At a House Oversight Committee hearing prior to the Congressional recess, Rep. Byron Donalds (R-FL) asked Comptroller General Gene Dodaro about improper payments.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Mr. Chairman, I recognize the next Governor of Florida for 5
00:05minutes.
00:06Mr. Dodaro. I actually appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. Thank
00:12you.
00:13Mr. Dodaro, it is good to see you again. Thanks for being
00:16back.
00:18Since 2003, Federal agencies have reported about $2.8
00:22trillion in improper payments, including over the last 7 years
00:27consecutively, at a minimum, $150 billion in each one of those
00:33years. The High Risk Report mentions that the Department of
00:37Agriculture, HHS, HUD, DHS, OPM, and SBA all failed to report
00:45improper payment estimates in FY2023. And to reiterate for the
00:50American people, we have 7 agencies of the Federal
00:55Government that have not reported on their improper payments.
00:59And if memory serves, the last report GAO issued had improper
01:05payments north of $240 billion that was reported. What are some
01:12of the real issues within the Federal Government for the lack of
01:16ability for these agencies to report on improper payments within
01:20their purview?
01:21Mr. Dodaro. I think there needs to be more pressure put on
01:24those agencies by the administrations that are in place. And I
01:29have talked to the prior administrations about this. And Congress
01:33needs to demand that the law be followed and they do improper
01:37payment estimates.
01:38I mean, I think it is not good management to not know how much
01:45you are paying that you shouldn't be paying. It is not good
01:48fiscal stewardship. So I am very disappointed they are not
01:51reporting. And I would encourage the Congress and the Trump
01:54administration to require the reporting now.
01:58Mr. Cummings. I would agree with you wholeheartedly. Let me
02:00answer the question. The agencies that didn't report, some of
02:03them vary in size. Obviously, Department of Homeland Security is
02:06a major department of the Federal Government.
02:09Mr. Dodaro. Right.
02:10Mr. Cummings. Considering that, let's just say for estimate's
02:13sake, I don't have the report in front of me, that in fiscal
02:15year of 23, improper payments were $250 billion. If we had the
02:21estimates of those seven departments, what do you think the actual
02:24outstanding was from 2023?
02:26Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I really can't hesitate to guess. The one thing
02:30Congress needs to do in this area, though, the temporary assistance
02:34for needy families, they believe, HHS, they can't make an estimate
02:39unless Congress changes the law. So they refuse to do it, saying
02:45they don't have the legal authority to require the States to give
02:48them the information they need in order to make an improper payment
02:52estimate. So Congress needs to change the statute there. And I think
02:57that's important.
02:58Mr. Cummings. All right. Thank you. FEMA is currently managing
03:00over 600 major disaster declarations, some of which have occurred
03:0420 years ago. One of the GAO recommendations in this year's high
03:10risk report is that FEMA should identify and document lessons
03:13learned related to estimating obligations for catastrophic
03:17disasters. Can you expand upon this?
03:19Mr. Curry. Sure. FEMA has always struggled with this because they
03:25don't know how much they're going to need in a particular year. And
03:28then when you have a catastrophic disaster season like you had last
03:31year in your home State with Helene and Milton, that throws
03:34everything off. But COVID really threw this off because FEMA did not
03:39expect to spend what it spent on COVID. At the end of this year, it's
03:43going to have spent well north of $150 billion on COVID. And once
03:47that's done, it's sort of thrown all the estimates off. It's gone up
03:51over time, which affects their estimates moving forward. And they're
03:55spent way more than they thought they were going to have to spend on
03:58that. And that's one of the reasons the Disaster Relief Fund is in
04:00this constant negative situation. It's supposed to be actually it's
04:04going to be $12 billion underwater already at the end of September,
04:08even after the supplemental appropriation that you all provided it late
04:12last year. So FEMA not to cut you off, but to go down this line of that
04:16we're talking about is FEMA still having to make payments out associated
04:21with COVID-19? Absolutely. They're still making payments. Do you have an
04:24estimate of how much FEMA is still appropriating out because of COVID-19?
04:28Uh, last time I checked, which was at the end of February, they were
04:33upwards of $130 billion. They have paid out and they expect to spend over
04:37$150 billion in the fiscal year. They also told us they expected the
04:41disaster to run through the end of FY 26 next year and spend almost $180
04:46billion on that. So they're still reimbursing state and local governments
04:50for that. Okay, so they're expected to spend another $180 billion
04:54reimbursing state and local governments for COVID-19. And that's
04:57all right. Sorry. Another another $50 billion. Another $50 billion to
05:00take it to $180 billion. Okay. All right. Thank you for that. I appreciate
05:04that. I'm out of my time. Thank you so much, Mr Chairman. Mr Daddario,
05:08thank you for your time and your service.
05:11Chair recognizes Mr Subram Subram Mayim. Super money. Thank you, Mr
05:16Chairman. Sorry, that's okay. Uh, so before we go on to this, someone had
05:22said earlier that we cannot cut Medicaid here in Congress, and I just
05:25want to make sure everyone knows at home that that's not true. In fact,
05:28my state, um, this Republican budget, which it does would cut Medicaid
05:32benefits even a little bit. Uh, everyone who benefited from Medicaid expansion
05:36in Virginia would actually lose that benefit. And so it hurt us and many
05:41other states. Millions of people across