Christopher Gregg QPM worked in a variety of roles at West Yorkshire Police for 37 years - but it was the hunt to catch Peter Sutcliffe, dubbed the Yorkshire Ripper, that defined his career.
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00:00Chris Gregg found himself as a junior detective investigating the IRA bombings before starting
00:13work on the investigation to catch Peter Sutcliffe, who was dubbed the Yorkshire Ripper.
00:19As Gregg made his way up the ranks, he helped to catch some of the UK's most notorious criminals,
00:25such as cop killer David Bieber, schoolgirl murderer John Taylor, as well as leading the
00:31inquiry into the murders Harold Shipman committed in West Yorkshire.
00:40In an exclusive interview, Chris gives us a unique insight into investigating Sutcliffe,
00:46as well as catching the so-called Ripper hoaxer in a case which spanned his entire career.
00:55Hey up, I'm Sophie Malan and this is the Mrs Yorkshire podcast, sponsored by Whitby Seafoods, the home of scampi.
01:13I'm in a sterile interviewing room. You can hear all the echoes due to the lack of furnishings,
01:19but this time, it's Chris's turn in the hot seat.
01:25You've worked with some really high-profile criminals over your career. Can you tell us a bit more about them?
01:31Yeah, it goes back a long way, Sophie.
01:361974?
01:381974. And a little bit further back than that, because, you know, as of the time.
01:44In 1971, I was a 15-year-old lad who was thinking, right, where is my life going to take them?
01:51And I joined the police cadets. I'd be now called a Nepo baby, because my dad was a police sergeant.
01:59Hashtag Nepo baby.
02:00Hashtag Nepo baby.
02:02Yeah, so I ended up joining the force, because my dad was in and all the rest of it,
02:08but I thought, well, that seems quite an interesting career using the CID.
02:11And so my early life was detectives, and they used to have house parties where there were a lot of CID guys there
02:21with the wives and girlfriends and things.
02:23So I was familiar with that life.
02:26And when I joined the cadets, my first taste of major crime investigation was the horrific bombing on the IRA,
02:35on the M62, 1973, where I think there were 13 service men and the families lost their lives in a coach blast.
02:44A 16, 17-year-old was a cadet and was drafted in as the T-boy to the incident room.
02:50I'd never experienced anything like it.
02:52It was being run from an old Victorian police station in Cleck Eaton.
02:56And it was in winter, and this was a major, major, you know, multi-murder investigation.
03:04George Oldfield, who I'd never experienced before at that time, was the lead detective,
03:10ably assisted by Detective Superintendent Dick Holland,
03:13and they went on to be major parts of the Yorkshire investigation years later.
03:18But that was my first insight, and I was only a kid myself.
03:23You know, my job was literally what George Oldfield wanted.
03:27You know, I was sent out to the shops or on errands, making the tea,
03:32but I was in the heart of a major investigation, a terrorist investigation at that point,
03:39where the whole focus was to find out who'd done it.
03:43And the sombre seriousness of that environment has never left me,
03:49because I've never felt anything as scary in terms of the atmosphere.
03:55You know, this was really serious stuff.
03:58And the detectives, all to me, looked like my dad.
04:02You know, and I was, I felt out of place in a way, you know,
04:05that be seen and not heard, like just a fly on the wall,
04:09witnessing what happened for three months.
04:12And it was a taste of something that, in my career as I went on,
04:18I was going to experience in different roles and ranks, obviously,
04:21but that was my first insight into it.
04:23And so from a very early age as a kid,
04:26I was seeing what was happening in the world of major crime investigation
04:30from, you know, right in the heart of it.
04:33And how did you make your way up those ladders?
04:36It was a journey that you have to learn your craft,
04:40I suppose, in every profession.
04:42I started on the first run as a young constable in uniform.
04:47And then I always had aspirations to be detective,
04:51probably because of my, you know, my dad's background and everything.
04:54And I did my time on the beat and then was looking towards the island.
04:59And at that time, I was working and living in Huddersfield,
05:03which is my hometown.
05:05And in 1978-ish, was applied to be a detective.
05:12And you had to go through your training and do your exams and everything else.
05:16Very different to today because, you know, at that time,
05:21it was seen as a very almost prestigious passage to be, you know,
05:28entering into the CID, the world of CID.
05:31And there were lots of hurdles to overcome to get in there.
05:35Even down to the point of when you'd done your six-month training,
05:39you'd done all your exams,
05:40you'd be on your three or four-month course
05:42to learn all the criminal law aspects of this.
05:45You then had the final step of being interviewed
05:49by two very senior detectives.
05:52And I remember one of mine was Dick Holland again,
05:54coming across Dick Holland.
05:56He was one of them.
05:57And you didn't, you know,
05:58they didn't suffer fools, these guys at the time.
06:01And having the experience of sitting in front of them,
06:06you know, in a low chair,
06:07and they were in the high chairs behind the desk,
06:09a couple of, you know, gnarly detectives
06:11superintendents.
06:13And being interviewed for half an hour,
06:16and you either had the thumbs up or the thumbs down,
06:19and you're a career dependent on that.
06:21And anyway, fortunately, I got the thumbs up.
06:23And off I went to start my career
06:25as a detective constable at Huddersfield, CID.
06:29I'd only been a detective a few months
06:31when the Yorkshire Ripper investigation was underway in the force.
06:37There was a murder in Huddersfield,
06:38and Helen Ripker was murdered in the Hill House area.
06:44A major investigation was launched,
06:46and the whole team moved into town to investigate it,
06:52led by George Oldfield.
06:53And I was called into the incident room
06:56to do a job in the incident room
06:58on that murder investigation.
06:59I'm seeing it firsthand now,
07:01the mechanics of how the investigation was administrative,
07:05because I was part of the old manual system
07:07of documenting, raising actions,
07:11indexing with a team of people,
07:13like-minded people around,
07:15and all the calls were coming in,
07:17and all the intelligence was coming in.
07:19There were a few interesting things happened there
07:21that stick in my mind.
07:24One was Helen Ripker,
07:25the girl who was killed,
07:27her sister, Rita,
07:28who were twins.
07:29Yeah.
07:29I think we were only 19, 18 or 19.
07:33I remember George Oldfield,
07:34who said, obviously,
07:35a lot of bad press through the Yorkshire Ripper investigation,
07:38so to me.
07:39But the murder of Helen was the seventh murder.
07:46It turned out to be the eighth, actually.
07:48We thought it was the seventh,
07:49but Yvonne Pearson's body hadn't been found by that time.
07:53She'd been killed before Helen Ripker,
07:55but her body wasn't found until afterwards.
07:58So we thought Helen was the seventh victim.
08:01One afternoon, we were told that Mr Oldfield
08:04was going to bring in Helen's sister, Rita,
08:08to see what was happening in the incident room.
08:10I was in with the staff.
08:12There were maybe about 15 staff
08:14around a big table in the incident room
08:18with a big metal wheel
08:19with all the index cards on.
08:21The whole room was filled with maps and plans
08:25and timelines of events.
08:27And we were told he was going to bring Rita Ripker
08:31and to see.
08:32And when George Oldfield brought her in,
08:35the atmosphere in the room,
08:37you know, you could just cut with a knife
08:39because he was very, very empathetic with her.
08:43And I didn't realise at the time why.
08:46And he was so caring with her and gentle
08:49as he showed around the room.
08:52Didn't introduce people.
08:53He was just showing around the timeline,
08:55taking around the charts on the wall,
08:57explaining, you know,
08:59where Helen had been last seen.
09:00And these are like 15 minute blocks of time,
09:03what we're going to try and explain to her
09:06and give her confidence in a way
09:07that we're trying to do our best here.
09:09Yeah.
09:09To piece this together.
09:11I felt he was very, very caring with her,
09:15you know, because she,
09:16this was within a day or two of her losing her sister.
09:20Afterwards, I learned that he'd lost his own daughter.
09:24Ah.
09:24I think he's, he'd lost her daughter and she's about 15 or 16.
09:29And it just made sense to me.
09:30I thought, hmm, I see that.
09:31That lived experience.
09:33Yeah.
09:33I thought, I get, get this.
09:35You know, it all made sense.
09:38One of the other things that happened during that time
09:41in the incident room was,
09:42it was when the first of Yorkshire Ripper Hooks
09:47letters came out.
09:48And I was one of the team again round the table.
09:52But this letter was in an exhibits bag.
09:55So we thought, interesting,
09:56because letters were coming in all the time.
09:57Yeah.
09:57The documents, information.
10:00I remember reading this through the plastic bag
10:03and a lot of it didn't make sense to me at the time
10:06because it was saying like,
10:07don't forget Preston 75,
10:09which to me meant nothing at that time.
10:12Yeah.
10:12But it was obviously part of the,
10:15you know, the plan of the person
10:17that sent the letter to try and inspire belief
10:20that these were genuine.
10:23And it all unraveled later.
10:26But that, that was something that stuck in my mind
10:28about being aware of what, what is this letter?
10:31Why is it in a plastic bag?
10:33You know, for, it was obviously being taken
10:35more seriously than others.
10:38But didn't think too much of it at that time.
10:41But it was an interesting time.
10:43That was the first of, I worked after the incident room
10:48as a young detective.
10:49I worked on the investigation team
10:51and I was transferred onto the investigation team
10:53and worked on the next three major investigations,
10:57which was Josephine Rittaker,
10:59Barbara Leach and Jacqueline Hurd.
11:00So I was on the detective-directed inquiry teams
11:04where I was going out
11:05and doing all the things that detectives would do
11:08on murder investigations such as this,
11:11such as taking statements, questioning suspects.
11:15What was it like dealing with the pressure, though?
11:17Because obviously,
11:18I know you've dealt with the likes of David Bieber
11:21and different notorious criminals,
11:23but when you're dealing with somebody like
11:25the Ripper Hope, such a well-known case,
11:27was there a lot of external pressure on you
11:30to perform in that situation?
11:32As a young detective on a murder investigation,
11:36you have the pressure of doing the action
11:41that you are required to do.
11:44And policing has to be, if it's done properly,
11:47a disciplined organisation with standards,
11:51working protocols, working to systems and processes.
11:56That's how it functions.
11:58And there is pressure on you to make sure
12:01that you are doing your job properly.
12:03For example, as a BERT,
12:06the higher you go up through the ranks,
12:08there are different pressures on you.
12:09The person who has, obviously,
12:12for obvious reasons, the most responsibility
12:13is the person who's leading it.
12:15And, you know, investigations will stand or fall
12:19on the decisions you make.
12:21And people can lose their lives.
12:22You know, if you've got a killer
12:24that is still at large,
12:26other lives can be lost.
12:29But if you're a detective constable,
12:32you have huge pressure on you
12:33because you are required to go
12:36and knock on the door and take the stones
12:38and potentially be the person
12:40who is, first of all,
12:42coming face to face with that suspect.
12:43And taking the Ripper case as an example,
12:49he was questioned nine times
12:51during the course of that investigation.
12:53There were pairs of detectives
12:55who interviewed him,
12:56so there were 18 detectives
12:57who would have come face to face
13:00with Peter Swift,
13:01before he was caught.
13:04Unfortunately, none of them had the,
13:08they didn't have the full deck of cards,
13:11but they had some cards.
13:12And, you know, I think
13:14on a couple of occasions,
13:16he should have come out in handcuffs
13:18and he didn't.
13:20And other people lost their lives subsequently.
13:22Now, that puts pressure on, you know,
13:26because I know that the senior detectives
13:29who were leading it,
13:31the George Oldfields,
13:33the Jim Hobsons,
13:34the Dick Hoggans,
13:35they were all leading it at various parts.
13:38They had set the investigation traps
13:41and processes
13:42to get the killer into the net.
13:45The killer was in the net
13:47several times.
13:49That net had a big hole in it
13:50because the investigation
13:53was relying on people like me
13:54at my rank.
13:55Yeah.
13:56Knock on the door.
13:57Me and my colleagues were sent out
13:59to question that person
14:00and didn't recognise
14:03that the killer was in front of us.
14:06And so, yes,
14:07there is pressure on you.
14:09And at that time,
14:11it isn't quite the same now,
14:13but you had to write your final report.
14:17If I was tasked with questioning somebody,
14:20you had to write off
14:22either saying,
14:23I'm satisfied this person is not involved.
14:27Or if not,
14:29if you couldn't satisfy,
14:30you had to really go and satisfy
14:32the powers that be
14:33that there was good reason for that
14:35and the extra work was needed.
14:38Now, I did that on a couple of occasions,
14:40but it was very hard
14:41to make that happen
14:43if the bosses at the time
14:47were not wanting to expend resources on it.
14:51And so, you had to make a case.
14:53Yeah.
14:53And so, yes,
14:54there are pressures on you,
14:56but with the Ripper,
14:59I felt, you know,
15:01when the case was eventually solved
15:04and Peter Sutcliffe was arrested,
15:07West Yorkshire Police,
15:08the stigma of the force hanging over it,
15:11it lasted for many years
15:13because of the failings.
15:14And right,
15:15there were some big mistakes made.
15:17Not deliberately, obviously.
15:19You know,
15:19it was the people who were in charge of it
15:23were doing their best to try and capture it.
15:26And I saw it at first time.
15:27They were.
15:28There was not,
15:29you could not say there was any lack of effort there.
15:32There was all sorts of breakdowns,
15:34assisting breakdowns,
15:35people breakdowns,
15:37decisions made that wouldn't be made in hindsight.
15:41There were some catastrophic decisions made,
15:43which cost people the lives,
15:45I think, ultimately.
15:46What was particularly frustrating for you
15:49as a young detective?
15:50Well, at the time,
15:52there was a lot of emphasis being placed on
15:54the authenticity of the letters,
16:00the tapes,
16:00which turned out to be a hoax.
16:03I can see why they were taken seriously.
16:08But I do think,
16:09and I am talking in hindsight now,
16:11that if this were happening today,
16:13what would have happened
16:14would have been
16:15that the investigation would have continued
16:17on the direction it was,
16:19and the investigation to identify
16:22the author of the letters
16:23would have been kept separately.
16:24Yeah.
16:25Because they should have been...
16:26You were two in tandem.
16:27They should have been two in tandem,
16:29but running separately.
16:31When the letter came in,
16:33the first one that mentioned about,
16:35don't forget,
16:36Preston 75,
16:37that was relating to a lady called Joan Harrison
16:39who was murdered in Preston in 1975.
16:42And it was almost like the teaser
16:45that the author of the letter was sending
16:48to say,
16:49hey, I know what I'm talking about here.
16:51You should take me seriously
16:52because I've killed somebody else.
16:55And that lady was murdered
16:57and battered to death.
17:00There were certain situational things that happened
17:03that, as it turned out to be,
17:06were coincidences.
17:08Whereas,
17:09until it was known there were coincidences,
17:13it could be,
17:14and was taken,
17:16that it could be the same killer.
17:17And one,
17:19for example,
17:19was that
17:20Joan Harrison
17:22had been bitten
17:23by the killer
17:24and the killer
17:26had a gap
17:28between his teeth.
17:29And there was semen
17:30as well
17:31and that was
17:32shown to,
17:33this was pre-DMA,
17:34was shown to be a beast,
17:36someone with a beast secretus,
17:37or a B blood group,
17:38which was only 6%
17:39of the population.
17:41Josephine Whittaker
17:42was bitten
17:42when she was
17:45being killed
17:47and the killer
17:48had a one-eighth gap
17:50between the teeth.
17:51When the letters came in,
17:53the saliva on the envelopes
17:54was shown to be a beast secretus.
17:57And when Irene Richardson
17:59was murdered in Leeds,
18:01one of the earlier victims,
18:05the killer had placed
18:06her boots
18:07on the back of her legs
18:08in like a ritualistic
18:12kind of fashion
18:13with the feet
18:14turning outwards
18:15and a coat over her.
18:17And Joan Harrison
18:18had a boot
18:19placed between her legs
18:21and her coat
18:23was laid over.
18:23So these were the reasons
18:25that those leading
18:27the hunt
18:28for the killer
18:30of the Yorkshire victims
18:31were thinking
18:32this could be connected.
18:33And because it had been
18:34mentioned in the letter,
18:35one of the letters,
18:36they started taking it
18:37seriously.
18:38after Sutcliffe was
18:40sentenced for 13 murders
18:42and 7 attack murders,
18:44the thoughts about
18:45who'd sent these hoax letters
18:46was almost
18:47resigned to history.
18:49It was not being pursued.
18:51But it never left me
18:53in a way,
18:54and I think it was,
18:56having been in that incident room,
18:57going on through my career now,
18:59through the detective ranks,
19:01seeing the catastrophe
19:04that the person
19:06who had sent
19:07those letters
19:07had caused,
19:10probably unwittingly,
19:12you know,
19:12because they perhaps
19:14didn't intend them,
19:15or didn't expect them
19:16to be taken
19:17as serious as well.
19:19And three women
19:20lost their lives
19:21after that.
19:23Would they have been
19:24saved?
19:24Who knows?
19:25But what the person
19:27who involved themselves
19:29in sending those letters
19:31did was,
19:33it resulted in a lot of
19:34resources being
19:35distracted from the inquiry.
19:37It resulted in
19:38too much emphasis
19:39being placed on
19:40Geordie accent
19:41and so on and so forth.
19:43Would he have been
19:43caught beforehand?
19:44Who knows?
19:45But it certainly didn't help.
19:46And I remember
19:47talking to a couple
19:48of heads of CID
19:51at the time
19:51to say,
19:53look,
19:53those ripple letters
19:55and the tape,
19:56surely,
19:57you know,
19:57we can't be beyond
19:58the witted man now
19:59if we can get them
20:00tested,
20:01the stamp,
20:01the back of the stamps,
20:02you know,
20:02and the saliva
20:03and the seals,
20:06that we might be able
20:06to get a match.
20:07We've got DNA now.
20:09Yeah.
20:10I didn't get anywhere
20:11with that.
20:12Of course it was,
20:13you know,
20:13we've got things
20:15happening today
20:15that we need to deal
20:16them with,
20:17which,
20:17you know,
20:18we can't argue with that,
20:19but I just thought
20:20this would be a quick thing,
20:21you know,
20:22provide,
20:23send the letters,
20:24send the envelopes
20:25off for testing.
20:25It just seemed
20:26so straightforward.
20:28It was a case of,
20:30well,
20:30we don't even know
20:30where the letters are.
20:32It was,
20:32and there have been,
20:33you know,
20:34reviews done in the past,
20:35which I obviously
20:36wasn't aware of,
20:36but they'd had reviews
20:38to find these letters
20:39and do this.
20:41Anyway,
20:41I eventually ended up
20:42in a position where
20:43I didn't have to ask
20:45anybody here.
20:45I was now head
20:46of SIADY,
20:48in charge of the
20:49most senior rank
20:50in the force at the time.
20:51Something had been in,
20:52I think,
20:53the Sunday People
20:53only a few weeks earlier
20:55which I'd seen,
20:56which was a bad headline
20:58which was saying,
20:59you know,
20:59useless cops in Yorkshire
21:01have lost the letters
21:03or something.
21:04I thought,
21:04where does this come from?
21:06You know,
21:0625 years afterwards,
21:08this is still being
21:10leveled at the force,
21:12you know,
21:12so we've got to put this
21:15to bed once and for all
21:16and sort this out,
21:18you know,
21:19or if we can't
21:20start it down,
21:21it won't be for the lack
21:21of time.
21:22And we had a lot
21:23happening in the force
21:24at the time.
21:25We had an awful lot
21:26happening.
21:27We'd got the,
21:28you know,
21:28the aftermath
21:29of the 7-7 bombings
21:30that happened in London
21:32on the underground
21:33which all the,
21:35you know,
21:36the terrorists
21:37were here in Yorkshire
21:38on our patch.
21:39We were working
21:40in the Met
21:41on that.
21:43But Freedom of Information
21:44was coming in.
21:45It was on the 1st of January
21:472005
21:48and I was also aware
21:54that we needed
21:55to have all our ducks
21:56in a row
21:57for all the big cases.
21:59I was conscious
22:00that a lot of the material
22:02was still spent
22:03all over the force
22:04because the murders
22:05had happened
22:05in all the different
22:05towns and cities.
22:07And so I quietly
22:08just tasked
22:09a couple of detectives
22:12to start pulling together
22:13a couple of objectives.
22:15The first one was
22:16collate all the information
22:18electronically.
22:20And secondly was
22:21and locate
22:23where the letters
22:24and get the provenance
22:26of what's happened
22:27to the letters
22:27and the tapes.
22:29And they peddle the way
22:30at that in the month.
22:30They were on the
22:31cold case team
22:32we had
22:32and they peddled
22:32the way
22:33doing that.
22:34And all the information
22:36and documentation
22:37and whatever was left
22:39was archived
22:40in our measure.
22:41Prime store,
22:42the electronica
22:42so it can all be
22:43searchable.
22:44How long did that
22:45all that take?
22:45It took a few months
22:47but they weren't
22:48just doing that
22:50they were doing
22:50all sorts
22:50and this was like
22:51a part of their
22:53overall work
22:54that they were doing.
22:55And they were
22:55keeping me updated
22:56as they were going
22:57and they were saying
22:59right we're
23:00we're going down
23:00to London
23:02to see the scientists
23:03who were doing
23:04the fingerprint examination
23:05of the letters.
23:06They couldn't find
23:07the letters
23:07of the detectives
23:08anywhere in the
23:10stores
23:12and
23:12they'd even
23:13they'd been up to
23:14the local laboratory
23:15at Weatherby
23:16for example
23:17which covered
23:18our area
23:19and full zone.
23:20and the forensic
23:22science laboratory
23:22at Weatherby
23:24had a draw
23:26that was marked
23:27RIPPER
23:27letters
23:28and TIP
23:29which you would think
23:30okay
23:31overdraw
23:32empty
23:33as it would be
23:34not there.
23:35So
23:36that was the starting point
23:38but the journey
23:39then took them on
23:39they did a really good job
23:40because they
23:41they just followed
23:42the trail
23:43everywhere
23:43these things
23:44had been sent.
23:45So
23:45they came back
23:46and said
23:47look
23:47we spoke to the
23:48scientist
23:48who
23:49the fingerprint expert
23:50who
23:50the two of them
23:51who did work
23:52and they were tasked
23:54with trying to lift
23:55fingerprints from the paper
23:56of the letters
23:57and the envelopes.
23:58They used a chemical
24:00called ninhydrin
24:01which is still used today
24:02but ninhydrin
24:03turns
24:04paper
24:05purple
24:06when they put the chemical
24:08on to lift the fingerprints out.
24:10And
24:11the two detectives
24:12said
24:12oh the scientists
24:13were that determined
24:14they couldn't
24:15there were no fingerprints
24:16on any of the
24:17on any of the
24:18letter pages
24:19or the envelope
24:20and they said
24:21that they were that determined
24:22that it didn't just
24:24turn it purple
24:25they put that
24:25ninhydrin
24:26after ninhydrin
24:27on it
24:28turned them black
24:29and they had
24:29for health and safety
24:31even in those days
24:32and this was in
24:33the late 70s
24:34early 80s
24:35they had to
24:35fumigate the London
24:36laboratory
24:37for all the
24:37health and safety reasons
24:38after using all this
24:39chemical
24:39and the letters
24:41were destroyed
24:41so we found
24:43that the letters
24:45no one
24:45resisted
24:46all the
24:47were
24:47pristine photographs
24:49of them
24:49that had been
24:49taken
24:50you have to
24:52just make sure
24:53that
24:54you know
24:55nobody's just
24:57kept a snippet
24:58of something
24:58because I'm
24:59I'm aware
25:00and scientists
25:01in my
25:02experience
25:04depending who the
25:06scientist is
25:06not all of them
25:07but depending
25:08on who the
25:08scientist is
25:09and I
25:10know that
25:11at times
25:12if there has
25:13been
25:14for example
25:15a bloodstained
25:15garment
25:17that
25:18the scientists
25:19keep a little bit
25:20often
25:21because they don't
25:22know what's
25:22around the corner
25:23with forensic
25:24developments
25:25we thought
25:26we won't just
25:27ask the laboratory
25:29because if you
25:30ask you can just
25:31be told back
25:32verbally
25:33that's pretty
25:33in writing
25:34so we're putting
25:34in writing
25:35to the laboratory
25:36saying
25:37can you please
25:38confirm
25:38that you have
25:40got no items
25:41or remnants
25:42of any of the
25:43letters
25:43blah blah blah
25:44from the
25:45from the letters
25:47or the tape
25:48and
25:49weeks if not
25:52a couple of months
25:53went by
25:53and we heard
25:54nothing
25:54and suddenly
25:56we out of blue
25:58we got a call
25:59to say
26:00we have found
26:02Peter Grant
26:03who I knew
26:03very well
26:04Peter was the
26:05head of the
26:05measure crime
26:05unit
26:05in the laboratory
26:07and Peter
26:08said that
26:09Valerie Tomlinson
26:11who was a
26:12biologist
26:12fantastic
26:13biologist
26:14and if there
26:16was anybody
26:16you'd want
26:17to do it
26:17it would be
26:17Valerie
26:18looking
26:18but it's
26:18a valley
26:19found
26:19in a place
26:21in the laboratory
26:22where
26:23it shouldn't
26:24have been
26:24a glass
26:28slide
26:28well
26:30there were
26:30two glass
26:31slides
26:31and in
26:32between
26:32the two
26:33glass
26:33slides
26:34was a
26:35three
26:35centimeter
26:36piece
26:39of the
26:40seal of
26:40envelope
26:41number
26:42two
26:42and it
26:43was perfectly
26:44preserved
26:44and she
26:45blew
26:46dust off
26:47the slide
26:48because it
26:48had been
26:49there for
26:4925 years
26:49and it
26:52was there
26:52perfectly
26:53preserved
26:53so we
26:54now had
26:55something
26:55tangible
26:56to examine
26:57so the
26:58hard work
26:58in some
26:59ways
26:59had been
26:59done
27:00finding
27:00that
27:01and by
27:02finding
27:03that
27:03it unlocked
27:04now
27:04the whole
27:05case
27:06because
27:06with a
27:07perfectly
27:07preserved
27:08three
27:09centimeter
27:09piece
27:10of a
27:10seal
27:11that had
27:12been cut
27:12out
27:12from the
27:13scientists
27:13before sending
27:14it down
27:15to London
27:15for fingerprint
27:16testing
27:17the envelope
27:17they just
27:19had the
27:19forward
27:20thinking
27:20to think
27:21we might
27:21not have
27:22the means
27:22today
27:23in 1981
27:24so they'd
27:26have that
27:26possibility
27:27which some
27:28of them
27:29did
27:29and we
27:29knew
27:29that
27:30scientists
27:30tended
27:31to do
27:32that
27:32and once
27:33we found
27:34it
27:34and thank
27:35god
27:35we did
27:36find it
27:36then that
27:37just
27:38unlocked
27:38the whole
27:39thing
27:39because
27:39it was
27:39quickly
27:40examined
27:41and it
27:41came back
27:42with a
27:42one in a
27:43billion
27:43match
27:44on a
27:45chap
27:45called
27:46John
27:46Humble
27:47when
27:48Peter
27:49rang me
27:51and said
27:52Chris
27:53I'm going
27:55to believe
27:55it
27:55we've got
27:57a match
27:57on this
27:58guy
27:58my first
27:59words to
28:01him were
28:01when he
28:01ran
28:01because
28:02he was
28:02in
28:02I think
28:03I might
28:04have been
28:04in wait
28:04for the
28:05meeting
28:05he said
28:07where's
28:09he from
28:09not
28:09because
28:10if
28:11he was
28:11from
28:11Sunderland
28:12which
28:13is where
28:13the
28:14accent
28:15had been
28:16proved
28:17to be
28:17from
28:18from
28:18the
28:18castle
28:18town
28:19area
28:19of
28:19Sunderland
28:20from
28:20the
28:21experts
28:22who
28:22analysed
28:22the
28:23tape
28:23phonetics
28:23and
28:25I said
28:26where's
28:27he from
28:27he said
28:27he's
28:27from
28:28Sunderland
28:28I said
28:29who is
28:29it
28:29he said
28:30he's
28:30a guy
28:30called
28:31John
28:31Humble
28:31he said
28:32he's
28:32only been
28:33on the
28:33database
28:33a few
28:34years
28:34he was
28:35doing
28:35some
28:35petty
28:35crime
28:36a few
28:36years
28:36ago
28:37and that
28:38was the
28:38breakthrough
28:38so within
28:39hours
28:40we had
28:40sent a team
28:42up to
28:42the
28:43north east
28:44and we
28:45brought him
28:45back
28:46down to
28:46Wakefield
28:47but he
28:47was
28:48completely
28:48paralytic
28:49he was
28:50a serious
28:51autopilot
28:51it took
28:52him two
28:52days
28:52to sober
28:53up
28:53we couldn't
28:54question him
28:54for two
28:55days
28:55and so
28:57that was
28:57the start
28:58then of
28:59unlocking
29:00and unpicking
29:01who had
29:02done this
29:03and who
29:03was this
29:03character
29:04and so
29:05it all
29:05unfolded
29:06from that
29:06point
29:06it was
29:08a moment
29:09in my
29:09career
29:10in my
29:10life
29:10where
29:11that
29:12case
29:13and
29:13investigation
29:14had
29:15played
29:15such a
29:16big part
29:16in my
29:16early
29:17career
29:18and
29:19I was
29:21now coming
29:22towards the
29:22end of
29:22my career
29:23so I
29:24almost
29:24started
29:25and finished
29:25with that
29:25case
29:26because
29:26digging
29:27him out
29:28at that
29:29stage
29:29I knew
29:31he wouldn't
29:31ever been
29:32identified
29:33because shortly
29:33after this
29:34and I left
29:35the force
29:36within a couple
29:37of years
29:37I think I was
29:38probably the
29:39last person
29:40in the force
29:40when I
29:41left
29:42that had
29:42worked
29:42as a
29:43detective
29:43on the
29:45the
29:46Sutcliffe
29:47cases
29:48but
29:49so I
29:49know
29:50that
29:50there
29:51was
29:51nobody
29:51else
29:52around
29:52who
29:52was
29:52invested
29:53in
29:53finding out
29:54who
29:54sent
29:55the
29:55hoax
29:55letters
29:55but shortly
29:56after that
29:57the
29:57laboratories
29:58at
29:59weather being
29:59across the
30:00country
30:00that
30:00they were
30:01home
30:01office
30:01run
30:02they were
30:02all
30:02disbanded
30:03so the
30:05items
30:05sent to
30:08major stores
30:09and
30:10centralised
30:10archives
30:11so I
30:12think the
30:12chances of
30:14ever
30:14ever
30:15ever
30:15finding
30:15who
30:17sent those
30:18tapes
30:18would have
30:19been lost
30:19forever
30:20so
30:20did you
30:21question
30:21humble
30:22or did
30:23you have
30:23to direct
30:24other
30:24detectives
30:25yeah I
30:27didn't
30:27question
30:28him
30:28personally
30:28but it
30:30was
30:30detective
30:30sergeant
30:31Stuart
30:31Smith
30:32and his
30:33colleague
30:33Roger
30:34Horner
30:34and so
30:35the plan
30:36had been
30:37I think
30:37for say
30:38five
30:39interviews
30:39with the
30:40suspect
30:40were planned
30:41out
30:41first ones
30:42were fairly
30:43gentle
30:43underarm
30:44you know
30:44bowling action
30:46just to
30:47try and
30:48get them
30:49ease
30:49get them
30:50talking
30:50without
30:51declaring
30:51all your
30:51hand
30:52at that
30:52point
30:52and it
30:54was a
30:54little bit
30:55like that
30:55so it
30:55was following
30:56usual
30:57kind of
30:58process
30:58but I
30:59was monitoring
31:00it live
31:00monitoring it
31:01from a
31:01room
31:01near to
31:02the interview
31:02room
31:03ahead of
31:04that
31:04and again
31:05aware of
31:06you do
31:08not want
31:08to lose
31:08any evidence
31:09if the
31:10person is
31:11confessing
31:11for example
31:12because you
31:13don't want
31:13to be
31:14having the
31:15evidence
31:15deemed
31:16inadmissible
31:17because you
31:17done something
31:18wrong
31:18talk about
31:19belt and
31:20braces
31:20you know
31:20I knew
31:21everything
31:21we could
31:22get wrong
31:23if we
31:23weren't
31:23careful
31:24so John
31:25Humble
31:25we didn't
31:26know what
31:27mental health
31:28issues he
31:28had
31:29so we
31:29had to
31:29make sure
31:30we had
31:30him
31:30psychiatrically
31:32assessed
31:33we needed
31:33to make
31:34sure that
31:34he was
31:34fit for
31:35interview
31:35when he
31:36was
31:37interviewed
31:37we
31:39needed
31:39to make
31:40sure
31:40if
31:40someone
31:41challenged
31:41his
31:42mental
31:45state
31:46or his
31:46IQ
31:47or anything
31:48like that
31:48that he
31:49we didn't
31:50want to be
31:50deemed
31:50we'd done
31:51something wrong
31:52so we
31:53made sure
31:53that he
31:54had an
31:54appropriate
31:54adult there
31:55from social
31:56services
31:56he had his
31:57lawyer there
31:58there were
31:58several people
31:59in the interview
32:00at the same
32:01time
32:01plus the
32:02detectives
32:02it was
32:04one of the
32:05most fascinating
32:06interviews
32:07really because
32:08I've never
32:09known anybody
32:10in interview
32:11react like
32:13John Humble
32:13we often
32:14are faced
32:15with no
32:16comment or
32:17no reply
32:17but usually
32:19the suspect
32:20would say
32:22to the
32:22deceptors
32:23no comment
32:23the question
32:24would be
32:25asked
32:25it's a bit
32:26said
32:26no comment
32:27but John
32:28Humble
32:29was different
32:29the detectives
32:30asked him
32:31a question
32:31and he
32:34would
32:34answer
32:35by shaking
32:37his head
32:38as a no
32:39or nodding
32:40as a yes
32:41so he wasn't
32:42speaking
32:43so as soon
32:43as we saw
32:44this
32:44we thought
32:46right he's
32:47not wanting
32:48us to hear
32:48his voice
32:49for analysis
32:50so he wasn't
32:53speaking
32:54and
32:55because what
32:57I was
32:57you know
32:59the team
32:59conscious of
33:00was
33:00okay
33:01we've got
33:02the person
33:02who licked
33:03the envelope
33:04which we knew
33:06was one in a
33:07billion
33:07DNA
33:08but
33:09have we got
33:10the author
33:11of the letters
33:11because
33:12he perhaps
33:14could have
33:15said
33:15well I licked
33:16the envelope
33:17but I wasn't
33:18the author
33:18I just was
33:19asked to lick
33:19them for a
33:19mate
33:20I just asked
33:21to post
33:21them for a
33:22mate
33:22so we knew
33:23you know
33:24you have to
33:24think of all
33:24what could be
33:25said
33:25to counter it
33:26so in our
33:27interview plan
33:28we had
33:29the first
33:30interview
33:31is the
33:32low
33:32lower
33:33you know
33:34the underarm
33:35the gentle
33:36opener
33:36but then
33:38I think
33:38third interview
33:39down
33:39we planned
33:40to drop
33:40the DNA
33:41into it
33:42so we wanted
33:43to give him
33:43the rope
33:44in a way
33:45and to have
33:46his
33:46explanation
33:49you know
33:50he knew
33:50why he'd
33:50been arrested
33:51but he
33:53didn't know
33:53the evidence
33:53we had
33:54after the
33:55first interview
33:55he thought
33:57there's no
33:59reason why
33:59he doesn't
34:00want us
34:00to hear
34:00his voice
34:01because
34:01he knew
34:04it would
34:04be the
34:04giveaway
34:04but we
34:06have to
34:06disclose
34:07to the
34:07solicitor
34:09what the
34:10content
34:11of the
34:11interview
34:12is going
34:12to be
34:13in the
34:14break
34:14between
34:14the
34:15interview
34:15the
34:15interview
34:16went on
34:16for about
34:16half an
34:17hour
34:17it was
34:17a fairly
34:17short
34:18interview
34:18the first
34:19one
34:20but in
34:20the
34:20head of
34:21word
34:21with the
34:21detectives
34:22he said
34:22look
34:23drop the
34:24DNA
34:24there's no
34:26point
34:26at the
34:26moment
34:27you know
34:27wasting
34:28time
34:28in the
34:28second
34:28interview
34:29drop
34:29the
34:29DNA
34:30on the
34:31next
34:31interview
34:31but part
34:32of the
34:33plan
34:33for the
34:33whole
34:34interview
34:34process
34:35was
34:35that
34:35we
34:36wanted
34:36if he
34:37was
34:37talking
34:38to
34:39ask
34:39him
34:39to read
34:40out
34:40the
34:41transcript
34:41of
34:42the
34:43tape
34:44that was
34:44sent
34:44the
34:45I'm
34:45Jack
34:46tape
34:46the
34:46notorious
34:47I'm
34:47Jack
34:48your
34:49boys
34:49are
34:49letting
34:49you
34:49down
34:50George
34:50and
34:51we
34:52wanted
34:53that
34:53because
34:53we
34:54thought
34:54that
34:54even
34:55if he
34:55was
34:55admitting
34:56or denying
34:57it
34:57we could
34:57get the
34:58tape
34:58analysed
34:58so that
34:59we
34:59had
34:59evidence
35:00that it
35:01was
35:01the
35:01same
35:01voice
35:02from
35:02the
35:02original
35:02one
35:02so
35:04after
35:05the
35:05first
35:05interview
35:05when he
35:06was
35:06doing
35:06his
35:06nodding
35:06and
35:06shaking
35:07we
35:07then
35:08said
35:08right
35:09read
35:09put
35:09the
35:10DNA
35:12he
35:16immediately
35:17started
35:18to speak
35:19and he
35:20started
35:21trying to
35:21stop him
35:21speaking
35:23you know
35:24you don't
35:24ever
35:24know
35:25and he
35:25just
35:25said
35:25no
35:26I
35:26want
35:26to
35:26tell
35:27them
35:27and
35:27it
35:28was
35:28the
35:28key
35:29to
35:29and
35:29walk
35:29at
35:30the
35:30door
35:30and
35:31it
35:31was
35:31as
35:32though
35:32for
35:32you
35:33know
35:3325
35:3330
35:34years
35:34he'd
35:35had
35:35this
35:36pent
35:37up
35:37inside
35:37him
35:38and
35:38it
35:38all
35:39came
35:39out
35:39it
35:40just
35:40all
35:41came
35:41out
35:41exactly
35:42what
35:43he'd
35:43done
35:43it
35:45was
35:45one
35:45of
35:45those
35:46moments
35:46just
35:47watching
35:47him
35:47on
35:47the
35:47tape
35:48when
35:48he
35:48started
35:48for the
35:49very
35:49first
35:50time
35:50saying
35:51what
35:52he'd
35:52done
35:52and
35:53what
35:53had
35:53happened
35:53it
35:53was
35:53one
35:54of
35:54the
35:54most
35:54surreal
35:55experiences
35:56in the
35:56way
35:56because
35:56just
35:57thinking
35:58back
35:58about
35:58the
35:58whole
35:59journey
35:59to
36:00get
36:00to
36:00this
36:00point
36:01with
36:01this
36:01guy
36:01and
36:02thinking
36:02this
36:04is
36:04the
36:05person
36:05now
36:05that
36:06we're
36:07looking
36:07at
36:07caused
36:09and
36:10resulted
36:10in the
36:11carnage
36:12and
36:12catastrophe
36:13and
36:13everything
36:13that
36:14had
36:14happened
36:14and
36:15here
36:16he is
36:16now
36:16this
36:17almost
36:18pitiful
36:18character
36:19did he
36:20have any
36:21remorse
36:21or any
36:22I don't
36:24know
36:24I think
36:25he knew
36:25the game
36:26was up
36:26it was
36:27more of
36:27an acceptance
36:28he couldn't
36:31really
36:32explain
36:33why
36:34he
36:34had
36:35done
36:35it
36:35one of
36:36the
36:36interesting
36:37things
36:37was
36:37that
36:38he
36:38mentioned
36:38that
36:39he
36:39had
36:39run
36:40the
36:40police
36:40about
36:42six
36:43months
36:43after
36:43when
36:45it
36:45was
36:45all
36:45over
36:45the
36:46national
36:46news
36:46the
36:46handwriting
36:47the
36:47focus
36:48was
36:49on
36:49the
36:49north
36:49east
36:49now
36:50and
36:51he
36:52said
36:52I
36:52rang
36:53the
36:53police
36:53and
36:54told
36:55them
36:55it
36:55was
36:55a
36:56fake
36:56it
36:56was
36:56a
36:56fake
36:57and
36:58we
36:59knew
36:59that
37:00actually
37:00was
37:00right
37:01we
37:01asked
37:02him
37:02then
37:03to
37:03read
37:03out
37:04a
37:04transcript
37:04of
37:05the
37:06I'm
37:07Jack
37:07tape
37:08where
37:08he
37:09sent
37:09the
37:09tape
37:09in
37:10and
37:10the
37:10one
37:11that
37:11was
37:11played
37:12by
37:13George
37:13Oldfield
37:13to
37:14the
37:14public
37:15to
37:15ask
37:15if
37:15anyone
37:15had
37:16heard
37:16this
37:16voice
37:17and
37:18when
37:18he
37:18started
37:19reading
37:19the
37:19transcript
37:19out
37:20it
37:21was
37:21as
37:22though
37:22he'd
37:22been
37:22transported
37:23back
37:23in
37:23time
37:24to
37:24when
37:24he
37:25made
37:25that
37:25tape
37:25because
37:26he
37:26did
37:27read
37:27it
37:27out
37:27but
37:28he
37:28read
37:28it
37:28out
37:29in
37:29exactly
37:30the
37:30same
37:31tone
37:31the
37:32same
37:33expressiveness
37:34with
37:34it
37:34and
37:35the
37:38and
37:39it
37:39was
37:39literally
37:40a
37:40hair
37:40standing
37:40up
37:41moment
37:41on
37:41the
37:41back
37:41of
37:41my
37:42neck
37:42listening
37:42to
37:42this
37:42guy
37:43because
37:43I
37:43was
37:43part
37:43of
37:44the
37:44investigation
37:44team
37:44when
37:45George
37:45Oldfield
37:45played
37:46it
38:08interviewed
38:08or
38:09questioned
38:09anybody
38:10with
38:10this
38:10voice
38:11and
38:12there
38:13were
38:13200
38:13detectives
38:14in
38:14this
38:14room
38:15and
38:16when
38:17he
38:17switched
38:17click
38:18and
38:18played
38:18that
38:18voice
38:19and
38:20you
38:20could
38:20have
38:20the
38:21word
38:21pin drop
38:22doesn't
38:22even
38:23go
38:23anywhere
38:23near to
38:23the
38:24silence
38:24it
38:24was
38:24you
38:25could
38:25have
38:25grasped
38:26it
38:26was
38:26that
38:27quiet
38:28apart
38:29from
38:29this
38:29voice
38:30because
38:30everybody
38:31was
38:31streaming
38:32every
38:32muscle
38:32to
38:33listen
38:33to
38:33this
38:33and
38:33I
38:33was
38:33listening
38:34to
38:34it
38:34and
38:35he
38:35played
38:38it
38:38two
38:38or
38:38three
38:38times
38:39and
38:40I
38:40was
38:41transported
38:41back
38:41into
38:42that
38:42room
38:42listening
38:42to
38:43John
38:43Humble
38:43reading
38:44that
38:44transcript
38:44and
38:45thinking
38:45I
38:46can't
38:46believe
38:47because
38:47I
38:47could
38:47not
38:48get
38:48that
38:48voice
38:48out
38:48of
38:49my
38:49head
38:49at
38:49the
38:49time
38:49I
38:50was
38:50going
38:50home
38:50thinking
38:51about
38:51have I
38:51questioned
38:52somebody
38:52and
38:53everybody
38:54we were
38:54then
38:55questioning
38:55was it
38:56this
38:56one
38:57so
38:58it
38:58had
38:58a
38:58big
38:58impact
38:59and
39:00after
39:01we
39:02interviewed
39:03him
39:03and
39:03he
39:03was
39:03charged
39:04I
39:05had a
39:06conversation
39:06with Dick
39:07Holland
39:07who had
39:07been
39:08a key
39:08senior
39:09detective
39:10on the
39:11case
39:11with
39:12George
39:12Orfield
39:12and
39:13told him
39:14we'd
39:15got
39:15this
39:16guy
39:16charged
39:17and
39:17he
39:17was
39:17asking
39:17about
39:18who
39:18it
39:18was
39:18and
39:18what
39:18his
39:19background
39:19was
39:19and
39:19he
39:19was
39:19explaining
39:20all
39:20that
39:20this
39:22wasn't
39:22a
39:22master
39:22criminal
39:23kind
39:23of
39:23thing
39:23this
39:24was
39:24just
39:24a
39:24pitiful
39:26character
39:27from
39:27Sunderland
39:28there
39:28was
39:29a lot
39:29of
39:29things
39:30wrapped
39:30up
39:31as
39:31the
39:31Ripper
39:31hoax
39:32cases
39:32and
39:35some
39:35horrific
39:36people
39:37and
39:38crimes
39:38in
39:39my
39:39career
39:39but
39:40the
39:42John
39:42Humble
39:42case
39:43and
39:43that
39:43hoax
39:44case
39:44wrapping
39:46that
39:46up
39:46and
39:46solving
39:47that
39:47was
39:47really
39:50important
39:51and
39:52I guess
39:52it's
39:52almost
39:52full
39:53circle
39:53for you
39:54it was
39:54full
39:54circle
39:55from
39:56start
39:56to
39:56finish
39:57and
39:57it
39:57came
39:58at
39:59that
39:59point
39:59it
40:00was
40:00very
40:01much
40:01towards
40:02the
40:02end
40:02of
40:02my
40:02career
40:02but
40:03it
40:03was
40:03full
40:03circle
40:04but
40:05it
40:05was
40:05something
40:06that
40:06was
40:06critically
40:08important
40:09just
40:10for
40:10finding
40:12that
40:12missing
40:12piece
40:13of
40:13that
40:13jigsaw
40:13because
40:15of
40:15the
40:15impact
40:15and
40:16everything
40:17that
40:17had
40:17happened
40:18it
40:18was
40:20an
40:20important
40:20piece
40:20of
40:21work
40:21to
40:21do
40:22thank
40:22you
40:23so
40:23much
40:23Christopher
40:24Gregg
40:24you
40:29can
40:29find out
40:29more
40:30about
40:30Chris
40:30Gregg's
40:31incredible
40:32career
40:32where
40:33he
40:33worked
40:33on
40:34some
40:34of
40:34the
40:34region's
40:35most
40:35high
40:35profile
40:36investigations
40:37only
40:38on
40:38the
40:38yorkshirepost.co.uk
40:40you can
40:41watch more
40:42by heading to
40:43the Yorkshire
40:43Post
40:43daily
40:44motion
40:44and
40:45searching
40:45for
40:46the
40:46Mrs
40:46Yorkshire
40:46podcast
40:47we'll
40:48be back
40:48next
40:49week
40:49where
40:49we
40:49meet
40:50some
40:50of
40:50Yorkshire's
40:51most
40:51famous
40:51faces
40:52in
40:52their
40:53favourite
40:53places
40:54thanks
40:55so
40:55much
40:55for
40:56listening
40:56see
40:56you
40:57soon