Phil Smith is back to discuss Sunderland's 2-2 draw with Watford and to answer questions from readers
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00:00Good morning everyone and welcome to the latest edition of On The Whistle. I hope that I don't
00:14look and sound as bad as I feel. I've been hit with what I think is about my fifth bug
00:18of the new year already, so please bear with me this morning if I'm not quieting myself.
00:22We're going to have a chat about Sunderland 2, Watford 2 and another disappointing afternoon
00:27at home for Sunderland. Unfortunately, there have been too many of those recently. I think
00:31especially a kind of double whammy really with Sheffield United, the only other team
00:34in the top four playing yesterday, getting past Portsmouth at home, even though by all
00:39accounts and certainly looking at the coach, their manager Chris Wilder, falling well short
00:42of their best. So, a really costly day for Sunderland. I think in analysing the game,
00:48I think probably the first place I would start in fairness would be to say that for a team
00:53who have had a lot of problems in recent weeks, I thought Watford played well. I thought
00:57they had a good game plan. There's been a lot of noise around that club in recent weeks,
01:01speculation over the future of their head coach Tom Cleverley, a lot of injury issues
01:05at the moment. They're only senior striker, then hit with the suspension after getting
01:09sent off against Norwich last week. I don't think they looked like a team that was kind
01:13of, inverted commas, in crisis. I thought they played well. I thought they had a good
01:17blend between they knew when to take the sting out of the game by slowing it down. They were
01:23quite happy at times to pop it around the sort of defence, just to play into midfield,
01:27keep it simple. Whenever there was any element of pressure, they were quite happy to go long
01:31and they had the players to do that. I thought it was quite, albeit that for large parts
01:36of the game, didn't create a huge mountain. Their manager Tom Cleverley kind of admitted
01:39that afterwards. He said he was really pleased with the character his players showed, especially
01:43after going behind to control the game and I think that was a fair assessment. I thought,
01:48credit where it's due, for an 18-year-old on his first championship start, I thought
01:52their striker Mamadou Doumbi was excellent. Real handful. I thought he gave Luke O'Neill
01:56and Chris Mepham a really, really tough afternoon. He got his team up the pitch. He was a threat
02:02and they've got some good players. I think that's the other thing as well. I was, as
02:05I always am, when I see him play, I was impressed by Georgie Chakvetadze on the left-hand side.
02:10I thought you could see his dribbling power was really impressive. He got them up the
02:12pitch at times, some of them didn't find it easy to get the ball off them. So I think
02:16my analysis of the game really wanted to start with a bit of praise for Watford because I
02:19think you've got to remember sometimes that there are two teams on the pitch and ultimately,
02:24Watford had some good individuals. Let's have that right. It's not so long ago that they
02:28were a parachute payment team. You can still see those flashes of quality in their team.
02:33For sure though, from a Sunderland perspective, it was a really disappointing performance.
02:37It's not necessarily unusual for them to have less of the ball. We've seen it at times they've
02:41been really, really effective actually when they've let the opposition have more of the
02:44ball and they've kind of played on the break. Plays like Mundell, Roberts, Isidor and caused
02:49all sorts of problems. Yes, they didn't feel deliberate to me. I don't know what you guys
02:52watching at home and in the stadium felt. It just felt to me like someone couldn't get
02:56control of the game. The press, I think they seemed to find it difficult to apply pressure
03:01on the ball and I thought they were sloppy in possession. I don't know whether that's
03:04a... Is that a little bit of fatigue in certain areas of the pitch? I think it possibly is.
03:09I think there's definitely some areas of the pitch where Sunderland don't look as fresh
03:12and as aggressive as they did earlier in the season. Is that a bit of an underestimate
03:18in the opposition? I'm not sure. Is it a little bit of pressure because of the situation
03:22now in the table where obviously Sunderland are kind of becoming the team that teams want
03:27to get at really because they're doing so well? I'm not exactly sure what the reason
03:29is but I thought it was a really disappointing performance.
03:33The second half was an interesting one in that I certainly felt at times that Sunderland
03:37were trying to force it too much. For me, I felt the game was crying out for players
03:42to get their foot on it a little bit, slow things down, get up the pitch, build some
03:45pressure. I felt like it was a little bit open and that Sunderland were failing to
03:48apply any pressure. To be fair, when I spoke to Lebris about this in the press conference
03:52after the game, he felt that he saw it slightly differently. He felt that Sunderland needed
03:57to take risks. They needed to almost make the game unstable, as he would say. I think
04:02he was quite happy that when Haddon Wolff had been previously having a lot of the ball
04:06and felt quite comfortable, the game had become quite open and he felt Sunderland got themselves
04:11back into it that way. So, I can sort of understand where he's coming from.
04:16I thought that maybe the key moment in the game, to be honest, was Watford added another
04:21defender for the last 10 minutes. I thought that really upset their balance. I think it
04:25actually played into Sunderland's hands and that was interesting. Tom Clyde, after the
04:28game, made clear that it wasn't really a tactical decision. Moussa Sissoko, who I thought, to
04:35be honest, you could still see he's got a bit of class about him, a lot of strength.
04:38I thought he made things difficult for Sunderland, really. He'd cramped up and had to go off
04:42and that was why Cleverley then brought on a defender. I thought the switch to a back
04:46three, it forced them deeper and I think that actually allowed Sunderland to keep the ball
04:51and build up close at Watford's goal, with the defenders driving forward. I thought that
04:56really played into Sunderland's hands. Of course, they should have won it and this is
04:59the kind of interesting thing about the game. I don't think any of us would have walked
05:03away saying Sunderland would have really deserved the three points. They had two guilt-edge
05:06chances really late on to win it, which they couldn't take. Unfortunately, that's been
05:11a little bit of a theme and the one thing that Lebris always comes back to with this
05:14team, which he absolutely loves to bits and rightly so, because they always play at the
05:17final whistle. They've had a brilliant season so far, but he always says that you can see
05:21that they're not quite clinical enough. Burnley away is an obvious example. Millwall away,
05:25missed big chances before conceding the late goal. Blackburn away, had the game really
05:30by the scruff of the neck before they didn't take their chances, conceding the late goal.
05:34Yesterday was another example of just missing that clinical edge at the crucial moment.
05:37Unfortunately, at the moment, that looks like it's going to be the difference. Of course,
05:41still a lot to play for. So, just a really disappointing afternoon. I just don't think
05:44Sunderland look quite themselves at home. I thought there were a lot of similarities
05:48to the Plymouth game, albeit especially in the first half. I thought Watford showed a
05:52lot more quality than Plymouth. I think we have to give them that kind of respect and
05:55that credit where it's due. So, really disappointing. Let's go into your questions
06:00now because there's been plenty and a lot of them, as is often the case around a similar
06:03topic. So, I'll kind of deal with that one as one when we come to it. But I'm just going
06:07to have a little sip of my coffee to get me through at the end of this video, if that's
06:11okay. Apologies, I know the slurping's not very pleasant.
06:16So, Jera Anderson says, did four just become three? Now, I assume what you mean by this
06:20is our Sunderland out of the top two race. If I've completely misunderstood your question,
06:24please forgive me. I think it's a little early for that in terms of I still think there's a
06:29lot of twists and turns. I did some analysis, I think it was about a fortnight ago,
06:33which if you scroll down my Blue Sky, you'll be able to find in terms of just the way that
06:36the teams are performing, their form, some of the data beneath their performances. I still
06:41think there's a reason to think that there'll be a lot of twists and turns because although
06:44I think Leeds, for me, Jera, are going to win the league, I think their form is exceptional
06:49and their performances are every bit as good. They're not getting lucky, they're exactly where
06:53they should be. I actually think they'll get stronger and pick up more points between now
06:56and the end of the season. I still think that with Burnley, I think everybody knows they
07:00struggle to score goals. That means that if that brilliant defensive record that they've got
07:06comes undone even a little bit, then they will start to drop points. Now, the question is,
07:11at the moment, it doesn't look like that's happened. It's going to happen because James
07:13Trafford and Goals are playing so well. Esteve and Egan Reilly, as we've talked about after that
07:17game at Turf Moor, are excellent. But you never know what could happen with an injury, with a
07:21suspension. You just don't know what's going to happen to Burnley. Similarly, I think where
07:26you've got to give Sheffield United credit is like yesterday, that they grind out a lot of
07:29results at the moment. Clearly, I don't think there's any doubt that they had a really strong
07:33January window and brought in some really good, proven championship quality. You do think that
07:38could be the distance. To be honest, I make some fairly big outsiders now. I think it's a big gap.
07:43I think there's a level of consistency about the other three teams that have done really well,
07:47let's be fair. Let's not be overly critical because they've done really well to be in the
07:51race for this long. I think there's still twists and turns to come, so I wouldn't be ruling
07:55something out of it yet. What I would say is that I think there's a couple of really important games
07:59coming up because you don't want to be going into the last 10 games of the season with a gap any
08:03bigger than it is now. I think it's already quite tricky to overhaul the points gap. You don't want
08:07it to be getting any bigger. I think Wednesday night's a massive game in the context of the top
08:11two race, as very clearly as Leeds away. If someone can win on Wednesday night and get something out
08:16of Leeds, which is quite clearly their toughest game after the season, then you never know. I
08:20suspect that points gap might be a little bit smaller and maybe we'll be feeling a little bit
08:24more upbeat. So let's see how it goes. I think yesterday and Plymouth, I think are two really
08:29kind of bad days, if you like, in someone's race for the top two. I think they're points that could
08:33be really, really costly. I think if where you look at the hour on the table, to get
08:37one point from four games against Plymouth, two points, sorry, from four games against Plymouth
08:43and Watford feels like it could be quite crucial, but I think it's a little early to be writing it
08:48off just yet, but an important couple of weeks ahead. David said, was there any explanation
08:53given for the Meppin Ballard substitution? Didn't look like an injury based on how he sprinted off.
08:58Yeah, always an unusual sub obviously when chasing the game, a defender for a defender.
09:01And Lebris was asked about this in his press conference. He did give us what I thought was,
09:05to be fair, a perfectly sensible explanation. First and foremost, just wanted a bit more energy
09:10in the back line. I think to be fair, if you look at that point, he put pretty much all his
09:14attacking players on the bench, on the pitch already. There was only really Treyong and Siyi
09:18that he could bring on. Other than sort of the two central defenders, pretty much everyone,
09:21every player on the pitch was playing up front anyway. So, I think it would have been difficult
09:25to get another attacking player on without just completely losing the shaping structure. So,
09:29he just felt that Ballard could bring a bit of impetus. Obviously, the centre-backs were seeing
09:32a lot of the ball at that point, a bit of energy driving forward. But the main reason, to be honest,
09:36David, that Lebris said was that we were having a lot of set pieces. We knew we were going to get
09:40a lot more set pieces and it just made sense to try and get Ballard in there because obviously
09:43he's Sunderland's best player in terms of winning the best contact. So, the first contact, sorry.
09:48So, although that was a little bit of an unusual sub, I kind of understand that. I think, to be
09:52fair, in terms of the substitutions, I thought Lebris was quite proactive yesterday. I know it
09:56will come to the light up in a little bit, but he did move pretty quickly to try and change the
10:01shape of the game and it nearly kind of paid off. Shame, I thought that Oleksiych missed that
10:07chance later on because I thought he offered something a little bit different when you
10:09consider he's definitely playing out of position. We know he's not a left winger. He's an eight or
10:13a ten, really. But I actually think he brought a little bit of energy. I really do think Oleksiych
10:17just got something and it'll be tough for him to get the team on Wunderland Watson at back,
10:20for sure. But I wonder if in the interim he's got a little bit of a part to play
10:24in this race for promotion because I know, again, clearly that was a big moment in the game where
10:28he missed that chance. But I actually think we saw some really positive signs from him again
10:32coming off the bench. So, it'll be interesting to see how that goes. Okay, so let's get to the
10:40selection, which I think is the one that most of you are asking about. Neil says,
10:44it seemed a very negative set up with Sam Ed in the team. Was Joe being out not the perfect
10:48opportunity to bring Le Fay into central positions and play Meander on the left?
10:53Chris says, no, sorry, Chris, that's not what you were asking. I'll get to that one in a little bit.
10:59Stu says, should we be worried that Labreece isn't learning from his mistakes? The setup was
11:03very similar to Plymouth at home. It didn't work then and it didn't work today. No halftime subs
11:07to rectify it. It was probably even more frustrating than seeing the starting lineup.
11:11Making those attacking subs probably earned us the point in the end. So, why is he reluctant to
11:15start more attacking? And then another one from Tom who says, we played into their hands. We
11:19didn't really need a defensive midfielder again today. Wilson looks isolated, completely different
11:24from when Meander came on. Tom also says, how was that not a penalty second half on Wilson?
11:30Yeah, I agree with that. I think Michael also pointed out that was an important moment in the
11:33game and I agree. Obviously, really tough to tell at the time, wasn't true whether it was a penalty
11:37or not. I think when you watch it back, I think it's pretty clear that the defender has got both
11:40his arms around the easter door. He's making absolutely no attempt to play the ball. He
11:44actively prevents him having as good a shot on goal as he would have otherwise. For me,
11:47that's a penalty. I thought that was a mistake. Reluctant really to talk too much about the
11:52referees because I think as we've discussed, I think some of them weren't at their best level
11:55yesterday and that's why they didn't win. But that was definitely an important moment in the game.
12:00In terms of the set of that, I'll just start with Neil's point about playing Meander on the left.
12:03For me, I think I agree with that maybe there was an opportunity to get Meander on the team
12:08there. I think he's been so good and had a positive impact basically every time he's played
12:11of late. The one thing I would say is the Meander that we've been really, really excited about in
12:15recent weeks playing through the middle and alongside easter door is very, very different
12:19to the Meander we saw playing off the left. I don't mind him playing off the right because I
12:23feel like that suits his natural game by and large because he can kind of cut in, drive a goal, get a
12:27shot off on his stronger left foot. I think he really, really struggled in the appearances he
12:31made off the left flank and I can see why, especially given how well Lefebvre played
12:35the other night, I can see why Lebris was reluctant to make that change.
12:40So for me, looking at it from the outside, the option was not to play Meander on the left,
12:44it was to go with 4-4-2. Clearly, by the way, just as an aside, I thought it was a bad game
12:49for Joop to miss yesterday. I thought that was unfortunate. I think it was a game where
12:51something could really have done with his tenacity and his athleticism and his quality,
12:56of course, in midfield. So for me, it was a case of going 4-4-2 or playing with the team he did
13:03yesterday. So I think it's a tricky one. I think Lebris has been really consistent in saying that
13:094-3-3 is his preferred formation. It's the reason why Sunderland overachieved. It's the reason why
13:13they've kind of confounded our pre-season expectations, that structure, the triangles,
13:18the familiarity he's built. And I've been quite sympathetic to that up to a point. I also think
13:23that for all, 4-4-2 has worked really well in patches. I thought there were times in the
13:27Portsmouth and especially the Plymouth game when Sunderland played with 4-4-2 where it was a little
13:31bit of a mess, to be honest. And I thought they gave up so much control of the game.
13:35So I didn't necessarily mind, certainly not in the Plymouth game. Although I thought it was
13:39the wrong game for Sam Edd to come in, I could understand the logic. I can understand the logic
13:42again yesterday. But I definitely think it's one that Lebris needs to think about going into
13:46Wednesday, just because I think, as I said before, while I understand that 4-3-3 is what's really
13:51worked for Sunderland this season with the personalities he's had available, I think at
13:55the moment there's quite a few players who aren't at the level they were at earlier in the season.
13:59And that makes me wonder whether it's worth trying to get Meander, who's full of confidence,
14:03fresh, fit. Is it worth trying to get him in the team and sort of accept the risks that you take
14:07from losing that midfielder? My personal opinion, obviously I'm not a sports scientist, but I think
14:12Rigg to me looks like someone who could maybe benefit from a rest. I think as well Patrick
14:16Roberts, we know that he very rarely sensibly plays three games a week because obviously he's
14:21had hamstring issues in the past. So I think there's maybe a natural opportunity for Lebris
14:26to try something a bit different on Wednesday night against Luton. And I do wonder if at the
14:30moment it's worth trying to get Meander in the team, even if that means you lose a bit of control
14:35from midfield and try and avoid... I think the thing is yesterday that having three midfielders
14:40didn't necessarily give Sunderland more control of the game anyway. I think that's the interesting
14:44thing. A lot of these problems will be solved by Mundell and Mott in the back, let's be fair about
14:47that, because Lefevre then comes into the midfield and I just think it's a totally different picture.
14:52But at the moment, I think it is a little bit of a tricky one, as we've seen.
14:55So I don't think ultimately it didn't work yesterday, even if I can understand the logic of
15:00it. I do wonder whether Lebris will be considering a way to get Meander into the team. So Chris,
15:06this was the question that I mentioned just before, says given how many times we've seen
15:10the same version of this performance against lower table teams at home, do we need to do
15:13something different? Yeah, I think it's an interesting point because to be fair, Sunderland's
15:17home record, especially against the sort of inverted commas, poorer teams at the start of
15:20the season, was very, very good. It's quite a recent development that they've really struggled.
15:25I do think that they struggle a little bit, in my opinion, against the more direct teams.
15:29I think we've seen that in recent weeks. Plymouth were super direct at times. Watford weren't all
15:34direct yesterday. I don't want to be disrespectful. At times, as I said, they kept the ball away from
15:39Sunderland really cleverly. That wasn't a terrible pun about the manager, by the way, that was an
15:44accident. And I just think that maybe we saw it at Derby, where ultimately Sunderland won the game,
15:49but actually had a really difficult second half. I think they do struggle a bit against the more
15:52direct teams. The squad isn't built to play that way. The reason why they're doing so well is
15:57because they have such a high level of technical player that definitely, I think you could see
16:00lost out in the physical battle yesterday. And I think the other thing is that when teams play
16:05really direct, it's quite hard for Sunderland to get their press going because very obviously,
16:08whenever they get the opposition in a little bit of trouble, they just play over the press.
16:12Then it's about kind of 1v1, second balls, and that's not really Sunderland's game.
16:17So I definitely think there is a little bit of an issue, Chris. I agree with you.
16:21I do think that's part of the reason why Lebris has been reluctant to go 4-4-2,
16:24just following on from our previous question, because I think he feels that when teams go
16:28direct against them, Sunderland can be opened up really, really easily. So I think it's a
16:32tricky one, Chris. I definitely think it's something that Sunderland need to look at.
16:35The last few weeks have felt a little bit like some of the games in League One, where the
16:40opposition were super direct and slowed the game down and really, really made it difficult for
16:45Sunderland. So I think maybe this is a consequence of Sunderland doing so well, is that teams now
16:50changing their approach. If you think back to Sheffield Wednesday at the start of the season,
16:54I know Sheffield Wednesday have playoff aspirations, they're a good side.
16:57But if you think about how many times Sunderland caught them playing out from the back,
17:00really just kind of blew them away with the aggression of their press. I think it's quite
17:04obvious now that teams aren't willing to let Sunderland do that to them at the stadium.
17:08I think they know that when Sunderland's pressing game gets going, the crowd gets behind them,
17:12it just becomes really difficult. So I think we're seeing teams be really pragmatic when they
17:15come to the stadium right now, and it's up to Sunderland to respond. And as you mentioned there,
17:19Chris, I think it's going to be really interesting to see how Sunderland manage that.
17:26Fergus says, my main question is, why can we only think Rear's out game for the big teams?
17:30Boards well for leads, but not for the rest of our running. I think basically what I was
17:34saying there, I think it's a similar thing. I think it's a little bit of a tactical thing.
17:37I think Sunderland really enjoy playing against teams who play out from the back.
17:41You know, I think they enjoy those sort of really technical games, not as many long balls,
17:45not as many set pieces. I think it's a little bit because of the way the squad's designed,
17:50something they've done well at times this season, but they've definitely
17:55struggled a bit more of late. So that's definitely something we need to look at.
17:59Kit says, wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of Pavela, made some great dribbles and passes.
18:03Yeah, I don't think he's at his best yet. I think a little bit like Solis, I think he'll
18:06be a few weeks before we see what he can really offer. But I agree with you,
18:09he brought a little bit of energy. I think, again, I mentioned about Wednesday night,
18:12I think it's really interesting. I don't know for sure that Sunderland will rest Roberts,
18:15but it's what they've done most of the time this season when there's been a midweek game.
18:18So could there be an opportunity for Pavela to come into the oven there? It's a little bit early
18:22time, we'll tell. The obvious other option is to bring Miander in off the right to begin with and
18:26see how the game goes. So yeah, massive night on Wednesday. It's going to be really interesting
18:30given the last couple of home games, how Labrie goes away and thinks about it. Does he double
18:35down on what worked at the start of the season? Or does he go with something a little bit
18:38interesting? It's going to be a really, really interesting night at the stadium.
18:43Thanks so much for watching. Again, sorry if I don't look or sound great. We'll be back.
18:49Loads more analysis of the game over on the ECHO website and also leading into the looting game,
18:53obviously with the British's pre-match press conference. We'll have all the injury updates
18:56and what have you from that. And then I'll be back Wednesday night with James. You'll have your
19:00usual verdict from the press box on the final whistle blows on YouTube and then the next day
19:05I'll be back with on the whistle as well. So feel free to get your questions in after the looting
19:09game. Thanks so much for watching.