a big mission,
01:01:39but also with countries like Tunisia and Mauritania, other countries in the southern neighborhood.
01:01:44And we have a close cooperation with basically most of the countries over there.
01:01:48And then on the Balkans – and many of you raised that, so maybe I can answer that,
01:01:52because of the first question also going into the Balkans.
01:01:55Yes, of course, we have some worries there, particularly, of course, the situation between Bosnia –
01:02:02in Bosnia, but also between Serbia and Kosovo.
01:02:07When I get to Bosnia first – and there were some other questions on Bosnia also here.
01:02:12We are closely monitoring, of course, security developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
01:02:17I think NATO allies are always very clear.
01:02:21We will not allow a security vacuum to emerge in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
01:02:27and more generally in the Western Balkans.
01:02:30It is crucial that the EUFOR mandate is renewed in November.
01:02:35EUFOR plays a key role in maintaining a safe and secure environment,
01:02:39with support from NATO under the Berlin Plus arrangements.
01:02:43And, of course, NATO and the EU cooperate closely on the ground, as you know, in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
01:02:49And we support a robust EUFOR Altea.
01:02:54And we will keep in close contact at all levels to ensure that we manage all potential challenges effectively together.
01:03:04That's on Bosnia.
01:03:05And we are also very much in contact, of course, with Kosovo, but also with Serbia,
01:03:11to make sure that also the elections coming up in Kosovo later – I think it is later this month or early February –
01:03:17that they will not lead to destabilization.
01:03:21That's also crucial.
01:03:22But, again, in the Western Balkans, we really have to make sure that we take a close look into this
01:03:29and stay closely connected.
01:03:31This is a crucial, crucial neighborhood.
01:03:34Then on the security guarantees, yes, well, I would say let's play it step by step.
01:03:41First of all, we have to make sure that Ukraine is in a position of strength as soon as it enters into peace talks.
01:03:48That's what we can do now, to make sure that they get into a position of strength.
01:03:52As far as we are concerned, in the future, Ukraine should become a member of NATO.
01:03:57That is what we promised Ukraine.
01:04:00We are building that bridge now by all the bilateral security agreements between many, many allies and Ukraine,
01:04:08but also through the $40 billion pledge.
01:04:11The ANSETU organization, which is the command in Wiesbaden,
01:04:15has started a couple of weeks ago taking over tasks of the previous structures.
01:04:20So that is now all taking place.
01:04:23And as I said in my short introductory remarks, whenever peace talks start to happen,
01:04:28it will be crucial that going forward, Russia has to understand that post those talks,
01:04:34it is impossible for them to again attack Ukraine.
01:04:39So part of the peace talks has to be the exact way of going forward
01:04:44in terms of Ukraine's relationship with NATO, preferably within NATO.
01:04:50But it's, I think, too early now to exactly sketch out what that exactly will mean.
01:04:56Also something we have to discuss with the new incoming US administration.
01:05:00But let's hope that we will get to that point as soon as possible,
01:05:03that we have the luxury of discussing the ongoing security guarantees for Ukraine,
01:05:08because that would mean that we have started into talks and that we have moved to the next phase.
01:05:13And at this moment, clearly Ukraine is not there,
01:05:17because they cannot at this moment negotiate from a position of strength.
01:05:22And we have to do more to make sure, by changing the trajectory of the conflict,
01:05:27that they can get to that position of strength.
01:05:29On standards, totally agree.
01:05:32NATO is strong here.
01:05:35The EU is strong on all the soft power, including the internal market,
01:05:38ramping up defence production.
01:05:40And when it comes to, let's say, industry standards,
01:05:44so from the NATO standards to more industry-specific standards,
01:05:47and sometimes what you will see is that you have 155 ammunition.
01:05:51And you would think that is one particular design
01:05:54for every company which is producing the 155 ammunition,
01:05:58but you would then be amazed how many companies would have
01:06:01some very small specific additions to their systems,
01:06:06so that you can only use their 155 ammunition and not generally.
01:06:10So this is something we are working on.
01:06:12And I mentioned already that we have started to work closely together.
01:06:16Of course, we are all colleagues from previous days,
01:06:19so that's easy with Cara Callas, with Ursula von der Leyen, with Antonio Costa,
01:06:23but also with the new Defence Commissioner, Kobelius.
01:06:27And one of the things we agreed is that we will set up
01:06:30a high-level coordination group between NATO and the EU.
01:06:34And more specifically, I agreed with Ursula that whenever there is an issue
01:06:39which is not solved in that committee, that she and I will phone each other
01:06:42and we will only hang up when we have agreed,
01:06:44even if it takes the whole weekend and we cannot eat in the meantime.
01:06:48So we will have to deal with this issue and we will have to solve them, and we will.
01:06:52And she is a former Defence Minister of Germany.
01:06:54We are great friends, so this should work, because we have to make sure
01:06:59that we are in a position of maximum strength vis-à-vis Russia and others
01:07:04and not spending too much time internally between the EU and NATO
01:07:09when it should be easy to get to an agreement.
01:07:11And that's also an answer to how to get the EU and NATO closer together,
01:07:15more coordination, but light touch, no heavy structures
01:07:18with lots of minutes and meetings and committees.
01:07:21Let's make it as easygoing as possible so that we can focus on the main salient points
01:07:28and the big issues.
01:07:30On capacity planning, yes, absolutely, we have to work on this.
01:07:34I discussed this with the Defence Commissioner how to do this
01:07:38and totally agree on shortening the time to develop new weapon systems.
01:07:45That's particularly crucial that we do that.
01:07:49And we can learn here, of course, from what we see in Ukraine.
01:07:52And Ukraine is extremely fast now at bringing new developments to the battlefield,
01:07:58but Russia is then extremely fast in implementing what Ukraine has just implemented two weeks ago.
01:08:04So we are learning from this.
01:08:06And this whole idea that we can in detail describe what a design should look like,
01:08:12including the colour and the type of paint you use, etc., is silly.
01:08:16The big risk in EU and NATO is that the better is the enemy of good.
01:08:21And we don't have to go for the 10 on a 1 to 10 scale or for the A+.
01:08:26Sometimes the B is good enough.
01:08:28And speed sometimes is more important than perfection.
01:08:32Then, of course, the new incoming administration, they will start next Monday.
01:08:38We have seen some press conferences, some things being said by some people in the US.
01:08:45But I would say let's take this forward starting from next Monday onwards.
01:08:50What I know from Donald Trump and from the incoming administration
01:08:54is that they were the ones pushing us for more defence spending.
01:08:57They were successful at this and they were right.
01:09:00I mean, we did not spend enough.
01:09:02And now, luckily, we are overall close to the 2%.
01:09:07The problem is, of course, that in the meantime, the 2% is not enough.
01:09:11And some of you asked me, OK, what should it be?
01:09:14I don't want to commit to a number.
01:09:16But as I said in my Carnegie talk after my speech,
01:09:20when you look, so let's say, at a sort of first glance at the capability requirements
01:09:25emerging from the internal planning process with the NATO,
01:09:28it will be north of 3%.
01:09:30But then you are right if you do joint buying and making use of the NSPA,
01:09:35Luxembourg structures and everything else we have within NATO and the EU,
01:09:39you can deduct joint buying, you can deduct innovation.
01:09:43For example, Ukraine is experimenting with new radar systems
01:09:47which are extremely less expensive than some of the more traditional radar systems
01:09:52to detect enemy missiles coming in.
01:09:55Just one example, if you deduct that,
01:09:58you don't have to get to what we are afraid of you would need now,
01:10:02which is 3.6, 3.7.
01:10:04You would bring that number somewhat down,
01:10:06but it will be impressively more than the 2% we are at now, I'm afraid.
01:10:11But that is a structured process within NATO.
01:10:14We will conclude it over the coming month with the defence ministers
01:10:17latest in June before the summit in The Hague.
01:10:20Then on the more autonomous European defence,
01:10:22well, it's great to have a sort of European NATO,
01:10:24but then forget about the 2%.
01:10:26Then you have to bring it up to 8%, 9% or 10% if you really want.
01:10:29And you have to build your own nuclear capability
01:10:32and it will take 15, 20 years
01:10:34if you want to build a European NATO without the US.
01:10:37At this moment, the US is spending over 60%
01:10:41of all the money being spent within NATO charity, over 60%.
01:10:44That means the other 31 are doing less than 40%, including Canada.
01:10:50So it is an illusion that you can build a European NATO
01:10:53over the next 10 or 15 years.
01:10:55And why would you?
01:10:57I mean, the transatlantic relationship, I think,
01:10:59after the First World War, but particularly after the Second World War,
01:11:02has served us very well.
01:11:04So why would we disconnect from the US?
01:11:06I would be against it.
01:11:07But again, if you want this for ideological reasons,
01:11:10then you have to quadruple or even more your defence spending
01:11:14and then it will still take you 10 or 15 years.
01:11:17And I agree, better spending always better than more spending,
01:11:20but I think it is both.
01:11:22It is better spending, like making use of the joint procurement,
01:11:25but at the same time, we need to do more spending
01:11:27because simply, when you look what we spent during the Cold War,
01:11:31the levels were north of 3% generally,
01:11:34and the 2% we are now is absolutely not enough.
01:11:39When you look what Russia is producing now in three months,
01:11:42it's what the whole of NATO is producing from Los Angeles up to Ankara
01:11:47in a full year, and, well, and then Russia is not bigger
01:11:53than the Netherlands and Belgium combined as an economy.
01:11:55The two of you together is the Russian economy.
01:11:58And they are producing in three months
01:12:00what the whole of NATO is producing in a year.
01:12:02And don't forget, when you compare Russian numbers,
01:12:05that what you can buy in Russia for the same money is, of course, much more
01:12:11because they do not have our high salaries,
01:12:14they don't have our bureaucracy, they can move at a higher speed
01:12:17and they have basically created a war economy
01:12:20and the whole industry is now on a war footing.
01:12:23So don't compare their 8% or 9% defence spending,
01:12:27one third of the 8% or 9% of GDP,
01:12:30one third of the whole state budget being spent on defence.
01:12:33When you cobble it all together,
01:12:35it might be less than what the European NATO is doing,
01:12:37but, again, you can buy so much more, do so much more,
01:12:40and they have this urgently together.
01:12:42Then opening up the US defence market versus spending more in Europe,
01:12:47it is both. It is absolutely both
01:12:49because in Europe we have fantastic companies.
01:12:53But, for example, on air defence,
01:12:55and on the fifth generation fighter jets,
01:12:59we cannot lose out on the US.
01:13:03So you need both, and there is so much money going around,
01:13:06and this was my argument with Trump,
01:13:08open up the US defence markets
01:13:10because if you want to buy something in the US,
01:13:12you have to go through the Congress, the White House,
01:13:15the Defence Department, the Pentagon, etc.,
01:13:17before you can get your hands on a Patriot system.
01:13:20So make that easier, and at the same time,
01:13:22there is so much money going around
01:13:24that Thales and Rimetal and Leonardo
01:13:28and all the fantastic defence companies here in Europe
01:13:30will have plenty of opportunity
01:13:33to put in extra production lines, extra shifts,
01:13:35and, by the way, they have to do this.
01:13:37And don't wait for the 10-year contracts they are all asking
01:13:40because we will not be able to create 10-year contracts,
01:13:43but they know the demand is there for the long term.
01:13:46So at least defence industry, ramp up production
01:13:49and be good businessmen,
01:13:51and don't lose out to the South Koreans
01:13:53because South Korean is getting into the market.
01:13:55Poland, Romania, Estonia, they are all buying South Korean
01:13:58because European and American defence companies
01:14:01are not delivering at the speed we need and at the prices.
01:14:04We need then, of course, sabotage and all that,
01:14:08and as I said, hybrids, it should be, I think,
01:14:11more towards destabilising actions by the Russians,
01:14:16and we should do more than just tracking what they are doing.
01:14:19And one of the great things of what will happen tomorrow
01:14:22in Finland and Helsinki is that we'll have a meeting
01:14:24discussing how we can counter what the Russians are doing
01:14:28and also how we can survey the Baltic Sea,
01:14:32and the Russians don't like that,
01:14:34that we have a bigger NATO presence there.
01:14:36But that is the result of some of this anger-dragging,
01:14:40and if it is really just a mistake
01:14:42of Russians not being able to sail ships,
01:14:44then we should launch huge initiatives by the EU and NATO
01:14:48to have a huge training course for all Russian sailors
01:14:52to learn how to navigate their ships
01:14:54and experience what it means
01:14:56when your anchor is for 100 miles on the seabed.
01:15:01Then on Trump, yes, he has been right many times.
01:15:06I agree.
01:15:08And he might be right many times in the future,
01:15:12and we have to dialogue with him.
01:15:14And I like the reaction of Mette Frederiksen,
01:15:18the Prime Minister of Denmark,
01:15:20who did not immediately react to what he said about Greenland,
01:15:23but she brought it back to the issue which is at stake,
01:15:26which is the Arctic,
01:15:28and how to make sure that in the Arctic
01:15:30we have a strategic issue to be discussed
01:15:33between NATO, the US, within NATO, and the EU,
01:15:36how to deal with the Arctic, etc.
01:15:39And this is not about who rules or controls Greenland.
01:15:42This is, of course, about making sure
01:15:44that the Arctic stays the same.
01:15:46So, yes, Europe can rely on the United States.
01:15:48I'm absolutely convinced the United States
01:15:50will stay within NATO.
01:15:52I'm not worried about that.
01:15:54But we have to make sure
01:15:56that the argument which the US had in the past
01:15:59and still can have to a certain extent at this moment,
01:16:02that because of their spending,
01:16:05we can spend more on other stuff
01:16:07because they spent it on defence,
01:16:09that we take out that argument by spending more ourselves.
01:16:12And when I say spending more ourselves,
01:16:14that is better spending,
01:16:16joint procurement, innovation, etc.
01:16:18But, again, also more spending.
01:16:20The 2%, everything I'm seeing at this moment,
01:16:23is not nearly enough.
01:16:25And if we don't do it, we are safe now,
01:16:27but not in four or five years.
01:16:29So if we don't do it, get out your Russian language courses
01:16:32or go to New Zealand,
01:16:34we are safe right now to spend more.
01:16:36And that's exactly the debate we have to finalise
01:16:38over the next three or four months,
01:16:40to stay safe in this part of the world
01:16:42and defend ourselves.
01:16:44On Eurobonds and all that, that's for the EU.
01:16:46I just want you to spend more money.
01:16:48And where you get it from,
01:16:50I had some clear views on this in the past,
01:16:52but I've been forced by the new team
01:16:54to not discuss that any longer,
01:16:56as long as the money is there.
01:16:58Then, it's not...
01:17:00I've never committed to 4%.
01:17:02There was somebody saying,
01:17:04I think it was here that I mentioned 4%.
01:17:06No, I've not committed to a new number.
01:17:08Just saying 2% is not nearly enough.
01:17:11I would say, if I was in Bulgaria,
01:17:14I would be very happy to be in NATO.
01:17:17But, of course, I accept your argument.
01:17:20But I do not agree.
01:17:22Then, on Greenland-Canada,
01:17:25I already went to that.
01:17:27Bosnia, I already went to that.
01:17:30Then, on...
01:17:32I think, finally,
01:17:36Turkey.
01:17:37Well, in 2016,
01:17:40it was Turkey with Germany
01:17:42and the Dutch were then heading
01:17:44the European Union Council,
01:17:46EUCO,
01:17:48and we were able to come to a deal
01:17:50with the Turks
01:17:52in the Syrian refugee crisis.
01:17:54And I was very happy with that,
01:17:55because that made it possible
01:17:56to bring down the numbers of Syrians
01:17:58coming into Germany, Sweden, and the Netherlands.
01:18:00Because, particularly, you remember
01:18:02the then-chair of the European Parliament
01:18:04saying, or no, sorry,
01:18:06Viktor Orban saying,
01:18:07nobody wants to go to Hungary,
01:18:08they all want to go to Germany.
01:18:10And that's true.
01:18:11And in 2016,
01:18:13we risked that the number would reach a million.
01:18:15But because of this deal with Turkey,
01:18:17it did not.
01:18:18And I have always felt
01:18:19that Turkey is a worthwhile member
01:18:21of NATO, playing its role,
01:18:23and, yes, also defending its interests,
01:18:25like everybody here is defending its interests.
01:18:28Within the EU and within NATO.
01:18:30And that's fine.
01:18:31But they are a very valuable member
01:18:33of the Alliance.
01:18:34And then, maybe, finally,
01:18:36on the eastern flank,
01:18:38one of the things I learned,
01:18:40madam, is that, yes,
01:18:42I'm happy with the forward
01:18:44land forces, etc.
01:18:45All the initiatives we have now
01:18:47to secure the eight countries,
01:18:49including now Finland,
01:18:50on the eastern flank.
01:18:51But at the same time,
01:18:52let's never forget that, in the end,
01:18:54we have to also, at the same time,
01:18:56look towards the Russians.
01:18:57That whenever you would decide
01:18:59to attack us,
01:19:00it is not only the Latvian
01:19:02military which will fight you back,
01:19:04not only the forward land forces.
01:19:06It will be the whole of NATO,
01:19:08including our mighty navy,
01:19:10our mighty land forces,
01:19:14our fighter jets,
01:19:16which will take you out.
01:19:18So not even dare to take one
01:19:20square kilometre of Latvia.
01:19:22And when you say you are on the eastern flank,
01:19:24it is The Hague, London and New York
01:19:26at the eastern flank.
01:19:27Latvia, yes, maybe physically,
01:19:29but we are all on the eastern flank.
01:19:31We are all in this together.
01:19:32There are no first or second class
01:19:33citizens in NATO and the EU.
01:19:35It's really crucial that we understand this
01:19:37and that our collective defence
01:19:38is really collective and connected.
01:19:40So I think I tried to answer
01:19:42as many questions as possible.
01:19:46Thank you, Secretary General.
01:19:53Dear Margarita,
01:19:54thank you for this valuable exchange of views.
01:19:56It was a real pleasure to have you here today.