Phil discusses all the key questions around Tommy Watson's move to Brighton from Sunderland
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00:00Good morning everyone and welcome to what I guess is a little bit of an emergency edition
00:18of On The Whistle because we have some fairly big Sunderland Transfer news to talk about
00:21in April which is quite an unusual situation but that's where we are so I'm sure you've
00:25all seen the news last night that Tommy Watson, Sunderland have agreed a deal to sell Tommy
00:30Watson to Brighton & Hove Albion that will go through on July 1st when the transfer window
00:34opens regardless of what happens between now and the end of the season, all the agreements
00:39all done and signed so I'm going to chat a little bit through some of my thoughts and
00:42feelings about the deal, give you hopefully a little bit of insight into what the deal
00:45actually is and then I'll go through some of the kind of key questions that have thrown
00:49up from this.
00:50I took a few questions from people over on Blue Sky around the deal, I'm not going to
00:54go through each one individually but what I have done is collated sort of the big talking
00:57points that people are asking about and I'll just give you some of my opinion on that and
01:01hopefully maybe a little bit of behind the scenes insight as well.
01:05So yeah so I think the first thing to do really is just talk a little bit about the deal itself
01:11so from my understanding the talks have pretty much continued since deadline day, I think
01:16everybody knows that the last two deadline days Brighton have made multiple deals, multiple
01:20attempts to try and sign Tommy Watson.
01:23I don't think it was ever particularly close last summer, last deadline day but certainly
01:26deadline day this year, well it was the January transfer window but I think deadline day was
01:31in February which was confusing for everybody and the deal was very, very, very, very close.
01:36Ultimately it didn't go through, mainly to be honest because Sunderland were concerned
01:40about a lack of a replacement but Brighton have been quite persistent since then in keeping
01:45the deal open, Tommy Watson has now gone into the last 18 months of his contract and I think
01:50Sunderland have probably known for a while that the chances of reaching an agreement
01:55on an extension are pretty minute, I think that's something that's only kind of grown
01:58since the end of the January transfer window and so I think Sunderland felt that the best
02:02thing to do was to negotiate now.
02:05Obviously depending on who you speak to you'll get slightly different views on what the deal
02:09is and what it looks like but I think what we can say with a large degree of certainty
02:12is that it's a package in the region of 10 million, I think if all the add-ons and performance
02:18related clauses were reached Sunderland would bank around 11 million pounds and from what
02:24I gather Sunderland think that they're fairly realistic clauses, they're not like if Tommy
02:29Watson wins the Ballon d'Or which he might do but feels like a little bit of a stretch,
02:33they're fairly realistic clauses that could be met so yeah we think potentially over a
02:37period of time a fee that could be worth around 11 million.
02:40I think crucially as well I understand there's a pretty significant sell-on clause involved
02:44in this as well in the region of 20% to Sunderland if Watson was to go on and realise his full
02:49potential and become that top, top tier player then obviously there would be a significant
02:53financial benefit to Sunderland from that as well so that's kind of the deal that's
03:00been done.
03:02In terms of my feelings about it, I think in a lot of ways it's a really disappointing
03:06day for Sunderland.
03:07We know that trading is just a reality of where they're at, it's something that you
03:12have to do especially, I mean even the clubs with parachute payments have to do it really,
03:15I think it's just the reality of being any team outside the top six or eight in the Premier
03:20League to be honest.
03:22I think the sadness with Watson comes in that we've only really seen glimpses of what he
03:26can actually do.
03:28I think that he's someone who in the under-21s when we watched him for a while was really
03:33banging the door down and producing unbelievable performances that showed you what an incredible
03:37talent he is.
03:39We only really got a glimpse of that before he suffered that injury towards the back end
03:43of last year.
03:44So I think there's a little bit of a sadness that one of Sunderland's best prospects really
03:47in recent years and I think anybody who spent time in the academy or watches a lot of academy
03:52football will tell you that Watson definitely is one of the best prospects we've seen for
03:55quite some time.
03:56He's leaving before he's really had a chance to make his mark and there's a bit of disappointment
04:00in that.
04:01Putting your cold business head on I guess, which is the other side of it and how I feel
04:05about this deal, is that let's be honest, it's a good deal.
04:09It's a significant injection of funds into the club for a player who, let's forget, has
04:14only made 16 senior appearances so far, a really, really talented player but nobody
04:20can say for sure what level he'll reach in the future.
04:22I think for a player who's coming towards the end of his contract to get that level
04:26of fee, I don't think you can argue that Sunderland have done a good job on that.
04:31It really makes feelings about it, obviously, because to lose a player who's come through
04:36the club, I think Watson joined Sunderland at the age of six, I think to lose him is
04:42a really sad day in some ways but at the same time it shows you the level of work that's
04:48getting done in the academy, that Premier League clubs want to come and sign players
04:53for this level of funds and it's also one that just strengthens Sunderland's financial
04:57position further so there is that sort of positive to it.
05:00I'm going to go through some of the questions, some of the things that a lot of people were
05:04asking about really, just in terms of this deal and see if I can give you a little bit
05:09of opinion, a little bit of insight.
05:10The first thing a lot of people are saying is why now?
05:12Obviously, it's really unusual for a deal to be announced on April 1st outside of a
05:18transfer window.
05:19I think there's a few different layers to this.
05:21The first one really is that although it's very unusual for transfer deals to get done
05:25in April outside the transfer window, it's not as unusual for Brighton.
05:29I think if you look at the way Brighton do business, they tend to be quite proactive.
05:32They do sometimes do deals outside transfer windows, it's not unusual for them.
05:38The reason they're able to do that is because their financial position is outstanding because
05:41of the players that they've sold and that allows them to be really proactive, to steal
05:45a march on other clubs, to always be looking for opportunities and basically to move whenever
05:49the opportunity is there.
05:50So I think that's a little bit why this has happened.
05:53It's not just about Sunderland, it's most definitely about Brighton and the way they
05:57do their business.
05:58To be honest, I think it's something for all clubs, including Sunderland, to aspire to.
06:01I think to get yourself in a position where you can be proactive like this.
06:05I think once the deal is done, you then basically have two options, which is you try and just
06:11sort of rumble along until the end of the season, keep it under wraps and announce it
06:14when the transfer window opens.
06:16My impression from speaking to various sources is that Sunderland's view was that it was
06:20likely to come out in some shape or form once the agreement was reached and that rather
06:25than letting the potential uncertainty and speculation cloud the end of the season, rather
06:30than having Regis Lebris asked about it in press conferences, rather than that question
06:34mark hanging over Tommy as he tries to make an impact, the best thing was to just say,
06:38look, this is what's happening.
06:40Obviously, we're sad to see Tommy go, but it's a good deal and it allows everyone to
06:45just know where they stand and we can now focus on the final seven and hopefully ten
06:49games of the season.
06:50So I think that's why the decision to sort of just go public with this was made.
06:55From a Sunderland perspective, in terms of why do it now, why not do it at the end of
06:59the season, I think there's a reality here, which is that, as I mentioned, Sunderland
07:05have known for a while, really, that Watson was minded not to sign a new contract.
07:12I think that we'll all have our opinions on that.
07:15I think from Watson's perspective, I think the one thing you would have to say is if
07:17you're going to move to a Premier League club at his age, Brighton would be the one,
07:21wouldn't it?
07:22Because they're the club, kind of similar to Sunderland in the Championship, they're
07:25the one club where you look at it and you go, yeah, they will give him a chance if he
07:30impresses in training.
07:31If they feel he's ready, he'll play.
07:33They've got absolutely no fears throwing an 18 or a 19-year-old into Premier League football.
07:37So I can see from his perspective why this move was appealing.
07:41It's slightly different to sometimes when you see young players make a move and you
07:45think, I can't really see the logic in that.
07:46I worry that they might be making that for the wrong reasons.
07:49I think there is a strong football argument for this move.
07:51But from Sunderland's perspective, they'd known for a while that Watson was minded not
07:54to extend.
07:55Actually, as a little bit of an aside, there was quite a lot of interest in Watson before
08:02he signed his first professional contract and potentially he could have gone for what
08:05would have been a pretty paltry compensation fee then.
08:08So I think there's also a little bit of realism here to bank in potentially in excess of £10
08:12million for a player who nearly left for what would have been a pittance really 18
08:16months ago is a pretty good outcome in some ways.
08:21But I think from Sunderland's perspective, knowing that Watson was unlikely to extend
08:26his contract, there was a huge risk in not taking this very, very good deal now.
08:30And that's partially why Brighton have put the deal on the table now and have kept those
08:33talks going because they understand that.
08:35And it's partially why Sunderland have decided to do the deal.
08:38What if Watson gets a serious injury in the last seven games of the season?
08:42Sorry about that, it was very dramatic.
08:46What if Watson gets a significant injury in the last seven games of the season?
08:50You're then potentially going into a summer window where these kind of bids wouldn't be
08:55on the table if you had an injury, for example.
08:58What if his form doesn't quite reach the level that we saw towards the end of last year?
09:02I think it's obvious that the more time went on, the closer Sunderland got to the end of
09:07Watson's current deal, the weaker negotiating position they were in.
09:10And I think that's why they've decided to do this deal now.
09:14Because there were some significant risks with allowing it to run in the summer and
09:16especially next January when you're then potentially losing a player for a pretty small sum.
09:22So yeah, it's always going to be a divisive one.
09:25I understand everyone's opinions on it.
09:27But I think hopefully I've given you a little bit of insight into both clubs really, the
09:30thinking in terms of why they were having to do this now.
09:33One of the questions that people were asking a lot was, I think, understanding why Sunderland
09:39have done this, but why not do it in January?
09:42Basically, Sunderland were fairly open to doing this in January in terms of they understood
09:47that Watson was quite keen on the move, or was certainly very open to the move.
09:50I don't think they have a problem with that.
09:52They understand young players who want to move to the Premier League, obviously it's
09:55a disappointment for the club.
09:56But put very simply, Regis Srebrenic wanted two left wingers, felt he needed two left
10:01wingers.
10:02And Mundell was still injured, so he didn't have any left wingers.
10:05And so the view was that Watson could only go if a replacement arrived.
10:10And actually one of the reasons why it ran so close to the wire on deadline day was because
10:13Sunderland were in talks to sign Simon Odinga from Brighton, who would have been pretty
10:17much a direct replacement.
10:19Now for one or two reasons, that in the end didn't go through.
10:22And that really sort of hardened Sunderland's stance that they couldn't really afford to
10:24let Watson go, that it would be too big a risk with Mundell also out injured at the
10:28time.
10:29So that's why they didn't do it in January.
10:32A couple of additional things people mentioned was one, why not let him go in January and
10:36loan Jack Clarke back?
10:37I think the reality is that if that had been a deal on the table, Sunderland would have
10:40done it.
10:42From my understanding, there wasn't a question of Ipswich letting Clarke go in January.
10:46Sunderland also, from my understanding, had an interest in Nathan Broadhead and bringing
10:50him back to the club in January.
10:51But ultimately, he was kind of in the team at the time and Ipswich didn't want to let
10:55him go.
10:56So on the Clarke thing, I think that's definitely something they would have been open to, but
10:59it wasn't really an option.
11:02Some people also saying that you could have let Watson go in January and keep a deal Ipswich,
11:05which is definitely one that I can totally understand because we saw Ipswich have a bit
11:09of an impact around the Christmas period.
11:11I think the reality is Lebris wanted two out and out wingers.
11:14Ipswich did a really, really good job.
11:16There's no denying that.
11:17But Sunderland's system is set up to play, to feed wingers early.
11:23Wingers who can go past players very, very good in 1v1 duels.
11:26That's so much what the game plan is built around.
11:29And I think Lebris, I don't think he particularly wanted to go into the rest of the season if
11:34Mundell hadn't recovered, as everyone hoped, potentially with out and out and out left
11:38winger.
11:39So that was why they were, I think, happy to move Auschwitz on.
11:42I think there was also a bit of a realism that they couldn't really send Auschwitz away.
11:45They had to let him go somewhere where he could play more regular football in his best
11:49position.
11:50So hopefully that answers kind of that side of things.
11:54And one of the other things that a lot of people were asking about was, should we be
11:59fearful of the summer transfer window?
12:00Is this a sign of things to come?
12:02Or some of you were saying, does this really strengthen Sunderland's hand?
12:06Well, I think there's two aspects to this.
12:08One, it definitely makes me a little bit fearful for the summer because I think it just goes
12:12to show how hard it is to stop players going to the Premier League.
12:18And especially because some of the sums involved.
12:20And so it does make me a little bit fearful if Sunderland don't win promotion because
12:23I think you can see that there are clubs lining up to sign Sunderland's talent.
12:26And I think in some cases it'll be really, really hard to stand in their way.
12:29So it's definitely something that makes me a little bit nervous.
12:32I think the other side of this is that what this deal also does is it sets a little bit
12:37of a marker down in terms of the only real players at Sunderland who are in a similarly
12:43vulnerable contract situation to Tommy Watson are with Daniel and Dana Serkin, who will
12:48both have 12 months left on the deal in the summer.
12:50Sunderland are definitely quite vulnerable in those situations in the same way they are
12:54with Watson.
12:55But with other players who Premier League clubs might want to sign, they have significantly
12:59longer to run on the contracts.
13:01They have significantly more experience than senior football under their belt.
13:04And so I think for Sunderland to bank around 10 million from this deal sets a real marker
13:08down that if those players do go in the summer, that if they do want to take an opportunity
13:12to go and play in the Premier League or a top division elsewhere in Europe, I think
13:15Sunderland can really put their foot down and say, you know, there is no need for us
13:20to sell on the cheap.
13:21We're in a strong financial position.
13:23The last accounts were kind of mixed reading, but showed that Sunderland are on a better
13:27financial footing than most of their championship rivals.
13:29Since then they've sold Jack Clarke for 15 million, Tommy Watson for around 10 million.
13:34That tells you that they're attacking this window from a real position of strength.
13:38And so I think that means that if they do sell players, they can really command the
13:42top dollar for them.
13:44So while I'm definitely nervous about it, I do think that we'll be in a very different
13:47position to most transfer windows if that does happen, because the scope for reinvestment
13:53at Sunderland will be huge.
13:54And obviously, it will then be down to the recruitment team to get the right players.
13:58The last thing some of you were talking about was whether really Tommy Watson can or should
14:02play a part for the rest of the season.
14:04For me, it's just out of training.
14:06I've got no issue whatsoever with Watson sort of being part of it in terms of
14:14it's modern football.
14:15I don't think there's anything unusual in what's happened.
14:17The fantastic opportunities being presented to him.
14:19If it was me, I would stay and play at Sunderland forever because it's my club.
14:24But that's easy for me to say sitting here.
14:27It's easy for us all to say.
14:29I think the reality is he's been presented with a quite incredible opportunity to go
14:33and play for a club that's competing at the top end of the Premier League.
14:37Potential for European football in the next couple of years that shows that it trusts
14:41young players.
14:42I can totally understand why he's made the decision.
14:45And ultimately, it will be up to Le Brice, I think.
14:48If Watson is shown that he's motivated and training, if he's performing well in training,
14:53if he's hungry for it, then Sunderland need him.
14:56And he can absolutely have a massive role to play between now and the end of the season.
14:59I think it's on Tommy now to show that he can kind of be that difference maker in games.
15:05Could he be the guy who gets you through a playoff off the bench?
15:07Who could score a winner at Wembley off the bench?
15:09I think that's the sort of gauntlet that needs to be laid down for him.
15:12I've got absolutely no issues with Tommy being a big part of Sunderland's squad between now
15:16and the end of the season.
15:17Ultimately, it's just down to how he trains.
15:19It'll be up to Le Brice to make that decision on what kind of position he's in and how he
15:26progresses from there.
15:27So, yeah, I've been talking for 15 minutes.
15:30I always talk much longer than I plan to.
15:32But hopefully, it's given you a little bit of insight into how this developed.
15:36There is a sort of sadness, I think, about losing an academy player, especially one who
15:40hasn't really had a chance to fully show what he's all about at the club, mainly through
15:45injury, really, to be fair.
15:47But at the same time, I think, from a Sunderland perspective, it was a deal that ultimately
15:52probably was a little bit too good to turn down, is my kind of take on it.
15:56So, yeah, hopefully, this has given you a little bit of insight, a little bit of behind
16:00the scenes insight into how the deal's come back as well.
16:03So, yeah, I will be doing kind of a written version reflecting on this, which will be
16:07on the website, hopefully, around lunchtime, maybe tea time.
16:09So keep your eyes out for that as well.
16:10I'll go into a bit more depth on some of this stuff.
16:13And there'll be stacks more content in the days to come.
16:15Thanks for watching.