This week on Power House we are talking to the one and only Dave Lykken! Dave has over 50 years of mortgage industry experience under his belt and is likely a name familiar to many of you. He also hosts his own weekly podcast, Lykken on Lending, where he talks all things mortgage.
Diego sits down with Dave to get his take on what’s happening in mortgage. They talk about where he thinks rates will stabilize in the next year and what’s on the horizon for cost reduction and data tools. He also talks about the importance of executive coaching and the strategies top agents are using to connect with consumers.
We recorded this conversation live at our Housing Economic Summit. Check out the full video here!
Here’s what you’ll learn:
Coaching plays a crucial role in helping executives stay motivated.
Economic uncertainty always presents both challenges and opportunities for growth.
Cost reduction is going to be essential for survival in mortgage
AI and technology are streamlining and transforming the way business is done.
Understanding and predicting market trends is vital for success in housing finance.
Related to this episode:
2023 HW Vanguard: David Lykken | HousingWire
https://www.housingwire.com/winner-profile/2023-hw-vanguard-david-lykken/
Lykken on Lending | Apple Podcasts
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lykken-on-lending/id325398628
David Lykken
https://davidlykken.com/
David Lykken | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidlykken
Enjoy the episode!
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio
Diego sits down with Dave to get his take on what’s happening in mortgage. They talk about where he thinks rates will stabilize in the next year and what’s on the horizon for cost reduction and data tools. He also talks about the importance of executive coaching and the strategies top agents are using to connect with consumers.
We recorded this conversation live at our Housing Economic Summit. Check out the full video here!
Here’s what you’ll learn:
Coaching plays a crucial role in helping executives stay motivated.
Economic uncertainty always presents both challenges and opportunities for growth.
Cost reduction is going to be essential for survival in mortgage
AI and technology are streamlining and transforming the way business is done.
Understanding and predicting market trends is vital for success in housing finance.
Related to this episode:
2023 HW Vanguard: David Lykken | HousingWire
https://www.housingwire.com/winner-profile/2023-hw-vanguard-david-lykken/
Lykken on Lending | Apple Podcasts
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lykken-on-lending/id325398628
David Lykken
https://davidlykken.com/
David Lykken | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidlykken
Enjoy the episode!
The Power House podcast brings the biggest names in housing to answer hard-hitting questions about industry trends, operational and growth strategy, and leadership. Join HousingWire president Diego Sanchez every Thursday morning for candid conversations with industry leaders to learn how they’re differentiating themselves from the competition. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio
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NewsTranscript
00:00We have been responding to policy, positive and negative,
00:04rates, positive, negative, an economic environment
00:08that has been all over the place.
00:09All over the place.
00:10And we have survived.
00:18Welcome to Powerhouse,
00:20where we talk to the biggest names in housing
00:23and ask them about their strategy for growth.
00:25I'm Diego Sanchez, president of HousingWire,
00:29and we are recording in person, which is great.
00:32Love in person from our Housing Economics Summit.
00:37And this person needs no introduction,
00:39but I'll introduce you.
00:40This is Dave Licken,
00:4250 plus year veteran in the mortgage industry.
00:46You've bought and sold several companies.
00:49You advise some of the biggest leaders,
00:52biggest names in the mortgage industry.
00:55I'm really honored to have you on the show today.
00:57Diego, it's good to be here.
00:58And I love this event that we're here around.
01:00This Economic Summit that you guys are putting on here
01:03is so rich in content,
01:06and the context of where we're living in right now,
01:08the times that we're in, this is just outstanding.
01:11Yeah.
01:12So what are your takeaways so far today?
01:15What are you thinking?
01:16Well, I think the stress on data,
01:19but it's so important that we get focused
01:21and everyone focusing on data.
01:22We get opinions.
01:24We hear a lot of things on podcasts.
01:26I do a podcast.
01:27And you can get caught up in rumors,
01:31which you think you've done your fact checking on.
01:33And then you find out when you come to an event like this,
01:36that maybe not so much.
01:38I mean, I'm going to be doubling down a lot more
01:40on the fact checking that I do,
01:42that I'll put on my podcast,
01:45because it's really coming down to data.
01:46And there's some data that came out of here
01:48that is encouraging for housing.
01:50I think for mortgage lenders
01:51and the housing market generally,
01:53we've got the potential for some good days ahead.
01:55Yeah, you know, it was interesting.
01:57The 6% sort of magic mortgage rate
02:02that Logan was talking about,
02:04that Mike Simonson was talking about,
02:06and Mike actually put up a pretty interesting chart
02:08about why 6% is maybe a magic rate.
02:12That really caught my attention
02:14and gave me a little bit of optimism as well,
02:18because I think we could head there.
02:19We could head in that direction.
02:21Yeah, I think it's very possible.
02:23And then the question that was poised,
02:25I think Brian did it.
02:29Brian Hale said, are you ready?
02:31Are you ready?
02:32And what does that mean?
02:33Because we are an industry
02:35that has been caught in boom-bust cycles.
02:38And the boom kills us
02:40because we're too slow on the cutting back,
02:42and we're not fast enough on the gearing up
02:45when the boom happens.
02:46So when the bust happens, we need to cut,
02:49and we don't cut fast enough.
02:50The boom happens, we're on our heels
02:53and we're trying to respond.
02:53Yeah, wouldn't it be great, though,
02:55if we could be less of an accordion?
02:57Yeah, it would be nice.
02:59I mean, in a perfect world, yeah.
03:00But it is what it is.
03:02But I think what some of the things
03:04that are going on right now,
03:05whether you agree with this administration or not,
03:07is setting the stage for, I think,
03:09what could play out to be less of the accordion effect.
03:13And I think that's important,
03:16that we realize if we could just even out
03:18some of those things.
03:19I look at the Fed policies
03:20and that I haven't always agreed with.
03:23And I like, for right now,
03:24holding rates as high as they are.
03:25I mean, I'd like to stimulate the economy.
03:27It's to help stimulate housing a bit more.
03:28I know they have their reasons for that.
03:30So a lot more is gonna be played out, Diego, in that.
03:33But yeah, how nice would it be to have that?
03:36But I'm not holding my breath.
03:37I've been in it for 51 years.
03:39I don't, I think we've been dealing
03:40with accordion effect for a long, long time.
03:42Not anticipating that changing.
03:44That's fair.
03:45And so you are a very prolific content creator
03:50You've got a podcast, you do a lot of television.
03:55Why?
03:56Why do you love it and how does it impact your business?
04:00If you would have told me in high school
04:02that I would be doing this,
04:04I'd have said, there is no way.
04:06I had a phobia of speaking in front of people.
04:09And there was a particular event that happened
04:12where I got asked to speak at an event
04:14and they didn't tell me in advance.
04:16So you're sitting in an audience at a conference
04:18with 500 people there.
04:20And they start introducing me,
04:21but they didn't start with my name.
04:23They said, there's a guy here that,
04:25and they described me, kind of gave a bad bio.
04:27And then they said, I'm going,
04:28I can't wait to hear the speaker.
04:30It sounds a lot like me.
04:31I want to hear what this guy had to say.
04:32And they said, Dave Licken, would you come up?
04:36So you got put on the spot.
04:37I got put on the spot.
04:38And when you're around 500 people,
04:40you being a compliant person,
04:43I went up there and did my best.
04:45And then something, I stepped over a fear,
04:49because I'd had some events happen.
04:51And I think this is something I do a lot of coaching on,
04:54executive coaching.
04:55How many people are being held back from their destiny
04:58because of an event that happened earlier in their life
05:00that causes them pain and recoiling from doing something
05:05that I'm now getting more and more suspect
05:07when I work with people, Diego, that I ask them,
05:11what is it that's your greatest fear?
05:13And what was the event that brought that about?
05:16And in that can oftentimes be the thing
05:19that's keeping them from their destiny.
05:21So I like talking about destiny.
05:23I like talking about where, especially as a coach,
05:25executive coach, which I do consulting in,
05:27executive coaching, it's that.
05:30So for me, it was being able to now communicate stories.
05:36Data is so good, but it's when you package the data
05:39in a meaningful story and can relate it well to people,
05:43you find out how it can move people to take action,
05:46the right action.
05:47So it's really, it's taking data
05:50and then putting it in a context of a story
05:52because people will not remember data as well
05:55unless it is connected to a really meaningful story.
05:57Within the context of the story.
05:59That makes a lot of sense.
06:01You mentioned coaching.
06:03You coach some pretty prominent people
06:05in the religion industry.
06:07And it has not been the easiest time.
06:10No, it hasn't.
06:11A couple of years now.
06:13How are you helping them stay on top of their game,
06:18stay motivated, and stay motivating their own team?
06:23Because they've got to be motivating for their team
06:25even when times are tough.
06:27How are you doing that?
06:28Well, first of all, I get people back to their passion.
06:31One of my favorite stories is an executive I was coaching
06:34and he called me one day and says,
06:35man, this is really getting hard.
06:37I'm done.
06:37I am just getting out of this industry.
06:40And I said, what is the reason you got into this
06:43in the first place?
06:45And I think I can use his name.
06:46He's authorized me to do it.
06:47It's Michael Powell.
06:48He's now at Bank of OZK.
06:50And this is back when he was at a previous institution.
06:54He's done getting out of it because it's difficult.
06:56There's no more fun.
06:57I said, why did you get into it?
06:58And he says, ah, that's a great story.
07:00And he told me the story,
07:01what motivated me to get into housing finance,
07:04mortgage specific, was because his parents
07:06who had made decisions that had kept them
07:09out of owning a home,
07:10they got with a mortgage person that worked with them
07:13and got him into a home.
07:14And see, he and his brother,
07:16I think it was he and his brother,
07:17hopefully I remember the siblings, right?
07:19They found out that they were buying a home
07:22by his parents saying, we're going to a closing.
07:24I said, that's a great story.
07:26So you watching your parents get a house motivated into,
07:30what's changed?
07:32He says, it's getting worse.
07:33It's really, I mean, he was going through some difficulties
07:36with both the company that he was with at the time
07:38and then also circumstances of the market.
07:40And I said, okay, I'll let you quit.
07:43I'll go along with you quitting on one condition.
07:47You need to go out and go to at least one or two,
07:51I said, I prefer you go to three closings
07:54and ask them, what is it that we just,
07:57and it would have to be first time home buyers.
07:59What is it that we did here that is,
08:03how meaningful is it to you?
08:04The first closing, Diego, he went to,
08:07he was a little late, drove up
08:08and they were finishing up the paperwork
08:09his loan officer there and he didn't notice
08:11that the guy was sitting in a wheelchair.
08:14And he's sitting there and he walked in and goes,
08:16so I'm Michael, I'm here just to,
08:19my coach has said I want to get out and get to know
08:22and reconnect with our consumers that are buying homes.
08:24He says, so can I ask you a question?
08:26What does this, buying this home
08:28and us doing what we've done here for you
08:30mean to you today?
08:32And the guy looked at his wife
08:34and an emotion started coming over him.
08:37He pushed back from the table
08:38and that's when he noticed he's in a wheelchair.
08:41He was, had his legs blown off in Afghanistan.
08:45And he says, why would I,
08:48why would my wife want to stay with him half a man?
08:51His identity was his athleticism,
08:54his ability to function and he got into drugs
08:57and depressed, PTSD set in.
09:00And it was because his wife never gave up
09:03the vision of believing in him and tried to convince him.
09:06She says, I believe if we can get him into house, Diego,
09:10and she says, and I found,
09:13and points to Michael's loan officer,
09:16we worked through some difficult,
09:17two years this person worked with me
09:19to overcome circumstances that,
09:22and she said we, it was actually he,
09:24that had buried them,
09:25worth just keeping them out of home ownership.
09:27And now he's getting emotional.
09:28He says, by me buying this home,
09:31I feel like I have become a man again.
09:34I can reenter society.
09:36And the motion that was in that moment,
09:38Michael started crying, the loan officer,
09:40everyone there, because when we connect
09:43with what we are doing with,
09:46in the mortgage industry,
09:47the mission, helping people get into homes.
09:50It is so transformative of what it can do, Diego.
09:53What great advice to just go
09:55and see people get into their house.
09:57Yeah, I think, I mean, one thing I love,
09:59I saw some of the airlines, love that story,
10:01Herb Keller, he used to go work the counter.
10:04He goes to work and sluck,
10:06sluck luggage in the belly of the airplane.
10:08I think executives today need to get out
10:11and connect with the consumer,
10:13the people they're doing business with,
10:14and their employees at every level in organization.
10:17And you see how dedicated they are.
10:18You see why they're doing it,
10:20which comes to the why, I mean, our purpose.
10:22Why are we doing what we're doing?
10:24And you will get a new motivation
10:27in these difficult times.
10:29I love that.
10:30I love that a lot.
10:32Again, we're here at the Housing Economic Summit,
10:35and I think we're both feeling a little bit of optimism
10:38after this morning.
10:40What do you see as some of the biggest obstacles
10:43and challenges to 2025 being a growth year
10:47for mortgage origination?
10:48Well, I think there's an overall fear or anxiety
10:53or concern about what's going on in DC.
10:57Love them or hate them,
10:59this administration is shaking things up.
11:03You look at Doge,
11:04and you look at how many people are being laid off,
11:05and what does this mean to the services
11:08that we've become accustomed to?
11:09You look at what Scott Turner's gonna be doing at HUD
11:13as the director of HUD.
11:17Secretary of HUD, excuse me.
11:18He is going to be talking about cutting jobs.
11:22What does that mean for our housing finance?
11:24So there's optimism in that we have reason to believe
11:28that interest rates could actually come back down,
11:31and we cross over that threshold
11:32where people are still gonna wanna start buying.
11:34But what are we doing to the stability
11:36of our housing finance system?
11:37And that's an angst that's there.
11:40I have a confidence that no matter where we're at,
11:44that we are resourceful as an industry.
11:47You look at what mortgage industry has gone through.
11:50I started the industry in 1973.
11:53I had rates my first bunch of years in the industry.
11:56We went to 18, 19, 20%.
11:59I remember doing a loan at 20% at the time back in 1980.
12:04And I was seven years into this industry.
12:06I started at an upward climb as an industry.
12:09I didn't know what falling rates felt like.
12:12So we came out of that.
12:14We were making loans at 18 and 19%, Diego.
12:18And then we come back,
12:19and then Clinton comes in, and we see a recovery,
12:22and we see all the things that were done
12:25with the housing policy that really spurred on.
12:28And it was really Carter that came in
12:29and created the programs that took out what was redlining.
12:35That really started opening up the markets.
12:36Clinton expanded those programs.
12:38And we have been responding to policy,
12:42positive and negative, rates, positive, negative,
12:46an economic environment that has been all over the place,
12:49and we have survived.
12:51And I think it's made our industry stronger.
12:53It's made executives stronger.
12:54Now, what we've just gone through,
12:55we heard, who was it that said it up there?
12:57Brian, I think, again, Brian Hale said, I love Brian.
13:01I had a privilege of knowing him in his countrywide days,
13:03and he is such a brilliant guy.
13:05Straight shooter.
13:06Straight shooter, and he says it like it is,
13:07and that's what I love.
13:10I think sometimes I try to find the right way to say it.
13:12Brian doesn't give a crap.
13:13He says, this is the way it is.
13:14He just says it.
13:15I've got to take more, Brian.
13:17So kudos to you, Brian, the way you say it.
13:17He said, of all the years I've been in this industry,
13:20and I've been through some difficult years,
13:22he said, and I have, too.
13:23Of course, I've been in it a little bit longer.
13:25He said, the last three have been the most difficult.
13:28And he was at Countrywide during some very difficult years.
13:32So that's a big statement.
13:34It is a big statement.
13:35So I think this is testing us like no other time
13:40in my history of 51 years in the industry.
13:42Brian's 43 years.
13:44Nothing has tested us quite like the last three years.
13:47But what we're finding is the companies
13:49that are emerging out of this are stronger,
13:53are more focused, and have a higher survivability rate
13:58than a lot of the predecessors before.
14:01Yeah, that's really encouraging.
14:02So you are a coach.
14:04You're also a consultant to the industry.
14:07What issues and areas are you consulting most on right now?
14:13Well, cost reduction has been a drum
14:16I've been beating for some time.
14:18Unless we focus, I've always been concerned
14:20about a lot of clients.
14:21I have clients for coast to coast,
14:22big or small, some of the biggest ones,
14:23some of the smallest ones.
14:25And I've been concerned about their cost to originate,
14:27because I'm seeing innovation.
14:28One of the things I had when I was a loan originator,
14:32I had a Boeing engineer.
14:32I was up in Seattle at the time.
14:34A Boeing engineer gave me a Heathcote computer.
14:36It was the first microcomputer.
14:37It was a thing he built.
14:39But out of that, I started playing with it,
14:41and I got a software spec,
14:42and I created it for one of the first
14:44loan origination systems.
14:46At the time, it was called the loan originator,
14:48and then it became interlinked software
14:49that went public and went on, did really well.
14:51That was my creation of my garage.
14:55So I have an appreciation of what automation can do for us.
14:59And now with AI coming into this,
15:01we have got so many tools that we can use.
15:05AI is coming in all over the map.
15:08And AI is not the end-all, be-all, because there's a lot.
15:12We have LLM models, the Large Language Models,
15:16and we have non-Large Language Models.
15:19If you're gonna get in and start using AI,
15:21you better understand the difference,
15:23because Large Language Models can get you in trouble.
15:27Because when Fannie and Freddie looked at
15:29trying to make some underwriting decisions,
15:31the bias that came in through the training of LLMs
15:35got put into the systems,
15:37where I think we need to look at, intelligently look at AI.
15:41One of the books I'm recommending everyone to read,
15:43and anyone watching this,
15:45read the book by Mustafa Suleyman, The Coming Wave.
15:49It's sobering, it's exciting,
15:52and it will get you in a mindset.
15:56And you talked about earlier about, what am I doing?
15:57I'm helping executives change their mindset in the coaching.
16:00That's what I really work on.
16:01But cost is the biggest thing I'm thumping on.
16:04But as a result of this today,
16:06conference, which has been so good,
16:09focus on the data, and how to go get the business,
16:13and it's focusing and targeting
16:16the realtors that are doing the business.
16:18So I look at the business intelligence tools,
16:21MMI, Modex, now Ratter,
16:25is a new one that I'm really caught my attention.
16:28These are business intelligence tools
16:30that can zero in exactly who we need to be calling on.
16:34Are you seeing your coaching and consulting clients
16:38thinking a lot about M&A right now?
16:40Oh yeah, there's a lot.
16:41I mean, my good buddy, Bill Cosgrove,
16:45just bought NRL out of Houston.
16:48That's a big news, that happened last Friday,
16:49it got announced.
16:50There's a lot of that,
16:51there's gonna be a lot of consolidation.
16:53We're becoming a bigger balance sheet.
16:56What was said by the banks that,
16:58those independent mortgage bankers,
16:59they just don't have the strong balance sheets,
17:01they're like grass.
17:03The sun comes out and they're gonna fade away.
17:06So there is a place for an entrepreneurial,
17:09thinly capitalized company that's aggressive in marketing,
17:12that can survive and grow.
17:13But you're gonna come up against some constraints,
17:16and that's where a well-capitalized,
17:18independent mortgage banking company,
17:20such as Union Home and Bill Cosgrove's company,
17:22is gonna have a real advantage.
17:24So there's gonna be continued consolidation,
17:28both tech and in the independent mortgage space.
17:32Is that a good thing?
17:34Well, Bill would say it's a good thing,
17:36because he's growing his business.
17:37So obviously, if you're the one that's acquire or,
17:40it's creating an exit strategy
17:42for those that are struggling.
17:44So it gives them a payout of some sorts at various levels.
17:49I've done a lot of that,
17:50so I'm always saying for an undisclosed sum of money,
17:53that means it went for a real low price
17:56that I don't want us to talk about
17:57at the price that it went to.
17:59It's not always the case,
18:01but I mean, so that's not a general rule of thumb.
18:03But there is a lot of deals that are getting done for,
18:06hey, just, can we just, would you, I just want out.
18:08I just want out.
18:09Let me take my cash off the table,
18:11and let me put my organization, and I'll do an earn out.
18:14So if I do well, my organization does well on you,
18:16then I'll get paid more.
18:17And I think we're seeing more of those deals.
18:19That's the nature of it.
18:20And so on the real estate side,
18:23we have been seeing a real flight to quality
18:27ever since the NARA settlement happened.
18:30And good listing agents are getting better,
18:33and they're doing more business.
18:35Do you see that having an impact on LOs
18:38and the lending side?
18:39Yes, it's causing LOs to have to elevate their game.
18:43Because when you find a listing agent
18:45who is becoming much more of a professional now
18:47because of this lawsuit,
18:49they're going, I don't see you as serious
18:53about your profession as I am as a listing agent.
18:56So I think it's really critical that,
19:00that this is going to have,
19:01that the critical factor it's going to have
19:03is going to raise the game.
19:05Those that do not raise their game.
19:06I'm looking, I'm sitting next to loan officers
19:09here at the Economic Summit that paid the fee to be here.
19:13And if you're watching this,
19:14and you're not at this Economic Summit,
19:17you're already behind that loan officer
19:19that's sitting next to me.
19:20It's crazy, I had lunch with a realtor from Wisconsin.
19:24And she's just taking it all in, she's learning,
19:26and she's getting better.
19:27And getting better.
19:28I think it is because we need to be reading,
19:31become more professional.
19:32We gotta look at the data.
19:34We gotta quit parroting what you're hearing
19:36on the last podcast.
19:38Listen to a good podcast, they're good.
19:39If you're listening to the right one,
19:40you get good information.
19:41But even sometimes we can get it wrong.
19:43That's why I'm saying, I'm stepping up the game
19:44on making sure the data we're putting out on our podcast
19:47is backed.
19:48So I'm checking with the MBA a lot more
19:49than I have in the past.
19:50Is this really, what do you see?
19:51You're getting the different perspectives on it.
19:53But the most important part is get out
19:55and grow as a professional.
19:57If you don't, you're gonna find yourself
19:59at a real disadvantage,
20:00and probably should get out of the business.
20:02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:03I don't view flight to quality
20:06and professionalization as a bad thing.
20:07No, no.
20:09I think it helps everybody.
20:10It helps the consumer, right?
20:11It helps the consumer.
20:12They get better advice.
20:13So we'll wrap up with this question.
20:16What do you think the housing executive
20:21that is still in the game,
20:23still wants to be in the game, wants to grow,
20:26what do you think they should be paying
20:27the closest attention to right now?
20:30Well, as I said earlier, cost.
20:31If you're not getting your cost down,
20:33I'll give you a dollar amount
20:35of someone that I mentioned to you last night,
20:38is Pavan at Angel AI.
20:41Has got his cost to originate a funded closed loan
20:45on a wholesale basis down to $150.
20:50Wow, yeah.
20:51Think about that.
20:52That's serious.
20:53That is serious, and he's been doing it.
20:54I met him when he was 11 years old.
20:56I used to sell loans to his dad.
20:58And in comes Pavan, and he was a computer savant.
21:01He started doing calculation.
21:03I didn't stay in touch with him.
21:04I didn't until he, Angel AI, started coming to the surface.
21:08And there's many great systems out there,
21:09but I really believe in that one,
21:11because it's not an LLM.
21:13It's doing it the way he's approaching it,
21:15I think is a good way to go about it, number one.
21:18Number two is, I think it is a tool that reduces cost.
21:23So when that's a real competitive advantage.
21:25Oh, man.
21:26Your costs are that low?
21:27Yeah, well, you think about it.
21:28If I'm spending $3,000 versus a guy that's out there at 150,
21:33he can make money at 150.
21:35He's gonna put that into his pricing.
21:37When you put this in a pricing,
21:38you have a real significant price advantage.
21:41He says he can't do business at those low margins.
21:43Well, actually, he's got pretty healthy margins,
21:46and his prices are lower
21:47than a lot of the competition out there.
21:49So I think number one is a cost.
21:51The other thing is, I'm telling everybody,
21:54focus in on data as it relates to realtors.
21:57And RealTrends, which you guys have,
21:59the data that HousingWire's putting out now,
22:02have the privilege of having
22:03a really great friendship with Clayton.
22:05And you guys are focusing in on data.
22:07And what lenders need to do is start focusing in
22:10and train their loan officers to start,
22:12instead of just shotgunning and going all out,
22:15we need to zero in on the realtor
22:18that is doing the business and those percentages.
22:23I think, again, it was in Brian's session that came out.
22:27Yeah, I think it's gonna be 5% of agents
22:29do 95% of business this year.
22:31Exactly right.
22:32And it's the agents that are getting,
22:34when it comes to real estate agents,
22:36I've seen those that are being really skillful
22:38in how to market that home.
22:40I'm putting my house on the market right now.
22:42We interviewed four realtors.
22:43What a stark contrast.
22:45I went with two millennial, new in the industry
22:48because they have a real good reputation
22:50at social media marketing.
22:52I went with two veterans.
22:54We went with one of the veterans
22:55because they don't do social media marketing,
22:57I'm sure you're currently well,
22:58but they hired someone that is really, really good at it.
23:01So just because you're a veteran,
23:03it's most important to get really good
23:06at the new world of marketing and social media.
23:09That's the way it's gonna be.
23:10Well, Dave, incredible to catch up with you, as always.
23:14Really a pleasure for me to have this conversation with you.
23:17Thank you so much.
23:18You bet, appreciate being here.