A day after the Punjab Police's crackdown on farmers, Congress MPs from the state slammed Punjab Chief Minister Bhagwant Mann for the action.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Let's raise some of the big questions that story evokes.
00:04Has the farmer protest lost its focus?
00:08Will there be any attempt to meet the farmer's demands or is it now too late?
00:12What next really for these farmer protests that have blocked the politics of this country
00:16in Punjab and beyond for several years now?
00:19I'm joined by Yogendra Yadav, co-founder of Swaraj India.
00:22Remember, he was one of the driving forces when these first protests took place in 2020.
00:27I'm also joined by Sunny Singh Aluwalia, spokesperson of the Aam Aadmi Party in Punjab.
00:32I want to turn to you, Yogendra Yadav, first.
00:34The images that we saw yesterday were of the farmer protests being disrupted, bulldozers
00:39being used, the protest sites being broken apart.
00:44What's your sense of it?
00:45Is it that now the farmers have lost public goodwill and therefore a government can get
00:50away by doing what they could not have countenanced three or four years ago when the Modi government
00:56tried it?
00:58Now, we don't see that same kind of anger and outrage.
01:06Not really, Rajdeep.
01:07The history of farmer's movement tells us that farmer's movement does reach a point
01:12where it looks as if what you're describing is true, but then it revives again.
01:17Let us not forget that this particular agitation which has been going on now for 14 months
01:22is not a united agitation by the entire Sanyukt Kisan Morcha.
01:27It was only one section of Sanyukt Kisan Morcha which called itself Sanyukt Kisan Morcha Non-Political.
01:34They had launched it and an overwhelming majority of farmer's unions of the Sanyukt Kisan Morcha
01:39had actually stayed away from it.
01:41So it's not the entire farmer's movement.
01:43But it's very heartening to note that in reaction to this, both the unions have come together.
01:49Sanyukt Kisan Morcha has issued a statement this evening saying, we may not be there,
01:55but we will not tolerate this.
01:57There is no doubt, Rajdeep, that this was causing enormous inconvenience to public.
02:02I've been there, I've crossed it.
02:03I know what people are telling your reporters is true.
02:05There was enormous inconvenience.
02:07While we notice the inconvenience, we forget why is it that the inconvenience was being
02:12caused.
02:13It was being caused because the central government and dare I say even the state government did
02:18not show the political will to address it.
02:21In the case, so there are three questions here.
02:23One to the central government.
02:25Why were you not so serious even for 13 months?
02:28Why did you have to wait for fast unto death by Dalai Lama to begin to even notice and
02:34start a negotiation?
02:36And why are you not serious about negotiations six weeks every time, tarikh pe tarikh?
02:42The question to Aam Aadmi Party would be, you took one stand.
02:46You said farmers were completely justified in doing what they were doing.
02:50And overnight you changed your stand.
02:52Did the chief minister even make an appeal?
02:55What you are saying today, was it said by the government even two days ago?
02:59Did the chief minister appeal to the farmers to please move away?
03:03Did he hold negotiations with the farmers?
03:05And did the Punjab government do what Punjab government could have done?
03:09Remember, on the 5th of March, the Sayyidat Kisan Morcha went to, wanted to go to Chandigarh
03:14and demand of the Aam Aadmi Party government things that Punjab government could have done.
03:19They did not allow even that.
03:21And the question for farmers movement is, can the farmers movement repeat the same strategy,
03:27the same tactics, the same mode of protest every time?
03:31And the even bigger question is, can farmers struggle achieve its objective when it is
03:37not united?
03:39That to me is the largest question that we face today.
03:42I'm going to come to that largest question in a moment, whether the farmers can achieve
03:46their objectives.
03:48But Sunny Singh Aluwalia, spokesperson Aam Aadmi Party, as Yogendra Yadav is mentioning,
03:54both, when the Modi government did not implement, for example, the legal guarantee on minimum
03:59support price, among others, criticized the Modi government.
04:03Now the shoe is on your foot and it's your government which is being accused of not doing
04:06enough to reach out to the farmers.
04:08Instead, you've used the bulldozers to break their agitation.
04:12Definitely, Rajdeep sir, as Yadav sir has already said, there are many other unions
04:18in Punjab.
04:19There are many organizations out of which some of the seniors are Balbir Singh Rajewal
04:24sahib and the Ugrahan group.
04:26They have clearly mentioned that we are not going to stop any of the national highways
04:31going in or going out of the Punjab.
04:33So one thing is very clear, they are divided on this.
04:37Their stand is clear that this fight is between the center and the farmers.
04:42It is not between the state and the farmers.
04:44Yes, the Sardar Bhagwan Singh Maan from the very first day said that we are with the farmers.
04:49We stand with the farmers.
04:50We are the party which came out of the agitation only.
04:52We are not against any agitation.
04:54But he walked out of a meeting with the farmers, sir, with due regard.
04:57The same Bhagwan Maan who said that we are with the farmers walked out with a meeting
05:01with the farmers a few weeks ago in the chief minister's secretariat.
05:05So when you are in power, then you don't reach out to them when you are in the opposition.
05:09You use the farmers to come to power.
05:11But at the same time, Rajdeep sir, we have requested many times to just open one side
05:17of the border.
05:18We are requesting them.
05:19The chief minister has been requesting them again and again.
05:22And if after the again request, they said we want to block one more road which is coming
05:26towards the Chandigarh and we want to enter Chandigarh for the same protest, the fight
05:31is between the center.
05:32They are not letting us, the farmers, build.
05:33They are not letting us, they are giving up the MSP.
05:36They are releasing the farmer bills in some other way by making a new agriculture policy,
05:41which is against the farmers.
05:43We are standing here because we are also the son of farmers.
05:46Our chief minister is a son of farmer.
05:48He knows what is right and what is wrong.
05:50But at the same time, we are against the highways.
05:52We want to make Punjab a Rangla Punjab.
05:55And we are requesting the same to the farmers again and again.
05:58But by saying that we have done this overnight, it is not true.
06:00We have been requesting them.
06:03You know, given what you are hearing, Yogendra Yadav, this reveals the predicament of any
06:06government in dealing with the farmers also particularly because as was just suggested
06:11by Mr. Aluwalia, many of the farmers' unions are themselves divided.
06:14How do you then achieve the objective if your objective is a legal guarantee for MSP, which
06:18increasingly looks difficult to achieve?
06:21Having taken that maximalist position, are the farmers' unions now being given a bit
06:26of a reality check in Punjab last night?
06:29And dare I say, by the centre also?
06:36I wouldn't agree with that, Rajdeep.
06:39I think the experience of farmers' struggle tells us that farmers have to fight three
06:44or four times to achieve one big demand and MSP is not going to be a small demand.
06:49I keep saying, pehli baar sunane ke liye, doosri baar manwane ke liye, teesri baar manivhi
06:55baat ko likhwane ke liye aur chauthi baar likhivi baat ko lagu karwane ke liye.
07:00So farmers have to fight for four times for one single demand, MSP demand.
07:05Farmers are taking big strides and you would see even bigger agitations in times to come.
07:10My unease with what Aam Aadmi Party has done, my disappointment and sadness is, number one,
07:16because there's an element of clock and dagger in what was done last night.
07:20I mean, remember, Mr. Jagjit Singh Dalewal, etc. had gone for a meeting with them for
07:26a negotiation.
07:27When you go out to Chandigarh for negotiation, on the way back, you are nabbed, you are arrested.
07:33I mean, these are kind of games which governments who are anti-farmers play.
07:38And obviously, the Punjab farmers now feel that the Bhagawant Maan government is doing
07:42exactly what anti-farmers government do.
07:44That's one.
07:46Number two, Punjab government could have done a number of things for Punjab farmers for
07:52which the Sanyukta Kisan Morcha, including the leaders that my friend from Aam Aadmi
07:56Party mentioned, they wanted to go to Chandigarh and present to the Chief Minister those demands.
08:01Why were they not allowed?
08:02These were not demands from central government.
08:05As far as MSP is concerned, I do think that the effect of this particular incident would
08:10be that various factions of Sanyukta Kisan Morcha will come together to launch even a
08:16bigger struggle.
08:17Rajdeep, I can tell you on this show, the country is preparing for an even bigger farmers
08:24movement than what we witnessed two years ago in Delhi.
08:28You know, you're saying that, but the truth of the matter is there are those who believe
08:31that the farmers movement has lost its momentum, that this is now confined to a pocket of Punjab
08:36and even the tactics being used are, as you said, you admitted at the outset, are leaving
08:41a lot of people inconvenienced.
08:43And therefore, there isn't the same level of sympathy or empathy for the farmers that
08:47there was four years ago.
08:53I mean, you can't repeat the same tactics, the same format of struggle every time.
08:58And obviously, there is a room for farmers movement to think their strategy, tactics.
09:03After all, there is a large public sympathy for farmers and farmers should not do anything
09:07which would lose them the sympathy.
09:08So yes, all these tactics need to be worked out.
09:11But here we are discussing the manner in which the state government has responded and which
09:16I think leaves a lot to be desired.
09:19I would have expected this from a BJP government, not from an Aam Aadmi Party government.
09:23And that's a question so many people would be asking in Punjab.
09:27Farmers do need to ask this question, how do we create a struggle for MSP, which is
09:33not confined only to the few states of North India, because after all, the real beneficiaries
09:38of MSP will be farmers in Bihar, in Eastern UP, in other parts of the country.
09:44How to involve them and how to do a larger united struggle, that remains the principal
09:50challenge.
09:51But at the moment, right now, we should not assume that this challenge cannot be met in
09:55future.
09:57I want to Mr. Aluwale, a final word.
09:59Are you again willing to reach out to the farmers or have you taken this approach ki
10:03ab baut ho gaya?
10:04We've gone far enough.
10:05We are now going to try and break this struggle.
10:07Is that the approach now of the Maan government?
10:09No, no, Rajdeep sir, one thing is very clear.
10:12We are always open to talks to the farmers.
10:14It is not at all a problem when the chief minister is ready to talk at every time, when
10:18our ministers are sitting with them, then what is the fun of holding a dharna on the
10:22roads, when we are directly talking to you?
10:24Why you want to hold a dharna?
10:25Why you want to hold a protest when the government is with you?
10:28Why you are against the government?
10:29The demands which they have asked to us, increasing the sugarcane price, increasing the uninterrupted
10:34electricity, increasing the compensation, everything has been agreed by the Punjab chief
10:39minister.
10:40Then what is the use of putting a dharna against the state which is standing with you?
10:44Why the farmers are divided on these issues?
10:46Okay, let me leave it there.
10:48Clearly, you're questioning the methods, but there is a larger question whether the Punjab
10:52government has bitten more than they can chew.
10:54The same government which came to power in a way promising to meet all the farmer's demands
10:59now suddenly finds itself being accused of breaking the farmer's movement.
11:03Yogendra Yadav, Mr. Aluwalia, I appreciate you joining us on that big developing story.