The big talking point of this episode of To The Point is BJP 'Saugat-e-Modi' programme, which it launched on Tuesday to reach out to the members of Muslim and minority communities.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhary. We'll get you our two
00:04big debates this evening. But first up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:11Supreme Court-appointed in-house committee begins inquiry, visits Delhi High Court Judge
00:16Yashwant Verma's residence, panel inspects premises.
00:24Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister Rekhnath Shinde claims conspiracy behind Kamrajjo Kraus
00:29as well-thought-out plot behind controversy. Kamra Moxena Youth Wing Chief seeks one-week
00:35time to appear before cops.
00:38While in Tamil Nadu, YouTuber who exposed alleged sanitation scam is targeted.
00:47Savukku Shankar's home ransacked, sewage thrown inside. YouTuber accuses Tamil Nadu
00:54Congress chief of orchestrating the attack.
01:02Big revelation in Starlet smuggling scandal. Anti-smuggling agencies has accused actor
01:07Rania routed gold money through Hawala channels.
01:13Delhi government's big women outreach and budget announces 50-100 crore for women schemes.
01:18Big allocation in Delhi budget for Swachh Yamuna and pollution.
01:28BJP now demands a ban on meat and liquor shops in Delhi and Jammu and Kashmir during Navratri,
01:33BJP's Muslim outreach.
02:00BJP to distribute gift hampers, 32 lakh Muslim families identified.
02:30Opposition foxed and amused.
03:00Saffron search for Muslim vote? Sabka Saath or appeasement? Top story on To The Point
03:21this evening.
03:22Alright, so many suggest that all of this, the Saugate Modi, the small gift hampers which
03:31comprise of a salwar suit for the woman head of the family, a sevai and a few more things
03:38and we'll break it down for what exactly they are. It's all planned with an eye on the Bihar
03:42elections. Why on Bihar elections viewers? Let's take you through that. Because 2011
03:47census, as per that and mind you, Bihar is going to vote in the next 4 months from now.
03:54So as per the 2011 census, 17% of Bihar's population is Muslim. Let's take you now on
04:00how the 17% population voted. 12% of Muslims voted for the NDA in 2024 Lok Sabha elections.
04:10Now this is all across the country where it comes down to the 2020 assembly elections
04:17in Bihar, only 5% Muslims voted for the NDA in 2020 Bihar polls. There is a sense that
04:25BJP allies are fearing alienating the 17% Muslim votes. Why I say that viewers is that
04:33the LJP, Chirag Paswan, the JDU, Nitish Kumar has a sizeable Muslim vote bank and some of
04:42them as per our sources feel that outwardly polarizing atmosphere that is currently
04:48prevailing might possibly alienate that possible vote bank. These visuals are of the Iftar party,
04:55you can see BJP leaders from Bihar with them, with him you can see Chirag Paswan,
05:01you have Samrat Chaudhary and you have Nitish Kumar. So it paints that picture right on your
05:05television screen on why possibly this saugat is going in the times of Bihar elections. These
05:11visuals only came in as early as yesterday evening and Iftar party being hosted here
05:17by Chirag Paswan in Bihar Patna. So you have Chirag Paswan, you have the Chief Minister of
05:24Bihar Nitish Kumar who is both allies of the BJP sitting right next to them is the Deputy Chief
05:31Minister of Bihar Samrat Chaudhary. So that possibly with an eye on Bihar election, it's
05:37a question there. Now, in terms of many would suggest that the BJP has always especially when
05:44it comes down to schemes to handouts has never quite discriminated. The Modi government's Muslim
05:52Outreach Sikho Aur Kamao scheme for skill development of minorities, Nai Roshni scheme
05:58for leadership development of minority women, Nai Manzil integrated education livelihoods,
06:03lots of schemes that we're going to play out all the list of schemes, which the Modi government
06:08has floated where the minority Muslims minority is concerned. And in which you can also throw
06:14because the government lauds itself for abolishing triple talaq and all of these the government's
06:22calls it as an achievement and offerings for the minority community. However, you know,
06:28this discussion will not be complete if we don't actually get into what many also think
06:34is the minority doublespeak of the BJP. You know, one thing that always is underlined till now,
06:42we haven't seen any Muslim face in Prime Minister Modi's cabinet. This new cabinet of the BJP has
06:50no Muslim face again, no Muslim given a ticket to fight the 2024 Lok Sabha polls. Hundreds of
06:57tickets were given viewers and not a single Muslim was given a ticket to fight these elections,
07:02which is Lok Sabha 2024. What is perceived is selective bulldozer action, mostly against
07:09Muslims, anti Muslim political rhetoric by many leaders from calling them termites,
07:13kapron se pehchan sakte hain to lots of other commentary, political commentary made by top
07:21BJP political leaders. So all of that comes into the possibility of a doublespeak by the
07:26BJP when it comes down to sabka saath, sabka vikas. Now at the back of it, of course,
07:31the questions that we ask this evening before I go across to the panel. The first question,
07:36of course, are BJP Muslim outreach with an eye on Bihar elections? The other question,
07:42sabka saath or plain appeasement politics? Because now you have voices from the Congress
07:48and the Samajwadi party coming out, even the RJD saying that, what is all of this?
07:53Because the BJP has never thought of the minorities. Suddenly before Bihar elections,
07:57they're thinking of the minorities. It's just plain appeasement. Something that they are
08:01always accused of. The other question that we ask, can outreach eclipse the anti Muslim rhetoric,
08:07which many suggest that the BJP has followed off late. We've seen how Aurangzeb has been
08:13used as a trope or somewhere down the line, used to attack the Muslim community. Or we've seen the
08:21bulldozers. We've seen what happened during Holi. Lastly, an outreach attempt to stem the peaking
08:27polarization in the country that we can see. Well, there's another question and we'll take
08:31it directly to our BJP panelists. But before I introduce our panel viewers, we're going to give
08:35in two minutes. We have a counter which is going to play at the back of each and every panelist.
08:39The minute that two minutes is over, then their fader is automatically going to go down. So you
08:45know, every time you have a spokesperson who says that the anchor is given more time to X, Y and Z,
08:49that's not my domain anymore. Let me introduce our panelists to our viewers. Mumtaz Patel,
08:55National Spokesperson, Congress. Shehzad Poonawalla, National Spokesperson, BJP. Ashutosh,
09:00Political Analyst. Rajat Sethi, Political Analyst. I'd like to begin with Shehzad. And the other
09:05question that can be posed and is being posed is who's really paying for this sogaat?
09:08First of all, Preeti, I hate to fact check you because you said that the BJP did not give a
09:16single ticket to a Muslim in the Lok Sabha elections. You're factually wrong. We did
09:19actually give M Abdul Samad the ticket in the Lok Sabha elections in Kerala. As far as the Muslim
09:24face is concerned, if not having a Muslim, please wait for my turn to get over. If not having a
09:29Muslim face means that we are anti-Muslim, then 7, 8 and 9pm are the prime time slots of the
09:35Aaj Tak India Today group. Please tell me which Muslim anchors at 7, 8 or 9? Is that the meaning
09:39that the India Today group is against Muslims? It's not. And you said that this is all for
09:43elections. By the way, let me tell you that the hajj quota was one lakh. It has now been
09:47increased to two lakhs. The hajj without Mehram was never permitted before. Now it is permitted.
09:51We have done away with the triple talaq law. The Muslim girl dropout rate was 70%. It's down to
09:5530%. AMU scholarships have been doubled. The number of scholarships given by the UPA, the
09:59more that the scholarships have been given during the NDA. 5000 crore budget has been given for
10:04minority affairs. By the way, APJ Abdul Kalam was made president by the Bharatiya Janata Party.
10:08By the way, Bharat Ratna was given to Ustad Bismillah Khan by the Bharatiya Janata Party.
10:11By the way, Andaman Nikobar Island, one of the islands was named after Veer Abdul Hamid,
10:15is this anti-Muslim? Padma Awards just this year. Let me tell you, Farooq Ahmed Mir,
10:19Sheen Nizam, Saher Anur Hassan, Begum Baitul, people that Congress never recognised. All of
10:24this was just in this year, the Padma Awards. Was this for elections? By the way, all that the
10:28Congress party has done is saugate dange and saugate gareebi. Jalgaon, Delhi, Ahmedabad,
10:33Diwandi, Bhagalpur, Hashimpura, Mumbai, Meerut, Malyana, all of these rites where thousands of
10:37Muslims were actually killed. And therefore I tell my good friend Mumtaz, ki mili saugate Modi,
10:43dukhi hai saare virodi, inka kaam hai keval propaganda aur bhadkane ki yeh jo rajneeti.
10:48I would ask Mumtaz that just compare the state of the affairs of Muslims in Gujarat
10:53and Muslims in Bengal. Bengal BJP has never ruled on poverty, on per capita income,
10:58on health indices, on participation in government jobs. Every place the Gujarati Muslim is far ahead
11:03than the Bengali Muslim. That was not done for elections. Wo kehte hai na,
11:06jaa ki rahi bhavna jaisi, prabhu murat dikhe tin tehsi. Because they have only done for elections,
11:10they feel everyone does for elections. We believe in sarva mat and sarva saath,
11:15sabka saath and that's why we have done it. Okay. Shahzad, your time is up. I concede after
11:19on 484 tickets in Kerala, you gave one Muslim a ticket and he was fielded in the state of Kerala.
11:25After 484 that BJP fought. Correct me if I'm wrong there. I want to bring in Mumtaz Patel
11:30into this conversation. Mumtaz Patel, the fact is Shahzad Poonawalla does have a point
11:36that appeasement is something possibly that the Congress has followed. The pendulum swung so far
11:43left in your time and now it's the time for sabka saath and what's happening is sabka saath.
11:52Sabka saath, now you remember after 11 years. Last week you saw some pictures of Mrs. Sonia Gandhi,
11:58Akhilesh Yadavji, all at an iftar table and you had to see the meltdown by the followers of the
12:04Bharatiya Janata Party and Prime Minister Modi that this is appeasement politics. Now I want to
12:09ask what is the meaning for this gesture, Saugadhe Modi? What is the motive behind it? Yes, we spoke
12:15about vote bank politics, keeping Bihar elections in mind. Well, distributing kits, if it brings
12:23you votes, great, good enough. But what about the message of brotherhood and harmony that needs
12:28to percolate down to your followers, your people because on ground this is not what you see. If
12:34you think that this is sabka saath, sabka vikas, where are you going to distribute these kits? What
12:38about the homes of those Muslims that have been bulldozed? What about people who've been lynched?
12:43You know, it's becoming such a huge problem. Islamophobia is real. It is real on the ground
12:50and this is purely because of the kind of language, the kind of attitude, the kind of approach this
12:56government and the supporters have been using towards the minority. When the opposition does
13:01this, you call it minority appeasement. When you distribute free ration, you call it ravery
13:06politics. So my question to the Bharatiya Janata Party is, yes, dera hai, durusta hai, but 11 saal
13:12baad aapko yaad aaya sabka saath, sabka vikas. Now is the time you remember that the minorities
13:17also need to be assimilated into the society, their festivals, their culture should also be
13:24accommodated and what are you going to now answer? Are you going to put out this grand gesture and
13:29then like what you did to the laad ki behen yojana, again say that okay fine, 32 lakh
13:35kits cannot be distributed because it is out of budget. So these are just probably grand plans
13:40and just out of the box thinking for this point of time, just for votes, nothing else. That's all
13:45I can say. I welcome it, I appreciate it, but I'm sorry I don't see the real intent behind this.
13:52All right, Ashutosh, you think that this is mere tokenism or do you think there is real intent?
13:58Because if you actually look at it, it's just not for the Muslim community,
14:01it's for Besakhi. Even on Good Friday, they are going to be handed over, you know, this small
14:05token. See Preeti, this is not even tokenism. This is not even tokenism. This is just a kind
14:13of, what should we call, we should call it a Muslim appeasement or what? This is basically
14:18intended at the Bihar elections and the kind of reaction the Muslims are giving towards the
14:23Janata Dal United and the LJP. So obviously the BJP is a little worried that if the Muslims are
14:29not going to vote for even JDU and the LJP, then obviously the BJP alliance will be in the soup.
14:35If you remember in 2020, the assembly election happened, the difference between the
14:39Mahagadbandhan and NDA was 0.03% despite Narendra Modi and Nitish Kumar being together
14:46on that side. So it's basically to kind of avoid that anything can happen in the election.
14:54See, first of all, we have to understand this, that what is happening around here?
15:00The Prime Minister, which created the entire 2024 election as a referendum on Islamophobia,
15:06he called them infiltrators and all kinds of names. Yogi Adityanath calling that,
15:16if India alliance wins, then there will be Sharia law in this country. Ram Mandir will be demolished.
15:22All kinds of things were used in that election. Election commission, as you know, did nothing.
15:26So now you have come and said, I am the saviour of the Muslims. I will help you out.
15:31And this happened despite two years back, when in Hyderabad, it was decided that the
15:37Pashmanda Muslims will be outreached by the BJP and several delahs were held.
15:43And despite that, this happened in parliament election. So this is nothing. This is only
15:47intended for the election. This is just trying to fool Muslims and Muslims are not so foolish
15:54that they will fall for this. You just take it, take it for this. Even the BJP carder at the
16:00ground will not accept it. I'm telling you this because the reaction from the RSS at the bottom
16:05level is also very, very furious at the moment because I have talked to many of them and they
16:10are not accepting this. All right. Rajat Sethi, you want to weigh in on this? Because the general
16:14perception seems to be, you know, that there is a bit of trouble, at least where the allies in
16:20Bihar are concerned. Yesterday, the optics said it all because that Iftar party, which was hosted
16:26by none other than Chirag Paswan, had both the CM and the deputy sitting, you know, besides them.
16:31On the other hand, now there are murmurs that the Waqf bill might not even come this session,
16:35and that was supposed to be the most contentious bill, that the government might just hold on to
16:39the Waqf bill and wait it out, you know, after the Bihar elections. Do you think it's that or
16:44is it just the larger context? One really doesn't need to read much into it. The BJP's ideology is
16:48very clear. But you keep needing to do this, you know, often in terms of to project that at least
16:54the schemes are for everyone. I think, Preeti ji, there is something which is called common
16:59sense governance. What does common sense say is that you provide governance to all and appeasement
17:06to none. Do not put your communal blinkers on when you are trying to frame your public policies.
17:13That is underlined philosophy that should govern us, that should rule us.
17:17The problem is that if a Karnataka chief minister stands up in the assembly of Karnataka
17:22and tries and bulldozes 5% reservation exclusively on religious lines,
17:27then he's putting his communal blinkers on in order to see public policy directly from those
17:33lenses. That is the problem. If there is no differentiation on religious lines and governance
17:39and the benefits and fruits of development are spread to every section of the society,
17:44we should not read politics into it. This is plain speak governance where every Indian citizen
17:51has a claim to that governance, not something that Manmohan Singh has been saying.
17:55Another thing that I have deep problems with is the way you and Ashutosh ji are trying to
18:00conflate the issue of illegal infiltration in our country to being labeling the entire Muslim
18:07community as termites. Nobody from the BJP, and you can call me out and correct me, has ever said
18:13the Muslim community is termite. These are meant for all kinds of illegal migrants, be it from
18:20any religion. Now let me clarify this and double underline this because this has been, this
18:25narrative has been peddled for far too long. Who was Aurangzeb? A lineage from a Mongol does not
18:31represent all of the Indian Muslims here. He is being called out in an isolated way and he's
18:37being called out for the sole reason that there were atrocities, systemic atrocities against the
18:42Hindu communities for several decades under his rule. This is why he's being called out,
18:48not as a trope for all the Muslims living in our country. The problem is that you try and put
18:54these things, juxtapose these things in a way so that it sounds and looks communal because you are
18:59colored by those narratives. Okay, Rajan Siddhi your time is up. You know it's not about what,
19:05who's colored or who's not. We're going to come, I'm going to circle back to what you just pointed
19:08out because I don't think it's only an Ashutosh or an XYZ who makes that point. It is a point
19:14of perception, it is talked of, therefore it is spoken about. And I don't think that just comes
19:19in from political experts. Having said that, I'm going to give two more minutes to all our panelists.
19:23I'm going to cut across to Shehzad again. Shehzad, two minutes to you to begin with. The question
19:28that I asked, who is paying for it if there is Sogata Modi which is going down to 32 lakh households
19:36in this country? The question is plausible. Is it coming in from the people's exchequer? Taxpayers?
19:43No, absolutely not, Preeti. By the way, this is a party program. So our minority department,
19:49the BJP's minority department is running it and therefore the BJP puts the bill for it. And by
19:54the way, just a few weeks ago, we gave out holy kits. We had celebrated Pongal, we had celebrated
19:59Christmas. You would remember the Snehi Yatra which was discussed ad homonym on your channel
20:04in a very big way. We have celebrated Prakash Parva of all our Sikh gurus also. So this is
20:09something that we do every time. Mumtaz ji just now said that you saw the pictures of Sonia
20:13during Iftar. Of course, we did and we are happy that she's in good health. But Mumtaz ji, we didn't
20:17see Sonia's picture in Mahakub. We did not see Sonia's picture during Holi. And that is the
20:22problem. The problem is you won't celebrate a Pongal, you won't celebrate Holi, you will
20:26celebrate Iftar. Okay, you want to give that messaging, that's up to you. We celebrate
20:30everything. Thirdly, let me come to the more important point and substantive point. Let's,
20:34because Mumtaz, my dearest friend is here from Gujarat. Gujarat, the population of Muslims is 9
20:38or 10%. Their share in public sector jobs is 9-10%. Bengal, the share of Muslims in population
20:44is 25%. The share of Muslims in public sector jobs in Bengal is just 2%. And that answers a lot
20:50of questions that Ashutosh has in his mind. In fact, Rajat made the most relevant point,
20:5480 crore people got ration, 13 crore got toilets, 12 crore got cylinders, 11 crore got
21:00all kinds of other facilities, 25 crores were pulled out of poverty. One instance, Ashutosh
21:04where Mohammed did not get and Mohit got. One instance where say let's Preeti got but
21:11Peerzada did not get. So one instance you proved to me, I will bow down. And lastly,
21:16Preeti ji, see, in the starting you said that zero MPs were given the candidates from BJP.
21:21Then you corrected yourself, that is gracious of you said 1 out of 484. Yes, madam. But ma'am,
21:26you have not answered very humbly. 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, most important timing of India today.
21:32Where is the Muslim anchor of 7, 8 or 9pm in English channel? Is Rajdeep Sardesai anti-Muslim?
21:38Is Preeti anti-Muslim? Is Mr. Rahul Kawal anti-Muslim? If your logic is that I have not
21:44given Muslim face. No, madam. My grandfather chose this country because he said, to hell with Jinnah,
21:50I believe in Nehru, I believe in Gandhi. Manish, time is up. Allow me to go to our
21:54other panelists. You asked me a question on why is it that the top or the 7, 8, 9 or even 10
22:01rather, you know, why do you even need to stop at that, that all four programs or shows on India
22:07today have, do not have a Muslim face. I just would like to say this very different, Shehzad,
22:12because these are just four shows. You, 484, is all I'm saying. And it's not, you know, it's not
22:20an argument. You can keep talking, you can't, we can't hear you. Shehzad, we can't hear you,
22:24you can keep talking, we'll come back to you, right? I want to bring in, so 484 and one ticket,
22:30right? So that was all I was trying to say. I want to bring in Mumtaz into this conversation.
22:34Mumtaz, your two minutes begin now, because somewhere down the line, if you look at it,
22:38Mumtaz, there's really nothing wrong in terms of providing everyone with equal governance. And
22:43that is what the point that Shehzad and Rajat Sethi were trying to make, why communalize something
22:48where there is nothing to see. Absolutely, Preeti. So that's what the constitution calls for equality
22:54and justice for all. But after, like I said, in the beginning, after 11 years, you remember
22:59that you have to appease the Muslims now, or you have to bring this sort of a gift to them now.
23:05Shehzad, Rajat spoke about termites. And you said perception, of course, it's all about perception.
23:11When you have the Prime Minister of the country standing on a podium and talking about Mangal
23:16Sutras being snatched away, you know, your buffalo being given to your neighbour because
23:20they're going to be Muslims. Okay, now what kind of messaging does that say when you have a union
23:24minister saying, you speak about Aurangzeb. Today, if I speak about Aurangzeb, I'm a Muslim,
23:31I am being told to go back to Pakistan. My forefathers have participated in this,
23:37in the freedom struggle. But yet today, my nationality, my integrity, my loyalty is
23:45questioned. And every day I'm told and I'm told to go back to Pakistan because I chose to speak
23:50on a subject like Aurangzeb, where I just told people that your fight is not against Aurangzeb,
23:55your fight is against, your fight is against inflation, your fight is against unemployment,
24:02your fight is for a better future of this country. Okay, you talk about Gujarat, you talk about
24:07Gujarati Muslims. In 2017, the Bidhan Sada election was polarised towards the end by putting out a
24:15message by the Prime Minister himself that if the Congress is brought into power, then there
24:21is a conspiracy in Pakistan to elect my father, Ahmed Patel, as the Chief Minister. Now, this is
24:26what you're trying to message out to the public that you'll have a Muslim Chief Minister.
24:31Where does then your gesture towards equality and Sabka Saad, Sabka Vikas go? Why? If my father,
24:37suppose, was to be the Chief Minister also, just because he's a Muslim, he cannot be. He's been
24:42elected thrice to the Lok Sabha, he's served the country. Why cannot he be the Chief Minister of
24:46Gujarat? Because he's a Muslim. Today, every day, I am meant to answer and I'm meant to justify why
24:54is it that I am allowed to live in this country. Okay, your time's up, Mumtaz. I'm going to come
24:56back to you if we have the time. I want to bring in Ashutosh. Ashutosh, the fact is at a time where,
25:01you know, there was a polarising atmosphere and nobody can really deny that.
25:06This is, this should be looked at in a good way. You know, why second guess,
25:10question it. If there is an attempt to temper down the atmosphere, why not?
25:17Preeti, I'm taking it as in the good way, provided the Prime Minister of the country...
25:23Sir, your two minutes begin now. Go ahead.
25:26If provided the Prime Minister of the country promises to the whole world from now onward,
25:30no BJP leader, small or big, is going to target Muslims. Can he promise that? He will not.
25:37Because that's the core of the BJP ideology. The anti-Muslim is the core of BJP ideology.
25:42The RSS Hindutva is based on the hatred towards Muslims. And I'm just referring to termite and
25:49other things. A few weeks back, Delhi court has observed certain things on the question of giving,
25:58in the case of Kapil Mishra. And I'll just read it. It's very, very clear what the court is saying.
26:05The word Pakistan is very skillfully weaved by the revisionist in his alleged statement to spew
26:10hatred, careless to criminal polarisation that may ensue in the election campaign only to garner
26:17weights. The court has also observed that this is the outcome of politics of divisiveness and
26:22politics of exclusion, which is a threat to the democratic and the plural fabric of the country.
26:27Divide and rule policy of the colonialists are sadly still in practice in India.
26:31This is not my statement. The court also understands in what context Pakistan is used,
26:36in what context the RMJ is used, in what context the Bangladesh is used, and in what context Mr.
26:40Amit Shah has used the word termite. This word termite is directly taken from the Hitler's book
26:47of the internal enemies. Mohan Bhagwat said about it in 2023 in Nantabar.
26:54So I don't, something self-proved, self-proved, self-assertion doesn't need proof. Somebody's
27:01trying to justify that the BJP gave chicken to the Muslims. How many cabinet ministers are there
27:05for the Muslim community in, at the centre and in Lucknow? I just want to know this.
27:11One or zero? So whom are trying to prove that there are certain universal truth about the BJP
27:19and the truth is hate Muslims? Okay. All right. Your time ends now. I want to cut across to
27:25Rajat Sethi. Rajat Sethi, two minutes to you. You know, the questions that you pose, I think it'd
27:30be a little foolhardy, Rajat Sethi, that if you're going to just say that the perception of an
27:35anti-Muslim rhetoric, when it comes down to the BJP is an imagination of political analysts,
27:39you can continue to choose to believe that. But another question, Rajat Sethi, with, at least with
27:44what we're witnessing, do you see the Vakf board bill coming in this session of the parliament?
27:52Well, I'm not the member of parliament, Preeti ji. The committee in charge of looking at it
27:59knows what are the issues, where is the current status, they've tabled it and it's in the hands
28:05of the parliamentarians to take it forward. But let me tell you, categorically, Vakf bill
28:11is trying to correct a historic wrong. The existing form of whatever Vakf stood for
28:18was against natural justice. I don't understand why such a bill, why such an act was in place,
28:27you know, no Supreme Court, no high court looked into this, how patently anti-natural justice this
28:32bill was. And I'm happy that somebody is actually taking the onus to actually look at it, remove all
28:40the problems and issues with it. And all parliamentarians of all parties are coming
28:44together and debating things. It is as absurd a bill as it can get. And I'm very happy as a citizen
28:50of this country that it is being relooked at. If tomorrow, a bill, if you change the religion of a
28:55Hindu parallel of Vakf was created and that gave the rights of Hindu seers to point out at any
29:03property and claim that this belongs to some religious body of Hindu sects, then what will
29:09happen? You would be crying every night on television shows trying to say that this is
29:13against natural justice. The same is with Vakf and I think we have debated ad nauseum on Vakf.
29:18There is absolutely no support of that bill, of that act in its current shape and form. It has to
29:24be corrected, period. Now, let me get back to it. All kinds of illegal migrants of any religion,
29:31including Hindu religion, if they come into the country illegally, are termites,
29:36they're eating away into India's resources and they have to be pinpointedly selected and deported.
29:41This is what Supreme Court also of our country has said. And it was NRC mandated by the Supreme
29:46Court and under the supervision of Supreme Court went ahead and identified people who have illegally
29:52come in 30-40 years back and that was religious agnostic. They identified de-voters.
29:57Okay, your time's up, Rajat. I would like to give all of our panelists one minute each so they can
30:03put in their closing remarks. Shehzad, just before I get you in, let me tell you, India today at the
30:09current time and we are looking for good anchors, so you know, we are open to hiring anyone who
30:14comes in from whatever faith, but we have seven anchors right now and yes, you are right, right
30:19now we do not, India today doesn't have a Muslim face, but our sister concern Ajtak has four and
30:24we are very happy to hire another Muslim face as an anchor. We had one just still two months ago.
30:31So that aside, very different, Shehzad, where you're looking at one ticket to be given,
30:36where 484 candidates. But closing remarks, one minute, Shehzad, that's all everyone gets. Go
30:42ahead, sir. First of all, when Ashutosh says that if we target terrorists, we are targeting Muslims.
30:48Is Afzal a Muslim? When we target Aurangzeb, we are targeting Muslims. Aurangzeb suddenly
30:53becomes Muslim. What about Raz Khan? What about Dara Shikoh? If we target infiltrators,
30:57we are targeting Muslims. Why? Is it agnostic of religion? Where did religion come from in infiltrators?
31:03The point is that when somebody says Sanatan Samad, without any qualification,
31:07that time it is not targeting the Hindus. When they say Hindu, that time it is not targeting
31:11the Hindus, but targeting the terrorists is targeting the Muslims. That is the logic. Secondly,
31:15I would like to tell my sister, Mumtaz, that why you keep speaking about Aurangzeb,
31:19talk about Raz Khan also sometimes. And Preeti, I did not want to put you in a spot. All I'm
31:23saying is that we are not Jinnah's Pakistan, that you need to have a Muslim anchor to address a
31:27Muslim audience. Similarly, we don't need a Muslim minister to address Muslim people.
31:31The people of this country elect an MP who's bound by constitution, whether it is a Hardi Puri,
31:36whether it's a Kiran Raju, or whether it's a Narendra Modi, they work for everybody,
31:40irrespective of their religion. That's the point India today makes, that's the point our party also
31:44makes. We had Syed Akbar-ud-Din represent us in the United Nations. We had Asif Ibrahim represent
31:49us in the IGF. All right, okay. Shehzad, you know, I'm sorry, I wouldn't be able to give you a
31:52rebuttal, but on that benchmark, then we shouldn't be going out and saying that our president is a
31:57tribal face, or we had a Dalit president before. Because representation is huge, and I really
32:03understand your point. Even when you question me, you're free to question me, and you should
32:07question me. So there should definitely be representation, is at least what I agree,
32:11because it was a conversation between you and I. One minute, I want to give to Mumtaz. Mumtaz,
32:15come in closing comments. One minute. Shehzad, I didn't speak about Aurangzeb. I said it is
32:21not important to debate Aurangzeb when there are pressing issues like unemployment, inflation,
32:26and the future of this country. But yet I was told by the Aam Janta to shut up and go to Pakistan,
32:33and help your party destroy the graves of Aurangzeb. That is the first thing. Secondly,
32:38I feel that these kind of gestures, yes, more than welcome. The poor Muslims will definitely
32:43need it. Not just Muslims in any religion, but there is an urgent need for a comprehensive
32:50measure to address communalism, polarisation, this perception, Islamophobia, so that everybody
32:57gets an equal chance. This is not the time to be just playing with these kind of grand gestures.
33:02The message has to trickle down to the bottom, from the Prime Minister to his supporters,
33:07that there should be brotherhood and harmony. That is my only main point that I want to say today.
33:13All right, nine seconds left. You can transfer that to Ashutosh. Ashutosh,
33:17not really. Your one minute begins now. Closing comments, sir, I don't even have,
33:21you know, word edgeways in it as well. Go ahead, make your point. One minute.
33:25See, Preeta, I'll advise you that you should hire Shahzad Poonawalla as an anchor,
33:29because he's an excellent anchor. I had seen him doing anchoring, so he's very good. You
33:33should hire him. Or you suggest to your bosses that they should do the honour.
33:36See, the fact of the matter today is that what is the BJP aspiring for? What is BJP's politics?
33:43We have to understand this. I don't want to go back to the Golwalkar and quote what Golwalkar
33:48has said about the Muslims, or what the Bhagwat has said. The fact is that today,
33:52even the Bhagwat is so much upset with the BJP's politics, that he has to say that
33:58the things are going too far. And it is taken in the direction which can someday might lead to
34:15some historical accident. And that's what the worry is. The fact of the matter is,
34:19if Mr. Narendra Modi has been so honest with the Muslims, he wouldn't have said all kinds
34:24of things. Or termites, or the word used during the parliament election. I'm sorry to say this.
34:30Sir, time is up. Sir, one minute. I want to immediately give it to Rajat,
34:34because I'm really short of time. Rajat, time begins now. Go ahead. Closing comments.
34:37You know, we have spent 30 minutes, but the logical needle hasn't swung. So I really pity
34:44your viewers who would be sitting here. We have tried to clarify, made an alternate point of view,
34:48but still stuck. Termites is equal to Muslims according to Ashutosh Ji. What do I even say
34:52now? Again, I appreciate BJP. BJP knows very well that the way a mindset of the Muslim community
34:59and citizens of our country has been colored by the opposition leaders, they will not be able to
35:02win this battle. But I appreciate their efforts that they are putting in. They are still making
35:07the outreach in the hope that they can win the hearts. They have ensured that the Muslim women
35:12are given the freedom out of the clutches of certain very, very stone age level laws.
35:17That protections have been given. And they believe that possibly the Muslim women will
35:21take the leadership of joining hands and voting for the BJP. At some point, you know, this agenda
35:27of the opposition would be cut short and BJP might be able to make inroads and have electable
35:32members of parliament who belong to Muslim community also.
35:36All right, well, I just hope that happens. Six seconds left. This is really good. Maybe
35:40Shehzad would have wanted that, but we're going to let it go. I appreciate all four of you for
35:43joining us. Thank you there. Sadly, Rajat, the ideological needle is stuck right now. And that
35:48is the reason why we are having this conversation. That's the times that we live in right now. But
35:53let's hope it shifts sooner than later. JCB at work in Nagpur. The machine sent by the city
36:08municipal corporation reached the house of Fahim Khan, the main accused in the last week riots case
36:14Monday morning. The demolition of allegedly illegal construction was carried out under tight
36:20security. Officials, however, appeared to be evasive when asked who issued the notice and when.
36:44Fahim Khan's mother had moved a petition before the Nagpur bench of the Bombay High Court
37:03against bulldozer action. The demolition was over by the time the court took up the matter at 2.30pm.
37:15The crackdown comes after Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis warned of strict measures,
37:40including bulldozer action, against those responsible for the Nagpur riots over Aurangzeb.
38:10High Court has directed the Principal Secretary of Maharashtra and the Nagpur Municipal Commissioner
38:15to respond by April 15th, the next day of hearing on plea filed by Fahim Khan's mother.
38:25With Hrithvik Bhalekar and Yogesh Pandey in Nagpur, Bureau Report, India Today.
38:30All right, so the big questions that we are asking this evening, the Supreme Court's no
38:40bulldozer guideline completely flouted by Maharashtra government, practically
38:46inventing their own rule book, ignoring what the Supreme Court has said. Well,
38:50it's not just the Maharashtra government though viewers, it's happened in the state of Punjab as
38:54well. Secondly, bulldozer bid reflects Devendra Fadnavis' incompetitive Hindutva race. We've seen
39:01a sudden shift in the politics of Maharashtra. Many suggests that could very well be that
39:07Devendra Fadnavis wants to show in his hat as a possible formidable Hindutva figure. Will bulldozer
39:16justice add to the Chief Minister's strong image? Many have also suggested that Devendra Fadnavis
39:23where law and order was concerned, many were alleging that he was weak. Is this a move to
39:30appear stronger? Will bulldozer action add to BJP's anti-Muslim rhetoric? Taking all these
39:37questions to our two panelists, two minutes each, beginning with Sanju Verma, National Spokesperson,
39:41Bharatiya Janata Party, Atul Londe Patil, Spokesperson, Congress. Sanju Verma, the fact is,
39:46it does seem that the Maharashtra government has formulated their own rule book, completely
39:51overriding what the Supreme Court had said, in turn, overriding the constitution. Two minutes,
39:57ma'am. Preeti, let your audience know this, that the Supreme Court verdict, which is being bandied
40:04about by everybody from the opposition, jo khud samvidan ki dhajjiya udate hain, I'm talking of
40:09the likes of Uddhav Thackeray, Rahul Gandhi and Sharad Pawar, aaj woh Bharatiya Janata Party ko
40:14samvidan related certificates baant rahe hain. Let me tell you, the Supreme Court, while giving
40:19that famous bulldozer verdict, which is being quoted by everybody ad nauseum, said that there
40:25are instances when suo moto action can be taken by the executive and the judiciary does not want to
40:32encroach upon the functions of the executive or the legislature. And Article 245, right up till
40:40Article 254, you can ask your research team to do the homework. All these 10 articles clearly say
40:46that there's a clear delineation of past and suo moto past can be exercised by the sitting chief
40:52minister, who in this case, also happens to be the Home Minister. And my second point, Preeti,
40:58is this, that this bulldozer action, I dare say, should have been taken way back in 2020 because
41:06the building's lease expired, the building belonging to the chief perpetrator of Nagpur
41:12riots, Farhim Khan, it expired in August 2020. November 2019 se lekar June 29, 2022 tak for two
41:21and a half years, Uddhav Thackeray was the chief minister. I say, thank God, we have fund levels
41:27today and necessary action, which was two and a half years overdue, was finally brought to fruition
41:34because the building lease had expired, unauthorised construction took place,
41:38flouting Nagpur Municipal Corporation's rule book and also the rule book pertaining to the
41:43Maharashtra Regional Town Planning Act.
41:46To yadi kisi ne samvidhaan ki dhajiya udayi hai, Nagpur Municipal Corporation ki rule book ki dhajiya udayi hai,
41:53it is the erstwhile Uddhav Thackeray dispensation, which caved into radical Islamists like Farhim Khan,
41:59Devendra Fadnavis has only set the tone.
42:01Your time's up, ma'am. Your time's up. Sanju Verma, I want to bring in the Congress spokesperson,
42:06but you know, I'll come back to you, circle back to you on this one question.
42:09One would have believed if you, you said that this was long overdue,
42:13the building was illegal and the NMC decided to tear it down.
42:17But the fact is, ma'am, you just saw the buildup package.
42:19The NMC said, we didn't decide. The police told us.
42:23We went to the police. The police said we never decided.
42:26NMC decided. So who has decided? And how do we know it's illegal?
42:30Number one. Number two, I want to bring in Atul Londe.
42:34You spokesperson of the BJP says that this was an illegal construction.
42:39It should have happened earlier. It just happened now.
42:41It's just timing is only, you know, a coincidence.
42:45Priti, I know as many as 1000 illegal construction, illegal buildings, and out of which
42:53many of are related with the BJP people right at the heart of Nagpur.
42:58The land of agriculture university in the heart of
43:02Nagpur has been occupied illegally by so many people.
43:06I won't name them because they have also legal rights,
43:09constitutional rights to approach the court, to approach the municipal corporation.
43:13One observation of Supreme Court, which I want to put here because all other issues,
43:21those have been already discussed in earlier debate also.
43:25I will just test for legal violation.
43:28The SC laid down a separate test for cases where a demolished property houses an accused,
43:33but also violates municipal laws and illegal construction.
43:36The SC stated that if only one structure is demolished, while similar ones are untouched,
43:42it may suggest the motive is to penalize the accused, not to remove an illegal construction.
43:48The same thing is happening over here.
43:50Why bulldozer actions are being taken against only a particular community
43:53and not against those who are involved in violence also.
43:58The question here is, you are suppressing,
44:00you are terrorizing one community only because you have a power.
44:05It's right.
44:06Yavindra Pradhan is Chief Minister of Maharashtra.
44:09He's also holding the portfolio of Home Minister.
44:11But that does not give him a power of judiciary.
44:13That does not give him a power to justify the things.
44:16That does not give him to deliver a justice as a Home Minister.
44:19It is a duty of judiciary.
44:21And what's the Bombay High Court bench of Nagpur said?
44:26It is, aren't these people are citizens of India?
44:31Are they not citizens of the country?
44:33If you want to do justice, do it with equality.
44:36Who will you call justice?
44:38Who will be subject to the rule book, to the due process of law,
44:40to the established procedure of law.
44:41Okay.
44:42You thought I was scared, I bit the dog and ate it.
44:45Okay.
44:45This is the process.
44:46I don't have the time.
44:48One minute each.
44:49Sanju Verma, I want to bring you back into this conversation.
44:52The reason that the building was illegal that you've given is an afterthought.
44:56The NMC didn't know.
44:57NMC said, police said, we came and broke it.
45:01You know, Preeti, I always say, look at the bigger picture.
45:03Do not miss the woods for the trees.
45:05You know, what did the police commissioner say?
45:07What did the Nagpur Municipal Commissioner say?
45:09I am telling you under the national spokesperson of the BJP,
45:15that the final call is taken by the Chief Minister,
45:18who also happens to be the Home Minister, Devendra Fadnavis,
45:22and rest are misquoted.
45:23I'm reading off what he said.
45:25Whatever damage has happened will be recovered from the rioters.
45:28If they do not pay the money,
45:29their property would be seized and sold for recovery wherever required.
45:34Bulldozers will roll out, but within the ambit of BNSS.
45:38BNSS section 353-1, BNSS section 355-2B,
45:45and BNSS section 356-1-3.
45:49I request Atul Londe to read BNSS.
45:53Don't start quoting the old provisions of IPC,
45:56which is no longer operational.
45:58IPC is outdated.
46:00It stopped being operational since July 2024.
46:03You are still in July 2024.
46:05Today it is March 2025.
46:08And Preeti, my last point is this,
46:09because my one minute is not over.
46:11My one minute is not over.
46:13Quickly.
46:31Okay.
46:31Now, okay.
46:32Mr. Londe, please respond, sir.
46:34I don't have time.
46:35Quickly come in.
46:36Respond.
46:37See, see, see.
46:38Traitors are traitors.
46:39Dangais are dangais.
46:41We don't differentiate on the basis of caste, religion,
46:44or any other parameter.
46:46What this law is saying,
46:47what Supreme Court is saying,
46:49if action is illegally taken by officers,
46:52officers will be punished.
46:53They will be financially penalized.
46:56This is what Bombay bench of Nafru and High Court says
46:59day before yesterday.
47:00The notice was served on 22nd of March,
47:02and the action was taken on the 23rd of March.
47:05When they came to know that the fine family has moved to the court,
47:08they have doubled the personnel
47:10and raised his whole building before two o'clock,
47:13before they got notice from the High Court.
47:17This is not the way Constitution will govern this country.
47:20I'm not, I was never, I was not talking about IPC.
47:23Sandhuji has not listened to me properly.
47:25I am only talking about the article 142 of the Constitution,
47:28according to which Supreme Court has given a guideline.
47:30On that account, we're going to,
47:32okay, I've terribly run out of time.
47:34You know, we should have actually had more time,
47:35so we could have sunk our teeth into,
47:38why is this happening, especially politically?
47:40Is there a reimagination of the image of Devendra Fadnavis?
47:43But we'll do it in the upcoming.