At today's House Judiciary Committee hearing, Rep. Jim Jordan (R-OH) questioned witnesses about criticism of the judiciary.
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NewsTranscript
00:00The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gooden.
00:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:11Ms. Shaw, earlier you said that you worried that some of the intent of these actions will
00:17have a chilling effect to disincentivize the taking on of clients, and that the legal system
00:24we have requires lawyers to take on unpopular clients.
00:27Could you expand on that, please?
00:34The idea that even individuals charged with crimes are entitled to counsel and to vigorous
00:40representation in their defense, regardless of what they may have done, is actually a
00:45core belief pillar of our legal system, and so that's one example.
00:50Individuals even charged with serious crimes have a right to counsel.
00:54I guess one of the things that I struggle with is after the 2020 election, one of the
01:01groups that comes to mind is the 65 Project, which is a legal activism campaign seeking
01:06to disbar and discredit Trump-affiliated lawyers who worked on lawsuits supporting Trump's
01:11attempts to question the 2020 election.
01:14They're a dark money group, and I don't recall my colleagues or you speaking out against
01:21this.
01:22In fact, there were attorneys that were disbarred for representing their client.
01:28Sure, there's folks in this room that didn't agree with them, but one of the things you
01:33said during that time was, quote, there need to be serious social, professional, and reputational
01:38kinds of sanctions if we want to disincentivize this kind of conduct.
01:42I think this kind of conduct is perhaps taking on a client that supports a belief that maybe
01:48it's not popular, and I really hope that we'll get away from this lawfare, and that's
01:53something that was prevalent over the last four years throughout this campaign, and now
01:59we're seeing it from this judiciary, and I'm disappointed in this judge, but I am happy
02:06we're having this discussion, and I'll yield the balance of my time to Chairman Jordan.
02:09Oh, I thank the gentleman for yielding.
02:13Some of the previous speakers on the other side have said, members on the other side
02:16have said attacks by President Trump, I think I got this right, attacks by President Trump
02:19on the judiciary are dangerous.
02:20They said criticism of judges weakens the judiciary.
02:25Mr. Larkin, have Democrats ever criticized the judiciary?
02:28Yes, sir.
02:29Can you give me an example that maybe comes to mind?
02:32I mean, I have several, but I want to know what's one that comes to mind for you.
02:35Well, I guess the best example in recently was the Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs
02:40to overturn Roe versus Wade.
02:42Yeah, where like hundreds of churches and pro-life centers were attacked and firebombed
02:47and got all kinds of criticism coming from people that have.
02:51How about this one?
02:52How about the minority leader in the Senate said, I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want
02:56to tell you, Kavanaugh, you've released the whirlwind and you will pay the price.
03:01How about that one?
03:02You remember that one, Speaker Gingrich from Senator Schumer?
03:05Well, I think it's fair to say that the passion of the left, when the court does the wrong
03:12thing, probably is more professionally organized than any passion on the right.
03:18And look, I mean, Franklin Roosevelt tried to pack the court.
03:22He was a Democrat.
03:25There's a long tradition in America that we're allowed to argue over the courts or not.
03:29They're not temples.
03:30This is not a religious judicial system.
03:33It's a secular judicial system.
03:35Yeah, fair enough.
03:36And look, we're going to criticize this is all along.
03:38I just we're giving it one way.
03:40This goes both ways.
03:42Both sides have criticized the courts, criticized decisions.
03:45We're allowed to do that in this country.
03:46That's the way that's the way it works.
03:48Professor Shaw, do you do you think it was appropriate for what what Mr. Schumer, Senator
03:52Schumer said on the steps of the Supreme Court when he said you will pay the price, referencing
03:58two members, sitting members of the United States Supreme Court?
04:01I think he should have phrased it differently.
04:03I'm sure he feels the same way.
04:05What about the Dobbs leak?
04:06What do you think about that and some of the comments that were made after that decision
04:10was leaked?
04:11Do you think that was good?
04:12You know, I'm not sure what comments you're talking about, the that there were very, very
04:18sharp criticism of Justice Alito's opinion in Dobbs.
04:21I think that's perfectly healthy, yes.
04:24I think we had a member said that there should be impeachment for the decisions that were
04:30that happened after the Dobbs decision.
04:32There should be impeachment of one of the Supreme Court justices, a member of Congress
04:36said that.
04:37Do you think that's appropriate?
04:39You know, impeachment rhetoric is something that we have seen from time to time.
04:42I guess I'm not categorically opposed to talking about it.
04:45I think introducing resolutions, as we've seen, has been a significant escalation.
04:50And of course, it would depend on why.
04:51I mean, I think there there have there was serious discussion of impeachment of several
04:54sitting Supreme Court justices over ethics matters in the last few years.
04:58I don't think there's anything unhealthy about those discussions.
05:02It's OK to talk about impeaching Supreme Court justice.
05:04It's OK to add four associate justices to the Supreme Court and you had no problems
05:07with the comments made after the Dobbs leak.
05:09Is that your testimony?
05:11You know, I'm sorry, I'm not sure what specific comments you're talking about, but criticism
05:15of the substance of the Dobbs ruling.
05:17I have no problem with that.
05:19OK.
05:20I yield back.
05:21The witnesses have been very kind, and there are more people that want that kindness.
05:27So with that, we'll take a five minute recess.