On Thursday, Rep. Maria Elvira Salazar (R-FL) chaired a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing entitled 'INL Should Fight Crime, Not Fight Conservatives'.
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00:00:00Yep. And the subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere will come to order. The purpose of this hearing
00:00:08is to discuss the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement for the purposes
00:00:15of the subcommittee's reauthorization of J-Family programming at the State Department.
00:00:22Now I'm going to recognize myself for an opening statement. And once again, thank you to the
00:00:29witnesses for coming and giving us your time and your expertise. Always welcome.
00:00:34So the Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, INL, acronymism,
00:00:40the motto is Security Through Justice. But unfortunately, for the last four years, they
00:00:45have been more interested in security through ideology, trading, fight against narcotics
00:00:52for seminars to teach pronouns, and workshops on gender diversity. I believe that the result
00:01:00of this alien ideology has been damaging to our national security, especially in a region
00:01:05which is very close to my heart, Central America. As some of you know, I was the Central American
00:01:10Bureau Chief for Univision Network during the Civil War in El Salvador. I lived in that
00:01:15country for many years until 1992 when they signed a peace treaty. Central America, don't
00:01:23I know it, has suffered for decades, and this was the perfect time to help them. Let's go
00:01:29to Guatemala. Almost 9 million migrants passed through their territory trying to come to
00:01:34the United States in the last four years. The Guatemalans needed INL's assistance to
00:01:40tackle the human trafficking and narcotics. But unfortunately, the Biden administration
00:01:45refused to work with the Attorney General of that country because apparently she was
00:01:51too conservative. They sanctioned her. Her name is Consuelo Porras. I don't know her,
00:01:56but I do know that she is the head of Ministerio Publico, which is for us, the United States,
00:02:02the Attorney General. Unfortunately, the previous administration refused to work with
00:02:10her. I believe that if the Guatemalans put her there, the Biden bureaucrats don't have
00:02:16any business in telling her that she was not fit for the job. And they attacked her over
00:02:23and over again. This is the perfect definition of putting politics and ideology before safety
00:02:29and respect for our neighbors' political views. If the Guatemalans are conservative, well,
00:02:34so be it. We've got to respect them. Let's talk now about El Salvador, the country which
00:02:39has been tackling a terrible gang problems. For 30 years, I was killed. I was about to
00:02:50be killed in few instances. I lived it. I know it. And things were terrible in El Salvador
00:02:59until President Bukele arrived in the picture. El Salvador should have been a perfect partner
00:03:07for the INL Bureau, which, by the way, it says that its mandate is to bring down transnational
00:03:14criminal organizations like MS-13 and Tren de Agua. But instead of training the Salvadorian
00:03:21police forces, INL, Law Enforcement Academy, taught gender and inclusion as one of their
00:03:29main goals for El Salvador. I believe, I'm sure, that at that moment, the Salvadorians
00:03:35were going to be saying, the gringos have gone crazy. I am no law enforcement expert,
00:03:41but I am fairly confident that getting MS-13 to learn how to pronounce correctly pronouns
00:03:47is not going to destroy them from committing any crimes. I am a witness. I have spoken
00:03:53to him that Bukele wants to work with the United States, but instead, the Biden administration
00:03:58cut funds to the Salvadorian police by 50%. Why? And INL concentrated its budget for El
00:04:06Salvador to give it to NGOs that attack his security plan. With or without us, Bukele
00:04:14was successful. His strategy reduced one of the world's highest homicide rates to nearly
00:04:21zero. He presented this strategy to INL, and they said, no, we're not going to work with
00:04:27you. During the last four years, unfortunately, woke ideology has replaced common sense, but
00:04:34thankfully, things have changed under President Trump, and we're going to return the Bureau
00:04:39of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs to its original mission, which is
00:04:45helping our allies fight crime, dismantling gangs, restoring law and order. They have
00:04:51a budget of $2 billion a year, and I think we owe it to the American taxpayers to commit
00:04:59and reestablish their mandate, finding drugs, stopping human trafficking, training police
00:05:05forces worldwide with American-made weapons bought by our allies. INL is one of the best
00:05:13tools we have as Americans to create a safer, stronger, and more prosperous country while
00:05:19helping our neighbors to do the same, whether it's in Central America or anywhere else in
00:05:23the world. I believe that we are still the United States. We're the point of reference
00:05:30for the rest of the hemisphere, at least when it comes to good governance, the beacon of
00:05:34hope that there is a political system that respects human dignity. Thank God we're back
00:05:39on the right side of history. I yield back. And now I recognize my dear ranking member,
00:05:48the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Castro, for any statements he may have.
00:05:52Thank you, Chairwoman. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you, Chairwoman, for convening this
00:05:57hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for testifying at this subcommittee's first hearing
00:06:03in Congress, this Congress. The topic of this hearing is broadly to discuss the reauthorization
00:06:07of the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. This is certainly
00:06:12important, and I look forward to the discussion on this issue. But I first need to paint a
00:06:17picture of what's going on right now. In just the last few weeks, we've witnessed a
00:06:21deeply troubling pattern of executive overreach and undermining of congressional authority.
00:06:28The administration has attempted to dismantle congressionally established agencies, USAID,
00:06:34the Inter-American Foundation, and the U.S. African Development Foundation, all without
00:06:40a single hearing from this committee where the administration has defended its actions.
00:06:47The Trump administration is trying to shut down the U.S. Agency for Global Media, a move
00:06:51cheered by autocrats and dictators from Havana to Moscow to Beijing to Caracas. They're trying
00:06:57to do this without this committee, the full committee, demanding the administration even
00:07:03explain themselves. The committee has given up its role of oversight. It has abandoned
00:07:11any oversight of the Trump administration, which is astounding in the history of Congress.
00:07:18The committee has abandoned—I'm sorry, we as a nation, because of the Trump administration,
00:07:24have abandoned brave human rights defenders in Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, and everywhere
00:07:30else in the world as we went back on our word and froze programs that support them. We left
00:07:37them to get rounded up and put in prison. That is what this administration has done.
00:07:45The committee has not called Secretary Rubio in or any other administration official to
00:07:50explain these actions. That's why I say they have abandoned any oversight responsibilities.
00:07:56Donald Trump has canceled temporary protected status and humanitarian parole for hundreds
00:08:01of thousands of Venezuelans, Nicaraguans, Haitians, and Cubans who have sought refuge
00:08:07in our country as millions of people have over generations. These were people who had
00:08:12status to be here. This is after President Trump said that he would only go after criminals.
00:08:21Masked ICE agents are pulling people off the streets in Texas, in Florida, and in cities
00:08:26across our country and sending them to prisons in El Salvador without any due process at all.
00:08:35President Bukele has become a mercenary for prisoners to house prisoners from the United
00:08:41States and, I imagine, other parts of the world. Every day we learn of new horrors and
00:08:46innocent people brutalized by the administration. To do this, the Trump administration has
00:08:51used a wartime authority, the Alien Enemies Act, and claimed that we are being invaded
00:08:56by Venezuela. The idea that we're currently at war with Venezuela would be news to most
00:09:03Americans. In fact, it would be news to almost all Americans. If we're truly at war, I certainly
00:09:09think this committee should be holding a hearing on it. Unfortunately, what we're seeing from
00:09:14the Republican majority is a total surrender of their power as legislators. Why hasn't
00:09:19this committee demanded testimony from Secretary Rubio, Pete Morocco, and others on all of
00:09:25this? We need answers. We need accountability. And we need this committee to do its job.
00:09:34We meet at a time when the United States is facing serious, complex threats abroad, and
00:09:38the responses from this Congress and this administration have too often been silence,
00:09:44confusion, or political theater. Across the world, vital U.S. foreign assistance programs,
00:09:50many of them managed through the INL Bureau, have been cut, delayed, or outright canceled.
00:09:57We've seen freezes to police academy training in Mexico, programs designed to disrupt human
00:10:02trafficking, and efforts to equip law enforcement agencies across the globe with the tools to
00:10:07fight money laundering, fentanyl production, and organized crime. These aren't just line
00:10:13items in a budget. They're lifelines to communities here and abroad. The impacts of those decisions
00:10:19are not abstract. They absolutely make Americans less safe. When you see more fentanyl entering
00:10:25this country, when violent cartels operate with impunity, this is part of the reason
00:10:30why. These decisions will haunt us in the coming years.
00:10:36As we turn specifically to the reauthorization of the INL Bureau and its programs, we must
00:10:40approach reauthorization with clear eyes. INL has been a critical tool in our foreign
00:10:45policy toolkit, but I agree that it must evolve. Synthetic drugs like fentanyl are not only
00:10:52devastating American families, they're destabilizing entire regions. Scam centers and cyber-enabled
00:10:59fraud schemes are preying on our most vulnerable citizens. INL must be equipped and reoriented
00:11:05to tackle these challenges. At the same time, we must resist the impulse to think that security
00:11:10means police alone. Sustainable progress requires more than just training and equipping security
00:11:16forces. It means building robust justice systems, effective prosecutors, professional judges,
00:11:23strong defense attorneys, independent courts, prisons, and investing in the civil society
00:11:29actors who hold their leaders accountable. Funding police while defunding anti-corruption
00:11:35and rule-of-law programs is not just short-sighted, it's dangerous and it's counterproductive.
00:11:42Today's hearing is an opportunity to begin a serious, hopefully sober, conversation about
00:11:47what INL needs to succeed and what reforms we need to pursue to ensure its work aligns
00:11:52with our values, advances our interests, and keeps our communities safe. Thank you, Chairwoman,
00:11:58and I yield back.
00:12:05Thank you, Mr. Castro. Thank you for your statement. And now we are pleased to have
00:12:09a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this important topic. Let me introduce
00:12:15Mrs. Chelsea Kenny. She's the Director of International Affairs and Trade for the United
00:12:21States Government Accountability Office. Thank you and welcome. Mr. Andres Martinez-Fernandez,
00:12:27Senior Policy Analyst, Latin America Allison Center for National Security at the Heritage
00:12:32Foundation. And Mr. Adam Isakson, Director for Defense Oversight, Washington Office on
00:12:40Latin America. And this committee recognizes the importance of the issues before us and
00:12:46is grateful to have you here to speak to us today. Your full statement will be made part
00:12:51of the record and I will ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to five minutes in
00:12:55order to allow time for members' questions. Now I recognize Ms. Kenny for her opening
00:13:01statement.
00:13:05Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro, and members of the subcommittee, thank you
00:13:09for the opportunity to discuss our findings and recommendations related to the Bureau
00:13:13of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs. INL contributes to some of the U.S.
00:13:19government's top security priorities. These include combating the flow of illicit narcotics
00:13:23into the U.S., promoting rule of law around the world, and combating transnational crime.
00:13:30We have reviewed many of INL's programs in recent years and identified successes as well
00:13:34as opportunities for improvement in at least 15 reports, many at the request of this committee.
00:13:41Since 2020, we have made 16 recommendations to improve the effectiveness of INL programs.
00:13:46I will highlight three key areas of improvement related to performance management, program
00:13:51monitoring, and program evaluation. First, we have made five recommendations to improve
00:13:57how INL is managing the performance of its projects. Of these, INL has implemented one
00:14:02recommendation on combating firearms trafficking in Mexico, but four related to firearms trafficking
00:14:08in the Caribbean and on assistance to Mexico more broadly remain unaddressed. Performance
00:14:14management is meant to ensure that the U.S. government is spending taxpayer dollars effectively
00:14:19and achieving U.S. goals. For example, since 2008, the U.S. has provided over $3 billion
00:14:25in assistance to Mexico to address crime and violence and enhance the country's rule of
00:14:29law. However, in 2023, we reported that INL could not demonstrate that it was achieving
00:14:35its goals because of gaps in its approach to performance management. Specifically, we
00:14:40found that INL had established goals and objectives but had not identified which of its projects
00:14:45were key to achieving them. So, for example, under the goal of preventing trans-border
00:14:49crime, INL had established a joint objective with Mexico to disrupt and dismantle narcotics
00:14:54production. However, while INL implemented and collected data on individual projects,
00:15:00it had not linked which of these projects were helping to meet this goal. We recommended
00:15:04that INL strengthen its performance management approach to determine whether it was achieving
00:15:08its goals in Mexico. Considering the importance of the U.S.-Mexico relationship and the level
00:15:13of U.S. investment, we have identified this to be a priority recommendation for the agency.
00:15:19Second, we have made six recommendations to improve INL's program monitoring. Of these,
00:15:25INL has implemented three, but three related to its wildlife trafficking programs remain
00:15:31unaddressed. Consistent program monitoring helps assess progress and identify problems
00:15:36that might prevent the Bureau from reaching its goals. Wildlife trafficking is a crime
00:15:40that fuels corruption and destabilizes communities. In recent years, media reports have alleged
00:15:45that park rangers, trained by U.S.-funded entities, had committed human rights abuses,
00:15:51including sexual assault and murder. Since 2020, State has taken steps to enhance safeguards
00:15:56to prevent these abuses. However, we found that INL had not conducted its consistent
00:16:01program monitoring to ensure that these U.S.-funded entities reported on the implementation or
00:16:06effectiveness of these safeguards. We also found an alleged incident of sexual abuse
00:16:11by a ranger that INL was unaware of. INL agreed with our recommendations, including that it
00:16:16clarify reporting requirements for human rights abuses. Third, we have made two recommendations
00:16:23to INL to conduct program evaluations, or studies that would determine how well a program
00:16:27is working. For example, in 2024, we reported that despite years of support for activities
00:16:32to strengthen the security situation in Haiti, including specific efforts to improve the
00:16:36capacity of Haiti's national police, INL had no formal plans to evaluate the effectiveness
00:16:42of its activities. We recommended that INL conduct such an evaluation, and the Bureau
00:16:46agreed. INL plays a critical role in achieving U.S. security priorities, such as combating
00:16:51transnational crime and supporting rule of law worldwide. INL's effectiveness depends
00:16:56on robust performance management, program monitoring, and program evaluation. While
00:17:02INL has made some progress, important gaps remain. We urge INL to fully implement our
00:17:07recommendations to help ensure that it is spending taxpayer dollars effectively and
00:17:11achieving U.S. goals. Thank you, and I would be pleased to respond to your questions.
00:17:18Thank you, Mrs. Kenney. And now I recognize Mr. Martinez-Fernandez for his opening statement.
00:17:26Thank you, Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro, and members for holding this hearing
00:17:30and inviting me to participate. The Western Hemisphere is experiencing a period of surging
00:17:37instability, violence, and criminality, largely driven by increasingly powerful criminal organizations.
00:17:43From Haiti's collapse at the hands of gangs, newfound narco-violence in the once-peaceful
00:17:48Ecuador, increasingly deadly drug cartels in Mexico and Colombia, and more, we are constantly
00:17:54confronted by evidence of a failed status quo for security in our hemisphere. These
00:17:59threats do not stay in Latin America. Instead, they drive increasingly deadly and destabilizing
00:18:05consequences to the United States and directly to the American people. The absence of robust
00:18:11and effective security engagement from the United States in Latin America is a key driver
00:18:16of the current state of affairs. Indeed, the collapse of the hemispheric consensus on counter-narcotics
00:18:22is due in no small part to decisions on the part of Washington to blunt and curb its security
00:18:28cooperation in the Americas away from the core support from regional security forces.
00:18:34This trend is driven in part by Washington's focus on other foreign conflicts, as well
00:18:41as a series of challenges that we continue to focus on in other parts of the world. However,
00:18:48the impact and inattention that this has brought has been exasperated by mission drift and
00:18:57the watering down of critical institutions like the State Department's International
00:19:02Narcotics and Law Enforcement Bureau. Additionally, hemispheric security and stability has suffered
00:19:09from the Biden administration's politicization of U.S. security engagement and tools in Latin
00:19:13America. The so-called expert consensus on Latin America's security policy has shifted
00:19:21dramatically over the past few decades, prompting detrimental changes in the nature and magnitude
00:19:27of U.S. security cooperation. Vocal leaders and activists have successfully framed organized
00:19:33crime in Latin America as primarily being an issue of economic development and judicial
00:19:38institutions, deemphasizing in particular the role of enforcement and security forces.
00:19:45Today, at the core of this new conventional wisdom in many circles in Washington and in
00:19:51the region is increasingly the poorly substantiated claim that confronting Latin America's powerful
00:20:00criminal organizations only served to exacerbate insecurity and criminality. One of the key
00:20:09events that provided support for this view was the spike in violence in Mexico during
00:20:14the late 2000s following President Felipe Calderón's efforts to crack down on the cartels.
00:20:19However, notably today, after over a decade during which the Mexican government has pulled
00:20:26back from confronting the cartels, Mexico's homicide rates now exceed the worst years
00:20:32of violence during the Calderón administration. Add to that the over 100,000 overdose deaths
00:20:39in the United States due to fentanyl and other deadly drugs. Indeed, Mexico's disastrous
00:20:45hugs-not-bullets strategy on the cartels showcases the dire consequences of deemphasizing
00:20:51enforcement and security forces in our security policies in the Western Hemisphere. When President
00:21:00Andrés Manuel López Obrador, with Mexico, the Merida Initiative drifted away from its
00:21:08initial focus of providing training, equipment, and operational support to Mexican security
00:21:14forces, and instead, U.S. support shifted for reform of the Mexican judicial system
00:21:24increasingly. Then, when President López Obrador fully abandoned the Merida Initiative,
00:21:30the new security cooperation framework further deemphasized security forces and the role
00:21:36of enforcement as a core aspect of security policy. In both Mexico, Colombia, and elsewhere,
00:21:43the United States failed to push back on regional leaders' abandonment of security
00:21:47cooperation and commitments. This was particularly egregious under the Biden administration,
00:21:53where we saw the increase of deaths of American people reaching 100,000 each year due to fentanyl
00:22:03and other drugs, and yet we did not adequately push the administration in Mexico to address
00:22:10the security threat posed by the cartels. Even worse, at times, the Biden administration leaned
00:22:25into this wrongheaded approach on organized crime by regional leaders. In the case of Colombia,
00:22:29President Biden actively drew attention away from Colombia's deteriorating security situation
00:22:35by ending the longstanding program of U.S. monitoring of coca cultivation.
00:22:40To confront the dire threats posed by organized crime in our hemisphere,
00:22:48U.S. security assistance through INL and other critical agencies should be bolstered and
00:22:53refocused on the core mission of counter-narcotics and transnational organized crime. Failure to do
00:22:59so urgently will bring increasingly deadly consequences for Latin America and for the
00:23:04American people. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Martinez-Fernandez. I now
00:23:12recognize Mr. Isakson for his opening statement. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro,
00:23:20thank you so much for holding this hearing and for inviting me. The State Department's Bureau
00:23:25of INL manages the largest U.S. aid account for security forces in Latin America and the Caribbean,
00:23:30though it pays for other things, too. Worldwide, it's about a billion and a half dollars. In our
00:23:35hemisphere, it's at least $600 million. Now, for years, INL was jokingly known as the Drugs and
00:23:41Thugs Bureau. Its success was measured in hectares eradicated and kilos seized and kingpins arrested.
00:23:47That narrow focus reflects its 1980s-era statute, and it hasn't really worked. You don't have to
00:23:54take my word for it. Just look at overdose deaths. Look at street prices. Meanwhile, our understanding
00:23:59of organized crime and how to combat it has evolved. Yes, drugs are still a top revenue
00:24:04stream for criminal groups, but crime groups also make billions from gold mining, migrant smuggling,
00:24:09extortion, and more, sometimes with even bigger profits than they're getting from drugs. The drug
00:24:14market itself has shifted towards synthetics like fentanyl and meth, which don't involve most of
00:24:19Latin America outside Mexico. And mass migration has made the question urgent. How can we help
00:24:24people feel safe enough to stay in their own communities? This reframes success. It's no longer
00:24:30just kilos and hectares. It's whether people feel secure. It's whether justice works. It's whether
00:24:35officials fear punishment for corruption. To its credit, INL has shifted. It no longer tries to
00:24:41fight crime the way you'd fight a guerrilla insurgency. While guerrillas fight governments,
00:24:46organized crime infiltrates them and hollows them out by bribing, threatening, co-opting,
00:24:51and corrupting. That makes it a much harder, much more complex fight. Now, in response, INL has begun
00:24:57putting more emphasis on the L, rule of law, and civilian law enforcement, rather than just the N.
00:25:02Funding has increasingly gone to prosecutors, judicial institutions, police academies,
00:25:07oversight bodies, and independent experts and investigators. A whole comprehensive security
00:25:13sector, a table with many legs, and not just the people wearing uniforms. There's a growing
00:25:19realization that real progress is going to take time, and it depends on breaking collusion between
00:25:24government and crime. That's why efforts like the Commission Against Impunity in Guatemala,
00:25:29the CICIG, mattered so much. Brave people made historic anti-corruption gains, and INL was there
00:25:35to support them. Ironically, denarcotizing INL's mission may be the best way to reduce drug supplies
00:25:41in the long term. But that shift also means we need to rethink some obsolete frameworks,
00:25:47like the annual drug certification process. As the 2020 Western Hemisphere Drug Policy Commission
00:25:54noted, it's a relic. It hasn't been used to seriously cut AIDS since the 1990s, and even
00:25:58then, a Republican-majority Congress and a Democratic White House scrambled in the late
00:26:0490s to restore it when security began deteriorating in Colombia. So yes, INL needs reform. WOLA supports
00:26:11a serious rethink to bring the Bureau and its statutes into the mid-21st century. What we don't
00:26:16support is a rushed 90-day review full of abrupt freezes and cuts with no input from partners
00:26:22around the world, many of whom have been risking their lives to fight corruption and crime and
00:26:26really depend on their relationship with us. The little we've seen of the proposed cuts so far is
00:26:30worrying. Aid to police and military agencies looks mostly untouched, but support to civil
00:26:36society, justice institutions, UN programs, that looks like it's cut by about half. That risks
00:26:43turning INL back into what it once was, a little drugs and thugs bureau. And we know where that
00:26:49leads, brief dips in violence or drug supplies, followed by resurgence. It's just a constant game
00:26:55of whack-a-mole. Organized crime figures get taken down, but organized crime remains strong. Corrupt
00:27:01officials keep operating with impunity. People keep fleeing their homes, often coming here. I'm
00:27:06not asking to preserve the status quo. Frankly, I can't defend much of it because I can't see it.
00:27:11Public reporting on INL aid has become vague, inconsistent, and far less quantitative. It's
00:27:17hard to track where the money goes and what it achieves, and reporting requirements, if we do
00:27:21reauthorize INL, have to improve. That right now, oversight is difficult, and it makes the whole
00:27:26program hard to defend when an administration comes to power questioning its entire value.
00:27:31This committee can help. First, it can urge INL to keep expanding its focus on organized crime,
00:27:37corruption, and citizen security, not just counter-narcotics. Second, it can press for
00:27:42much better transparency. Third, it can insist that any reform effort be thoughtful, inclusive,
00:27:48and deliberate, not a 90-day rollback. There's lots of space for bipartisan agreement here,
00:27:54I think. I look forward to exploring that here and any other time that you'd like in the future.
00:27:57Thank you again for organizing this discussion.
00:28:02Thank you, Mr. Isakson. Now, for your testimony, I now recognize myself for five minutes of
00:28:08questioning. I am delighted to hear, Mr. Isakson, that you believe, certain quotes here, that INL
00:28:19needs to be modernized, needs to be reformed, and that maybe they are just following some of the
00:28:25precepts of the 1980s, but specifically, I agree that they need to be reorganized and there needs
00:28:35to be some revamped, but let's go to the last four years. Do you really believe that talking to the
00:28:43Guatemalans and to the Salvadorians about gender ideology or the pronouns or how you can—that
00:28:51there are many genders—do you really think that talking to them was going to make the United States
00:28:56and themselves safer? Safer? I mean, you were going to keep people home? So, explain how one thing
00:29:04comes to link to the other. I would like to know what percentage of the program actually was about
00:29:10gender and identity and things like that. If it's—we don't have that data? Focused. The main
00:29:15focus. The Guatemalans were complaining. In terms of dollar amounts? Of course, and in terms of
00:29:20political willingness and desire to infiltrate these forces with our ideology, the American
00:29:28Biden administration ideology, don't you think that it's—that it was—we did a disservice to them
00:29:34and to us? If you're fighting human trafficking where most victims are women, yeah, you need
00:29:39that. How can you be talking about sex when you're trying to fight human trafficking? That's true.
00:29:44I just need to know, you know, how much of the programming really did go in that direction
00:29:49instead of, like, Joint Task Force Alpha in Guatemala, which was fighting human smugglers.
00:29:52The Guatemalans, perfect example. They hated a lady by the name of Consuelo Porras. Do I know
00:29:59her? No, I don't, but I know that she's the AG of the country, so why don't we work with her?
00:30:04Oh, because she's too conservative. Who are we to say that to the Guatemalans? Why?
00:30:10I don't know if Consuelo Porras— Oh, no, it's—everything I'm saying is quoted. Consuelo
00:30:14Porras is detested. Oh, I think she is detested. It was, okay. Well, but who are we, the Americans,
00:30:19to come and say, oh, Consuelo is not the person that you need to work with? She's the AG.
00:30:23I've never heard that she was held at arm's length because of—because she favored free markets or,
00:30:28like, you know— She was too conservative.
00:30:30Because she was conservative. Too conservative.
00:30:30Because of significant corruption, according to what I saw.
00:30:33You know what I'm telling you, so please, help me understand why the Biden administration
00:30:39wanted to concentrate its resources, when he talks to reforming and securing the
00:30:46Salvadorian Guatemalan police, concentrated on something that had nothing to do with
00:30:51national security for the United States.
00:30:54My impression was that INL and the Justice Department worked very hard with—not with
00:30:58Consuelo, but with the rest of the public ministry in Guatemala on something called
00:31:02Joint Task Force Alpha, which was a big effort to get at the nodes of the network of
00:31:07migrant smuggling. And they've actually taken out a lot of migrant smugglers,
00:31:10working with the attorney general's office in Guatemala in the last few years.
00:31:13And the Trump administration—
00:31:14Would give INL—did you know this—would give money to the NGOs in Guatemala to help the
00:31:18migrants go have a smoother ride while they were going through Guatemala and getting to Mexico?
00:31:24I think that would have been illegal in Guatemala, where they actually arrest and deport
00:31:28more than 20,000, 30,000 migrants a year back into Honduras.
00:31:32Nine million went through it. All right.
00:31:34Yeah, a lot do get through.
00:31:35Let's go to El Salvador. Bukele, what do you think—what's your—what
00:31:40ranking do you give to Bukele from one to ten?
00:31:44I would give him—I would give him a four, perhaps. I think he's a brilliant communicator,
00:31:49but I do worry about checks and balances.
00:31:50What about the communicator? What has he done with the country?
00:31:54He has put three percent of the male population in prison, which, yeah, by doing so did eradicate,
00:31:59for now, a lot of the gangs. I do worry about the future of democracy.
00:32:00And you and I agree that if there's one innocent guy in Desiccote,
00:32:04I was the first one who told him, you got to get him out because we don't want innocent people in
00:32:08jail. But the thing is that, you know, Desiccote is full of people who are full of tattoos that
00:32:12are revealing who they were and what they did. You know, each drop meant one murder.
00:32:17So do you think he did something right?
00:32:21If these people were facing judges and if their families knew what was going on with them,
00:32:28it would be right. But right now, almost everybody there is pretrial,
00:32:31and there's not even dates for most of their trials. So yeah, they need a fair shake. I mean,
00:32:36it was right to clean out the streets.
00:32:37I agree with you that everyone needs due process. Yes, sir.
00:32:40That's just not happening right now.
00:32:42All right. But what about us working with him? And maybe if INL would have done its job,
00:32:47then Bukele would have been able to really help. It would help him to do a better job, don't you
00:32:52think? You're talking about diversity and inclusion and pronouns.
00:32:57I think one of INL's biggest obstacles actually there is, and I actually support it,
00:33:02is language that both Republicans and Democrats put in the foreign aid bill saying that
00:33:07half of aid, I believe it's half, to El Salvador is cut until they can certify that the human
00:33:11rights situation is good and is improving. And right now, more than 300 people dying in the
00:33:16jails in the last three years and widespread allegations of torture. It's been hard to
00:33:20certify that.
00:33:21What happens to the human rights of the people who were outside being killed by those gang members,
00:33:26which is why he got 90% of transparent and internationally observed elections. We agree
00:33:33with that.
00:33:33Oh, yeah. If I was a shopkeeper being extorted-
00:33:34The Caledonians love the guy, so why do we have to hate him? Who are we to say to this guy,
00:33:39don't do it that way?
00:33:40I think we're just worried about what it's going to look like in five years.
00:33:42But yeah, right now, if I'm a shopkeeper who had to pay-
00:33:45Don't you think that they should be concerned about what they're going to be looking like
00:33:48five years from now? That's their concern, not ours. We're here to help them
00:33:52have a better police force. All right? Do you agree with that, right?
00:33:56We're certainly here to help them have a better police force,
00:33:58but we don't want to be funding abuses in the short term.
00:34:02I think that I am exceeding my time. I yield back now. I'm going to recognize
00:34:07the ranking member for five minutes. Thank you.
00:34:18All right. Thank you, Chairwoman. Yeah, I want to take up this issue really quickly
00:34:23because we disagree, Maria, on this. I don't think there's ever been a bias of the United States
00:34:33against conservative leaders and in favor of leftist leaders.
00:34:37In fact, when you look at the history of the US involvement in Latin America,
00:34:42Latin America has often- I mean, the United States, unfortunately, in decades past,
00:34:46worked to undermine the leadership of leaders on the left and treated leaders on the right
00:34:53as friends and, in fact, supported what were some of the most brutal dictatorships,
00:34:59like the Pinochet ruling in Chile.
00:35:04And so, you know, when we think about how we provide US assistance, how we provide taxpayer
00:35:12money, the way we should be thinking about it is who is operating consistent with US values
00:35:22and what we stand for. So democracy, freedom, respect for human rights.
00:35:27Really, regardless of where you are on the political spectrum, whether you're on the
00:35:30left or the right as a leader, we ought to support leaders who are pursuing those things.
00:35:36And so, Consuelo Porras, as I understand, had been sanctioned for severe corruption.
00:35:46That's why we're not working with her, not because she's got a certain ideology.
00:35:53You know, and Bukele also, I think it's true. I mean, he has gotten a lot of crime off the
00:36:00streets and has scared a lot of people, especially young men. But so has Xi Jinping in China.
00:36:09And so, you know, if the question is, well, why don't we just let people do what they're
00:36:15going to do? OK, I get that. But the question for us is, are we going to back them up with
00:36:21money to commit human rights abuses and other things that we would never allow for in the
00:36:27United States ourselves? Now, bear in mind, in the last few weeks, we've seen some disturbing
00:36:32instances of people literally been picked off the street for having exercised their First Amendment
00:36:38rights by government agents who don't identify themselves, who aren't dressed in uniform,
00:36:45and who barely present credentials, if at all. Those are the kinds of activities that you're
00:36:50used to seeing in countries that violate people's rights. So just, you know, with that
00:36:57disagreement, let me get into a question really quick. Ms. Kenney, as you know, the administration
00:37:05is conducting multiple reviews of foreign assistance programs, and I believe those
00:37:08programs have been incredibly disruptive and that the review has not been done in good faith.
00:37:14In 2019, the first Trump administration did something similar on a smaller scale.
00:37:19They unilaterally froze $400 million in foreign assistance funding in Central America for over
00:37:2314 months. At the time, I, along with other colleagues, requested the GAO assess the
00:37:29impacts of that freeze. The GAO determined that many programs, including State Department INL
00:37:35Bureau programs, had been adversely affected. And based on your experience with the 2019 freeze,
00:37:41do you expect adverse effects from the ongoing freeze on many INL programs?
00:37:47Thank you for that question. Yes, when we reviewed the freeze in 2019, we found that
00:37:52there were a number of adverse effects. To the State Department, we found that about 65 or 39%
00:37:59of INL programs actually suffered adverse effects, where they had to reduce the geographical region
00:38:05in which they were implementing programs, they had to reduce the number of beneficiaries who
00:38:09could participate in trainings, they had to reduce the quality of programs, and programs
00:38:14that relied on implementing partners suffered even more consequences because they had to lay
00:38:21people off and they were unable to pick up those programs when the funding resumed. However, that
00:38:26funding was really just a freeze of one-year funding, and in a lot of ways, those programs
00:38:29were able to continue because of funding that was still available in the pipeline from prior
00:38:33year's funding. We haven't had an opportunity to review the funding freeze that is occurring right
00:38:38now, but my understanding is that those programs aren't able to access prior year funding either,
00:38:44and so my understanding is that they're not continuing at all. We haven't had, I'm sorry.
00:38:48Sure, sure, no, and thank you for that, and let me ask a follow-up really quick. Will the GAO be
00:38:52willing to conduct a review of the ongoing freeze and cancellation of hundreds of millions of
00:38:58dollars in foreign assistance programs? Yes, we'd be happy to do that work.
00:39:01Thank you so much. With that, I yield back, Chairwoman.
00:39:05Thank you, Ranking Member Castro, and now give the opportunity to Representative Lawler from the
00:39:11State of New York. Thank you, Chairwoman. It's common practice for transnational criminal
00:39:17organizations in South and Central America to source precursor chemicals from China and synthesize
00:39:25illicit substances like fentanyl. These criminal organizations then traffic them into the United
00:39:31States, where they have infiltrated far too many communities and led to unimaginable tragedies
00:39:38for a lot of families across our nation. 70,000 Americans are dying on an annual basis from
00:39:45fentanyl overdose. Mr. Martinez-Fernandez, how do you assess INL's role in stopping the influx
00:39:52of deadly fentanyl into the United States? Clearly, INL and the U.S. government is not
00:40:04adequately acting either on resources or focus to stop the flow of fentanyl. As you mentioned,
00:40:13over 70,000 overdose deaths just from fentanyl, when you add in all the other illicit drugs,
00:40:18100,000. I think there's a very real resource question that has to be
00:40:27addressed. There's also a partnership and cooperation side to that, where our relationship
00:40:35with Mexico, particularly over the past four years under the Biden administration,
00:40:41cooperation, security cooperation, was almost non-existent. Even offers to support
00:40:49port security to identify fentanyl precursors coming in were rejected by the Mexican government.
00:40:58The challenges of migration, which grew out of control under the Biden administration as well,
00:41:05led to a deprioritization, in my opinion, of the fentanyl threat with dire consequences.
00:41:12Now, President Trump has obviously rallied significant resources, particularly from the
00:41:17Department of Defense, to the border. I think that's an important aspect of confronting this
00:41:23threat. But we also need to press the Mexican government to take action. And there's also,
00:41:31certainly, the administration is making progress on that front and bringing to bear some economic
00:41:36tools. I think INL is going to play an important role, because at some point, we need to restore
00:41:42the security relationship with Mexico to a functional arrangement with actually targeting
00:41:51the cartels, rather than just having symbolic actions by the Mexican government be the sum
00:41:58total of the relationship, which is essentially what we've seen for the past four years.
00:42:03So what can INL do to address China's role related to the precursor chemicals that are
00:42:10exported into Mexico and other parts of the Western Hemisphere?
00:42:14So I think, certainly, with the Chinese presence in Mexico is also significant. So there's action
00:42:22to go after some of the brokers, as well as some of the trade infrastructure, which is utilized by
00:42:29the Chinese in Mexico to facilitate the flow of illicit precursors. I think that more action also
00:42:39needs to be done in Asia on this front. We've seen movement of illicit fentanyl supply chains,
00:42:46even out of China. Unfortunately, we don't have a cooperative relationship
00:42:52on this issue with the government in China. So there are significant limitations on INL's ability
00:43:00to act there. But I think ensuring that in Mexico, in particular, we are confronting the presence of
00:43:10Chinese criminal organizations, as well as further south. We've already seen in countries like
00:43:16Guatemala the movement of these illicit supply chains of fentanyl to new countries. And we need
00:43:24to make sure that we're reinforcing border security, port security, and those security
00:43:29relationships to make sure that it doesn't just migrate to another country.
00:43:35In what way is the INL working with other entities within the U.S. government, like the DEA,
00:43:45on this particular issue? And how can they improve upon that to really crack down on this? Obviously,
00:43:54we have a demand issue in this country that is part of the problem of the deadly flow of fentanyl.
00:44:03Yeah. So I think there is some important cooperation with other agencies, particularly
00:44:12Department of Homeland Security, on the issue of border security within the region, and
00:44:20ensuring that regional partners can have those capacities to ensure that those flows don't move
00:44:27through their country without their ability to intercept them. And on the U.S. side and the
00:44:34demand side, as you referred to, I think there, as I understand it, there's some conversations
00:44:40happening here in Congress about potential changes as far as consequences, judicial
00:44:46consequences, in the United States that are going to align, I think, the reality of the threats and
00:44:54the deadliness of this drug with the consequences that people face.
00:45:07Thank you, Representative Lawler. Now I give the word to Representative Stanton of the state of
00:45:13Arizona. You have five minutes. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The fentanyl crisis is especially
00:45:20acute in my home state of Arizona, where thousands of Arizonans die from opioid overdose every single
00:45:26year. I know my colleagues and I across the aisle agree we need to do more to stop the flow of
00:45:32fentanyl and other deadly narcotics into the United States of America. That's why I'm at a
00:45:38loss to understand why the Trump administration has moved to cut funding for the State Department's
00:45:45Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs work in Mexico. Drastic
00:45:50cuts. INL works across law enforcement agencies, intergovernmental agencies, and with the courts
00:45:56in our partner countries to disrupt the illicit drug trafficking and bring criminals to justice.
00:46:03Under previous administrations and with funding approved at a bipartisan manner, Mexico has been
00:46:08the third largest recipient of INL funds. INL supports more than 100 projects working to combat
00:46:13fentanyl trafficking and transnational crime by providing services, training, and much needed
00:46:19equipment. One project that has benefited from the INL has deployed cargo scanners and
00:46:26drug testing equipment to Mexico's port of Manzanillo, critical technology to detect and
00:46:33interdict precursor chemicals from the People's Republic of China. Another INL project supported
00:46:39a recent operation in Tucson, Arizona that led to the arrest of drug trafficking leader and six
00:46:44other operatives. A good return on taxpayer investment. Since the Trump administration's
00:46:51freeze on foreign aid, only 15 percent of INL's programs in Mexico have received waivers to
00:46:57resume their work, and many of those have not yet received payment. As former Ambassador Marine
00:47:03Helicopter Pilot John Feeley phrased it recently, quote, they shot the golden goose right in the leg,
00:47:09unquote. Make no mistake about it, the Trump administration is hamstringing our response to
00:47:14fentanyl in the region, and while using this crisis as a justification to raise taxes on
00:47:19working families through the misguided across-the-board tariffs on Mexico. Mr. Isaacson,
00:47:26how does this massive cut to INL program hamper our ability to stem the flow of fentanyl into the
00:47:32United States? It definitely deals a blow to our efforts against fentanyl. This is the hardest
00:47:37drug challenge we've ever faced. All pure fentanyl that's consumed in the United States in a year can
00:47:41fit in the beds of two or three pickup trucks spread out across a 2,000 mile border, unfortunately
00:47:46about two-thirds of it coming right to your state right now. You know, in order to fight this, it's
00:47:51not just a matter of scanners at the border. You need cooperation from Mexico on everything you
00:47:56named, investigators, prosecutors, ports, intelligence, all capital letters, and you cut
00:48:02that off in 90 days and then maybe restart it. You have to restart everything all over again. It's
00:48:07incredibly disruptive. I appreciate that. Now, I have, in my time in public life, both here in
00:48:12Congress and formerly as mayor of Phoenix, Arizona, have been a friend of Mexico, making the case that
00:48:17we need to have a stronger economic unit between U.S., United States, Mexico, Canada, and that's
00:48:24how we're going to win this economic battle with China. As a result, I've been a critic of the
00:48:28recent judicial reforms in Mexico, which I think is a step backwards in terms of promoting U.S.
00:48:34investment in Mexico. INL has helped to train Mexican institutions to build and present strong
00:48:42legal cases against organized crime. Mexico's forensic labs and prisons are accredited to
00:48:47reach higher standards for forensic testing due to INL support. U.S. officials helped to train
00:48:52police investigators in Mexico City, reducing violent crime in Mexico City by 58 percent in
00:48:58partnership with now President Chainbaum, and INL support helped Mexico law schools update their
00:49:03curriculums to include Mexico's criminal law reform. These offices that trained police and
00:49:09prosecutors and relied on INL funds are now cut drastically by the dismantling of foreign
00:49:16assistance. Another question from Mr. Isaacson. You hosted a podcast last October about Mexico's
00:49:20constitutional reforms, where you opened by saying, quote, the promise to be serious setbacks
00:49:25and the struggle to hold powerful people and institutions accountable for corruption. How do
00:49:31Mexico's constitutional changes, including reorganization of National Guard and judicial
00:49:35reforms, concern you? Maybe you could go on a little bit. For those who haven't listened to
00:49:39your podcast, go on a little bit more about the threat of the constitutional reforms. Sure, and I
00:49:43hope you call in my colleague who runs our Mexico program, Stephanie Brewer, who really knows this
00:49:46stuff. But Mexico's, they just changed their judiciary so that judges are now popularly elected,
00:49:52like people are going to come and vote for a long list of judges. A justice system, especially when
00:49:56they're working on these very complicated, very dangerous cases against these networks of
00:50:00corruption and powerful people who are willing to kill them, need to be free of political pressures
00:50:05and need to be free, need to be autonomous. And this just dealt a strong blow to that, as well
00:50:10as substituting police and detectives and people who are in the community with National Guard
00:50:15troops who rotate in and out. That also makes it harder to actually, you can find crimes when
00:50:20they're happening, but you can't really get to the root of who is behind them. Thank you very much.
00:50:24Madam Chair, I yield back. Thank you. I now recognize Representative Shreve of the state of Arizona.
00:50:36Representative Shreve, Madam Chairwoman, is from the state of Indiana and is happy to be here.
00:50:41I'm sorry. I'm from the state of Indiana. I'm sorry.
00:50:52Madam Chair, we agree. I thank the witnesses for being here.
00:50:58And I have a question that, in fairness, I'll address to Ms. Kenney because I wasn't
00:51:08in the room to hear the testimony from our other witnesses. But I appreciate all of you
00:51:14sharing time and expertise with us. Of course, INL defines its core mission as keeping America
00:51:22safe by countering crime, illegal drugs, and instability abroad. We recognize that America
00:51:30is vulnerable to external threats, certainly including narcotics. We recognize that on
00:51:36both sides of the aisle. In my view, the Trump administration is demonstrably making headway
00:51:44in securing our border and curbing some of the trafficking that was making its way up I-65 and
00:51:52across I-70 in Indiana, particularly on the fentanyl trafficking. We are seeing headway,
00:51:58palpably, within the district that I represent. The most pressing drug-related threats
00:52:06in my part of the country would stem from the trafficking efforts of the Sinaloa cartel
00:52:13and the Jalisco cartel. These organizations, I am informed in part by some of the county
00:52:23sheriffs that I represent, dominate the wholesale supply of illicit opioids, particularly fentanyl
00:52:31and heroin, through my district. The crisis is personal to me. I have
00:52:38friends and constituents who have lost loved ones to fentanyl poisoning,
00:52:46and this must continue to be a bipartisan priority. Mr. Stanton had to step out,
00:52:53but I do think this is a bipartisan priority. Since 2008, INL has overseen some $3 billion
00:53:05in funding for security, counter-narcotics, and rule of law programs in Mexico.
00:53:13And Mr. Isaacson, you talked about the abrupt curtailing of some of that.
00:53:19There were a few GAO reports of late highlighting gaps in INL's metrics and monitoring,
00:53:28raising concerns about the effectiveness of these programs. Certainly, the administration
00:53:33is attuned to those. The GAO report concluded, without fully addressing the key elements
00:53:39for assessing progress, the U.S. government cannot be assured that it is achieving its security
00:53:44goals in Mexico and that its investments at over $3 billion since 2008 are being spent effectively.
00:53:51So, I'll direct my question to the witness that I heard from in her testimony, though invite anyone
00:54:00else that may have expertise to respond. Ms. Kenney, what lessons should INL
00:54:10pull from, take away from the GAO evaluation of its programs in Mexico that can be used to inform
00:54:20our future initiatives, our future investment in this cause? Thank you for this question.
00:54:26We reviewed the effectiveness, the results of the Merida Initiative and the Bicentennial Framework.
00:54:31We did our work sort of at a time period that straddled both of these strategies,
00:54:35and we looked to see what were the results of the $3 billion plus investment that the U.S.
00:54:40had made in Mexico. And what we found is that there were key elements of INL's performance
00:54:46management approach, if you will, that limited our ability to really evaluate its effectiveness.
00:54:51So, in these strategies, both Merida and the framework, the Bicentennial Framework, we found
00:54:56that they had established those top-level goals and objectives, and that they had a number of
00:55:01individual projects and activities that address things like counter-narcotics flows, fentanyl
00:55:05flows, and they're tracking data on the implementation of all of these activities.
00:55:11They had not identified which of these activities were critical, which were the ones that were
00:55:15really critical to being able to assess the effectiveness of these top-line goals.
00:55:19They just hadn't identified the indicators and then monitored to align them to be able to say,
00:55:24this suite of activities is going to demonstrate our progress in achieving this goal.
00:55:29When we talked to the State Department about what were the challenges in being able to complete
00:55:33this, because this went back to the Merida Initiative, which started in 2008, they said that
00:55:38the U.S. government was working with the Mexican government to come up with some shared set of
00:55:43indicators. These strategies are designed to be sort of shared approaches, both for the U.S. and
00:55:48Mexican government to be able to address these shared issues, shared challenges, and that there
00:55:52were some challenges in being able to develop a common set of indicators. And some of the
00:55:57complicating factors were, at the time, new administrations, both in Mexico and the United
00:56:02States. However, we would point out that, given the level of investment and given the continuity
00:56:06of these challenges, it's really important that the State Department figure out what these
00:56:09indicators are, figure out what the suite of activities should be to be able to support those
00:56:15top-line goals and be able to measure and share the effectiveness of those efforts going forward.
00:56:21So that is really our recommendation. Our recommendation should be identified as a
00:56:24priority recommendation for the State Department. Of all of the recommendations that we make,
00:56:29we believe this is one of the most critical ones to be able to really make progress on
00:56:35the individual activities and efforts to be able to address this critical issue between U.S. and
00:56:39Mexico. Ms. Kinney, I appreciate it very much, and my time has expired. Madam Chair, I yield back.
00:56:46Thank you, Representative Shreve of the State of Indiana. I appreciate your time with us,
00:56:52and now I'm going to recognize Representative Jackson of the State of Illinois for five minutes.
00:57:04Thank you, Representative Salazar. Thank you, Ranking Member.
00:57:12Columbia is the regional leader in coordinating the multinational operation
00:57:17Campaign Orion, a naval campaign focused on dismantling the transnational network
00:57:23of drug trafficking and related crimes. During the 13th edition of the Orion Naval Campaign last year,
00:57:31operations in which 125 institutions in 62 countries from Africa, the Americas, Asia, Europe,
00:57:40and for the first time, Oceania participated. Participating forces seized more than 400 tons
00:57:47of drugs thanks to the exchange of intelligence and the culmination of capabilities to counter
00:57:54the illicit trafficking of drugs and other illegal activities linked to narco-trafficking.
00:58:02I must say that was a very diverse network. It had a high level of intelligence being
00:58:11interchanged, and they had shared interests. They had equity amongst all participants.
00:58:18DEI does work, so I don't know where we get off on this tangent that makes no sense to me on
00:58:26diversity is bad. Diversity and equity is in quite a few constitutions around the world.
00:58:32We're going through a temporary period of some insanity to act as if e pluribus unum. Out of
00:58:39many, we are one in the Americas. I'd like to let it be for the record that two-thirds of our
00:58:44hemisphere and population is not in the United States, and we are one contiguous land mass.
00:58:50The operations reached record figures in narcotics seized,
00:58:55reducing the supply worldwide and dealing significant blows to the finances of multi-crime
00:59:00organizations, preventing them from receiving more than $18.7 billion, according to the Colombian
00:59:07military forces. Authorities seized a total of 402 tons of solid chemical precursors and 1.6
00:59:16million liters of liquid chemical precursors and destroyed 302 illegal infrastructures used for the
00:59:23extraction and processing of drugs. The Colombian Navy reported 112 boats seized and 211 vehicles,
00:59:32and on and on. Since this program started about seven years ago, with only narco-trafficking,
00:59:38the Orion 12 have included other crimes that are present in the maritime land domain as well,
00:59:45such as arms and migrant smuggling, trafficking, money laundering, and the like. The 13 addition
00:59:53of the Orion naval campaigns have consolidated it as the most important and influential
00:59:59international cooperation strategy in the global fight against narco-trafficking,
01:00:04and has also managed to transcend in time, thanks to innovation and rapid adaptation,
01:00:10to respond to this highly complex and changing phenomenon. Once again, I want to thank each of
01:00:15you for coming, and this question will go to you, Mr. Isaacson, and thank you for your outstanding
01:00:20service as well. What is the impact of aid cuts in this program, such as Orion naval campaigns?
01:00:28Well, the main impact has been that the Colombian National Police, and it's part of the effort to
01:00:33interdict cocaine, has had some real disruptions. Even many of their Blackhawk helicopters were
01:00:38grounded for a while because they didn't have money for maintenance or fuel. Trainings have
01:00:43been disrupted, and just the intelligence that you need in order to maintain this level of
01:00:49interdictions has been disrupted. I don't know for how long, because I just don't have the
01:00:53information, for how long it's been cut off and whether decisions have been made to give waivers,
01:00:57and if so, is that going to mean a few blank months this year, where the level of interdiction dips,
01:01:03which has been at record levels, or whether they're going to be able to recover that, but
01:01:07we'll find out soon. So do you think that the money that might have been saved theoretically
01:01:13will come back to be a penny saved and a dollar foolish? I think so, because it's just, it's not
01:01:23good government practice to stop all of your programs for 90 days and then just selectively
01:01:28restart them. Your partners just don't work like that, and it may cost them months and months,
01:01:34if not a couple of years, to really recover from that, even if they do get to keep the level of
01:01:39funding they had before. Well, thanks so much. So you're saying the whiplash, the backlash,
01:01:43the frenetic, the hectic pace, this capitulation, this erratic behavior is bad for our long-term
01:01:51goal of reducing the drug trafficking in our region? It was definitely good for the organized
01:01:55crime groups who wanted to evade the police and the Navy and others in Columbia. I yield back.
01:02:01Thank you so much. Thank you, Representative Jackson. And now I'm going to recognize
01:02:07Representative Titus of the state of Nevada for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chairman,
01:02:12Mr. Ranking Member. Mr. Isakson, would you go over this for me, just again, very simply?
01:02:20What was the justification given by President Trump for levying tariffs against Mexico?
01:02:27The main justification was that Mexico wasn't cooperating enough in stopping fentanyl
01:02:31coming to the United States. Right. And now that the President is threatening a
01:02:36trade war with Mexico, has that compelled greater cooperation from their authorities on this issue?
01:02:42No, I guess if Mexico thinks they can stop the tariffs, then they will come up with some seizures
01:02:46and they'll bomb some labs and things like that. But it won't help with things like complex
01:02:51investigations and intelligence, no. So it really hasn't moved that at all? No, and if the tariffs
01:02:56happen, then what incentive does Mexico have once their economy is cratering to keep cooperating?
01:03:01Yeah, and that's part of the problem. Will they happen? Will they not? On what products? How much?
01:03:07What percent? That sort of thing. Well, will cuts to the INL programs in Mexico help or hurt our
01:03:13ability to stem the flow of fentanyl into the country? Yeah, I mean, I was saying this before,
01:03:18you can't just have better scanners at the border and hope you've, or bomb a few labs.
01:03:22It costs $60,000 to start a new fentanyl lab. You need a lot of the things that INL does,
01:03:28which is building intelligence, building poor security programs, canine, courts, all this other
01:03:32stuff so that you can stop the whole network that's doing this, rather than just try to stop
01:03:36it at a scanner on the border. And if you disrupt INL programs, you're disrupting that very, very,
01:03:42important ingredient in the fight. So it's working counter to what you claim is the purpose of
01:03:48the tariffs and other dealings with Mexico. Threatening your partners, really taking away
01:03:53their incentive to cooperate while, you know, freezing and restarting and halting and putting
01:03:58waivers and confusing the programs that you are running is obviously not going to be helpful.
01:04:03It's going to be helpful maybe to the people producing fentanyl. So in the meantime, in addition
01:04:08to the tariffs, can you talk about the effect of the Trump administration's prioritizing
01:04:14arbitrary mass deportations over things like root causes of terrorism, transnational crime,
01:04:20drug trafficking, human trafficking, weapons trafficking, etc.?
01:04:24Yeah, I mean the Trump administration is trying to do mass deportation with the existing people
01:04:29they have, right? Like 5,500 ICE enforcement removal officers, which means where are they
01:04:33going to get the manpower? They're taking it from DEA, they're taking it from DOJ,
01:04:38everything, Bureau of Prisons, HSI, Human Security Investigations. These are the agencies that are
01:04:43supposed to be working on these drug cases, as well as cases, everything from child pornography
01:04:47to human trafficking. They're all being devoted to rounding up migrants now, often even migrants
01:04:53without criminal records. And it's a really, really disastrous diversion of our law enforcement
01:04:58resources.
01:04:59So could you sum that up by saying that it's made us less safe, not more safe?
01:05:04Yeah, I mean if you, I would put it this way, if you are a fentanyl trafficker or a child
01:05:11pornographer or something like that, you are feeling less pressure from federal law enforcement
01:05:15since January 20th because of this diversion of resources.
01:05:19Because you know they're focused somewhere else and you can get away perhaps with this.
01:05:22Yeah, they're focusing on migrants and if you're not in the migrant smuggling business,
01:05:26you have less to worry about.
01:05:28Yeah, so if we're going to impose tariffs on Mexico, that's going to be a tax on
01:05:33families in my district. People in Nevada are going to pay more out of pocket. If you
01:05:38don't have money in your pocket, you can't go on holiday. People won't be coming to Las Vegas
01:05:43for a holiday. Certainly if you're from Canada or Mexico, you're not going to be as likely to
01:05:49come as a tourist and that's our main source of tourism. And at the same time, what we're
01:05:54doing is undercutting our response to the flow of fentanyl. Does that pretty much summarize
01:06:00the problem?
01:06:01Yeah, the arguments against tariffs are pretty strong economically here at home.
01:06:09But also yeah, if you are a Mexican government official, even one who really believes in this
01:06:14fight, what's your incentive to cooperate if you're being punished without even any clear
01:06:18benchmarks or guidelines about how to stop the punishment? And the same goes for fentanyl as
01:06:23well as working against migrant smuggling through Mexico too. What's going to push you to work
01:06:29harder to do the Americans a favor and work harder together on this if you already have a
01:06:3525% tariff on all of your goods?
01:06:38Well, thank you. I yield back.
01:06:41Thank you, Representative Titus. And now we are going to start a second round of questioning.
01:06:48Not too long. And I'm going to recognize myself for five minutes.
01:06:53We all agreed that we want to revamp and make INL a better agency. We all agree with that.
01:07:01And I just wanted to tell my respected ranking member that what the Trump administration is
01:07:11doing is trying to cut waste on important programs like INL. Because INL funded hip-hop
01:07:20classes in Guatemala. I go back to things that they should not be doing. We all agree that we
01:07:25have to cooperate with Mexico and that we have to help the Guatemalan police force and El Salvador.
01:07:31And by the way, one of the things I also wanted to, and I want to talk to three of you is I'm
01:07:35not going to just hone in on Mr. Isakson. We decertified El Salvador, INL decertified El
01:07:43Salvador as a partner, which led to the cuts in funds. These are the things that I don't understand.
01:07:49Why? Because you think that Bukele may not be ideologically aligned with the State Department.
01:07:55Why are you going to do that? And the same thing with Guatemala. I'm just stating what I think
01:08:02it's common sense. Right now in Latin America, projects that prove to be effective are back
01:08:09online. For instance, targeting systems in Mexico and Peru that provide intelligence
01:08:13on foreign passengers and cargo. Dogs in Costa Rica. All right. So my question to Mrs. Kenny,
01:08:21since you are an impartial force in this hearing, tell me in very simple terms for those people who
01:08:29are at home that do not want to spend taxpayers' money in things that are futile, like hip-hop
01:08:36classes in Guatemala, in which way that $2 billion that we give INL every year, where do you think
01:08:45should be spent? Give it to me in 30 seconds, like a good television soundbite. So people back at
01:08:52home will say, okay, INL should be back on track. Tell me. So based on our review of the INL
01:08:59programs, what we have found is that there are some consistent patterns in terms of implementation.
01:09:05GAO would not identify the policy choices that INL should make, but we are happy to talk to you
01:09:10about the effectiveness of the implementation. And what we have found consistently is that there are
01:09:16opportunities to improve performance management, ensuring that the activities that you are funding
01:09:21are meeting your strategic goals. We saw it in Mexico. We saw it in firearms trafficking.
01:09:25We saw it in efforts in the Caribbean. Making sure that the specific activities that you're
01:09:29funding are linking up and actually helping you achieve your goal. Why do you think that
01:09:34happened? So what you're telling me basically is that I am going to do this, but I'm not sure if
01:09:37it's being effective or not, but I'm going to put the money behind it anyway. Is that what you're
01:09:41telling me? So why do you think that happened and how can that be changed? Why did it happen?
01:09:50Well, I think our recommendation is that the State Department figure out how to create that
01:09:55alignment. That these activities should be funded to the overall strategic goals. I think in Mexico,
01:10:02what we found, what we heard, is that there was some effort to coordinate with the Mexican
01:10:08government, which is a good idea. However, we had been funding the Merit Initiative since 2008 and
01:10:12the administrations were going to change, so that was something that needed to be done. I think
01:10:16when we looked at firearms trafficking, we found similar programs or similar issues. We found that
01:10:21everyone would tell us that firearms trafficking in the Caribbean, in Central America, in Mexico,
01:10:25that these were important U.S. goals, but when we asked about where the metrics were, how they
01:10:29were measuring effectiveness, it didn't show up. They didn't have firearms
01:10:33trafficking as one of their performance measures, so they weren't able to track it and demonstrate
01:10:37progress. It didn't show up in their strategies. So it's just important that whatever it is you
01:10:41decide your strategy, whatever your goal is, you need to be sure that your activities are aligned
01:10:46with it and that you're able to track and align those up to be sure that you're achieving the
01:10:50goals that you want to achieve. I'm sure the State Department is listening to you.
01:10:54Now, let me ask you, let's go to Mexico and maybe we can talk to Mr. Fernandez or Mr. Isaacson.
01:11:01Mexico is a very important ally. It's our next door neighbor. We've got to work with them because
01:11:07no one is going to move, right? So we're going to stay where we are and so are they.
01:11:12I remember that under AMLO, Mexico, President Trump had a very good relationship with President
01:11:20AMLO, who had a completely different ideology than President Trump, and that AMLO sent 37,000
01:11:26troops to the southern borders with Guatemala. That worked very well. All of a sudden,
01:11:31they cooperated. So why did that stop and what incentives are we giving now Shane Baum,
01:11:40who comes from that same Morena party? I hear that relationships are good between both governments,
01:11:48so what can they really do and in which way we could help them do it and do they have the
01:11:55political willingness to receive money from the United States that we know that, you know,
01:11:59it's like we are neighbors, but we are not necessarily love each other, but we got to
01:12:03live with each other, correct? Am I right in my assessment? We start with you, Mr. Fernandez.
01:12:09What can we do? Yeah, I think it's important to your question about whether they will receive
01:12:15that assistance. I think that goes to the core of the issue. Will they receive the assistance?
01:12:21They've have rejected a significant amount. Why have they rejected? I think because there are
01:12:28issues with corruption. There's issues with nationalism as well. And I mean, we tried,
01:12:34I think, very clearly under the Biden administration to not pressure and do a
01:12:42positive engagement as was alluded to by my colleague here, but obviously didn't result
01:12:49in anything substantive as far as countering the fentanyl threat. It only expanded more greatly.
01:12:55But explain to me simply what happened during those four years once, why so much fentanyl was
01:13:03able to come through? What did the Mexican government should have done that didn't do?
01:13:08And what can they do now under Shane Baum? Simple. What happened over the past four years
01:13:13is we stopped pressuring them. Stopped pressuring them. Yeah. And that's what pressures we should
01:13:18have. Economic pressure, I think, is certainly the most potent that we have in the bilateral
01:13:25relationship with trade and the USMCA. Stop right there. You see, Mr. Isakson, so then he's that
01:13:30I agree that that tariffs are bad for our constituents. I get it. But then what other
01:13:36tool do we have as a country to send the message to our neighbors that we need help because we
01:13:43don't want any more American kids dying? Prosecutorial cooperation, intelligence
01:13:47cooperation. From 2023 to 2024, there was a 22 percent decrease in fentanyl seizures at the
01:13:53border. So far this year, it's down another 23 percent. Less seems to be being produced in Mexico,
01:13:59I think because of better cooperation. This may be premature, but there's no one's declaring
01:14:04victory. But there has actually been progress in the last two years. That's very little,
01:14:08very little progress. We had 100,000 kids dying every year. And deaths, thank goodness, are down
01:14:13about 30 percent. And the concussion and the chemicals are put together in Mexico. Yeah,
01:14:18I agree. Right. And we just passed legislation that the Congress voted for where we are giving
01:14:23money so we can destroy those precursors before they get composed into the little pill and our
01:14:29kids die. So I'm saying what I'm trying to look at is political. Do we have political willingness?
01:14:35Shane Baum, does she have political willingness to really work with us? We want to work with her.
01:14:40I think Shane Baum does. I'd be worried about people at the state level in Mexico. I'd be
01:14:45worried about corrupt military and police people. So she has her own swamp. Yeah, she does have a
01:14:51swamp that she has to clean up, as does their judicial system. And INL can help.
01:14:56All right. Thank you. Yield back. Now I recognize Ranking Member Castro
01:15:01from the wonderful state of Texas for five minutes.
01:15:14There you go. All right. All right. With respect to effective and serious and thoughtful
01:15:24cutting of waste, fraud, and abuse in government, I don't think it's going to be carried out by this
01:15:31DOJ committee that is being led by folks who have absolutely no expertise in this area.
01:15:41By 22-year-olds and 20-year-olds with the nickname of big balls,
01:15:47they're not going to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish here.
01:15:51They have no background in any of this, hardly any life experience, quite honestly.
01:15:57And more than that, they're keeping all of their work secretive.
01:16:01In fact, Elon Musk, as I recall, threatened the press that he would file suit or said that it
01:16:07was illegal if they just identified who these people were that are making these massive decisions
01:16:13about how our government operates. And that's not fair to the American people.
01:16:19It's not fair to American taxpayers to have a secret group in charge of what's going on
01:16:25in government that won't show its face at the United States Capitol. And even more than that,
01:16:32a majority party in Congress that isn't even asking them to show up,
01:16:37isn't even demanding that they show up and account for the work that they're doing.
01:16:42That's where we are right now.
01:16:45I hope that everybody in the full committee of this dais, when we have our full committee
01:16:50meetings, will join me and others in asking Elon Musk and those responsible for cuts to INL,
01:16:59cuts at the State Department, USAID, to come here and present to us their work.
01:17:05I mean, we can't even get a clear answer of what percent of INL, for example, is being cut.
01:17:09And that applies to other agencies and bureaus as well. So why doesn't this full committee ask
01:17:16Elon Musk to come and sit in these chairs, as our three witnesses have today,
01:17:21and explain the cuts that have been made and why they've been made?
01:17:26The one person that we had come, as I recall, Pete Morocco, whose job title has now changed,
01:17:33whose job title has now changed, he came and I don't know who insisted, I don't know if the
01:17:40committee insisted or he and his people insisted that it not be a public hearing, that it be a
01:17:46closed door private briefing. And instead of having five minutes to ask questions, we had like two or
01:17:51three minutes to ask questions. It's just bizarre. This is the United States government. And we're
01:17:58running our country right now. The country's being run like these countries that we've been
01:18:03critiquing for decades and decades by people who are doing secretive things, not transparent.
01:18:12And so, look, I agree that, you know, that's why you have a GAO. That's why you have Inspectors
01:18:18General. You know, and could we do more than that? Yeah, I think that we could do more than that.
01:18:22I think we should do more than that. And we do need to make adjustments because things do get
01:18:27stale and, you know, and need to change. And Maria, you and I, I was your Democratic co-lead on
01:18:33that fentanyl bill on precursors. I thought that was a good piece of legislation. And, you know,
01:18:40remember, I've been presented now I think at least twice where we've been told in this committee and
01:18:49then in my other committee in unclassified information that, you know, 70 to 90 percent of
01:18:57the precursors or the original source material for fentanyl comes to the United States first
01:19:03and then goes over to Mexico and then ends up coming back.
01:19:08So these are serious problems, but they demand serious approaches and they demand people with
01:19:13expertise who actually know what they're doing. You know, really nothing against people in their
01:19:18early 20s. I wish I was still in my early 20s, but, you know, the people that have been put in
01:19:25charge of overseeing this have absolutely no background or no expertise to do it.
01:19:32With that, I yield back, Chairwoman. Thank you, Ranking Member. And I thank
01:19:36the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. The members
01:19:41of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses, and we will ask
01:19:45you to respond to these in writing pursuant to committee rules. All members may have five days
01:19:50to submit statements, questions, and other materials for the record subject to the length
01:19:56limitations. Without objections, this committee stands adjourned. And once again, thank you
01:20:00for your participation.