The big focus of this episode of To The Point is on the meeting between Union Minister Amit Shah and AIADMK General Secretary Edappadi K Palaniswami in Delhi on Tuesday, which has sparked speculation of a realignment ahead of next year's Tamil Nadu assembly elections.
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00:00Hello and welcome, you are watching To The Point. I am Preeti Choudhury.
00:04Our top two debates come from the two top political stories this evening.
00:09First up, I am going to take you through the headlines and move on to our debates.
00:14Suspense over AIDMK, BJP potential alliance for 2026 Tamil Nadu battle.
00:20Sources say EPS wants Anna Malai's role cut down.
00:23Tamil Nadu BJP chief says will not get tied in political knots.
00:31Probe into judge cash haul case gathers pace.
00:34Delhi police visits Justice Varma's house after three judge probe panel sought sealing of cash haul site.
00:45Mahadeputy Chief Minister Rekhnath Shinde hits out at Uddhav Sena's as people of Maharashtra know who the real traitor is.
00:52Shinde slams Thackeray for double speak on free speech.
01:00Trouble for comic Kunal Kamra. Privilege motion against him in Mahasembly for derogatory remarks against Shinde.
01:15Crackdown in Mahadev betting app case.
01:28CBI raids ex-Chattisgarh Chief Minister Bhupesh Bager searches in more than 60 locations by probe agency.
01:46Massive row erupts over Mohanlal's Shabri Mala Puja. Influencer slams Mollywood star Mohanlal and Mammootty.
01:58Says Mammootty must reopen, repent for Hindu rituals.
02:01Exactly a year before Tamil Nadu polls 2026, a strategic political move in the offing.
02:20Is the BJP and the AIADMK coming together again?
02:25A late night meeting between Amit Shah and AIADMK General Secretary Palanisamy has sparked speculation of a realignment.
02:55Collusion and unity are two different things.
03:03AIADMK split with the BJP in a bitter public breakup.
03:10The one who scripted it was Annamalai.
03:13Who then touched the AIADMK holy grail by calling Jayalalithaa corrupt.
03:20The other alliance watching from the sidelines.
03:41You must ask this question to BJP.
03:45He was very strong and critical of BJP.
03:49He said strongly that we will never join BJP.
03:53Edapadi wants power, otherwise nobody will respect him.
03:56His party is in doldrums now.
03:58They have surrendered their self-respect before Amit Shah.
04:03And we all know that the media can keep on denying it.
04:07But the truth is that the AIADMK is going to be routed in Tamil Nadu.
04:11Because they are going to merge with the party which is against Tamil Nadu's interest, that is BJP.
04:17The AIADMK is a divided house with OPS, TTV Dhanakaran and Sasi Kala taking claim to Jayalalithaa's legacy.
04:27The Tamil Nadu BJP too is divided.
04:31Importantly over the possibility of an alliance.
04:34Also ideologically this will be the minefield.
04:38The latest flashpoints between delimitation and three language policy.
04:43An uneasy alliance on the cards in Tamil Nadu.
04:47That is our top focus on to the point this evening.
04:53The fact is viewers, for those of us who follow Tamil Nadu politics, BJP and AIADMK are old flames.
05:00Why do we say that?
05:01Let's take you now through the history of this political alliance.
05:05And it dates all the way back to 1998.
05:08AIADMK had joined the Vajpayee government then.
05:11Then of course there was Jayalalithaa at the helm of affairs.
05:14In 1999, Jayalalithaa dumped the BJP government.
05:17And in 1999, AIADMK and Congress joined hands while BJP allied with the DMK.
05:22So it's very interesting in terms of political history.
05:25In 2004, AIADMK and BJP joined hands again.
05:28But failed to deliver in Tamil Nadu.
05:312004, BJP calls off alliance with AIADMK after elections.
05:352014, AIADMK strikes poll deal with BJP for elections.
05:402016, AIADMK patch up after Jayalalithaa's demise.
05:442019, AIADMK and the BJP alliance for general elections.
05:49And two years later, when the state elections come calling,
05:52AIADMK and the BJP fight state elections together.
05:562023, AIADMK calls off alliance with the BJP.
06:00And the reason why this alliance was called off was
06:03none other than the BJP state head Anna Malai
06:08who had called Jayalalithaa, you know practically touching the holy grail.
06:12Calling her corrupt.
06:14And that is when the alliance broke.
06:16And it seems of course 2024, they fought the 2024 general elections.
06:22They fought separately, individually.
06:24And now 2026 elections are coming in.
06:27And in all probability, we will see them coming back together.
06:31So the questions that we ask this evening before we cut across to our guests.
06:34Question 1.
06:35Why is BJP and AIADMK considering a real alliance?
06:39Is it of convenience?
06:41We will delve into that with our political experts.
06:43BJP and AIADMK patch up detrimental to Anna Malai's standing.
06:47Let's hark back with what really went down in 2023, viewers.
06:52The BJP state head did not want this alliance.
06:55He called Jayalalithaa corrupt.
06:58The AIADMK broke off this alliance.
07:00But why is it that they are wanting to come back where the BJP is concerned?
07:05Resources is a big, big draw there.
07:08It's a marriage of convenience.
07:10Temporary is that.
07:11How will AIADMK manage ideological differences?
07:14Because that's going to be big when it comes down to delimitation.
07:17Language policy is already aflame.
07:19What will become of the BJP and the PMK alliance?
07:23BJP, mind you, is an alliance of the PMK.
07:25The PMK has the same political hunting ground as the AIADMK.
07:29Though the PMK did very, very badly in the general elections.
07:33Let's take all these questions together to our political experts this evening.
07:37Joining me, Shekhar Iyer, Senior Journalist.
07:40Sumanth C. Raman, Political Analyst.
07:42A. S. Sudhir, Political Analyst.
07:44Sandeep Shastri, National Coordinator, Lok Niti.
07:47To begin with you, Sandeep Shastri,
07:50how do you look at the latest developments in Delhi,
07:53but the ramifications back in Tamil Nadu?
07:56Preeti, I think the term you used is the most appropriate.
08:00This is a marriage of mutual convenience.
08:03With the assembly elections coming next year,
08:06the Anna DMK sees the need to be having a national party as its partner.
08:12Because they see that as the one way of challenging the DMK.
08:17The BJP also realizes that if it has to gain a bigger foothold in Tamil Nadu,
08:23it would be necessary for them to ally with the main opponent of the DMK.
08:28And given the nature of politics between the DMK and the BJP,
08:32it's important for both the BJP and the Anna DMK to get into this alliance.
08:38Let's also remember in Tamil Nadu politics,
08:40national parties have always done well
08:45when they have allied with a party based in Tamil Nadu.
08:51Though the BJP's vote share may have increased in the Lok Sabha election,
08:56they were not able to win seats.
08:58And therefore, I think the BJP too realizes the need for a local party
09:04strong enough to be its alliance partner to challenge the DMK
09:08and a similar expectation on the part of the Anna DMK.
09:13Shekhar Iyer, so then clearly what the BJP state had envisioned
09:18that the BJP will not be able to progress with the baggage of the likes of AIDMK,
09:23keeping in mind of Anna Malai calling Jai Lalita corrupt at that time,
09:28you know, practically touching the AIDMK holy grail.
09:31All of that is now by the wayside,
09:33especially on how the BJP performed in the Lok Sabha general elections,
09:38where they thought they're going to make big gains, but it really came down to a knot.
09:42Indeed, you know, Preeti, after the Lok Sabha elections,
09:46both the parties, both AIADMK and the BJP have realized that
09:51since they can't do it alone, they have to do it together.
09:55Basically, they have to avoid a split in opposition votes.
09:59But this thing which may appear like a bolt from the blue,
10:02but a lot of things have happened in the last few weeks.
10:05First, there were talks between the new party that has been launched by actor Vijay,
10:10Tamil Vetri Kutchy, and the AIDMK through some interlocutors.
10:14But actor Vijay was not willing to play a second fiddle to the AIDMK,
10:22and then AIDMK led the alliance.
10:25And after that, Mr. Parandeswari had a rethinking that he could not manage alone
10:32because the AIDMK would certainly benefit from the split in the opposition votes.
10:36We're having a problem with your audio. We've lost your audio, Shankar.
10:39We've lost your audio. We're going to come right back.
10:41I want to go across to T.S. Sudhir. We're going to fix his audio till then.
10:44T.S. Sudhir, when you look at it, expected it was going to happen.
10:50But earlier on, this alliance hasn't quite worked.
10:53Why should it work now?
10:55Well, see, if you're talking about some kind of a rapprochement taking place
10:59between the BJP and the AIDMK, it did not happen yesterday, last night.
11:03In fact, on the 3rd of March, Anna Malai was a guest at the wedding of the son of S.P. Velumani,
11:09who is the strongman of the AIDMK in the western part of Tamil Nadu in Coimbatore.
11:14And I think that's where the icebreaker really happened.
11:17Anna Malai, much to everyone's surprise, was greeted rather warmly by the AIDMK bigwigs at that event.
11:23And subsequently, yesterday, Adabadi Parandeswari went and met the Union Home Minister.
11:28So, obviously, some kind of background work has happened because both the AIDMK and the BJP
11:34realized that 2026 will be the battle to fight for.
11:37The AIDMK even more so because they do realize that with the split in the anti-DMK vote,
11:42if it loses, if it fails to come back to power in 2026, it may actually spell big trouble for the party,
11:49which in any case has been reduced to a party of western Tamil Nadu after the last assembly elections.
11:542021, it did not work for the simple reason that there was anti-incumbency against the AIDMK regime
12:01and they lost power.
12:022024, it was a simple case of the split in the anti-DMK vote.
12:07This time also in 2026, that risk is pretty much there because there is the superstar Vijay's party,
12:13new party, which is also threatening to take away part of the youth and the women vote.
12:17But in case the AIDMK and the BJP don't come together, along with other parties like the TMC,
12:23like the PMK, if they don't put together this kind of a multi-star rainbow coalition,
12:30then there is even lesser chance of them coming to power.
12:33At least with this, they will have a fighting chance on paper.
12:36It will come across as a formidable opposition to the DMK-led alliance.
12:41I'll bring in the other panelists, but you speak of this rainbow-type coalition.
12:46PMK and AIDMK, of course, in terms of positioning, it's quite the same.
12:52Similar hunting ground where they're looking at how will this rainbow coalition actually work.
12:56And the second question, Sudhir, that I'd like to ask you is what happens to Anna Malai now?
13:02Because this is practically undermining of Anna Malai.
13:04AIDMK is not going to broker an alliance at the cost of Anna Malai still being where he is.
13:10Well, quickly, the PMK's hunting ground, not exactly the same as AIDMK.
13:15AIDMK is a much bigger party with a much bigger catchment area.
13:18Yes, they have lost a bit of the heft in the southern part of Tamil Nadu
13:21after the exit of leaders like Paneer Selvam and DTV Dhinakaran.
13:25PMK is much more of a veneer belt-dominated party.
13:29Much more of its catchment area is in the northern part of Tamil Nadu.
13:33As far as Anna Malai is concerned, very important question as to how the BJP will deal with it.
13:38Anna Malai's comments against Jayalalitha and to an extent against CNN Anna Durai
13:43were instrumental in the exit of the AIDMK from the NDA.
13:47Now, if the AIDMK is to come back to the NDA fold,
13:51it would obviously put the condition that Anna Malai cannot be at the forefront
13:55of the entire NDA alliance in Tamil Nadu.
13:59The other big problem is that both Anna Malai and Adapadi Pandeswamy
14:04come from the same Gounder community.
14:06And both of them in the sense of their karmabhoomi from the western part of Tamil Nadu
14:11given the fact that Anna Malai contested from the Coimbatore Lok Sabha constituency.
14:15How will the BJP and the AIDMK reconcile that?
14:18It's quite possible that they may form some kind of a coordination committee
14:22with other senior leaders of the BJP also having a say
14:25so as to reduce Anna Malai's importance to the party.
14:28But in the long-term interest of the party,
14:30I don't think the BJP will completely undermine or neutralize Anna Malai's importance
14:34because whatever the BJP is today in Tamil Nadu,
14:37if it is seen as opting away with its weight,
14:39a large part of that credit really goes to Anna Malai.
14:42Shankar Iyer, would you want to weigh in on that?
14:44Because if you look at it, at somewhere you have an Anna Malai
14:50who wanted to pull away, it didn't quite work out.
14:53Now you have AIDMK which is a divided house in Tamil Nadu,
14:57everyone trying to claim or reclaim the legacy of Jai Lalitha.
15:02But the BJP is also a divided house.
15:04You have two very strong leaders, H. Raja in one account and Anna Malai in one account
15:09and H. Raja is the one who seemingly is mooting for this alliance.
15:13Well, Preeti, with the central leadership stepping in,
15:18central BJP leadership stepping in,
15:20the larger goal is to somehow ensure decent numbers for the opposition in Tamil Nadu.
15:27Therefore, it has been made very clear they will have to avoid a split in votes.
15:32In fact, they have been preparing.
15:34Just as Pallavi Swami said, the common enemy is DMK
15:38and I am willing to do anything towards that end to get DMK defeated.
15:44Similarly, Anna Malai made a statement saying that our goal is the removal of DMK.
15:49See, the problem here is DMK has been taken aback by these developments
15:55because DMK thought it was having a cakewalk.
15:58In fact, the allegation made by Anna Malai was that Vector Vijay is a prop-up of the DMK
16:04because after Vijay refused to agree to any seat-sharing arrangement with the ADMK
16:10and even announced they are going to go it alone,
16:13after initially saying that his party is for alliance and for coalition.
16:18And now the things have changed.
16:20You see, this new thing is going to completely, you know, will force DMK to rework its strategy
16:27because as far as problems between Anna Malai and others,
16:30the larger goal here is, you know, they have to work for the 2026 election
16:35and Anna Malai has understood the reality and he will go by what the BJP central leadership wants.
16:42Now, also remember what Pallavi Swami said today.
16:45He says our ideology has not changed, only alliances happened during the time of election
16:50which means there are room for more manoeuvres.
16:53Now, on the DMK-led front side, we need to look because they are trying to woo PMK back into the DMK fold.
17:00If PMK comes in, there is another party which will go, that is the Dalit party, that is Thirumavallabhan's VCK.
17:07So, lot of things are happening there.
17:09But this is the first step towards preventing a split in opposition vote.
17:13If the opposition remains split as it happened in Lok Sabha elections,
17:16DMK will have a walkover and they have already analysed the results of Lok Sabha elections of 2024
17:23and both the sides, both ADNK and DMK have realised that they cannot have a repeat of the same thing.
17:30And one more thing, Paidei Swami's only condition is, don't force OPS and Sashikala and DTV Dedekar on me.
17:38I mean, don't put that pressure because one of the reasons for Paidei Swami to leave ND Alliance
17:43was the pressure that was on him to accommodate these people and there was another problem.
17:48Paidei Swami felt that if he leaves the BJP, let ND Alliance, the minority would automatically transfer to ADNK.
17:55That did not happen in the Lok Sabha elections.
17:57So, lot of lessons have been learnt both by the BJP and by Paidei Swami.
18:01Right.
18:02Okay.
18:03You know, I also want to bring in Suman C Raman into this conversation.
18:06But with what Shekhar Iyer said, Mr. Shastri, and I want to bring you in on that.
18:11Do you agree with that?
18:12You know, we might be, you know, far, far away from Tamil Nadu politics in Delhi and
18:16correct me if I'm wrong because the word here is actually that actor Vijay is the Team B of, you know, the BJP or the AIDMK.
18:25And correct me if I'm wrong there. The second question that I wanted to ask you, Mr. Shastri,
18:29is the big Anna Malai conundrum and the possible split in, say, within H Raja and Anna Malai,
18:36where Tamil Nadu is concerned as well, on the outlook to this alliance.
18:41Preeti, I live in a state next to Tamil Nadu, Karnataka.
18:46So, the ground level understanding of what is in Tamil Nadu, I would share what Shekhar just now told us.
18:54I think both the Anna DMK and the BJP require each other to be able to challenge their principal enemy, the DMK.
19:03And they believe that one way they could do it is to pool their strengths, pool their resources and come together.
19:10Second question. Let's remember this alliance is something which the central leadership of the BJP appears to have blessed.
19:19And both the Anna DMK and the BJP state leadership may have made comments against each other in the past.
19:26And that's quite common. DMK and BJP, when they were an alliance, they made all types of comments at that point of time and later.
19:34So, I think the reality of politics will require you to put away those differences.
19:40And in some way, it's the central leadership of the BJP also trying to sort out issues in the state unit of the BJP.
19:48So, I think let's not read too much into that.
19:51Okay. Sumanthi, Raman, you know, getting you on the show with multiple possibilities now at play.
19:57How are you looking at it? Number one, also, how is AIDMK, if this alliance goes through,
20:01maneuver the ideological minefield where the political ground already being laid by the, you know,
20:07the DMK when it comes down to delimitation and the two-language policy?
20:11Number two, what would be the fallout of it where it comes down to even the local BJP unit?
20:19Yeah, the local BJP unit, with the sole exception perhaps of the state party president,
20:26has got a very good relationship with the AIDMK.
20:29The problem really is now what does the BJP do with the state party president who has been sniping consistently against the AIDMK.
20:37In fact, media reports said that he threatened to resign about a year ago if the alliance was continued with the AIDMK.
20:46So, now the BJP has to take a call on what they are going to, how are they going to handle the situation.
20:51Even yesterday, he did not issue what was a wholehearted welcoming of this.
20:56He said anybody can meet the Home Minister, that is no big deal kind of a statement was made.
21:01So, they have this problem to solve.
21:03The second issue is, it's very surprising, Preeti, that the state unit and the central high command of the BJP have been doubling down on this language issue.
21:14The language issue is where DMK, AIDMK and every regional party in Tamil Nadu is united on the two-language formula.
21:24Why should the BJP now raise this issue?
21:27It is not going to be able to impose it because legally the states are not mandated to accept the education policy at all.
21:35So, that part is still not clear.
21:38Why are they doubling down on this?
21:40Delimitation is not going to happen before 2026.
21:43Everybody knows that election commission says census will have to be completed.
21:46So, there is no, none of these are issues on which the high command should be doubling down in Tamil Nadu.
21:52And yet we see them go hard.
21:54We see Mr. Dharmendra Pradhan go gung-ho in parliament on this issue.
21:58So, that is something which we are not able to understand.
22:01Is this some kind of a double game that the BJP is playing?
22:05They have been playing a double game consistently with the AIDMK.
22:07But a double game, Mr. Raman, to benefit who?
22:10To decimate the AIDMK, the point really is, Preeti, that the BJP and the DMK have got a very good working relationship.
22:21All this stuff in public that, you know, we are fighting with each other and we are coming out with aggressive statements.
22:27Behind the scenes, the DMK is the only opposition government that has got away without being significantly targeted by the agencies.
22:39You know what happened in Delhi, you know what happened in Jharkhand, you know what happened in Bengal, you know what is happening in Karnataka.
22:45So, there is a method to this whole thing.
22:49So, I am not terribly sure that the AIDMK will just be taken in by whatever words come from the BJP high command.
22:56They will need to see action on the ground.
22:59They will need to see the state president told to back off and stop criticizing the AIDMK.
23:05All right, I want to bring in T Sudhir as well, but very quickly, Mr. Raman, how do you see in all of this?
23:10Because, you know, it is all, you know, going to fall in, you know, where all these players, political players are concerned, the role of actor Vijay in all of this.
23:18Look, if Vijay chooses not to be part of this alliance, he gets isolated.
23:23He has already said that the BJP is his ideological enemy and at the state level, the DMK is his political enemy.
23:30Now, clearly, it's going to be very difficult for him to justify an alliance with any party which is already in alliance with the BJP.
23:38But having said that, he then becomes isolated because then the question is between two big alliances when there is a fight,
23:46the third player usually gets squeezed out simply because people will vote for whom you don't want.
23:52So, those who don't want the DMK will tend to gravitate towards this alliance.
23:57So, therefore, it makes a lot of political sense if the AIDMK, BJP, PMK, DMDK, Mr. Vijaykanth's party,
24:06and very importantly, there is an outside possibility of a small regional outfit Tamil Nationalist Party called NTK,
24:13which commands about six to seven percent of the vote. They've always gone alone.
24:18There is now talk that the BJP may somehow be able to rope them in.
24:21If that comes to fruition, then we are looking at a combined that can potentially defeat the DMK alliance in 2026.
24:29All right. You know, I'm going to give all of you just 30 seconds on what you're going to be watching out for over the course of the next six,
24:34seven months as we lead up to elections in 2026 in Tamil Nadu.
24:39Priya Sudhir, would you want to go first?
24:41Well, I think the big challenge if this NDA alliance actually takes place is how do you actually convert the AIDMK,
24:47which, as I said, is being reduced to a Western Tamil Nadu kind of an outfit,
24:51to actually spreading its wings in the southern, more politically important part of Tamil Nadu.
24:56And that will mean some kind of a rapprochement between EPS and OPS, TTV, Dinakaran, the older faction,
25:02all of them political disciples of Jayalalithaa. That will actually dictate the future of AIDMK.
25:07And also EPS is fighting for its own political relevance.
25:11If he loses, if the AIDMK does not manage to come back to power in 2026, it will be pretty much political curtains for the party.
25:18All right. Mr. Shastri, 30 seconds, sir. What are you going to watch out for?
25:22What I'm going to watch out for is how the BJP central leadership gets its house in order in the state.
25:30How does it manage the Annamalai factor and other factors?
25:35And for the ANNA-DNK, I think it's how the ANNA-DNK is able to take advantage of an alliance with the National Party
25:43and allow some of the tensions which possibly could be there with the National Party to language formula
25:50or the limitation to be put on the background and focus on the assembly elections.
25:56These are the two issues which I think will be common.
25:58Mr. Raiyar, would you like to go next? And then we'll close with Mr. Raman.
26:02Well, I think a lot of discussion has happened between this one-to-one between Amit Shah and Pandit Swami.
26:08So the questions we are raising this evening has already been somewhat dictated.
26:13That's the information I get. And we must also, I would rather look forward to how the DNK is going to counter this.
26:19Will it raise to ensure some kind of an understanding with the central BJP, as Mr. Sumanth P. Raman was suggesting?
26:26Or will it braze up for a situation where the opposition could actually get united?
26:31Because on the ground, there are several anti-incumbency issues of which corruption is topmost, we think.
26:38All right, Mr. Raman, would you like to sum it up? What are the things to watch out for?
26:42One very important point, which I don't know whether it has been made,
26:45this TTV Dinakaran factor in the southern part of the state where 2-3% vote, which is very important, which AIDMK lost.
26:52Now, there is a possibility of an alliance where Mr. Dinakaran, because he runs a separate party called the AMMK, is roped into the alliance.
27:01And the BJP allots him their quota. It's not something which EPS would like to do.
27:07But if push comes to shove, the BJP may be able to manage that.
27:10So all told, I think we need to wait. There's still a year to go.
27:14But early signs that there's going to be a formidable combine to take on the DMK in 2026.
27:19Well, you know, I think what also most of us in Delhi are watching out for what comes of Annamalai.
27:24But appreciate all four of you gentlemen for joining us. Thank you there.
27:27Well, we do know the AIDMK, the BJP have been all flames, but there's seemingly a clear understanding.
27:33And we've seen their political history. It's just friends with benefits. Leave it at that.
27:38Muslim organizations are hitting the streets to protest against the proposed Waqf Amendment Bill.
27:44The All India Muslim Personal Law Board held a protest at Gardhani Bagh in Patna on Wednesday.
27:50The event was attended by Bihar's opposition leaders.
28:07The Waqf is a major issue in Bihar, the only major state going to polls this year.
28:30Joint Parliamentary Committee chief urged protesters to wait for the bill to be tabled.
28:37The BJP slammed the opposition over its stand.
29:02The Bihar Parliament's 2025 election is an attempt to satisfy a certain group of people.
29:15It is unfortunate that they are trying to divide the people of Bihar on a religious basis.
29:23With the government expected to table the Waqf Amendment Bill in this session of Parliament,
29:28many Muslim bodies are planning protests.
29:31AIMIM chief Asaduddin Owaisi had joined a protest in Delhi recently.
29:36The Waqf Amendment Bill will set new rules for management of properties
29:40dedicated exclusively for religious or charitable purposes under Islamic law.
29:45Waqf boards control 8.7 lakh properties spanning 9.4 lakh acres across India
29:52with an estimated value of 1.2 lakh crore rupees.
29:57There are 32 Waqf boards including two Shia Waqf boards in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar.
30:02With Rohit Singh in Patna, Bureau Report, India Today.
30:07So at the back of that, the big questions that I asked this evening before we go into our political face-off.
30:13Is the Waqf Bill being criticized for government outreach?
30:17Why is the bill being perceived as discriminatory to just one religion?
30:22Is there more to that?
30:23Waqf Bill needed to stem land mafia.
30:27And importantly, if you bring it in the current political context,
30:30the Waqf Bill politics now peaking with a clear eye on Bihar elections in the next three months.
30:36Will the government somewhere down the line with a rethink,
30:39at least till Bihar goes into election, stall on the Waqf Bill in budget session?
30:46And lastly, is or will the government pick Waqf Bill?
30:51Or will it pick Bihar ally appeasement?
30:55Because viewers, there has to be context in all of this.
30:58Because JDU, LJP have got a sizable chunk of the Muslim vote where Bihar is concerned.
31:03Even if you see the protests are peaking right now, mostly in Bihar.
31:07So what will the government do?
31:11Will the Waqf Bill come in as some sources suggest next week?
31:16Or is the government going to hold on to it?
31:18Not before the winter session.
31:21Well, let's take this debate to our panelists this evening.
31:24Joining me, Syed Nasir Hussain, Rajya Sabha MP, Congress,
31:28Tuhin Sinha, National Spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party.
31:31I want to cut across immediately to Tuhin Sinha.
31:34Tuhin Sinha, you know what's interesting in all of this is,
31:36while there's a fair amount of rhetoric on the Waqf Bill,
31:39number one, it was to be tabled in the budget session.
31:42It still hasn't come.
31:43And the reasoning seems to suggest it's the Bihar elections.
31:46Your allies are a tad bit, not unhappy, but very uncomfortable.
31:51If this bill actually is tabled in this session,
31:55it could have political ramifications for them back home in Bihar.
31:59Well, good evening, Preeti. Good evening, everybody.
32:02There are still about six days left for the budget session to be over.
32:07And I am fairly optimistic that the bill will be tabled.
32:11You know, we were always, when we got to 46 seats in the Lok Sabha elections last year,
32:16we were always aware of our limitations.
32:18But then, you know, we are committed to our ideology.
32:21And honestly, this Waqf amendment has like,
32:25the Honorable Prime Minister has always explained nothing to do,
32:29you know, there is not an element of anti-Muslim sentiment in it.
32:34Fact is, it primarily, it primarily rescues the Waqf Act from the spurious legislation
32:41brought about by the Waqf Act of 1995, you know,
32:45which gave unbridled powers to the Waqf court to acquire,
32:49to stake claim and to acquire any property.
32:52And the tribunal also acted in an extremely lopsided manner.
32:56This was further, you know, worsened by the amendment of 2013,
33:01when even a non-Muslim could contribute to the Waqf court.
33:04These amendments are being undone.
33:06Besides, you know, a whole lot of reforms which were pending,
33:10which some of which were also recommended by the Sarchar committee in 2006.
33:14So what is wrong in it?
33:16It is the usual propaganda of the opposition to label every reform that the BJP brings as anti-Muslim,
33:24which is not the case over here.
33:26You know, fact is that the Waqf board has a history of usurping land not belonging to them.
33:33That includes, you know, I'm forgetting the name in Tamil Nadu,
33:40a village which has a 1500-year-old temple, a village in Haryana,
33:44which has a 400-year-old Gurudwara, which includes a village in Kerala,
33:51which has an equally old, you know, church.
33:55So all of these require the Waqf board to also have members from other communities other than the Muslims.
34:03So your time's up. You had two minutes. I want to go to Dr. Hussain.
34:07Dr. Hussain, where is the Congress's stand in all of this?
34:10I'm going to go back to the BJP spokesperson because what's interesting in all of this is,
34:14why is it happening with Bihar being the epicenter of it?
34:17And it's quite clear, it's the Bihar elections.
34:19But the Congress really hasn't made their stand clear on where it stands on the Waqf board bill,
34:24especially the amendment bill which the government wants to table.
34:27See, Congress party is very clear. Congress party took a position when the bill was introduced in 2024 in Lok Sabha.
34:37Congress party feels that it is a very unfair law. It feels that it's a targeted legislation.
34:44It feels that the bill denies the multi-religious character of our society by divisive act.
34:50It dilutes and diminishes constitutional provisions that guarantee equal rights and protections to all citizens regardless of their religion.
34:57It believes that this bill is to demonize minority communities by spreading false propaganda and creating prejudice.
35:05There are lots of provisions in this bill which weakens the Waqf institutions as it has been there for long, long, long years.
35:24So the entire target of this bill is to demonize the communities, spread false propaganda,
35:31weaken the Waqf structure, weaken the administration of the Waqf,
35:34and also to tell that this is what we can do to the minority communities in our country.
35:41If we can't change the constitution, we will definitely change the provisions that keeps the diversities alive in our country.
35:51This is what it is. So it is very clear that JPC was constituted on the demand of the opposition parties,
36:00but in JPC, of which I was also a member, there would have been more detailed discussion.
36:06The stakeholders, most serious stakeholders should have been called.
36:10People who are not stakeholders, organizations, they have nothing to do with Waqf were called.
36:15And finally, the JPC report was bulldozed. It was given in the night and in the morning it was adopted.
36:23And then the main feature of any JPC would be clause by clause consideration.
36:31Alright, I am going to go back but I am going to begin with you this time.
36:34That was not done.
36:35Dr. Hussain, I am going to begin with you and I asked you a question which I will also now bring in your BJP spokesperson in it.
36:42But first up, Dr. Hussain, was there tacit support today by the Congress to the All India Muslim Personal Law Board
36:48that held protests mainly in the state of Bihar?
36:51See, whichever organizations have been organizing protests on the Waqf issues,
37:00congressmen locally or people who have been invited by those organizations have gone and spoken there.
37:08But the Congress party has opposed the Waqf bill in 2024 when it was introduced in the Lok Sabha.
37:17And it has opposed, its members in JPC have opposed the Deccanian law in the JPC as well.
37:27Alright, okay. Tuhin Sinha, while the argument is and many would suggest that it is correct to a limit
37:34where you say that the Waqf bill is there to stem land mafia.
37:37But having said that, it can also be read as highly discriminatory against one religion.
37:42And especially where you have trusts of other religions who are going to continue to hold their property.
37:48So why should not it be seen under the lens of being discriminatory and trying to only target a particular religion?
37:57Well, on the contrary, one of the important amendments is to enhance the representation of the Waqf board
38:05and to include, you know, Muslims from the backward communities also.
38:11And also to include, also to have in the Waqf board a Hindu member. Now, why is that?
38:17I explained you that right at the start because, you know, most of the properties which have been usurped
38:23or claimed have belonged to other religions. So you need to have representatives from those religions
38:30to also contradict and to rebut the claims made by the Waqf board.
38:36And that includes, I was mentioning about this village, Tiruchirintarai in Tamil Nadu,
38:42where a 1500 year old temple has existed and, you know, the Waqf board claimed ownership over that entire village.
38:48That applies to many other Hindu lands. But the Muslim community, especially the poor among the Muslim community
38:56have equally, you know, been a victim of the aggrandizement habits of the Waqf board,
39:02which the Congress party refuses to acknowledge because Congress party essentially, you know, its sympathies lies with the…
39:09Okay, Tuhin Sinha, as I bring in Dr. Hussain into this conversation, the next question I'd like to ask you is,
39:15is the BJP of the same opinion of an equal representation of other religions in Hindu trust boards?
39:22No, no, there is a difference. You know, no Hindu trust board is acquiring land belonging to different communities.
39:29You give me an example, if the management of a temple and land, you know, land ownership rights are completely two different things.
39:39So you cannot compare it with the management of the Tirupati temple or any other temple,
39:44because this was clearly about land ownership, which by default gave birth to a malefied land mafia, which had to be curtailed.
39:54So please understand, there is a very clear difference over here. No Hindu temple management gets into acquiring land of other communities across the country.
40:04Dr. Nasir Hussain, you want to come in on that as a counter. Go ahead, sir.
40:08See, first of all, the example that is being given of the Tamil Nadu Hindu, Tamil Nadu village,
40:15the Waqf board did not claim that it is a Waqf land. In fact, the Waqf board said it is not a Waqf land.
40:23This was a wrong entry that was done by a government revenue official. Let me put this record straight.
40:31This was very clearly a mistake done by the revenue official at the lower level. It was not declared by the Waqf board.
40:38This is the kind of propaganda they have unleashed on Waqf board, number one.
40:42If you can give even one example where the Waqf board has claimed lands which is not its own land.
40:54Waqf board has only claimed those lands which have been encroached and the encroacher can be from any community.
41:00Encroacher can be a Muslim, can be a Hindu, can be a Sikh, can be a Christian, can be government.
41:06Encroacher can be anybody. Only those lands have been claimed and there is no power for Waqf board to go and register any land as its own land.
41:16Only the court can decide. Only the revenue officials can decide.
41:21Once the Waqf board finds that there are relevant papers of particular land being the Waqf land, they will send it to the district collector.
41:30They will send it to the district revenue authorities.
41:32The revenue authorities will go through all the procedures of registering a property as they do it to anybody in this country.
41:46So this argument that the Waqf land is claiming other land hence we are putting non-Muslims into a Muslim institution is something false.
41:57And every Hindu religious act, every endowment act in every state, every Muzrai department, SGPC and any Christian authority,
42:08everyone says that there can be the member or the official should be from that religion itself.
42:14It is very very clear.
42:16Okay but Dr. Hussain on a larger point before I go back to the BJP spokesperson I want to ask you this question sir.
42:23Somewhere down the line is there at least an agreement that there was a land mafia as well associated with the Waqf board or are you completely in denial of that?
42:34That it was exploited at times.
42:37Nani what land mafia is there? What are the cases?
42:46Sir there are plenty of cases where Waqf land has come into contention.
42:51You and I both know there have been plenty of cases.
42:55There are a lot of legal arguments in court being made on the same.
42:59Ma'am there are plenty of cases where the Waqf land has been encroached.
43:07They have been encroached by Muslims largely.
43:09They have been encroached by government.
43:11They have been encroached by some people belonging to other communities also.
43:14By knowingly unknowingly they have been staying on those lands for years.
43:18As they stay on any government land thinking that it is a government land they have stayed there.
43:23And if it is a Waqf land obviously the Waqf board in that particular state will claim that land.
43:30But for that they should have relevant papers.
43:32But Dr. Hussain let me pose it like this.
43:35They will have to go through all the procedures that the revenue department does.
43:38Before I bring in Taveen Sinha let me ask you in this regard.
43:43Because of the kind of history that we had which has largely been Mughal run.
43:47And post that would you reckon that maybe that there was a culture where the Waqf has acquired large amounts of land.
43:54And there needs to be a possible audit in some areas.
43:58Madam it is not just the Mughal rule.
44:03There have been dynasties which have been ruled by Muslims for more than 1000 years.
44:09Fair point.
44:10How does that come into picture now?
44:14If there is a Waqf land if it has been donated by X, Y, Z.
44:19Or it has been given by the government at different times.
44:22And if the records are there and if it is there in usage for a long time.
44:28And if it has been registered by the Waqf property by going through all the procedures after 1947.
44:34So it will be Waqf land.
44:36Why do you want to dig into history now?
44:39Why do you want to dig into history?
44:40Do you think all these governments in different states.
44:43Whether it is belonging to Congress, whether it is belonging to BJP or Janta Dal or any other regional party in the states.
44:49And also different parties in the centre.
44:52Have they been fools to register all these properties and put on the national portal that is there?
44:57So that is where the question stems from.
45:00Because the BJP wants to fan an anti-Muslim rhetoric.
45:06The Waqf amendment bill is the latest tool in the same theory.
45:12You know Preeti the whole concept of Waqf should have become obsolete after the partition of the country in 1947.
45:19And that is primarily why the constitution has no reference, no mention of it.
45:24But it was the vote bank politics of the Congress party which had introduced the Waqf Act in 1954.
45:30A lot of blunders have subsequently been added with the Waqf Act of 1995 and the subsequent amendment of 2013.
45:40Which need to be corrected.
45:42This is a bold government which will go all the way to make those corrections.
45:46So that the future of this country does not suffer.
45:51You might say this is a bold government.
45:53But the messaging can also be a discriminatory government which is looking to override the constitution.
45:58That is for you to decide.
46:01Some of the journalists consider it discriminatory.
46:04But a major part of the media considers it as a correction.
46:08It's not the media sir.
46:10The reason why BJP is repeatedly being voted back to power.
46:17Is because the people realize that this is correction of historical wrongs which have been repeatedly taken.
46:23I want to go in for last comments right now.
46:25Allow me to complete just one second.
46:27Mr. Hussain seems to be living in denial.
46:30He is saying there are no instances of aggrandizement.
46:33Just last year you would recall 1200 acres of farmer's land were claimed by the Waqf court in Karnataka.
46:40And one of the ministers, Zamir Khan, showed extra alacrity in facilitating that.
46:47And today he is saying that there are no instances of such claims.
46:50I'm going to come back.
46:52Mr. Sinha, the fact is what's really happened is when you say that this is a figment of only certain part of the media.
46:58No, it's not.
46:59We are just voicing the concerns of the people.
47:01And the possibility is also that maybe some of the BJP spokesperson are only used to a particular line of engagement and questioning.
47:08And therefore then you get into how, with what you just said.
47:12But I'm going to leave it at that.
47:13Last questions there.
47:15Final points.
47:16Dr. Hussain, with what you see right now, how much does this have to do with the Bihar election?
47:21Suddenly the protests are coming up, stemming in Bihar.
47:23You are trying to build pressure on the BJP to not introduce this bill, this session, or the monsoon session, stall on it.
47:30Especially make it a political point for Bihar elections.
47:34See, I'll tell you something.
47:37Let me first give a rebuttal to the BJP spokesperson.
47:39If he says that it doesn't find any space in the constitution of a country, then let him go and read what is 25, Article 25, Article 26 and Article 29.
47:50If he says the WAF board shouldn't be there, then he should also go and do away with the endowment board, with the Muzrai department.
47:57With the different religious act that has been there in Warissa, in Telangana, in Karnataka, in Tamil Nadu, in Bihar, in Jharkhand.
48:04Everywhere their acts are there.
48:05The constitution of a country clearly gives rights to people of all religions to govern and administrate their own religious properties.
48:15If the prime minister who said some days back that it doesn't find space in the constitution, then why is he amending it?
48:23He should go away with this.
48:24He shouldn't be amending this.
48:26If the BJP spokesperson and his party feels that there is no space, then they should remove endowment acts.
48:32Then they should remove Muzrai department.
48:34Then they should remove all these religious acts.
48:36Then they should say there is nothing to be done in our country.
48:3917% is the population of Muslims in the state of Bihar.
48:437% was what your ally Nitish Kumar got in 2020.
48:487% of the 17% and a couple of percent or two went to LJP.
48:54The allies, it's important that you don't create an anti-Muslim sentiment because they need that vote.
49:00Is the BJP going to pick ally appeasement over the VATS bill is the question.
49:07Two things.
49:08So at least as of today, both the allies you have mentioned have shown full support for the bill.
49:14The amendment for women act.
49:16Not really.
49:17The JDU hasn't really made it clear on where they stand on this, sir.
49:21Well, it's been six months and there has been there has been not an iota of opposition.
49:26You know, everybody need not have a have a stand.
49:29So if they are not opposing it, if they don't have a ground to oppose it, that obviously means that they are supporting it.
49:36Number two, you have seen that the BJP walks the talk.
49:40So it's the amendment act is something which is bound to see the light of the day.
49:47Okay. All right.
49:48Let's see how that, you know, how that pans out.
49:50I appreciate both you gentlemen for joining us.
49:52Thank you there.