O'Nien and Mundle penalty drama as Sunderland return to winning ways vs Millwall
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00:00Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Raw podcast. I'm Phil Smith, joined by
00:23my esteemed colleagues Jason Jones and James Copley. We're going to have a chat through
00:28Sunderland's win over Millwall and everything else besides. So I think we're going to spend
00:33a lot of time today probably talking about penalties and our existential dread at the
00:38thought of potentially a penalty shootout deciding Sunderland's season, because at the
00:41moment that does not feel like it's going to go too well for the Blackhawks. But before
00:46we get to that bit, I just want to get your guys' thoughts on the performance as a whole.
00:50Because although it feels like quite a long time ago, obviously Sunderland had come onto
00:54this game off the back of that Coventry City debacle. And I'm interested in what you two
00:58think of how, generally speaking, aside from spot-kick drama, you felt Sunderland responded
01:03to that, James. So I'll start with you. How did you feel Sunderland sort of came back
01:08from that pretty shambolic performance at Coventry?
01:11Well, at the moment I feel really weird because Phil Smith's asking me questions, which is
01:16really strange and a definite departure from the norm. But welcome back, Phil, and congratulations
01:21as well. Yeah, I thought it was a needed improved performance, wasn't it, against
01:27Millwall for Sunderland. I thought they did what they set out to do quite well. Millwall
01:32didn't really offer much. I think the stats bear that out as well. Sunderland were the
01:35dominant side. I think the only criticism we would have really is that Sunderland should
01:39have been further ahead. And that's sort of something that's perhaps dogged them through
01:45the earlier parts of the season. You want to see Sunderland kick on, really be clinical,
01:50put teams to the sword. That didn't happen against Millwall, which is a slight annoyance
01:54going into the play-offs. But I think, and Lebris touched on this after the game, actually,
01:59it was important, I think, to not win the crowd back round, but it was just a little
02:04reminder after the Preston and Coventry games, which were poor, that Sunderland have actually
02:08had a really, really good season. Everybody talks about that season under Mowbray when
02:13Sunderland got into the play-offs and Sunderland's points totals now well beyond that. They've
02:17won more games. And I think it's just a nice little reminder that this season, although
02:22we don't know the outcome yet, for me, has been very, very positive so far.
02:27Yeah, it's interesting that, Jason, isn't it, in terms of James leads to something that
02:33we've talked about all season with this frustration that Sunderland aren't more clinical, that
02:37they don't necessarily kill games off. We've talked a few times about the fact that there's
02:40only ever one goal in the game and you can view it both ways, can't you? Which is Sunderland
02:44doing unbelievably well to keep edging, most of the time, past these teams. The other side
02:49of it is you feel like that's what's probably holding them back from going to the next level.
02:54How did you feel from this game and how do you feel about this side? Because definitely
02:59a lack of clinical finishing is something we come back to time and time again.
03:04Yeah, I think it's a frustration, isn't it? Like you say, when they're winning, it's something
03:10that I think we can all overlook and learn to live with. Obviously, there have been times
03:14of season where it is massively hamstrung Sunderland and it's come back to bite them as well.
03:19I thought that on Saturday they were very good value for the win. I thought they deserved
03:23to win it. Like James sort of alluded to, Millwall barely laid a glove on them. I don't
03:27really remember Anthony Patterson having too much of an ought to do, if anything, in truth.
03:34And yeah, and Sunderland had the chances to go in and really sort of stretch their legs
03:37and open up a bit of a lead and make it a lot more comfortable for themselves. And then,
03:41although Millwall didn't necessarily bother them in those closing stages, we did see that
03:47sort of familiar thing where for the last five minutes or so, you know, Sunderland sat
03:51back, they were deep, they were compact, they were sort of seeing the game out, if you like.
03:55And it's going to continue to be a nervy thing for supporters when they sort of fall back
04:00into that pattern and they don't have the necessary advantage to just sort of ease themselves
04:06over the line, you know. But I thought that by and large, there really wasn't too much
04:09to complain about in that performance whatsoever. Obviously, we'll come on to the penalty, I'm
04:14sure, and that's sort of the battle. But aside from that and taking that out of the equation,
04:19I thought that Sunderland defended solidly. Again, I'm sure we'll speak about him, but
04:22I thought Alan Brown did wonderfully well coming in at right back. I thought Chris Mepham
04:26was towering at centre-back, Trey Hulme, wonderful at left back. And then on the front foot,
04:30I thought they looked re-energised. I thought that, you know, even though he'd been away
04:33on international duty, I thought the break looked as if it had done Chris Rigg the world
04:37of good. He looked more like the Chris Rigg that we were sort of accustomed to in the
04:41early stages of the campaign. And I think you could probably say the same about a few
04:44other players besides Patrick Roberts. I know caught James's eye in particular, and I thought
04:48he was wonderful as well. So all in all, a good performance from Sunderland. And yeah,
04:54not putting games to bed is a bugbear, but on the basis of Saturday and Saturday alone,
04:58I think Sunderland were very good value for those three points.
05:02Yeah, I think after that Coventry game, James, we were all looking at this game wanting to
05:07feel like, OK, that was the blip, like we're back, we're good. Obviously, we're not the
05:11perfect team, but did you feel that coming away from the game, even if it wasn't as comfortable
05:17in the end as we would have liked?
05:18Yeah, I think so. Jase is quite right to mention that Sunderland were never really in danger.
05:22I don't think Millwall had their first attempt on target until around the 38th minute. I
05:27think I remember that correctly. I'm just looking at the stats now. They only had two
05:31on target all game. I think there was one straight at Paterson in the second half. You
05:35know, the biggest threat really came in the closing stages when Chris Meppan produced a
05:39brilliant block on a Millwall shot. Up until then, I was never really concerned generally
05:44by the state of play on the field. It's just always a little bit of a worry, isn't it,
05:48when you're heading into the last five minutes of game and there's only a one goal advantage,
05:51especially when you've missed a penalty as well. You know, we know what Sunderland can
05:56be like and football could be like. So, yeah, as we've said, that's the main frustration.
06:01Jase is right to point out a few positives. I thought Patrick Roberts was nearing towards his
06:09best form for Sunderland. He had a really, really good game. And, yeah, as Labrice mentioned,
06:14very important to return to winning ways and to get that confidence back up. It's just a
06:19strange position for Sunderland at the moment, isn't it, in terms of they are absolutely now
06:24going to finish in the playoffs. I think the 15 points clear now of Middlesbrough, who I think
06:28are in seventh place. That gap to the top two has shortened a little bit, but it still probably
06:34looks beyond them, doesn't it, with seven or eight games left now. So, it's just a little bit of a
06:40strange spot to be in, but I think Sunderland is still a really, really good side. And once it does
06:45click in an attacking sense, hopefully that will come in the playoffs and it will be just about
06:50time for it. Let's talk about the match winner a bit, Jason, because I think at the moment,
06:57Trey Hulme's in a real purple patch in terms of his goal and his assist contribution. Obviously,
07:02playing out of position at left back, something that I always think he looks really good when he
07:06plays there, to be honest. It's obviously not ideal in that you want him sort of having the
07:10option to overlap as well as underlap. But what a player this guy has been for Sunderland. Obviously,
07:15we're currently playing through a hip injury because of the defensive issues. The thing about
07:20Hulme for me is that when he's playing this well, he's amazing. And when he has a dip,
07:26maybe he did a little bit earlier in the season, he was still good. This is just a guy who does
07:31not know how to dip below a six out of ten performance. And at the moment, we're seeing
07:35him at the upper end. One of the best bits of business Sunderland have done in the last,
07:40I mean, you name it, how many years? I mean, it's got to be up there, hasn't it? What was it?
07:45£200,000 to bring him in from Linfield. And I mean, he's repaid that so many times over. And
07:52God forbid, it's not any time soon. But if and when he comes to leave the club, who knows how
07:56much they'll get for him? Because he is arguably and has consistently been one of the best full
08:03backs in the championship for quite a while now. I think you're very right to point out the fact
08:09that he goes over the left back and we say he's playing out of position, but that almost feels
08:14a little bit unfair on him in some respects, because he goes over there and he adapts so
08:18naturally. And, you know, he doesn't look particularly perturbed by the prospect of
08:23having to go over to the other flank. So you sort of wonder how much he feels it's playing
08:26out of position, you know, or whether it's just an adaptation of a role that he's very,
08:29very comfortable in. I thought that, obviously, you mentioned there, because his stronger foot
08:34is his right foot, and he doesn't necessarily have the option of getting round Romain Mundel
08:39in the same way that he does Patrick Roberts. But I also thought that his ability to sort of
08:42cut in on that right foot opened up new possibilities and dimensions for Sunderland,
08:47you know, I think the best example of that is obviously the winning goal. You know, it's a
08:53really smart corner kick routine. But the finish is just, it's one of those, you can almost tell
09:00that he won't have felt it come off his boot, he struck it so sweetly. And, you know, and I think
09:07it was just rewards for a performance, which even taking that out of the equation was,
09:12like you say, just steady. He's just constantly, like, you can rely on Trae Hulme. He's never
09:19really going to put a foot wrong. He's been wonderful for Sunderland this season. I think
09:22James said, I know James gave him his man of the match, but he also said at one point on Saturday
09:26that there's an argument to be made for him being Sunderland's player of the season. I think it's a
09:29very strong argument. You know, I think Trae Hulme's been nothing short of brilliant. And I
09:33think Saturday, even playing quote-unquote out of position, he proved once again just how
09:38valuable he is to the Sunderland side. Yeah, it's that old thing, isn't it? The best ability is
09:44availability. And I think the big tick in Hulme's book is he just plays, doesn't he? Seemingly,
09:49no matter what the situation is, unless he gets himself suspended for some fruity tackles. But
09:53I think that's all part of the charm as well. Now, on behalf of the Royal Podcast, I'd like
09:58to officially welcome Alan Brown to the Sunderland midfielders who've been converted, and we're right
10:03back club. It's a long and illustrious list of cult heroes. But I have to say that when I was
10:10catching up with the news end of last week, and I kind of worked out that Brown was going to play
10:14right back, I wasn't that concerned. I think the reality is that there is a reason why a lot of
10:19midfielders convert a fullback. He's got loads of energy. He's good in 1v1 duels. He can handle a
10:25ball. It wasn't something I was too stressed about. What did you make of his performance,
10:29James? Because obviously it wouldn't be ideal going into a playoff final having a midfielder
10:34right back. But I think this is a definite option for Sunderland. I think it should be a role that
10:39suits him fairly comfortably. Yeah, he fitted in well, didn't he? He was solid, dependable. I think
10:44his experience in the game is really, really underrated. He played so much for Preston over
10:48the course of 10, 11 years. I was saying to Jase after the game on Saturday that it's actually a
10:53really good way to get his experience into the side, with that middle three being so young and
10:59reduce the breeze, preferring them. He's had a struggle, obviously, with his injury issues to
11:03get into that midfield slot. So I think having him as an option at right back is really, really
11:08positive. He just went about his business really competently, didn't he? His energy, his positional
11:14awareness was good. I thought he added a little bit of a threat in terms of his passing. I think
11:20the biggest compliment you could pay him is that if you didn't know anything about Sunderland or
11:25Alan Brown and you were told that he wasn't actually a right back, you would be quite surprised
11:30because he was just very, very good and very competent and definitely a good option to have,
11:35I think, going into the playoff campaign. It just goes to show, doesn't it, at times this season
11:43we've had injury or suspension crises and we've maybe looked at formation changes as fans, as
11:48pundits, as laymen, you know, who's going to play where. Lebris just does the simple thing, doesn't
11:53it? And nine times out of ten, it works quite well and putting Alan Brown at right back and
11:58moving Trey Hume over at left back definitely kept the balance of that defence and it proved
12:05to be a good decision in the end. We know that Serkan and Balaran hopefully won't be too long,
12:11but they're obviously not ready yet, Jase. Would you be prepared to stick with this for a couple
12:17of weeks just to give, you know, if we're looking towards trying to get this big pool of players
12:22who are ready and match fit for the playoffs, do you see this as a way over the next couple of
12:26weeks that we can get Alan Brown up to full match fitness? Yeah, definitely. I think it's presented
12:33itself as a really viable option to Lebris. Obviously not one that you would have necessarily
12:39expected sort of a few weeks ago, but I really, really liked Alan Brown at right back. I was
12:44really impressed with him. You know, we were talking in the press box and I said to James,
12:48all he really needed to do was, you know, just don't put foot wrong, just don't have a catastrophe,
12:54be a body, be a presence, bring that experience. And in the end, he actually provided so much more
12:58than that. You know, I thought that like James alluded to, obviously defensively he was very
13:03dependable, but on the front foot, I think that, you know, his pedigree as a midfielder really did
13:08come to the fore on occasion, his ability to sort of drop balls over the head of the opposing
13:13fullback and sort of bring Robertson and Rigg into the game in that way, although it didn't
13:17necessarily bear fruit for Sunderland. It looked like, you know, just an added dimension on the
13:22front foot, which I thought was really interesting. And, you know, he just, you know, this
13:29Sunderland team doesn't necessarily find itself like resplendent in terms of its experience. Like
13:35it does lack it in certain aspects, but I think that you're absolutely right. This is a good way
13:40of getting Brown into the team. And if he's going to keep on playing the way that he's playing,
13:44then I think you could almost argue that it's difficult to drop him. I know it's only one game
13:48and you don't want to get ahead of yourself, but there's a question that we were asked like on the
13:51on the whistle video on Saturday. And so I was like, well, you know, say Leo Kjelde comes back
13:55next weekend or whoever it might be, like, do you swap it back? Do you put Hume back at right back?
14:00And do you drop Brown? And I really think the Brits would struggle to do that. I think Brown
14:06was so good. And also the way that it freed up Hume to play on the left, I think it's a really
14:10viable option for him. And I would be more than happy to see Brown sort of continue in the team
14:15until we start to see the likes of a second back, you know, sort of bolster it in that sense.
14:19I think for me, based on that showing, and it's very harsh on Leo Kjelde, who I actually quite
14:24like, but I would rather Brown at right back than have Leo Kjelde at left back. I just think
14:29it seems a more natural fit and you do get the benefit of that experience. You know, we don't
14:35know whether Kjelde will definitely be available. The Brits hinted that he probably would be, but
14:39I'd be tempted to keep Brown in, keep the winning side, keep the momentum. And as Phil says,
14:44there is a long and illustrious history of this happening over the years. We need, we've been
14:48threatening for years, but we need to do a full podcast on sentiment figures. Like Dan Neal's one
14:54that played against Wigan, didn't he? A couple of seasons ago. Left back. Yeah. Which is just
15:00absolutely hilarious now when you think back, and he did a good job and Sunder won. But yeah,
15:06if you're listening to this, send us your Sunderland midfielders who've been converted
15:11because we will do that podcast when we get a chance over the next couple of weeks. But I think
15:16the thing for me is, as you alluded to there, the other thing is, it's not slight on Kjelde. It's
15:19just like, we've seen him at left back plenty. So we're not going to learn loads and loads about it,
15:25are we? Whereas I just think, you know, we've got a little bit of a chance here, potentially,
15:28to have a look at Brown, see whether it's an option. And if you go away from home against
15:31a good team and it really doesn't work, then you've learnt that, haven't you? And there's
15:35going to be plenty of games for Kjelde to play over the next few weeks.
15:38I do really feel for Kjelde, though, because, you know, he's waited patiently all season,
15:44and then all of a sudden you've got Dennis Serkin out and it's looking like you're going to get a
15:48run on the side and then you pick an injury up as well. It's unfortunate because he would probably
15:53say as well that when he has played, he's been in and out, hasn't he? He's never really had like
15:56a run of five or ten games. And, you know, I always say that it's really hard to actually
16:00judge a player until they've played five or ten games in a row, and Kjelde just never has for us.
16:05But he's going to get minutes, right? I mean, that's why I'm kind of leaning towards
16:09sticking with Brown on Saturday, because, you know, we go away to Norwich and then there's
16:14the Easter programme. You're looking at players like Chris Meppet and giving the position some
16:19under-in. I don't think they're going to play every minute of every game. So I just feel like
16:22I don't think it's going to be difficult for the Brees to get Kjelde back in at some point. So
16:26we'll see how that develops anyway. But listen, I've managed to get 16 and a half minutes without
16:31talking about penalties. I don't think I can go any longer. So I want to get your thoughts on it,
16:38but just obviously from afar at the weekend, like I saw 09 had missed a penalty. And you know what?
16:44I've got no problem with 09 taking the penalty. I've seen him take five or six maybe. Someone
16:49will have the exact numbers. And they've all been in class. So at six, there we go. So I had no
16:54problems with 09 not taking the penalty. But that was because I'd assumed that Isidor were being
16:58subbed off. That's the bit that personally, and we'll get your guys' thoughts on that, that was
17:04the bit that I just couldn't get my head around. Because I understand he missed his last two
17:07penalties. And you know, it was a bit of a disaster at Burnley and stuff. But he had an amazing record
17:12in his career before then. And I just think with the game situation, with Wes Sullivan down on the
17:17table, I just thought, what an opportunity to just put that to bed. Let Isidor take it, hopefully
17:22score it. I don't know. What did you guys think? I couldn't believe Isidor didn't take that penalty
17:27given the situation. Listen, if we were playing Burnley again, and it was the 90th minute...
17:32Against James Trafford, yeah.
17:34Yeah, but I just thought that was a perfect opportunity. So there you go, Wilson,
17:37smash it in and you're ready. What did we think?
17:41No, those were my thoughts exactly. I would have liked to have seen Wilson step up. It's a perfect
17:46opportunity to banish the demons and perhaps an indication that maybe that's still sort of in his
17:51head. He did actually say to us a couple of games later after the Burnley game that he would happily
17:55step up and take a penalty. Lebris hinted that it had been agreed before that Lugo 9 was going to
18:01take the penalty. I mean, it didn't look like that on the pitch. And Chris Metham actually
18:07confessed that he was surprised to see Lugo 9 stepping up. So for me, it needs clarity,
18:13doesn't it? It needs some clarity. We said on the On The Whistle video, penalties are really
18:16important. Lebris said it after the game. It's the perfect opportunity to score in terms of XG.
18:21We're going into a playoff campaign. There's going to be big moments, potential shootouts,
18:26it needs sorting, doesn't it? I do also think although Lugo 9 scored six of his penalties,
18:30they all come in shootouts. I just think it's a little bit different when you've got attacking
18:34players on the field. I love Lugo 9. I think he's been a brilliant servant for Sunderland over 300
18:41games. I think his technical ability with the ball at his feet is really exceptional and underrated.
18:47I think he passes the ball really well. I have no issue with him taking a penalty in that regard,
18:52but as part of a 5 or 6 or 7, I think it's fine. But as your designated penalty taker,
18:58I'm just not sure. Call me old-fashioned, but I like it to be an attacking player. I know there'll
19:02be people screaming about Stuart Pearce and John McPhail and all those sorts of people. And I get
19:08that. People will also point to the fact that Kevin Phillips missed a fair few penalties as well. But
19:13for me, there's just better candidates on the field. Isidor Mundell was annoyed, wasn't he?
19:18I wouldn't mind seeing Job take one. I know Roberts has missed one this season. I'm going to
19:22contradict myself with attacking players, but Trey Hulme strikes a good ball, doesn't he?
19:28For me, it was a bizarre episode and I think it's something that needs to be
19:35sorted pretty quickly. I'm just trying to think of anyone you haven't named there.
19:39Pat O, you didn't name. Somebody pointed out on Twitter, actually, because somebody said,
19:48Luke09 has never missed a penalty. And then somebody else said, well, Jordan Pickford's
19:52won for one and you don't see him taking them forever. I would back Pickford over most outfield
19:59players. I'm interested when you say, why do you think it's different in a normal game than a
20:05shootout? Because I'm interested in this because I'll come to Jason in a minute. But obviously,
20:10thankfully, this penalty didn't matter in the context of the game, in the context of the season.
20:14But there could be a point where penalties really do matter. So I'm interested in why you think
20:18the dynamics of a shootout are different to a normal game.
20:21Look, if you're the club's best penalty taker, then fair enough, you are, you are. And then
20:25you go and take the penalty. But I don't think Luke09 is and I don't think we should pretend
20:29that he is despite the six penalties scored. So to have him as one of a five or six or seven,
20:35fine, because he's got a decent record and shootouts, he's experienced, he strikes the
20:38ball well. But is he Sunderland's best penalty taker in an in-game situation?
20:42I just don't think so. And I think it's a little bit different.
20:48Are you worried about penalties, Chase? Or do you think the dynamics have gone into a shootout?
20:51Because to be honest, like, listen, anything can happen in a shootout. But if we, you know,
20:55if we get into a situation, the playoffs and Luke09 walking towards the penalty spot and a
20:59shootout, I'm as confident with him as anybody else. Like you might, you might miss. Like,
21:05obviously that can happen. But I don't know, how worried are you about the prospect of a
21:10penalty shootout given the way things have gone this season?
21:12I mean, but it's a 4-0 now that Sunderland have missed. I think like, I wouldn't be human if I
21:19wasn't a little bit worried by that. You know what I mean? The stats don't exactly, yeah,
21:23don't exactly fill you with confidence, do they? The 09 thing on Saturday, the more I've thought
21:29about it, we were baffled when it first happened. I think it's fair to say me and James sort of
21:34looked at each other and we're like, is he really grabbing that ball? And is he going to take this
21:37penalty? And I think it was as much, well, yeah, and this was the first time I'd seen him
21:42and this was part of the thing. The more I thought about it, I think it was almost like a victim of
21:46the spectacle, I felt. I think that there was such a sort of novel shine to Lugonai grabbing
21:52that ball and taking it, especially, and it should be said, when you've still got Isidore
21:57on the pitch. Obviously Mundell's reaction to it was one of, I think it's fair to say, frustration.
22:01And so there was almost this like, this bizarre, novel, just like curiosity about what was going
22:10to happen. And from that point onwards, it almost felt as if Lugonai wasn't just taking
22:14a penalty, he was almost performing like a circus act. And I think that that probably didn't help.
22:21But it almost certainly didn't help the pressure of it for him. I mean, look,
22:24he can obviously take a penalty. He scored multiple for Sunderland. I fully agree with
22:28James. I think it's disingenuous to pretend that he is Sunderland's best penalty taker. And I also
22:33think that, for me, I don't really understand why there is such a sort of obsession with
22:43rotating through players after they've missed the penalty. Players miss penalties, you know,
22:47you can name the best strikers, Erling Haaland has missed penalties, Mo Salah has missed penalties.
22:53Exactly. But they then step up and take the next one and have an opportunity to
22:57put it to bed. And the Isidore one, obviously I understand it was exceptional circumstances
23:01because he missed two and he missed two late on. It clearly got to him, he was visibly upset by it.
23:06But I do think that at some point since, he has to have been afforded the opportunity to put that
23:12to bed and he just hasn't. And so I don't really know where Sunderland will go from here. I don't
23:18think Lugonai will take the next one. I kind of, if I'm being honest with you, and this is nothing
23:22against him, kind of hope he doesn't take the next one. But yeah, it's just a baffling situation,
23:28isn't it? I think it just, if Isidore gets to a playoff campaign and it goes to penalties and
23:38he hasn't taken one since the Burnley miss and then he needs to take one, I think that's a bad
23:44place to be in personally. Yeah, that's exactly what I was, that's my, that's what I think,
23:48that's why I think this was such a big error because now it's just made it a bigger deal
23:53the next time Isidore has to take one. And I'm not saying that in hindsight, I would have felt the
23:56same way if 09 had buried it. I would have still, I would have said, well done Lugonai, great
24:01penalty, but I still feel like that would have been the wrong thing because now it's just made
24:04it a bigger thing for potentially one of your absolute key penalty takers. And that's the bit
24:09I just can't get my head around now. Obviously, Romain Mundell was disappointed. The tricky bit
24:15for us on the outside is that, as you said, James, there seems to be a little bit of doubt as to how
24:21pre-agreed this was. It's obviously not great if the team had had a discussion that was decided 09
24:26was taking it. Sounds like maybe it was a little bit more of a grey area than that, but what was
24:33said post-match, because obviously it's, what we can all agree on, it is not great for players to
24:39be arguing over penalties on the pitch. That is, there's so much histrionics now go around penalties
24:44from the opposition and it is hard enough to protect your penalty taker from the opposition.
24:50You can't be doing it yourselves, can you? No, I didn't think it was a great look. I don't think
24:57we need to sort of hang Romain Mundell out to dry or anything like that. I'd be concerned if he
25:01didn't want to step up and take a penalty. I think in a way he could spin it as a good thing. You
25:06wouldn't want to see it happen again. I'm quite happy for them to sort of have a pass on it. As I
25:10say, I do think there needs to be more clarity around it though, because as I mentioned before,
25:15Lebrice was fairly adamant that Lugo 9 was the designated penalty taker, but as I say,
25:21we spoke to Chris Metham afterwards. He was surprised in his own words and there seemed
25:25to be a little bit of deliberation. It looked to me like Dan Neil sort of pulled rank and said
25:30like Lugo 9's having it, so whether Lugo 9 was the designated penalty taker, but because Romain
25:36Mundell won it, he stuck his oar in and then it got a little bit heated. But as I say, I'm quite
25:41happy to give them a pass on that and give Romain Mundell a pass on that. He's a passionate player.
25:45He wants to add to his goal score and tally, which has been very good this season. He did win
25:50the penalty, but yeah, it's bizarre really. It's a very sudden thing that happened this
25:55season. We're talking about like a penalty drama after a win against Millwall when we're like
26:0015 points clear of seventh place. It's bizarre.
26:05Okay, let's finish it. Quickfire round. Who do you want to take someone's next penalty? James?
26:11Oh Christ. Isidor? Jason? Yeah, I'd be tempted to say Wilson or, to be fair,
26:19it wouldn't be a plus if Romain Mundell would take him. Give him a chance. If he fancies it,
26:22he fancies it. Who's your five, Phil, in a shootout? Or who's your one first? Go with your
26:29one and then we'll work out a five. Well, the next one Wilson has to take, in my opinion,
26:35and if he misses it, then okay, we've got a big problem. Okay, I'm just making my notes now
26:40because you put me on the spot. So, Wilson, definitely. I'm giving 0-9-1 in a shootout,
26:45100%. Enzo, surely he can kick a football. I know penalties are different, but come on.
26:56Having not seen him take one, I'm putting Mundell because he strikes the ball so cleanly. And then
27:03my fifth one, off the top of my head, I'm putting Jobb because I feel like, pressure situation,
27:09I fancy him. And then as my sixth one, I'm putting Alan Brown because he gives me
27:13smash it down the middle vibes and that's what I want from my sixth penalty taker.
27:17So, I've got Wilson, 0-9, Lefebvre, Mundell, Jobb and then Brown is my sixth. So, who've you got?
27:23I've got Wilson, Jobb, 0-9, Hulme, Dre Hulme and then Enzo. And then I've got Neil is my sixth.
27:32I think Dan Neil, captain, taking the penalty. Can strike a ball, you would hope.
27:38Jason, any major disclaimers?
27:42I mean, we haven't even mentioned Patrick Roberts, which is kind of insane,
27:46bearing in mind that he was a designated penalty taker at the start of the season.
27:50I would like to see Dre Hulme take one. I think if there's a man for the big occasion,
27:55God, I don't want to tempt fate here, but you know what I mean? I would have faith in Dre Hulme,
27:59is what I'm trying to say. So, yeah, I'd maybe chuck him in there, but I absolutely agree.
28:03Wilson's got to take the next one. Wilson's got to take the next one. Hopefully,
28:07we don't have to consider the prospect of a shoot-out at any point over the next few weeks.
28:11I am a big hypocrite, mind, because I've said I prefer attacking players to take penalties and
28:15I've named the number six as my sixth penalty taker and then two defenders and be five. So,
28:21idiot, essentially.
28:22The shoot-outs are apparently different.
28:26They are. You cannot tell me that being part of a 5-0-6 is different to being the guy who
28:33takes it in-game.
28:35So, just to surmise, if it's in the game, it's an attacker. If it's a shoot-out,
28:39you want six defenders. That's the James Covey philosophy.
28:42Yeah, that's it.
28:43Right, we've got that sorted. Okay, so before I went away, the injury situation was getting
28:49marginally better and now it is not. So, James, there's been quite lots of updates and news over
28:57the last four or five days. So, James, bring us quickly up to speed in terms of short, medium,
29:02long-term. Where are we actually at with this thing?
29:05Right, let me find my list because it is quite extensive. I think the headline after the Millwall
29:11game from Le Brice was that he said Enzo Le Fay and Leo Hjelda should be back for the
29:18West Brom game. Ogunsui and Abdoulaye are out. Obviously, Dan's nowhere to be seen at the moment.
29:24He said Perveda should be back soon, which is good. Denis Surgun, he said, will be another
29:31two to three weeks. Niall Huggins, obviously, absent in the long-term, as is Adji Alissi.
29:37Jenson Siltz had a little bit of a setback as well, although he didn't really provide a time
29:43for him. I suspect they might just try and get him right for next season, with it being such a
29:49sort of dangerous injury, that knee ligament injury. Obviously, we already discussed Ballard,
29:54who's a couple of weeks behind Le Fay at the moment, I think. So, I think that just about
29:59covers it, unless I've missed anybody. It sounds about right. I think everyone
30:03on my very, very long list, I'm pretty sure you've mentioned. Did you mention Sam Ed?
30:08I didn't. I think he's getting closer. I doubt it'll be West Brom, although you'll get a chance
30:14to ask him ahead of the game. He was very non-clinical on that.
30:19So, the return of Le Fay is relatively imminent. Now, I imagine some of them are going to be
30:25super cautious with him, to be honest, over the next couple of weeks, because obviously,
30:29another hamstring injury would be a bit of a disaster at this stage of the season. But,
30:34Jason, just looking back to Le Fay coming back, are we now at the point now where the
30:38ends are wide? I wouldn't say experiment, because it was actually pretty logical at the time,
30:42given the situation. Is that over? Are we now just dropping Le Fay in for Rigg, in for Job,
30:48in for Dan Neil? Do you think that's the way forward?
30:52Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think you sort of hinted at it there, but when he came into the
30:57club, Le Bris' hand was very much forced by the sort of dual absence of Mundell and Watson.
31:02Obviously, both of those players are back now. Mundell started the last few games. Watson
31:06has made a couple of cameo appearances from the bench. I don't really see how there could
31:13be an argument for Le Fay playing out wide ahead of either of those two, when it's sort
31:18of obvious that he was signed as a central midfielder, and it's sort of obvious that
31:22that is his preferred position as well. I think it's actually really exciting to be able to
31:28consider the prospect of him coming into this Sunderland side at this stage of the season,
31:32obviously with the caveat that Sunderland won't want to rush him back into the action. But, you
31:36know, there is a version of this where, again, I don't want to tempt fate, but we get sort of
31:42two, three, four weeks away from here, and Sunderland could have, you know, quote-unquote
31:46their best attacking line-up available to them. You know, if we sort of consider Mundell on one
31:51side, Roberts on the other, Le Fay playing him behind, and Isidoro and Maienda, obviously that
31:55would then give you the option to rotate Rigg, and then Bellingham sort of floating around on
32:00the other side, that's central three as well. So, it's, yeah, it's what he was signed for,
32:06and I still think that it's what would Bristol ideally want him to be in this side, and I think
32:11that what we've seen of him, the glimpses that we saw of him, and the way that he was able to
32:16impact games from that wide position, the prospect of then putting him into a central role where he's
32:21sort of more readily involved in the sort of cut and thrust of the game, I think there is the
32:26potential for him to be a real, real game changer for Sunderland. So, I think he's, you know, if and
32:32when he's ready, he's got to play in a central role. I think this feels like quite a big deal
32:38for me, James, not just because of how good Le Fay is, but I just think that even if it is sparingly
32:43initially, we've talked a little bit about how unusual the situation in the season is with where
32:47Sunderland are on the table, and I think in terms of keeping the momentum, and also a bit of
32:52freshness, a bit of excitement among the fan base, I think dropping Le Fay in is going to be a really
32:57big part of that, and of course what it does massively is it puts real competition in central
33:02midfield, which hasn't existed this season, and the three players who've played the vast majority of
33:05minutes have been incredible, really, when you consider their age and how many minutes they've had to play.
33:10I think just going into that playoff, I think that might just be the bit of edge that's needed in
33:14there for those players knowing that their place is under threat, because let's be real, if Le Fay is
33:19fit by the time the playoff starts, he's in the team, right? So, I just like the edge that's
33:24going to give to that midfield department over the next few weeks.
33:27Yeah, 100 per cent, it could be a real catalyst. I think we're all hopeful it will be a real spark.
33:31We haven't seen him play central midfield at all, have we, since he joined the club, and he was very
33:35much brought to the club as that. I mean, his skills on the left is in an unnatural position,
33:40just thinking of the Middlesbrough game where he was so majestic, what could he do in a playoff
33:44campaign with, you know, five, six, seven starts in the midfield under his belt? I think it is hugely
33:51exciting. I think you're right in what you say about Job, Neil and Bellingham. They've played a
33:55lot of football, they've played a lot of football together, but they haven't really been pushed in
33:59terms of starting games, have they? So, you're going to have to be on your metal with Le Fay around,
34:03because he is real, real, real quality. And I think, as Jace mentions as well, and I'm hesitant
34:11to say it actually, because Sunderland can do a Sunderland and we might never see it,
34:15knowing our luck, but a sort of a front four of Mundell, Le Fay and Roberts in behind Isidoro
34:21on my end, that's quite nice, that's quite exciting. And you would hope that, with the
34:26talent there, that that would be quite dangerous and potent as well. That's never going to happen,
34:31is it? Throw forward to next week where we're talking about Sunderland's two new injuries and
34:36attacking positions, but hey, we can dream for a while. So, West Brom on Saturday, obviously
34:43return to the Hawthorns, another reunion with Tony Mowbray. What do you two want to see from
34:49that game in terms of, are there any changes you're considering making, or do you just say,
34:54good win at the weekend, steadied the ship, we go again? James, I'll start with you. What are
34:59you thinking? I think I'm keeping the same 11. Obviously, the bench looked really, really light,
35:04didn't it, with Tom Lavery, Ben Middlemass, Harrison Jones was on there. Who else was on
35:09there? There was another one. But obviously, you'd hope Le Fay would come back into the mix,
35:13wouldn't you? Perhaps that bench will look a bit stronger with Hjelda coming back into it. So, I
35:18think, yeah, I'd be minded to name the same 11, as long as everyone's okay and fit. I guess
35:27there is a slight question around Trey Hewman, a sense that he has had this ongoing hip injury. Do
35:32you just keep him in the rhythm of playing games and keep him up to speed, or do you try and nurse
35:38that at some point with seven or eight games to go? I don't know, maybe that's a question for
35:41another time. But I think if everyone's fully fit, go with the same 11, because I thought it worked
35:46well. What do you think, Jason? Yeah, it's a really boring answer, but I agree. I think that
35:56it's a combination of the fact that it did work against Millwall. I liked Alan Brown at right
36:00back, I liked Trey Hewman at left back. I thought some of them looked solid and, in a sense,
36:05sort of more creative at times than they have in a little while. You know, they had really good
36:08spells of pressure, which obviously in the games against Coventry and Preston prior to the
36:12international break, they didn't. And then also, as James sort of alluded to, there just aren't
36:17really a great deal of options available to the Brits right now. Obviously, you know, if Le Fay
36:22and Hjelda are back in the squad, brilliant, but is he going to be sort of minded to bring either
36:26of those straight back and start at 11? Probably not. You know, the other one, at some point,
36:34you give Tommy Watson a start, try and keep him fresh and hungry and sort of fully incorporated
36:40in the side. At the same time, I think it'd be really, really harsh to drop Romain Mundell. So,
36:45yeah, I think that for me, again, it's a huge caveat, but if everybody's fit, if everybody's
36:52available, then yeah, same 11. I do think West Brom, at the Hawthorns, will pose a little bit
36:57of a different test and a greater test to that sort of makeshift, quote-unquote, back line than
37:02Millwall did at the standing flag because they didn't really offer anything. You know, a lot of
37:07that was to do with Sunderland's sort of good work in keeping the ball, but Millwall had a fair few
37:12injuries of their own coming into that day. It wasn't the strongest team. So, I think West Brom
37:16potentially will pose a greater threat and it'll be interesting to see how they cope with that.
37:21Two tricky games, isn't it? Two tricky away games with Norwich coming straight off the back of that.
37:26It'll be really interesting after that Coventry game to see how Sunderland manage that. So,
37:30there we go. I think that is the Millwall game thoroughly dissected. So, we're going to leave
37:35it there. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you, everyone, for listening and we'll
37:39hopefully be back, James, later in the week with a preview pod ahead of the West Brom game. All
37:43being well. Hopefully, hopefully with an opposition journalist, but if not, we'll
37:47rope Jason in and we'll just chat about Millwall. Sorry, we'll be chatting about that again.
37:56Yeah, no, no, no one is going to listen to that unless you come up with some new
38:00crazy penalty theories. So, yeah, maybe. So, right, well, we'll leave it there then. Thank
38:07you, everybody, for listening. Keep your eye on the Sunderland Deco website. It'll be absolutely
38:10stacked on there between now and the weekend. And as I say, keep your eye out on your podcast feed
38:14for the West Brom preview of some description later this week. But thanks for listening.