The Punjab government has cleared farmers' protest camps at the Punjab-Haryana border, detaining hundreds of protesters and farm leaders.
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00:00Punjab government's big crackdown on protesting farmers.
00:09Shambu Khanauri protest sites cleared.
00:13JCBs got in to clear tents.
00:18Hundreds of protesting farmers evicted.
00:24Top farm leaders detained.
00:30Highways opened.
00:34A clear shift in AAP government's policy on protesting farmers.
00:40Chief Minister Bhagwant Maan, once a mediator, now ordering the crackdown.
00:47AAP sided with farmers in Delhi, now coming down heavy on them in Punjab.
00:54Ludhiana by-polls reason for sudden U-turn on farmers by Aam Aadmi Party.
01:00Local feedback suggests business is suffering due to protest. Is that the main reason?
01:08Farmers cry backstabbed by AAP.
01:13Congress claims AAP-BJP nexus.
01:17AAP claims take protest to centre and not squat in Punjab.
01:24The big farm face-off, AAP hypocrisy exposed.
01:28Top focus at 7pm.
01:59Why? All of this answers up next.
02:08Punjab government clears Kisan protest camps at borders.
02:11Protest tents bulldozed.
02:13Nearly 700 farmers detained.
02:15Farm leaders to stage protest today.
02:22Over 84 rioters arrested in Nagpur riots case.
02:25Cops claim no religious text on Chadar that was burnt.
02:28Over 140 provocative social media posts identified.
02:32The riots started at the back of a rumour.
02:40Salary hike for Neta's bill in Karnataka assembly.
02:43Bill seeks 100% pay hike for MLAs and CM plush allowances for MLCs.
02:48Whip and other Netas. BJP mocks Rahul's Khatakhat model.
02:56AI chat box. Grok under scrutiny for Hindi slangs.
03:00IT minister writes to ex over Grok abuses.
03:03Centre seeks probe on Grok's Hindi abuses.
03:11US deports Indian student over support to Hamas.
03:15Post-doctoral student Badar Khan Suri sent back earlier.
03:19Rajini Srivastava self-deported herself.
03:26Big strike on Red Terror.
03:2713 Axels killed in two encounters of Chhattisgarh.
03:37Top focus is the curious case of a possible U-turn in terms of strategy
03:42when it comes down to the Aam Aadmi Party vis-a-vis protesting farmers.
03:46A late night crackdown which has been happening for the last couple of days
03:50resulted in a big crackdown on farmers protesting at the Punjab-Haryana borders.
03:55The side which belongs to Punjab till now was completely undisturbed
03:59since February last year where at least 500 farmers were squatting there.
04:05However, the Punjab government and the Punjab police cracked down last night.
04:10Lots of farmers were detained.
04:12Two farm protest sites were cleared overnight by over 3,000 police personnel
04:17and multiple JCBs.
04:19The Punjab government claims the farmers' protest is hurting the state's economy
04:23while the opposition accuses the Aam Aadmi Party government of hypocrisy in the Kisan cause.
04:41High drama at the Punjab-Haryana borders.
04:45At least 500 to 700 farmers detained in a late night crackdown.
04:52Tens of farmers protesting since February last year bulldozed.
04:59Dharnaas at the Shambhu and Kanori borders are protested swiftly
05:03by 3,000 security personnel and multiple JCBs.
05:15Farmer leaders like Jagjit Singh Dallewal, who were fasting for the Kisan cause, were also detained.
05:23The Punjab government cracked down on unsuspecting farmers
05:26soon after the protesters held talks with the centre.
05:45The government is not doing the right thing.
05:48They've given the government a hard time.
05:50Next time they won't even give a single vote to the farmers.
05:59The state border, once swarmed with farmers, is now empty.
06:04The last blocks being moved away by Aam Aadmi Party government in Punjab.
06:09Many would see this as a very unpopular move,
06:13especially acting against the farmer.
06:17The late night crackdown on farmers put the spotlight
06:20on the Aam Aadmi Party government in Punjab,
06:22which had backed the Kisan cause earlier.
06:26Now Bhagwan Taman government defends the crackdown,
06:29claiming that the protests harmed Punjab's economy.
06:33Farmers are repeatedly requested to protest,
06:37but not to block the national highway.
06:46The central government should be the one to ask for the right place.
06:49Whether it's Delhi or anywhere else,
06:51the central government should listen to them and give an answer.
06:54Blocking the road in Punjab harms the farmers.
07:02This led to backlash from the Congress, the Kali Dal and the BJP.
07:06Why are you doing this?
07:08You are dividing the cities and villages.
07:12This is not fair to us.
07:14Under a conspiracy, the entire farmers are being attacked in Punjab.
07:19Big armies are standing there.
07:22The farmers are being stabbed in the back.
07:25The farmers are being killed.
07:29Leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi joined protests outside parliament
07:33over the Punjab government's crackdown on the farmers.
07:36Congress or the BJP, whatever they say,
07:39sometimes they unite, sometimes they separate.
07:41They have no principles.
07:43They never want the farmers to prosper.
07:47The farmers are now threatening wider protests
07:50against Bhagwan Taman, crying betrayal.
07:54But so far, the Chief Minister remains silent on the late night crackdown.
07:59With Kamaljeet Sandhu, Aseem Bassi, Aman Bhardwaj, Bureau Report, India Today.
08:07All right, one thing that cannot be missed, which we touched upon earlier,
08:12has been the classic U-turn that the Aam Aadmi Party has taken
08:16on their strategy on how to deal with farmers.
08:19The same Aam Aadmi Party, the same Bhagwan Taman,
08:21who till about six months ago, viewers, was a mediator
08:24between the Punjab government and the centre,
08:27today has turned an aggressor from a mediator, cracking down on farmers.
08:31Why so?
08:32We're just giving you how the Aam Aadmi Party has changed its stance.
08:37In 2020, the Aam Aadmi Party clearly backed the farm protest,
08:41calling them that they were the annadata,
08:45and suddenly how have they turned andolanjivi.
08:48In 2020, you had the Aam Aadmi Party attacking the centre
08:52on mistreating our farmers.
08:54And today, the Aam Aadmi Party Punjab government
08:58has gone ahead and dismantled the tents which were there for a year.
09:02So what has really led to this huge turnaround?
09:06Many would suggest it's an impending election in Ludhiana,
09:09by-polls of Ludhiana as well.
09:12But not just this, the Aam Aadmi Party seemingly,
09:15many would suggest, following the BJP playbook,
09:18nothing to do with farmers.
09:20But if you look at the use of bulldozers as well,
09:23the Punjab police bulldozed two-storey houses of drug peddlers,
09:27something which we have seen or visuals that we have seen play out in Uttar Pradesh.
09:31Visuals that have been questioned by the Supreme Court,
09:34because now there is a ban on using bulldozers.
09:38Having said that, you had the Aam Aadmi Party also roll bulldozers
09:42on the houses of alleged drug mafia members.
09:46And there have been multiple instances,
09:48we're just giving you up the list of instances.
09:51So somewhere down the line is the Aam Aadmi Party
09:53taking the lead from the BJP playbook.
09:55Some questions pertaining to the farm protests that we want to pose.
09:59Are farmers losing people's sympathy?
10:02Because many suggest this is internal feedback that is coming in
10:06from cities like Ludhiana in Punjab,
10:10suggesting that there is a loss of business and one needs to take away.
10:16The blot which many suggest is because of the constant buns by farmers.
10:23The other question that we ask, from plicative to crackdown,
10:26why is there a big shift in the Punjab government strategy?
10:30Number three, Ludhiana by-polls,
10:32is that the main reason for the Aam Aadmi Party government action?
10:36And have governments somewhere down the line
10:38failed to deliver on promises to farmers?
10:41Because the farmers that are still squatting were promised
10:45a certain deliverance by the centre that has not been delivered
10:50and they are still protesting.
10:52Are successive governments though losing patience with farmers?
10:55And ultimately, does India lack a cohesive agriculture policy?
11:00We cut across right now to our panellists this evening,
11:04Ravneet Singh Brar, National Spokesperson, BKU Kadyan Segment,
11:08Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia, Spokesperson Aam Aadmi Party,
11:11Smith Singh Maan, Spokesperson Congress,
11:13Mahesh Inder Singh Grewal, Senior President and Spokesperson,
11:17Shirmani Akalidan.
11:19I want to begin with the unit that is one of the various units
11:23which are going to now try and scale up protests,
11:25Ravneet Singh Brar.
11:26Ravneet Singh Brar, what really happened as per the farmers?
11:30Why the crackdown?
11:34Thank you, ma'am.
11:35Let me start with something like action speaks louder than words.
11:39Earlier, AAP government used to say that we will provide MSP to farmers
11:45within five minutes of coming to government.
11:48But it's been three years.
11:49We were protesting on the borders of this Haryana state,
11:54but we were not blocking the highways or the national highways.
11:58We were sitting on one side of the national highway.
12:01The road was blocked by the administration and by the police forces
12:07from the Haryana side.
12:08We have never blocked the road.
12:10The other thing, the AAP government in Punjab promised us
12:15that we will be the bridge between farmers and the central government.
12:19And we will always be there to fulfill your demands,
12:24whatever demands it will be with our government, the government of Punjab.
12:29But what really happened yesterday?
12:31It was totally the thing which we never expected.
12:35The meeting was called, our leaders went there,
12:38and when they were heading back, it was a backstab, I think,
12:42because we were not expecting that they will do something like this.
12:47The government which was chosen by many farmers of Punjab
12:52who has voted for this government.
12:54But they did backstabbing yesterday.
12:57And the demands earlier, there was a demand, 18 demand charter,
13:02which we came, SKM came to Chandigarh, but it was blocked,
13:07and our leaders were arrested earlier also.
13:10And this is the second time it is happening.
13:13So what government is conveying that we want to win Ludhiana election at any cost.
13:19We don't want any farmers protest there.
13:22So this was the strategy and that's why the breakdown, what all it happened yesterday.
13:27Alright, so basically what you're saying Mr. Barad is,
13:30there is a by-election in Ludhiana, which the AAP is desperate to win.
13:36Ludhiana is an industrial unit area.
13:39There are lots of traders.
13:40They have asked that the roads be open because somewhere down the line,
13:44business is being impacted.
13:46And if the action is not taken against farmers,
13:49then the Aam Aadmi Party will not get the votes.
13:52Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia, that is what the charge is.
13:55And many would suggest, what happened?
13:57Six months ago, you had your Chief Minister Bhagwan Singh Mahan who said,
14:01I am going to be the mediator for farmers.
14:04Today, he's the aggressor.
14:05He's cracking down on the same farmers he wanted to mediate for.
14:08Number one.
14:09Number two, Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia, in 2020,
14:13you have the Aam Aadmi Party who says, where else will the farmers go?
14:17Public areas are meant for squatting, are meant for protest.
14:21Occupying public space is what protest is really all about.
14:25And today you're saying, why are they protesting on the National Highway?
14:28They should go to Delhi.
14:29Why the U-turn, sir?
14:31So, Preeti, thank you very much for giving me the time on your channel.
14:35First of all, I want to make clear that these all demands of farmers
14:40are from the central government, not from the state government.
14:43Yes, Sardar Bhagwan Singh Mahan, on the very first day of forming the government,
14:46said, we will fight for the farmers.
14:49We will talk to the central government and we will,
14:52whatever their demands are, we will try to fulfil their demands.
14:55Now, coming on the Ramneet Barad, sir, and what you were trying to say,
14:59that it has some relation with the Ludhiana election.
15:01It has no relation with the Ludhiana election.
15:04We requested many times to the farmer unions,
15:07and that you should not block the National Highway,
15:09which is the Arota of our, you know, Punjab.
15:12It is the National Highway, from two sides it is blocked.
15:15So, we tried to, you know, negotiate with them many times.
15:18Out of, because there are many organisations in Punjab,
15:22out of that SKM, Sukh Kisan Morcha,
15:25the Rajyewal Sahib and the Ugrahan Sahib,
15:28has always said that we are not going to block the roads.
15:31Right now, on the channel, the SKM representative,
15:35they are trying to say that we are sitting on the side.
15:37No, though they were sitting on the side,
15:39but they were also sitting on the main road.
15:41All tents which have been removed are right on the National Highway.
15:45The area has been cleaned and now the Shambu border is open
15:49for entry and exit to Punjab.
15:51Yes, you can say the demands, which they are telling,
15:54are from the centre.
15:55The MSP, which was promised by the centre government,
15:58has not been fulfilled.
15:59The three black laws, which was taken back,
16:02now has been brought into the circulation
16:05through the different policy, which was rejected in Vidhan Sabha
16:08by the Aam Aadmi Party government.
16:10We are here, we are here because of farmers.
16:13There is no doubt about it.
16:15We are, we know what the farmers have done for India.
16:18How the food bowl, the capital, the Punjab has created,
16:22given the wheat, given the rice, at the right time.
16:24But at the same time, we have to see how we can hold a protest,
16:29but not harming the entry and exit,
16:32not harming the lifeline of Punjab.
16:34So, we requested them many times.
16:36But, Mr. Adewale, before I go to the other spokesperson,
16:40it was exactly the same spot that they were holding for the last one year.
16:44So, nothing really had changed.
16:46So, why suddenly the action?
16:47Because one year, when they were holding the same space,
16:50the Chief Minister wanted to be their mediator.
16:53The Chief Minister stood by them shoulder to shoulder.
16:55What made him cross the line and be the aggressor now?
16:58Definitely, Preeti ji, Chaudhary madam,
17:01if for long time, the talks were not getting cleared up,
17:04we tried to negotiate before also to clear the major roads of Punjab.
17:08We never said that your protest is not, you know, it is not viable,
17:11it is legislative.
17:13We are living in a democratic country and everybody has right to protest.
17:17But that doesn't mean that normal people is affecting lives of traders
17:21or normal people who are entering Punjab.
17:23We cannot let this happen.
17:25So, after repeated request by the Chief Minister of Punjab,
17:28when there was no, you know, solution coming out,
17:31then we have to take this hard step.
17:33Though, we definitely say that we stand with the farmers.
17:35We are here for farmers.
17:37No firing, it was very peaceful.
17:40And we hope that these negotiations and the talks will continue
17:44with the Centre and with the Farmers Association.
17:46But they will not let to block the main roads.
17:48Okay, alright.
17:49I want to bring in Smt. Singh Maan because the Congress right now,
17:52you had Rahul Gandhi who protested outside Parliament
17:54on the action that the Aam Aadmi Party took on farmers.
17:57Because Smt. Singh Maan, what you are alleging and your party is alleging
18:00is a nexus between the BJP and the Aam Aadmi Party.
18:04See, the Aam Aadmi Party is a master of U-turn.
18:08They started as a political party for protest.
18:11They started as a political party born out of protest.
18:14And today they are, basically what they have done is,
18:17they have destroyed people's home,
18:19makeshift homes, they have taken their properties away.
18:22They have backstabbed people who they have called for negotiation.
18:25I think nobody does that.
18:27In the history of the world, it would be rare evil emperors who would have do that.
18:31Call someone for negotiation, arrest them while they are on their way back,
18:34destroy their shelters.
18:36See, Aam Aadmi Party is the first political party in India
18:39to notify the three black laws.
18:41They notified them in Delhi, then they joined the farmers' protest,
18:44they U-turned there.
18:46The Aam Aadmi Party, Mr. Bharat will agree with me,
18:49their minister said before the election 2022
18:53that we will give MSP in a snap.
18:55And we will give MSP on all the decisions.
18:57In 5 minutes, MSP was their claim.
18:59How many years has it been? So, that MSP has not happened.
19:02So, that snap MSP has not happened.
19:04The Aam Aadmi Party has continuously been lying to the people of Punjab,
19:07to the people of India.
19:09See, the road was closed by the Haryana and Punjab administration.
19:13They were trying to make the image of the farmers bad in front of the people of Punjab.
19:18There was a large conspiracy going on.
19:20First, what happened in 2024 elections,
19:22they let the farmers sit there,
19:24they spoke to the Haryana government.
19:26A Punjabi person was shot by the Haryana government.
19:30No action has been taken on that.
19:32The bullets were fired there.
19:34Then the road was closed by both administration.
19:36The image was built that the rural Punjab votes against the BJP,
19:40seeing this protest.
19:41That feeling was created in the whole of state.
19:43Once AAP benefited from that,
19:45they couldn't, they tried, they got only 3 seats,
19:47Congress got 7 seats.
19:48Because they were trying to fool people, they couldn't fool people.
19:50Then the Panchayat elections happened,
19:52they tried to take benefit in that.
19:54And now when the urban elections are coming,
19:55and the Ludhiana elections are coming,
19:57what they are trying,
19:58they have actually made the people of urban Punjab feel,
20:01they have divided Punjab into two parts.
20:03This has never happened.
20:04The first time this happened,
20:05they made people feel that they are not safe in the state.
20:08See, grenade blasts are happening every day here.
20:11A week ago, an army colonel was beaten up,
20:13and now farmers are beaten up.
20:15What is the message we are giving?
20:16That this is all happening in AAP government.
20:19Mahesh Chandra Singh Grewal,
20:21the charge is also that,
20:22like the Congress, the Shirmani Akali Dal
20:25wants to politically exploit the current situation.
20:28Ultimately, the point is that people are suffering,
20:31and that is why the protests can continue.
20:33But Punjab is getting a bad name of being the state of only protests.
20:38No, Preeti, this is not correct.
20:40I take two minutes and I will explain everything.
20:43Hardly the movement was started when the three laws were made,
20:47and the farmers were termed as terrorists, Khalistanis and anti-national.
20:52But that was not the end of the story.
20:56Now, the Aam Aadmi representative sitting here,
20:59the gentleman saying that they are against the blocking of the roads.
21:02I would like to remind him that Mr. Kejriwal,
21:06even as a chief minister, has put a tarna on Janpath
21:11against the leftist governor of Delhi for two days.
21:14As a chief minister, he sat on the road and blocked that road.
21:18Now, the third thing is they supported this farmer movement.
21:23Next is the matter when it came to Supreme Court.
21:27The Punjab government filed an affidavit in the Supreme Court
21:31that it's not the farmers, it's the government of Haryana who has blocked the highway.
21:36Now, the gentleman is saying that we just wanted to clear the highway.
21:41Unfortunate part of this is that since morning,
21:44every AAP representative is saying that business was suffering,
21:49small businessmen were suffering, the industry was suffering.
21:52Gentleman, tell the people of state why you kept quiet for 13 months?
21:58Why one fine evening when you call them for a meeting?
22:02It's a murder of democracy. You detain them and then take action.
22:07It is unheard in a democracy.
22:09And next thing I want to clear it to you,
22:12it may not be taken politically, the talk of the town,
22:15since I am belonging to Ludhiana and I'm based in Ludhiana West
22:21and I contested Ludhiana West that BJP and AAP has joined hands.
22:26But the condition of BJP is that Punjab AAP has to distance itself from Delhi Aam Aadmi Party.
22:35You rightly said that they are following the Punjab UP in drug matter.
22:41Preeti, last thing I want to tell. Preeti, I just want to tell last thing.
22:45You can believe their truth.
22:47They filed an affidavit in the high court in the matters of the demolitions,
22:51what they claim as they are doing for the drug peddlers.
22:54No, they have submitted an affidavit in the high court that it has nothing to do with drugs.
23:00These are the unauthorized construction for which the local bodies have already initiated action.
23:06You can trust them.
23:07They filed the affidavit and then tell lies and they are surpassed even Goebbels.
23:12They feel that people are fool and when they will lie hundred times, people will start believing as it is.
23:18All right. I'll come back to you, Mr. Bharat. I want to bring you back in.
23:20But right before that, just I want to bring back because it's a three against one.
23:24I want to bring in Dr. Sunny Singh Aluwalia back because there are a lot of questions.
23:28Mr. Aluwalia, you had Mr. Bharat say that you have backstabbed farmers.
23:32With every other political commentary in the show and outside suggests that the AAP is ideologically agnostic.
23:41When you, you know, you hunt with the hare and run with the hounds at the same point of time.
23:47You adopt policies when you need to adopt them. Then you take a stand with farmers.
23:51Now you need to win Ludhiana by polls. So, therefore, you are cracking down on farmers.
23:56After the polls, you will try and stand right next to the farmers again.
23:59Preeti ji, the person who were directly involved in bringing the three black laws are sitting on the channel and blaming other political parties for no reasons.
24:10They were the one who signed the farmer bill which was anti-farmers.
24:15The Shromani Kalidhar was the part of the central government at that time.
24:18Now they are blaming us that we are, you know, we are against farmers and we are helping, trying to do something for Ludhiana election.
24:24This is not the truth. The truth is something else.
24:27Why the centre or the Congress, I would rather ask the question, the Congress gentleman very clearly said,
24:34having 99 MPs, they have never raised the voice of farmers in either in Lok Sabha nor even one of them.
24:43And Aam Aadmi Party member parliament are directly, daily, on daily basis are saying,
24:48about the farmers, they have never said why they were sleeping so much time.
24:52At the same time, Shromani Kalidhar, which was the part of the central leadership,
24:58has never said anything to them that rather bringing the laws.
25:02At that time, their chief minister, ex-chief minister Sardar Prakash Singh Badal,
25:06Subbir Singh Badal used to say and the minister in the centre, which was food processing minister,
25:11their Biba ji, Harsimrat Badal, she said these laws are very good.
25:16And then they take the U-turn that no, these laws are bad.
25:19And now they are lecturing us.
25:21I just want to say one thing through your channel, Preeti ji.
25:24We are, right now, also standing with the farmers.
25:28We are fighting for their, you know, whatever their demands, their demands are genuine.
25:34Whatever their demands are from the centre, it is genuine.
25:37But at the same time, the rural development fund, which was given by the centre, has been stopped.
25:42The GST has been stopped. The medical aid has been stopped.
25:46But at the same time, we cannot stop the traders.
25:49We cannot stop the business. We cannot stop the entry of the people to Punjab.
25:53We want to make Rangduda.
25:54I'm going to come back to you.
25:56Mr. Aluwalia, I'll come back to you.
25:58Let me go to Mr. Brar and our other guest, because there are other questions as well.
26:02You have criticised the bulldozer policy of the UP government.
26:06You've adopted it in Punjab.
26:08What's the difference, sir?
26:09I'll come right back.
26:10I want to, you know, get in Mr. Ravneet Singh Brar back into this conversation.
26:15Ravneet Singh Brar, do you agree with the Aam Aadmi Party that, number one, they have assisted you,
26:20they have stood by you, but now there are demands of other people who live in Punjab,
26:25especially the traders who want, you know, open passage, number one.
26:29Number two, your grouses with the centre, take it to the centre.
26:32Why are you, you know, getting your angst and fielding it on the roads of Punjab?
26:38I want to answer one by one.
26:44So, first of all, we don't have any personal grudges with any government.
26:49Whatever we are doing is just for the people of Punjab, for the labourers, for the farmers,
26:54and our demands are totally justified.
26:57As it was said earlier by our, even our respected Mr. CM, even Mr. Aluwalia will be, like, on my side on this thing.
27:07They used to say their demands are very well and very justified.
27:11We stand by them.
27:12So now what happened?
27:13So, second thing, we were not blocking the roads.
27:17We were heading towards our national capital as we were heading to our state capital, Chandigarh.
27:23But who blocked us?
27:25There, the people standing on the other side of the border, that was Haryana government.
27:30And who blocked us to Chandigarh?
27:36It was the government of Punjab.
27:38So, what we are portraying and what we are doing is two different things.
27:43There is a lot of difference between the two, ma'am.
27:45It is being said that I am with the farmers.
27:48If you are with the farmers, then you should have taken the farmers to the centre.
27:54What happened?
27:55If the farmers were so happy in three years, then why would the farmers be on the road today?
28:00They would be sitting at their houses and they would be happy.
28:03Whatever promises the government made to us, not a single promise was fulfilled.
28:07A farmer's agriculture policy was supposed to come, which was supposed to come in the first six months.
28:13Ma'am, it has been in books since three years.
28:16We talked about our loan waiver.
28:19Mr. Kejriwal also talked about it.
28:21There is no talk about it.
28:23So, when it comes to our demands, they are just in the words or in the speeches on the ground.
28:29Nothing is done for the farmers or the labourers.
28:31That's why we are sitting on roads.
28:33We don't have any habit or we are not in the mood of sitting on the roads.
28:37That is because we are not getting anything.
28:39That is why our state government is as liable as the central government.
28:45So, both the centre and the state, nobody has delivered.
28:48Even the promises that were made for the protest to be lifted, where the farm protest was concerned,
28:56none of those promises have been delivered, is what the farm leaders are saying.
29:00Therefore, three years down, they are still on the roads.
29:02Smith Singh Maan, in midst of all of this, the likes of the Congress, the likes of the Shirumani Akali Dal
29:08is being charged with trying to milk the situation politically.
29:12Because you are not helming the government in Punjab, you want to politically exploit
29:18because it's a catch-22 situation for the government in Punjab.
29:21Do they stand by the farmers or the traders in Punjab?
29:25See, I think, first of all, I have to call the lie of Aluwalia ji.
29:30There is a Parliamentary Standing Committee on Agriculture, Annuals of Entry and Food Processing.
29:35Our former Chief Minister of Punjab for Congress, Chiranjeevi Chennai ji, is the chairperson of that.
29:39It has tabled a report in the Parliament in the last session, giving MSP to all crops, legal guarantee of MSP, loan waiver.
29:48Along with that, in fact, on 18th of March, he tabled another report, which says that even small farmers,
29:54for 10-15% of destruction of their crop, they will get crop insurance.
29:59It even has multiple policies, how government can solve the present impasse.
30:03Congress party in its Lok Sabha manifesto was very clear.
30:07We want to set up a national commission for loan waiver.
30:09We want the legal guarantee of MSP.
30:11We want a statutory status for Agriculture Cost and Pricing Commission.
30:15And Bharat saab will agree with me, because it is Congress, former Chief Minister Chennai ji's committee report,
30:20which has multiple times been used by Talewal saab and other SKM leaders,
30:23in writing to Modi ji in the central government that this should be implemented.
30:27It is signed by 30 MPs and placed in the Parliament.
30:29What has the Aam Aadmi Party done?
30:31Number two, coming on the U-turns of the Aam Aadmi Party.
30:34See, it is known for lying and U-turns.
30:36They are continually trying to do that.
30:38Now, what I want to ask them is, their last meeting of Bhagwant Manji with Amit Shah ji,
30:42what was discussed, is there an alliance between Aam Aadmi Party and BJP coming?
30:46Because as the Akali Dal is going down, BJP is asking the Aam Aadmi Party to do the same tactics,
30:51which they were using the Akali Dal for.
30:53And now, or is the liquor scam?
30:55Are they getting out of the liquor scam with this?
30:58So, you are just saying it's behind the scenes, there's a nexus building between the AAP and the BJP.
31:03What the BJP couldn't get through the Shirumani Akali Dal,
31:06they are trying to get through the Aam Aadmi Party.
31:08Respond to that, Mr. Grewal.
31:10This is not correct, Preeti.
31:13The fact is that Mr. AAP representative, I think, doesn't know that after partition,
31:20if anybody made any sacrifice for Punjab's Akali Dal,
31:25its minister resigned when the bill was brought to the parliament and we voted against that will.
31:30What they have done, they sat in Tarna of the farmers when they were on Delhi border.
31:36Their chief minister kept one day fast and appealed to all workers.
31:42And what is his statement, what has been played on the other channel,
31:46jab tak farmer border pe baithenge hum inke saath hain.
31:51What happened?
31:53I think they are playing a very divisive politics which is going to damage Punjab.
32:00The way they are playing.
32:02It is there.
32:05So, divisive politics is the charge.
32:08Mr. Aluwalia, you have one minute to answer.
32:10And these are grave charges.
32:12That today you are standing against the farmers.
32:14The minute Ludhiana by-polls will happen, you will again skip over on the other side.
32:18But people are now catching on to the double speak of the AAP is what the charge is.
32:22No, no, Preeti Chaudhary ji, there is one simple question.
32:26Whether Congress or Somni Akali Dal wants us to open roads, yes or no?
32:31Whether they want the Punjab to be the Rangla Punjab, yes or no?
32:34Are they standing with the farmers, yes or no?
32:37The simple things.
32:38Why I am saying this?
32:39The Congress was a political party, was in power when the farmer bills came.
32:44Out of there, how many, including the Chief Minister at that time,
32:49out of them, how many were present in the Dharna at Delhi?
32:53How many?
32:54They went there for days.
32:55We were there.
32:56We were with the farmers.
32:57We are right now with the farmers.
32:58But that doesn't mean that we don't want to open the main roads.
33:02The Ashromni Kalidhar, very clearly, their minister has...
33:06Mr. Aluwala, you have said this before.
33:08Before I go into a quick break because I have run out of time,
33:10let me ask the question which I had asked you earlier, sir.
33:13Use of bulldozers.
33:15The Aam Aadmi Party was an open critique of the bulldozer policy of U.V. Adityanath.
33:20They are liars.
33:22Preeti Chaudhary ji, madam, very clearly you have said the use of bulldozers,
33:27whether Congress or Ashromni Kalidhar or even the farmer unions
33:31doesn't want that Punjab should be drug free
33:34because Ashromni Kalidhar in 2007 was the main culprit
33:37for launching all these, you know, kinds of nashas in Punjab.
33:41They were the main...
33:42You are sorry to interrupt.
33:43Sorry to interrupt.
33:44Okay.
33:45Okay.
33:46Okay.
33:47Okay.
33:48I am beginning to end this debate.
33:49I apologize.
33:50I need to pull up, sir.
33:51We are going to have this conversation in days to come.
33:53I appreciate all four of you for joining us.
33:55But, you know, Mr. Aluwala, the fact is also that, yes,
33:59nobody wants a drug-laden Punjab.
34:01Nobody wants the kind of Punjab that Punjab was turning out into be
34:04where drugs was concerned.
34:05But always I would think, at least I am taking what the Aam Aadmi Party said earlier
34:10and they said that it was constitutionally not correct to use bulldozers
34:15without proper investigation, without, you know,
34:20even that the person whose house you run the bulldozer on
34:24has been proven as guilty before all of that.
34:27That's my simple submission on the U-turn there.
34:29But we are going to keep a keen eye on all developments in Punjab.
34:332021, an 11-year-old girl in Kasganj, Uttar Pradesh.
34:39Two men grabbed her breasts,
34:43tore her pyjama strings,
34:46dragged her under a culvert.
34:49The girl was screaming,
34:52pass us by here and come to the rescue.
34:56The two men, Pawan and Akash, fled.
35:01Pawan and Akash were initially summoned by the trial court
35:04on charges of attempt to rape under POCSO Act.
35:09After they challenged the trial court,
35:12summons before the Allahabad court,
35:15Justice Ram Manohar Narayan Mishra,
35:18on 17th March, altered the charges
35:21from attempt to rape to aggravated sexual assault under POCSO.
35:28The Allahabad High Court has ruled
35:30the actions like grabbing breasts or snapping pyjama strings
35:34does not constitute rape or attempt to rape
35:38but can be considered aggravated sexual assault,
35:42a comparatively lesser charge than attempt to rape.
35:47In an order that has now drawn sharp criticism
35:50and baffled many,
35:52even calling for the Supreme Court's intervention,
35:56the Allahabad High Court has drawn a distinction
35:59between the preparation stage
36:01and actual attempt in case of rape allegations.
36:06The ruling has led to massive outrage
36:08with many raising questions about the selection of judges.
36:13Senior lawyer Indira Jai Singh flagged the order
36:16and said in a post on X,
36:18requires suo moto action by Supreme Court.
36:21Judges have been pulled up for much less by Supreme Court.
36:26Many have posted on social media questioning,
36:29if these acts don't show intention to rape,
36:32then what does?
36:34Raising a larger question on the state of India's judiciary.
36:40We are appalled, milord,
36:44with your interpretation of attempt to rape.
36:47Top focus on To The Point this evening.
37:18Let's take these questions right now to our guest this evening,
37:22Karuna Nandy, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court,
37:24joining us as well as Brindha Adige, Women Rights Activist.
37:27Karuna Nandy, with what, you know,
37:29the kind of uproar we've seen at the back of the story,
37:33what is the way out?
37:34Because it's a little baffling where you, you know,
37:37snap the pajama string,
37:39even that doesn't constitute attempt to rape,
37:42then what constitutes attempt to rape?
37:44Are we who are laymen when it comes down to legal jargon,
37:48somewhere down the line missing the interpretation of rape,
37:51or truly did the High Court judge
37:54interpret attempt to rape in a very bizarre fashion?
37:59If you drag a child into a culvert
38:02and you grab her breasts and draw,
38:05take her pajama drawstring off,
38:09before even beginning the trial,
38:12to say that this was not an attempt to rape
38:14is frankly bizarre.
38:17But I also want to point out
38:19a number of other problems with this judgment.
38:21If you look at the language
38:23and the mixture of Hindi and English,
38:27and it's in some places, you know,
38:29impossible to understand what the judge is trying to say,
38:32then that, you know, just for lack of clarity,
38:35is a real problem.
38:37But a much bigger problem
38:39is the fact that the judge failed to notice
38:42that due to the fact that this is a sexual crime
38:47and covered by the IPC section 166A,
38:53which says that you have to register an FIR in such a case,
38:57that it can't be a complaint case, right?
39:02And allowed it to proceed as a complaint case
39:05is a travesty.
39:07Because the reason that provision is there
39:09is because in a complaint case,
39:12it's just up to the, in this case,
39:15the mother and the child to bring all the evidence
39:18and to persuade the court
39:20that this crime actually happened.
39:22In such sexual crimes,
39:25the police, on pain of being prosecuted themselves,
39:28are required to register the FIR.
39:32And the reason is this,
39:33because it is a crime against the state.
39:37When there is a rapist or an attempted rapist
39:40or any other, this kind of sexual crime,
39:43then the police has to investigate
39:47and find out what actually happened,
39:49rather than just going on what the,
39:52you know, having the victim
39:54trying to gather all the evidence together,
39:56rather than just the owners only being,
39:58go and complain to the state, right?
40:00So this judgment is a travesty in multiple ways.
40:04And most prominently,
40:07in attempting to set precedent
40:10that when in such facts
40:13that it could not be an attempt to rape,
40:19when the existence of intention, etc.,
40:26would be a matter of trial.
40:27Why didn't he just let it go to trial?
40:29This is a bad judgment.
40:31We need strong action
40:33in such cases.
40:34And I hope it follows.
40:36Prindha Adhikari, I want to get you in,
40:38and it's a question I'd like to ask Karunanandi as well,
40:40because we just want to give out some details
40:42in terms of gender representation
40:44when it comes down to the Indian judiciary.
40:46Till now, there have only been 11 women judges.
40:48We're going to put those graphics out.
40:50And I would think that in itself is appalling,
40:53and possibly that's why gender justice also suffers.
40:55Not that men can't deliver gender justice,
40:57but to have just more women in the mix
40:59would make a huge difference.
41:01We're going to put that graphic out right away,
41:03but Prindha Adhikari,
41:04will it also paramount
41:06to getting more women in the Indian judiciary?
41:11Can we get the graphic out first?
41:13Go ahead, ma'am.
41:14So, Preeti, that is very, very important
41:16that they have 50% or more women in the judiciary
41:20at all levels.
41:21We are looking at not only judges and magistrates,
41:23but also at the prosecution level
41:26and at every other level.
41:27But that said,
41:29let us place on record
41:30that we have also found some women judges
41:33who've come up there
41:34making bizarre orders and judgments.
41:37The issue here is,
41:39there is a law,
41:40and the law is to be understood by everybody
41:43in letter and spirit.
41:45And the matter comes before the court.
41:48Now, how can a judge decide,
41:50you know, out of the blue,
41:52on his or her own,
41:53that this doesn't constitute?
41:55There is a definition given.
41:57Now, you must at least follow with that definition
41:59and, of course,
42:00you can elaborate further on the definition
42:02if it is in the interest of the victim-survivor
42:05and the case.
42:06But here, this judge has gone all out somewhere else.
42:09He has his own understanding.
42:13I just can't say it is simply patriarchal,
42:16but it goes beyond that,
42:18where he feels that the two perpetrators
42:21did all of these things.
42:23And, in fact, in my Twitter also,
42:25I have asked,
42:27what would he do
42:29if this happened to a member of his family?
42:32What is it that is running through his mind
42:35when he gave a statement of that nature
42:38in various languages in that one sentence
42:40and that order itself?
42:42Did he even think that he is bringing culprits
42:45to justice or not?
42:48And, like Madam Nandy pointed out,
42:52why haven't you allowed this to go to trial?
42:55Why haven't you allowed the police
42:56to do their investigation
42:58and present their forensic evidence over there?
43:00Why is all of the procedures not followed?
43:03Now, you can't be the one and only
43:06that yours is the final word.
43:08Follow the procedures.
43:09If you are not following the procedures,
43:11who are you accountable to?
43:13So the Constitution should not be respected at all
43:15and the citizen who has brought the case forward
43:18should not be given any kind of justice
43:21as per the law.
43:22So this is not only about women coming there,
43:24we want a lot of women,
43:26but both men and women need to be trained.
43:29For some reason, judges think
43:31that they are beyond training
43:33and that is the problem.
43:34You know, it's not just judges feel
43:36that they are beyond training
43:37and Karuna Nandy, maybe you can weigh in on this
43:40because judges are considered the holy grail.
43:46You really can't question them and what they say.
43:48And with what many have even pointed out,
43:51especially on social media,
43:53because social media is the buzz with that,
43:55that judges have been pulled up
43:57by the Supreme Court for far little
43:59and this is huge.
44:00So what is it that you put a system in place
44:02where you don't see judgments like that?
44:06There have been various attempts
44:08to put such systems in place.
44:10For example, you had the handbook
44:16that was issued by the Supreme Court
44:18and so that's one attempt.
44:19Another attempt is where
44:21some of us have been invited
44:23on various occasions
44:24by the National Judicial Academy
44:25and by the Delhi Judicial Academy
44:27to train judges.
44:29And in such circumstances,
44:33for example, we give various scenarios
44:37and the only difference
44:39is the interpretation of the consent.
44:42And sometimes we see varying answers
44:45but after the workshop,
44:47there are sort of aha moments
44:50and there's a kind of understanding
44:52and everyone is much more on the same page
44:55in terms of how to interpret the law.
44:57I think at the very outset
45:00when judges are appointed or promoted,
45:04I really wish that we had
45:07some kind of competence evaluation
45:10with regard to the protected category,
45:14how they deal with...
45:18because judges come from society, right?
45:21And law is a corrective in that sense.
45:24So if there is crime in society,
45:26there's huge prejudice,
45:27there's misogyny,
45:28there's casteism,
45:29there's communalism,
45:30the law and judges enforcing the law
45:34are meant to be a corrective for all of this.
45:36Now if they don't correct for all of this,
45:37it's only going to make the coercion
45:39even much worse.
45:40So therefore, I wish that
45:42at the stage of appointing
45:45or promoting a person to the High Court,
45:49that there would be an interview
45:54and indeed a test to understand
45:57how is it that you apply the law?
45:59Do you think women tend to lie?
46:01Do you think that Dalit people
46:05don't deserve the protections that they have,
46:07for example, under the CST Act
46:09and therefore do you not apply that?
46:10Do you think that laws
46:14with regard to communalism
46:16should not be applied the way they are?
46:18Because the judge's job is really to apply the law
46:21and to interpret it in line with the constitution.
46:23So I really think that these evaluations should happen
46:26and these evaluations should happen from time to time.
46:28But let us not forget that there is an appeals process
46:32and this, I really hope,
46:35will go up to the Supreme Court
46:37and indeed I do think that the Supreme Court
46:40should ideally take some more cognizance
46:42of this judgment because it is egregious
46:45and you know, make, pass,
46:49you know, give a, at the very least,
46:54require this judge to go to training
46:57again at the National Judiciary.
46:59Brinda Adiga, just going to get a quick word in
47:01because it does seem somewhere down the line
47:03gender justice repeatedly especially
47:05because this is the High Court,
47:06the lower courts sometimes are far more appalling
47:09is completely lost in the interpretation of the law.
47:12You're absolutely right.
47:14It is lost in the interpretation of the law
47:16but the interpretation must also be
47:19within the ambit of law.
47:21You can't simply interpret something out of the blue.
47:24That's what I said.
47:26It has to go beyond that law
47:28which might have been, you know,
47:30formulated 20-30 years ago
47:32and it today probably requires a little more understanding.
47:35Now I would like to add to what Madam Nandy also pointed out
47:39is that none of the judges have anything called
47:42as a performance evaluation
47:44based on the judgments that they give.
47:46It's all we speak about it
47:48and we crib about it
47:50and we are appalled about it
47:51but that's it.
47:52There's nothing at stake for them.
47:54Nothing.
47:55And so it is important that the Supreme Court
47:57also bring these things.
47:59They must be held accountable.
48:00Simple.
48:01Fair point.
48:02You know, we're going to leave it at that.
48:03I appreciate both of you for joining us
48:04because I think it's time we really start
48:05questioning the kind of bizarre judgments,
48:07egregious, bizarre, appalling,
48:09whatever one might say
48:10because there seems to be an apprehension in questioning it.
48:13Even in the morning when we were in the newsroom
48:15discussing the story,
48:16many of us said,
48:17but can you question this judgment?
48:18Why not?
48:19How much, you know,
48:20where all can you go?
48:22What's the limit that, you know,
48:24you need to stop before you say anything
48:26where this judgment is concerned?
48:27But we leave it at that.
48:29Thank you for joining us.