On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Courtenay Dunn, Senior Director of Government Affairs at ICE, about GSE reform, deregulation and housing affordability under the Trump administration.
Related to this episode:
Senate confirms Bill Pulte as FHFA director | HousingWire
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/bill-pulte-confirmed-by-senate-as-fhfa-director/
Enjoy the episode!
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate stories. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Related to this episode:
Senate confirms Bill Pulte as FHFA director | HousingWire
https://www.housingwire.com/articles/bill-pulte-confirmed-by-senate-as-fhfa-director/
Enjoy the episode!
The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate stories. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome, everyone. My guest today is Courtney Dunn, Senior Director of Government Affairs
00:11at ICE to talk about GSE reform, deregulation, housing affordability, and more. I want to
00:18thank our sponsor, Optimal Blue, for making this episode possible.
00:22Courtney, welcome to the podcast.
00:24Thank you, Sarah. And welcome to ICE Experience. Thank you for coming out and supporting us
00:27this year.
00:28It's been amazing. Lots of great sessions, but also lots of great time to talk with people.
00:35And the vendors that we've gotten to meet in the Expo Hall, you know, just everything
00:40has been really great. So, and lots of fun parties, too, of course, in Vegas. So, thanks
00:45for sitting down with us, especially at this time. I think a lot of people, I know you
00:48are a hot commodity. People are, like, wanting to ask you things, and I want to ask you some
00:53of the same things. So, let's start at the top and talk about GSE reform. It's something
00:57that I think a lot of lenders are, like, where are we in that? What do we expect in that?
01:02So, how do you answer when people ask you about GSE reform?
01:05Sure. So, you're right. This is a topic of conversation that's been around Washington,
01:09D.C. really since the beginning of the conservatorships. And I think what we've seen from the Trump
01:13administration at this point is that it's obviously been acknowledged, I think, that
01:18the Trump administration takes the position that the conservatorships were never intended
01:22to last forever. However, we've heard from Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, Senate Banking
01:28Chairman Tim Scott, other leaders in the Trump administration that right now there are other
01:35very important and timely issues they want to take care of before they'll enter into
01:40a deeper discussion about what some type of exit may look like. So, for example, this
01:45week we were just discussing that there's a continuing resolution. The House has just
01:50passed. So, the sentence lays our focus on that. Then we'll have a little bit of a break.
01:54And remember, we still don't even have all the agency heads in place. So, while the FHWA
02:01director nominee Bill Pulte is ahead of hearing, his vote has not been scheduled, although
02:05I believe they did file for that vote. And we might see that maybe sometime in April.
02:10But until all of those pieces fall into place, I think the administration is ready to focus
02:15on the other top-of-the-day items that they're addressing right now.
02:20That's helpful to think about even just a timeline. Like you said, if you don't have
02:24those things at least in place or on paper, then there's probably not anything that's
02:29going to happen before that. And I think one of the things that is so hard for industry
02:34is just uncertainty, right?
02:37Right.
02:38So, what question do you get asked the most when people are like, what's happening in
02:41Washington? What are they most concerned about?
02:44I think from, certainly from an experience perspective, one of the questions I've had
02:48a lot this week is about the regulatory process. Where do regulations stand? I've received
02:53a lot of questions about many of the executive orders that have been issued. So, I think
02:58it's helpful to sort of take a quick look at where we stand. So, as we just discussed,
03:02there's several agency heads that are not in place yet. So, we don't have an idea maybe
03:08just yet of where their policies will be headed. But we do know that Trump has issued several
03:13executive orders related to just the regulatory review process. So, there's a couple that
03:18I find notable that I think our colleagues in the mortgage and banking industry will
03:23find relevant. First, there was an order that directed all of the banking regulators to
03:33issue when they issue a notice of proposed rulemaking to a company that notice for a
03:38new regulation with a list of 10 that can be walked back. There was a subsequent executive
03:44order that also directed all the agency heads to review by April 20th and report back to
03:50all the agencies, report back their agency heads to the administration, the DOJ team,
03:56of the regulations they have. There was a list of seven criteria that related to the
03:59cost of the regulation, any barriers to modernization and technology, different topics like that
04:05that have been priorities on issues Trump has campaigned on, and to report back on those
04:10regulations. I suspect that information will be taken in and then reviewed. And then the
04:15third one that I also found interesting was about just the regulatory process for all
04:20of these agencies. The order indicates that the new regulations that will be proposed
04:26will not only go through OIRA, but will also be reviewed in conjunction with the OMB. So,
04:32that's a little bit different step than we've seen in the past. Again, this was one of the
04:35executive orders that was just issued in February. And I think, again, until we get heads in
04:40at CFPB, FHFA, we don't know how all of that will play out. But I think those are some
04:46distinctions that are a little bit different from what we've seen in regulation in the
04:49past. And we'll see how those play out as to certain policy proposals. But I can tell
04:54you one focus that Trump had had during his campaign. And just last week, the Treasury
05:00Secretary was at the Economic Club in New York and spoke to this, is a real focus of
05:04this administration on deregulation. The responsible regulation by what they've indicated is maybe
05:13a reprivatization, certainly in the domestic economic policy front. I do think that's a
05:19focus of this administration, is to really look at costs versus public benefit of regulation,
05:26to not impede modernization, to really look to technology, to aid markets. So, that's
05:35good news, I think, for a lot of us, certainly here at ICE Experience, and a lot of our clients
05:39and partners who are very interested in how we can help try to reduce the cost of getting
05:44a mortgage, to think of creative ways to make our processes more efficient and transparent
05:52and really, in effect, to bring more life to the American dream of homeownership.
05:57I think that that is, I think everyone in our industry sort of cheered when, you know, just
06:03the deregulation orders came through and not knowing exactly what that looks like for us. But
06:08if you're thinking that you have to, you know, take out 10, or if that's a focus, that's
06:14something that people are very excited about. At the same time, we know that the state
06:20regulation is, in some ways, ramping up. What do you see the states doing in reaction to
06:25what's happening at the federal level?
06:27It's a great point, Sarah. I'm glad you brought this up. And we've seen the states become
06:31much more active, I would say, over the past five plus years. I think one of the most evident
06:36examples would be the privacy regimes. So, of course, we saw California stand up and enact
06:42their own privacy regime. I think there has been a theme throughout a variety of states
06:48across the country of picking up issues that are important to their constituents, to people
06:55who live in their states as a perceived reaction to maybe a paralysis in Congress, to act on
07:01certain issues that are very important, but have been a little bit more difficult to get a
07:0650-state consensus on at the federal level. So we've seen a lot of activity in consumer
07:10finance. I mentioned privacy. We have seen some states go ahead and tackle the issue of
07:15AI and AI regulation at the state level. And then I would also note that we've seen the
07:21attorneys general become more active. So, again, my reminder for everyone has been that
07:27these laws are all very relevant. Certainly in the mortgage industry, we're all very well
07:31aware that there's a federal, state and local regime for those of us that we do business
07:36with. And this is more important than ever to be aware of those changes and to understand
07:41how they impact all of our businesses.
07:43So I remember in the first Trump administration, you had NYDFS, for instance, right?
07:47New York Department of Financial Services, I think, that they really stepped up and
07:52they're like, you know, sort of felt like, OK, we're going to fill the void.
07:55Whether there was a void to fill or not is another question.
07:58So when you talk about state attorneys general, is that separate from those separate
08:04departments that might pop up for financial services?
08:07Sure. Yes. Thank you for highlighting that.
08:09So, yes, it is different.
08:10And the New York DFS has been very on the cutting edge.
08:14They're very interested in technology.
08:15And again, I think their base of constituents in New York are technology, their
08:19businesses. So these states also want to enable companies to do business in their states.
08:25We've certainly seen a lot of movement on that front of companies moving to different
08:30states that they may feel may be more business friendly, that enable them to do the work
08:34that they want to do, maybe be a little bit more innovative.
08:37So, yes, those departments are popping up and they're certainly work in tandem
08:43sometimes with the attorneys general.
08:44But they are separate and have separate functions.
08:47Gotcha. I mean, I think one of the things people would say about the CFPB is just
08:53that that whole kind of like enforcement, regulation by enforcement.
08:57Right. Whereas they would rather have like tell us clearly what we can and cannot do
09:02and don't make us like try to figure out from, you know, a paragraph put out on social
09:07media or like something that they did with a company.
09:10What do you see states doing?
09:11Are they do they tend to be like, we're going to pass these laws?
09:15We're going to do that. Or is it regulation by enforcement at the state level?
09:18The states operate differently, as you know, than the federal level.
09:22And each state legislature is unique, which is what makes tracking the stateside issues
09:28somewhat more more complex in a way, because every state is a different process.
09:32They have a different legislative session.
09:34Some of them meet every year.
09:35Some of them don't. Texas, for instance.
09:37Exactly. And then, of course, I can always call back special sessions.
09:41So they tend to in my experience, the states are very interested in engagement.
09:45They want to meet and hear from people who do business in their states.
09:48Again, all the states want, I think, want to be a place to open business.
09:52And they may have different viewpoints on how regulation should operate.
09:55But there is a very real engagement with all types of different stakeholders who want to
10:01come and participate in their processes.
10:03And we I think the communication about issues that are important to us in mortgage and
10:08housing is really essential as policies are developed to understand how we do business
10:14and really the the operations of obtaining a mortgage, going through the mortgage
10:21finance process, owning a home.
10:23Those are really important. And I think it's it's great.
10:25You know, publications like like yours, Sarah at Housing Wire, really engaging its
10:29readers, making everyone aware of what's going on and coalescing to discuss what what
10:34we think will be best, again, to really help help people get into homes in a time where
10:38the market's been pretty tough.
10:39So, you know, on that very first day that Trump was elected on Inauguration Day, sat
10:45down and did a bunch of executive orders.
10:47And one of the first ones had to do with housing, which was an emergency relief act,
10:51right, to make housing more affordable.
10:53What is it like being being in Washington right now where housing is like is one of the
10:59topics that comes up day one?
11:02And he's also talked a lot about interest rates, right, mortgage rates.
11:05Right. So when when there there have been times, you know, for us covering it where it's
11:09like housing never gets mentioned or it doesn't feel like it's a priority.
11:13What does that look like now?
11:14Yeah, it is a great question.
11:16And I think it's been really interesting to a lot of us who have been around in this
11:20industry for a long time to have seen it really come up even even in the campaigns as
11:24much as it did. So it's I think we're going to see, obviously, as we discussed, more
11:30more policy specific policy matters coming forth as the people take their their seats at
11:35the agencies. They do this sort of like regulatory review.
11:38But I would note that we are, you know, today, in fact, there was a Senate banking
11:42hearing on housing affordability through Senate Banking Chairman Tim Scott.
11:46So they had a variety of different witnesses come in and talk about the different issues.
11:51He's been very dedicated to community banks, you know, opportunity zones.
11:56That is something also you've seen President Trump talk about.
11:59Certainly had Secretary Scott Turner, even Secretary Secretary Besant talking about the
12:05importance of community and regional banks.
12:07How can we use opportunity zones?
12:09As we know, Secretary Turner was in the prior administration where that was a big focus.
12:13And that's something that Senator Scott has always been laser focused on.
12:17So I think we'll see more interest in how can we enable these banks to serve our local
12:22communities? How can we really dig in at these local levels to address these acute
12:28affordability issues? Because while different regions of the country have different types
12:32of issues, really, this is an issue that has affected all Americans.
12:35Well, it's also housing affordability is part of the mission of Fannie and Freddie.
12:40It's part of, you know, it's central to the goals that different government agencies
12:46have. So no matter who's in the White House, right, those things stay constant.
12:51Agreed. Housing affordability would be one of them.
12:53Some of those things, though, they flex a little bit.
12:55So when I think about the PAVE Task Force, right, which is on appraisal bias, where are
13:01we with that? Is that dead in the water?
13:03Is that still something that people are talking about and doing?
13:07Sure. So the PAVE Task Force itself has has ended and that ended during the Biden
13:12administration and they had promulgated in connection with the other banking agencies
13:17rules related to property valuations.
13:20And some of those rules were set to go into effect in October of this year, October
13:23twenty twenty five. And I suspect there will be a review of those.
13:27You know, there's different types of procedural tools that can be used for certain types
13:31of laws that were passed or or regulations.
13:34But I think what's also important from the folks that I talk to in our industry and
13:39clients and the people I work with in D.C.
13:43is that a lot of us want to, like you said, be able to understand the rules.
13:48But there's a lot of good that's being done now to identify how can we more accurately,
13:54for example, value properties?
13:56How can we use technology?
13:57How can we use data to make these processes better?
14:00And we don't need to wait for regulation to do that.
14:03We can innovate on that now.
14:04And a lot of people here, we've been this has been an issue we've talked about here at
14:08Ice Experience. A lot of our clients are talking about this.
14:11So we don't need to wait for the government to set regulations to go ahead and make these
14:15processes better, because really, we all want to everybody wants to to compete with one
14:21third consumers, their clients that come to them.
14:23We want to make mortgages with them and do business.
14:25And that kind of competition begets better prices for consumers and better products.
14:30And the more accurate and the better they are.
14:31That doesn't matter what's happening in Washington, D.C.
14:34or any of the stateside regulations.
14:35Our clients want to do that. We want to help people, certainly enable them to comply with
14:39the laws, but to also just do their business better, regardless of what the law is.
14:44So if you're a lender out there and you're in the situation where you know those those
14:47PAVE rules are going to supposed to go into effect in the fall, but probably going to
14:52be pulled back, like have people already started that process?
14:55Do you feel like people are kind of like on hold with that, those specific things?
15:00I think there are people who have already who already had been looking at their
15:04processes now.
15:06There also had been some some lawsuits and a variety of other issues around some of
15:10these practices. And I think, again, in the industry recognize this is a place that's
15:14probably ripe for some modernization.
15:17So there are again, there always be everyone has a different tolerance for for their
15:22adoption and how they do it.
15:23But really largely, I think it's a conversation that continues to be had.
15:26In fact, two weeks ago, FHFA had held its annual appraisal workshop and they have
15:32representatives from all across the appraisal and valuation industry to talk about
15:37modernization, modernization that's going on at Fannie and Freddie, importantly also.
15:41So a lot of these fair lending laws are still on the books.
15:45Everyone's aware of that and the modernization is still taking place as well as
15:49should. So tell us a little bit about Scott Turner.
15:52He's a person that, you know, worked with Ben Carson before.
15:56Right. So do you feel like this we're going to see a HUD that is very similar to what we
16:01saw in Trump one?
16:03I think he is laser focused on ensuring a few things, addressing the cost of home
16:09ownership. He is at the ground running.
16:11He is out talking to people on the ground.
16:13He's been to a few of the disaster zones and again, is really focused on the opportunity
16:18in Opportunity Zone.
16:19So I think he's going to take his time to understand, take in everything that's that's
16:23going on, what he has, look at the teams at HUD, how to best effectuate, again, maybe
16:29some of this deregulation and hope to address some of the costs of home ownership,
16:33certainly. And he is a lot.
16:34They have a lot on their plate at HUD to address across the various markets, not just
16:39obviously residential.
16:40So I think they'll be doing that.
16:42And as they get people into seats again, I think we'll be able to see to see more
16:46specific issues arise out of those.
16:49And I fully expect that we're going to hear a lot more from him soon and we're all
16:52looking forward to it. So, you know, I remember back to last spring and a series of
17:00conferences from the stage of like an MBA, for instance, they were talking about a
17:04housing czar. And I think part of this is because there was just frustration that it's
17:08like housing is an issue that needs to be solved, housing affordability, just some of
17:13these things. And it was like, you know, we need a housing czar.
17:16And at that time, I interviewed a few people from HUD and be like, is that you?
17:20Is that do you do you think in your own mind, you know, do we still need a housing czar?
17:24Do you feel like is there any talk of that in Washington at this point or is it more
17:28like we're tackling housing?
17:30It's just not going to be through one person.
17:32Sure. We had all heard some of the what I call the cocktail chitchat about about the
17:37housing czar and that had been floated by some in our industry.
17:40And there was some some palace intrigue about who that might be.
17:44I think the reality is, though, there are a lot of people who do address that issue
17:48throughout the White House. Obviously, we have people that will serve the National
17:51Economic Council who are also involved in that.
17:54We have the HUD secretary.
17:56They're all very involved and dedicated to that.
17:58So I'm not sure if we, per se, need one specific person.
18:02But I do think that the administration has articulated an effort to maybe have more
18:08conversation between regulators, because on my end, I think that the concern I hear from
18:13those in the industry is if we have some type of rules or initiatives or proposals
18:18that that seemingly conflict when they come from different agencies.
18:22So I think the more collaboration and conversation there are across any
18:27administration, but across all the agencies to sort of understand how those pieces work
18:30together will give our industry a little bit more security to say, OK, I don't I'm not
18:36going to have three different regimes that I have to comply with.
18:39And maybe I don't really understand how that works.
18:41That's such a great point.
18:43I attended the FHFA's text print last last summer.
18:47And as different groups would come up and present like, hey, this is this is our idea.
18:52There was a panel of judges.
18:53And in more than one case, in several cases, they were like, that's a great idea.
18:58How are you going to just how are you going to rectify the fact that that's fine with
19:02this agency? But this agency says you can't do that.
19:05And just just the bottleneck that is present within the interagency.
19:11Right. For somebody who's really trying to innovate, for instance, is it really was
19:17brought home to me through that exercise.
19:18I was just like, man, there's just so much.
19:20I think that's part of what is trying to be solved right now.
19:23Right. And I think there is some interest in engaging as these new agencies are getting
19:27their legs under them. In fact, I saw a notice today from the OCC about its office hours
19:32for technology. So they've been a web acting director, Rodney Hood, over at the OCC right
19:37now and is very dedicated to financial inclusion and modernization and ensuring that
19:42there is the proper risk management controls in place and how technology will play a
19:47role in those issues.
19:48So I think they're all gathering information from every everyone who who's willing to
19:54to share with them. And that will probably and hopefully color some policies going
19:58forward. Maybe Mark Calabria is our housing czar.
20:02So he's he's over at OMB.
20:03And unusually there, Trump has said, you know, he really wants to pull a lot of what
20:09were formerly independent agencies sort of under OMB, or at least there's a process
20:14where like whatever they decide has to be run through OMB, which is different.
20:17I think that would be interesting to look at to see what happens there.
20:20Sure. And we have that, I believe, referring to one of the executive orders.
20:24So we will we'll see how that that plays out going forward as the agencies start to
20:29interact with each other.
20:30And if there's an opportunity to to look at some of the regulatory processes that make
20:35them more efficient across a variety of agencies, then I think most people would welcome
20:39that. So let's take a step back and go, you know, if you're out there running a
20:44business, I think one of the things that's been so different about the first couple
20:48months of this administration is just how or not even a couple of months yet.
20:53Right. Say six weeks is just how fast things are moving.
20:57It's the velocity of change.
20:58It's the uncertainty.
21:00What do you tell people who are like, I don't know what's happening or it feels like I
21:03have to, you know, I can't keep up or, you know, how do I run my business this way or
21:08what what advice would you give to them as someone who is like right in the thick of
21:11it?
21:12It's hard to believe, but as you've alluded to, we're not even past our first 100 days
21:16yet. So we're only about halfway through that process.
21:19The administration came in very prepared.
21:21They had a lot of issues that they campaigned on, they're executing on them, and they
21:24came in very prepared to move forward on a lot of those issues.
21:27So, again, I think we're steady as she goes.
21:31You know, a lot of us are, you know, the same the same from a regulatory point of view,
21:36the same fair lending laws and other statutes are on the books and people can, you
21:41know, will want to continue to do business and abide by those processes that they have.
21:45And it's always hard to tell.
21:48I'm not going to guess what certainly what may happen in the market, but people want to
21:52be prepared to to do business and serve their customers whenever whenever they're
21:57they're ready to. And I think in the meantime, maybe keep an eye out for what are the
22:02top issues that should be communicated to these agencies.
22:05So in D.C., of course, we have our trade associations and others who are sort of
22:10gathering their lists of OK.
22:12For example, we a lot of the industry was engaged on the
22:17REGEX revision proposal at CFPB.
22:19And a lot of the feedback I had received was that there were some modernizations,
22:25particularly following covid and what we learned during the covid years that could
22:30help in modernization of some of the processes and that there were
22:35lenders and servicers who who would like to have that conversation.
22:38So I think it's important to think about we will have some fresh eyes on some of these
22:42issues, but there may be opportunities to engage, to talk about what has worked, what
22:46has not worked, what would be helpful to the industry.
22:49As you alluded to earlier, it's always more helpful when there's a process where you
22:54can have some engagement as opposed to maybe receiving regulations or some
22:59types of notices that are that are maybe unclear.
23:01People want to understand the rules and they want to follow the law.
23:05And I think when there's collaboration across the industry, it works well for all of us
23:08to understand how our different pieces fit together.
23:10So I do think there's an opportunity for that, that that our industry can look forward
23:14to. And again, I know our leaders in Washington that that work at our trade associations
23:18are and others are preparing for that.
23:20And that will be good, good engagement when that that comes time.
23:24So everyone needs to stay engaged with the advocacy groups and let let things
23:29be known that they're thinking about the challenges they have, what they hope to
23:34see out of Washington. I know there's some very specific things happening.
23:38So it's always good to make your voice heard.
23:39And I'll put in a little plug in here for housing.
23:42Of course, this is what we this what we do day in and day out.
23:45We are dedicated to trying to get that information that's ever changing, that
23:50changes so fast out to the audience.
23:52But I'm so glad to have you on, Courtney.
23:55Thank you so much for joining me today.
23:56Thank you, Sarah. You're all doing a great job.
23:58Again, we appreciate being here at iXperience and look forward to continuing the
24:01conversation. Absolutely.