Tamil Nadu Chief Minister MK Stalin reopened the debate surrounding delimitation, as he urged citizens of the state to have more children due to fears of potential parliamentary seat reductions from delimitation.
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00:00The epic North versus South battle rages again.
00:12The tension, the rhetoric, the politics is palpable.
00:19The contention, delimitation.
00:23The fear, reduced representation inside the parliament.
00:33Will delimitation change India's political landscape?
00:37Will it be a win for the North and a loss for the South?
00:42Are Southern parties playing on the regional psyche by raising the bogey of delimitation?
00:55Or should Centre come clean on what exactly will be the delimitation formula?
01:06The big delimitation debate on To The Point this evening.
01:12Good evening, you're watching To The Point.
01:15I'm Preeti Chaudhary, our talk focus on To The Point.
01:18Debate number one is the big delimitation debate.
01:21First up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
01:29Congress leader Shama Mohammed in a soup but deletes her post body shaming Rohit Sharma
01:35after claiming he was fat.
01:39It is her own point of view and has asked her to take down the post.
01:43BCCI comes out, suggests Rohit is fit, doing well for the team and himself.
01:53After recliners, massage chairs for MLAs, three crores to be spent on smart look for
01:57MLAs after two and a half crores plurge on chief minister's house.
02:02Fun, crunch but lush Neta life.
02:10Stalin urges for more babies to beat delimitation and secure more Lok Sabha seats as must be
02:15ready for population census.
02:24A political face-off bruise, Samadwadi party's Abu Azmi hails Aurangzeb says many temples
02:30built under Mughal rule.
02:32Deputy Chief Minister Maharashtra hits out, demands Azmi be booked for treason.
02:43Prime Minister Modi's lion safari at Gujarat's Deer on World Wildlife Day announces Cheetah
02:48project expansion in Gujarat.
02:55Supreme Court allows Ranbir Ahlababia to publish his content online, says will not allow jobs
03:00of 280 team members to take a hit.
03:08Anora sweeps Oscars, wins six awards, Adrian Broody wins best actor, Mikey Madison wins
03:14best actress.
03:16Zoe Saldana, Kieran Kalkin win big for their supporting roles.
03:35All right our top focus continues to be the massive political face-off brewing when it
03:39comes down to delimitation.
03:41Now MK Stalin has called for an all-party meet on the 5th of March because what he fears
03:48is there is going to be, where the south is concerned, there's going to be on a back foot
03:54when delimitation exercise occurs especially after the caste census takes place in 2026.
04:02Now at the back of it, Amit Shah, the Home Minister has made it very clear saying that
04:06this is all fear-mongering by southern parties like the DMK.
04:11The south states will not lose political representation when it comes down to the parliament.
04:17On the other hand, Stalin today, taking the debate further in a sarcastic remark, asked
04:23couples who have just been married to quickly start having children, saying earlier, you
04:28know, we used to suggest population control but we might just pay the political price
04:33of population control.
04:34All of this at the back, viewers, because till now all delimitation exercises that have
04:39been carried out in the country have been on the basis of demography, population.
04:43Listen in to MK Stalin.
05:09All right, so fair amount of politics that is taking place.
05:25We're going to get you other reactions as well of the BJP leaders from the north also
05:29hitting back in just about thirty seconds, going to get you those reactions.
05:33But first up, what is delimitation?
05:35Well, it's the process of redrawing parliamentary and assembly constituency boundaries.
05:39It's happened before, carried out to reflect changes in population, conducted to ensure
05:45fair representation based on demographic shifts and especially in the recent past, we've seen
05:51massive demographic shifts, especially where population is concerned, favoring the north
05:57while the south loses out in terms of population.
06:00It decides how many seats will be reserved for SCSTs also.
06:03As per constitution, delimitation must happen after each census.
06:08The task carried out by delimitation commission, which is set up by the parliament.
06:13On the other hand, what's been the history of delimitation, let's take you through that,
06:171951, is when the population was 36.1 crore, the first delimitation exercise was carried
06:23out after the caste census and at the back of it, there were 494 Lok Sabha seats deemed
06:29across country and that is how it was spread out.
06:32In 1961 again, the population had risen to 43.9 crore, the Lok Sabha seats then cumulatively
06:38came to 522 distributed across the country.
06:441971, the population then again jumped by over 10 crores at 54.8 crores and as per the
06:52caste census and then the delimitation exercise carried out since, 543 seats were allocated
06:59and adjusted across the country.
07:02The sad part viewers is that we've had a huge change in demography over the last many decades
07:08but we really haven't had any delimitation exercise because we haven't had a census.
07:14Delimitation needs to take place after the census.
07:16Now 1976, there has been a delimitation freeze to boost population control.
07:23Now the southern states do feel that they have done all that they could to control their
07:28population and today might pay the political price for it because if on what was the traditional
07:36benchmarks of conducting the delimitation exercise on one person, one vote, then southern
07:41states will lose out.
07:42Now Tamil Nadu could lose 8 to 9 seats on that basis.
07:46Tamil Nadu's total strength right now stands at 39 Lok Sabha seats.
07:50So a loss of 8 to 9 seats could really diminish the political clout of Tamil Nadu when it
07:57comes down to parliamentary democracy and the Indian Parliament.
08:01Kerala could actually lose up to 8 seats, Karnataka 2 seats, Andhra Pradesh, Telangana
08:058 seats each and the loss of the south would be made up for again by the north.
08:10Uttar Pradesh could gain up to 11 seats, it's at 80 Lok Sabha seats already and could jump
08:15to 91.
08:16Bihar could again add 10 more seats to its kitty and Rajasthan 6 seats.
08:21Rajasthan of course stands at 25 seats right now so just to give you examples there.
08:26Now delimitation would affect the south, we will lose representation in Lok Sabha is something
08:33that MK Stalin has said.
08:36This is exactly where each party, where do they stand.
08:39So you've had Tamil Nadu where you just heard, we took you through what MK Stalin's stand
08:46is.
08:47Mr. Siddaramaiah, Karnataka Chief Minister has been very clear on where Karnataka stands,
08:53Karnataka does not want the delimitation exercise to take place.
08:57You've had Revanth Reddy suggesting that the BJP now conspiring to weaken southern states
09:03and politically as well as financially.
09:06What's interesting in all of this of course is where does the TDP stand because Andhra
09:12Pradesh right now viewers is a ally of the NDA and even the TDP, one of the TDP MPs has
09:20suggested if delimitation is done based on population, southern states stand to lose
09:25out and it doesn't cut with them.
09:27So the questions that I asked this evening, MK Stalin or Amit Shah who is speaking the
09:31truth on delimitation, should the government come clean or no loss to south assertion?
09:39DMK fueling delimitation hysteria in Tamil Nadu is what the BJP suggests but what most
09:49southern parties have made it clear is that south states will be penalized for what was
09:55mandated and asked of states across the country, population control.
10:00All right, let's cut across to our political face-off this evening, Anil K. Antony, National
10:05Spokesperson BJP, A. Saravana, Spokesperson DMK with us.
10:09The latest A. Saravana coming in where you've had your Chief Minister who's come out and
10:15actually asked for people to have more kids, many say you're trying to play in on the regional
10:21psyche of the citizens of your state, you are fear-mongering, you are whipping up a
10:26hysteria where none of this should exist.
10:29Yeah, all this so-called hysteria, so-called fear-mongering and what not, the division
10:37and everything could be just quelled by a written assurance from the Prime Minister
10:43and why is he not doing that?
10:45This is a very, very real issue.
10:47We are not talking something which is imaginary.
10:50We are not whipping up passion.
10:52This is a constitutional mandate.
10:55The 2001 84th Amendment has frozen for 25 years and this 25 years ends in 2026.
11:02And cleverly, see, if you look at cumulatively what the BJP has done so far, they have
11:09played like a chess game, everything to checkmate the southern states.
11:14They have not conducted the census immediately after the 2024 elections, which they promised
11:20on the floor of the Assembly.
11:21Why are they doing that?
11:22Because the census that takes place immediately after 2026 will be taken into account.
11:27In the normal course of things, the census would have taken place only in 2031.
11:31So they could have done this delimitation exercise only after 2031.
11:35But they cleverly, cunningly did not conduct the census before 2026 and they intend to
11:42do the census after 2026 and assurance this delimitation immediately.
11:47And look at their flip on statements.
11:49Oh, it will be on pro rata.
11:51You don't have to worry.
11:52Your seats will not come down.
11:54The delimitation is a complex issue.
11:56It cannot be wished away by this mere flip on statements of these BJP leaders.
12:02We need assurance.
12:03You are saying your seats will not be reduced.
12:05So what does it mean?
12:06Does it mean that the seats of the other person, if the seats of the other states are
12:12highly popular states are increased, where are we?
12:14What will happen to us?
12:16Oh, it will happen on the basis of pro rata.
12:18If it happens on the basis of pro rata, again, we will be penalized.
12:21See, the most important crux is this 13.49 percentage.
12:27That is the leverage.
12:28That is the percentage of seats we hold when compared to this 544 seats.
12:3339 out of 544 is 13.49 percentage.
12:36It's going to be a hard cut.
12:37Your time is up.
12:37I'll come back to you in two minutes.
12:39I want to bring in Anil Antony.
12:40Anil Antony, before we begin, just want to quickly apprise you.
12:43It's a two minute counter for you to put in your views.
12:46And then we'll go back to Mr. Saravana.
12:48The question, Anil Antony, is you yourself come from the state of Kerala.
12:51You understand the dynamics of delimitation.
12:54What's so wrong if the government is asked today to come clean on what is the
12:59formula? Because whichever formula one looks at presently seems to suggest that
13:04the South will lose out because every formula is going to come at the back of
13:09demography, population, one person, one vote.
13:17First of all, I would like to say that right now, the opposition has clearly run out
13:21of ideas after the Lok Sabha election, after the recent elections, the so-called
13:27India Alliance has been comprehensively rejected by the people, and now they are
13:30coming up with hypothetical situations and they are coming up with imaginary issues.
13:35It is nowhere, it is the constitution of India that clearly states that finally
13:40delimitation exercise has to happen at some point of time.
13:43It has happened multiple times in our country's history.
13:46Census is a regular process that happens every 10 years from 1951 onwards.
13:50Every 10 years, it has been happening in 2021 because of three, four years of the
13:54pandemic. Three years of the pandemic, it is slightly delayed, but the process is
13:58ongoing. And the delimitation also, there were four times it has happened before,
14:02after the 51, 61, and 71 census, the delimitation committees were there, and in
14:0973, that was the last time where a delimitation committee actually suggested
14:14something. But in 1976, there was a 42nd constitutional amendment, which froze the
14:20process for 25 years.
14:22Then 2021, there was another census.
14:24And after that, 2002, 2001, there was a census.
14:282002, again, the delimitation committee has frozen it for another 25 years.
14:32Now that time is coming.
14:34But our Home Minister has very clearly said it is in Tamil Nadu itself, in Coimbatore.
14:39Two days back, our Home Minister clearly said that no states will be losing seats.
14:46But at the same time, the census is happening, the census should be completed in the
14:49upcoming months. And then finally, the Bharatiya Janata Party is constitutionally bound
14:55to protect constitutional provisions.
14:58And we will ensure that every person in this country will be getting their
15:03constitutionally guaranteed rights, their constitutionally guaranteed provisions.
15:07And this is what the so-called India Alliance members are now opposing.
15:11Mr. Rahul Gandhi himself, he wanted to do census and he wanted to...
15:18Yes.
15:19All right, sir. OK, your time.
15:21No, no, you still have three seconds.
15:22I'll give you three seconds earlier in the next one.
15:25But Mr. A. Sarbanand, coming back to you, the fact is India has been living with the
15:31anomaly of disproportionate distribution of Lok Sabha seats, many would suggest.
15:36And historically, if you look at it, the North has had more in terms of population and
15:42demography. And the true spirit of democracy would be that a fair census happens and
15:50delimitation happens on the basis of demography.
15:53There could be a percentage fall for the South, but it's not going to be more than five, six
15:57percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, see, yeah, Preeti, that's what I was talking about, this 13.49
16:03percentage. This 13.49 percentage is what we have been enjoying for the last 50 years.
16:10So why should suddenly it be taken away, five or six percentage?
16:14It matters because if you look at it in the last 10 years, none of the parties from the
16:18state of Tamil Nadu has been part of the union government.
16:21We were not able to contribute to the union government.
16:24So what has happened to the state of Tamil Nadu?
16:26We have been sidestepped.
16:28We have been treated like, we have been given a stepmotherly treatment.
16:32We are not getting enough funds.
16:34On top of that, the question is why the BJP wants to do this?
16:401971, in 2001, they froze with regard to the 1971 census.
16:45Why did they do that in 2001?
16:47Because the population control measures kicked in after 1970s.
16:51So even after that, the North Indian states did not adhere, they did not follow this
16:57population control measures.
16:58So it was disproportionate.
17:00I told you there is equal protection of laws.
17:02The Indian constitution offers equal protection of laws.
17:05So we are at a disadvantageous situation because we followed the dictates of the union
17:10government and contributed to the growth of India's economy.
17:14If you look at the states which have a lesser population, their human development
17:20excess is high, their economic growth is high.
17:23When the states grow economically, it means India becomes a superpower.
17:27If the North Indian states have also controlled this population on the levels of the South
17:32India, India could have been economically still more prosperous.
17:36So whatever we are looking at, we should not, the BJP is looking at all these things only
17:41with a narrow prism of winning elections, narrow prism of staying in power.
17:47BJP should look at the larger picture.
17:50They should not just work for Hindu, Hindi, Hindustan.
17:54India's beauty lies in its diversity.
17:57BJP should accept this diversity and promote this diversity.
18:01But they are obsessed.
18:04They have this toxic obsession with this oneness that is their undoing.
18:07And definitely we are not going to listen or we are going to believe what Mr.
18:11Amitabh says.
18:12Mr.
18:13Antony, I want to bring you back.
18:14So hold that thought.
18:15I'll come back to you.
18:16Mr.
18:16Antony, I want to bring you back into this conversation.
18:18You said that the Home Minister, Amit Shah, has made it very clear that there is going
18:22to be no loss in parliamentary representation when it comes down to the
18:25Southern states.
18:26On what basis, sir?
18:27Because even I think journalistic inquisition also demands to ask how is
18:33this formula being worked out that the Southern states don't really lose out?
18:37Because I would think, Mr.
18:38Antony, any formula will be on the basis of demography population.
18:44And with that sense, the South will move out.
18:46What is the formula that is going to be adopted that will suggest that the
18:49Southern states will not lose out or, you know, or will they not lose out?
18:54So 39 Lok Sabha seats for Tamil Nadu will remain.
18:57However, you will have an exponential rise in Lok Sabha seats for states like UP
19:02and Bihar. Is that going to be the formula?
19:06This is not a time for sloganeering, as I already said before, Mr.
19:10Rahul Gandhi, during the national election, one of his biggest, one of his
19:16biggest issues he was raising was actually a caste census where he wanted to do a
19:20caste census and then he wanted to give reservations and he wanted to do
19:25redistribution based on caste, religion, etc., which is not allowed in the
19:29constitution. At the same time, it is the constitution of India itself that says
19:32that there has to be a caste census and there has to be a delimitation process.
19:37So this is something that is mandated in our constitution of the Bharatiya Janata
19:40Party is a responsible government and we are having the responsibility to ensure
19:45that we uphold constitutional principles and it has already happened multiple
19:49times. Like my esteemed panelists also said, in 73, there was a delimitation
19:53commission and at that point of time, states including Tamil Nadu, Tamil Nadu had
19:5841 seats in 1970 before that, but it became 39.
20:03Some states did lose out at that point of time.
20:05But in 76, finally, there was a constitutional amendment which froze it for 25
20:10years. 2001, again, there was a census.
20:13And after that, there was a freeze for 26, 25 years.
20:16Now, the time is approaching.
20:17But at this point, like our Home Minister has made it clear that nobody is going to
20:22lose seats.
20:23But then let the census be out, let the census be over and then let us now look at
20:30who is going to lose, who is going to like, finally, it is delimitation is based on
20:35population. That is true.
20:36But at the same time, I'm very sure that our government will be looking at all the
20:40avenues. And finally, we will ensure that constitutionally guaranteed provisions and
20:46rights are given to our people.
20:48So there is no way of anybody treated fairly.
20:51There is no question of this being any particular victimization against other states.
20:55There could be other states and other places also in western parts.
20:59There are many other states, including including opposition states, which are
21:05currently governed by the opposition, which are also going to have a rise.
21:09So even, let's say, states like West Bengal, etc., also had a population rise, which is
21:14much bigger than many of the southern states.
21:16All right. OK, so one quick one minute each to the both of you.
21:20Mr. Saravana, I'll give you one minute to explain what is going to be your focus in
21:25the all party meeting on the 5th of this month.
21:27Yeah, see, the focus on this all party meeting is to ensure that the union government
21:33comes up with a foolproof measure which will not diminish our political representation.
21:38We want, we don't want to be politically marginalized because the BJP suddenly wakes
21:44up and says, no, no, constitution says it has to go by population, we'll go by
21:47population. And none of their assurances are going to cut ice.
21:51Definitely those assurances made on political platforms.
21:54And our chief minister, Mr. MK Saravanan, has made it very, very clear that it has to
21:58be a written assurance from the prime minister and which will have to be acceptable to
22:03all the states. The southern states, I think all of them are on the same page.
22:08It is being, this move is being supported by the Karnataka chief minister, Mr.
22:14Siddaramaya, the Andhra chief minister, Mr.
22:16Ravindra Reddy, the Kerala chief minister, Mr.
22:19Pinarayi Vijayan, and of course, Mr.
22:22Chandrababu Naidu, not long back, spoke about having more children.
22:27He has visualized this problem.
22:29He will come along. He is a strong supporter of federalism.
22:32So he'll come and support us.
22:33I want to bring it. OK, I want to just one quick minute, Mr.
22:37Antony, to you. The fact is, Mr.
22:39Antony, the BJP will stand to lose out here because even your own allies, Chandrababu
22:45Naidu might not have said anything, but his own MPs have gone on record to suggest that
22:50delimitation is going to be very unfair for the state of Andhra Pradesh.
22:53So you're not only alienating your own constituency in the south, but also your
22:58allies. What exactly is the opposition proposal here?
23:03That is what the first of all, the party would like to ask, like what exactly is the
23:08opposition actually proposing?
23:10Because this is something which is mandated by our constitution and we are bound to
23:14follow constitutional principles.
23:16First, let the census come out.
23:17And once the census come out, let us look at what is the situation.
23:20Let us I'm very sure that there will be multiple states in across India where
23:26population has increased.
23:27There will be some states where population might have decreased.
23:30In 1973 itself, like I mentioned, Tamil Nadu did lose two seats at that point of time.
23:35But this time our leadership, our Home Minister has very clearly said nobody is going to
23:39lose, lose any seat.
23:41But let us follow constitutional provisions.
23:44And at the same time, there will be consensus also.
23:46It will be done in a manner which is fair, where constitutionally mandated rights are
23:50given to everybody. But here our opposition is just creating, they are politicizing the
23:55issue by saying that Prime Minister should give a written statement.
23:58Why should he give a written statement now?
23:59First, let the census be over.
24:01All right. OK, that's all the time that I have for now.
24:03Mr. Sarban, I know you want to come in, but we're going to let it rest.
24:05I appreciate both of you for joining us.
24:07The all party meeting is on the 5th of March, which Mr.
24:11M.K. Stalin has called.
24:14Will the rhetoric keep rising?
24:16Yes. Will there be clarity?
24:17We'll let you know sooner than later.
24:19Holi, the festival of color, love, new beginnings and the triumph of good over evil.
24:34Traditionally seen as the festival of religious integration.
24:39Ramadan, a month of fasting, prayers, self-reflection and charity, followed by the
24:52celebration of Eid, traditionally seen as a festival of sharing, giving, gifting and
24:59integration.
25:00Both festivals in India have had people of different faiths come together in joyous
25:09celebration. But slowly, yet surely, there is a shift.
25:17The sharp communal divide, fueled with political rhetoric, has cut through India's
25:22social fabric.
25:24The upcoming Holi festival in Mathura has seen a communal clarion call this year by
25:31some Hindutva outfits seeking a ban on Muslims during Holi celebrations across the
25:38Braj region.
25:54Buy iftar items only from Muslims.
26:10Buy from those who will be happy during Ramadan and Eid.
26:14Buy for Ramadan and iftar from your own.
26:19These were just a few of the viral posts on social media.
26:23The posts are calling on the Muslim community to buy goods from those of their own
26:28faith. This after there was a counter social media call to economically boycott
26:34Muslims during Diwali.
26:37The message is that this type of message is going on and there is a lot more going on.
26:44There are a lot of messages on Twitter as well.
26:46So this message should not go on.
26:48If this type of message is coming from our Hindu brother, it should not go on.
26:51If this message is coming from a Muslim brother, it should not go on.
26:54Because this is our motherland, India, the country of Ganga, Jamuna and Tehzeeb.
26:58All our businesses are related to each other.
27:02And India's uniqueness is a message that hinders unity among the minorities.
27:10We strongly oppose this.
27:15I appeal to the people of the Muslim community that they should come out and
27:19boycott such people.
27:21Because the people who are running this message are not Muslims at all.
27:26While locals say they will not let hate divide the society, politics is peaking on the issue.
27:33The message that is being said and the campaign that is being run on Twitter,
27:38I feel that why is the Congress silent now?
27:41Where is it now?
27:43Why is the Congress not saying that this country is the country of Ganga, Jamuna and Tehzeeb
27:49and therefore everyone should respect everyone?
27:51This is unfortunate and it is against the nature of India.
27:57Politics is peaking along communal intolerance.
28:01Intolerance.
28:02A word sullied by politicians.
28:05But a word that today invariably reflects the lot of us.
28:12Can India rise above hate?
28:14Top focus on To The Point this evening.
28:24So the big questions that we ask on To The Point this evening.
28:27The growing hate that we have begun to see.
28:31The biggest threat to India's democracy.
28:34Unity in diversity.
28:36Key to India's resilience.
28:39This is something that we have seen for decades.
28:42Is that changing?
28:43Is Hindu-Muslim split which is now wide out in the open India's most dangerous divide.
28:48Secularism, key now to preserve India's constitutional fabric.
28:54And is it now time to openly boycott the boycott brigade?
28:59Let's take these questions to our panelists this evening.
29:02Joining me, Shantanu Gupta, political analyst, author.
29:05Atikur Rahman, Muslim scholar, researcher on Islamic studies.
29:08Rahul Eshwar, philosophy author and Hindu activist.
29:12Zakia Soman, activist and co-founder Bharatiya Muslim Mahila Andolan.
29:16Zakia Soman, what do you make?
29:18Because you know today it's strange, absurd and a tad bit sad.
29:23Because at one end you have clarion calls coming in from Mathura.
29:27Buy right-wing outfits.
29:30You know at one time used to call them fringe but you don't know where that line has blurred.
29:34Suggesting that no Muslim should be able to enter the festivities
29:40in form of somebody who's selling his wares or even participate in the festivities.
29:46On the other hand, in Bhopal, social media is rife
29:50with calls of an economic boycott of Hindus selling
29:55either you know edibles or any other celebratory items
30:00when it comes down to Ramzan, which will be followed by Eid.
30:06So Preeti, this is really heartbreaking.
30:10This is obnoxious.
30:12This is quite angering.
30:14You know, this is just not the way our country is.
30:18But unfortunately, we are seeing a lot of social division.
30:22We are seeing a lot of polarization, a lot of hate.
30:25And we are also seeing weaponization of religion.
30:28So religion is a very personal, intimate matter, right?
30:33Between me and my creator.
30:35I can be Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh, anybody.
30:40But what we are seeing here is something else.
30:43It is not religion and religiosity.
30:46It is outright political.
30:48And it's that kind of weaponization of the religion.
30:52So rather than being a devotee,
30:55I am spewing hate against those who belong to other religion.
31:00And thereby, I think I'm being devout.
31:03I mean, what kind of a cussed logic this is?
31:06And who are these people?
31:08And why is there no action against them?
31:11You know, that is my question.
31:12Because our laws are all for harmony, for fraternity.
31:17Our constitution is for upholding the diversity, the pluralism.
31:22And our society is a multicultural, multi-faith society.
31:26And we have been, India, you know, even through independence,
31:29it's now more than seven decades.
31:31And even before India became independent,
31:34we have all been, there has been a history,
31:36there has been a tradition of all of us living together.
31:39So what has gone wrong?
31:41And why are we not taking action
31:44against these self-appointed guardians of religion
31:49who are spewing this kind of hate and venom
31:52and who are harming the social fabric
31:56and who are a clear threat to the development of the nation?
32:00Zakia, you know, before I cut across to the other guests,
32:03because strangely and sadly, the times of the day demand,
32:06I ask you, when you say action against religious fanatics,
32:09do you also mean action against religious fanaticism
32:12coming in from your own religion?
32:14Of course, definitely.
32:16I mean, there can be no doubt about that.
32:21This has to be irrespective of religion.
32:24Anybody who breaks the law, anybody who spreads hate in society,
32:30anybody who is trying to mar the social fabric,
32:33they are working against our society and our country.
32:38There should be action against them.
32:41How can I be specific?
32:43Shantanu Gupta, I want to bring you in on this
32:45because it's really, you know, the talk of social fabric
32:48should have happened many moons ago,
32:50but we've stopped talking about social fabric.
32:52Let's just talk about constitutional fabric.
32:54And I would hope you would think as well
32:57that somewhere down the line,
32:59you'll have to restore whatever India's secular values were
33:02to protect India's constitutional fabric.
33:05I want to ask you a direct question.
33:06When it comes down to Uttar Pradesh,
33:08where you have a certain amount of fanaticism
33:11which seems to preach that,
33:13do not buy from Muslims,
33:15do not allow them to enter during holy festivities,
33:18yet no action is taken.
33:19That's then, somewhere down the line,
33:21you're tacitly embracing.
33:25I think in the starting, Preeti, you said
33:27that these things are happening openly these days,
33:29but I think you also meant that these things
33:32are surreptitiously happening anyways, right?
33:34And the three ways, they are anyway happening
33:36from the Muslim side.
33:37First, the Azaan.
33:38The Azaan that we hear five times a day,
33:40they say Allah is the only God worth praying, right?
33:42Meaning the Ram, Krishna, anyone is not worth praying, right?
33:46Second thing, Halal, the certification of Halal
33:49is available in the market from last many decades.
33:52That's a Hindu ostracization of the business
33:54from going on from last many, many decades.
33:57Even if I go to a Pizza Hut, to a Burger King,
34:00to a McDonald's, to a cement factory,
34:02to a cosmetic Halal, to a cloth Halal,
34:05where a lot of Hindu butcher, like Kasai Jati,
34:08are out of business.
34:10So, Hindu ostracization of the business
34:12is happening from far many days.
34:14And then, when we see a lot of Muslim sellers
34:16add your spit to urine, to whatnot, to your food.
34:19Who will want to eat that unhygienic food?
34:21So, I think now, one has to decide
34:23that this clash of civilization, how far it will go.
34:26Will the Muslim clerics take on things like Halal?
34:30That Halal certification is needed in food,
34:33in multiple other things.
34:35And if not, I'm sure both the parties will get active.
34:38Shantanu Gupta, can I ask you a question?
34:40Sure.
34:41It could be a tad bit personal.
34:45Tell me, tell me. Yeah, yeah, sure.
34:47The question I'd like to ask you is,
34:48do you have friends who are Muslim
34:50and do they come to your house for festivities?
34:52Yeah, they do come, yeah.
34:54And they're your friends?
34:55Yeah, that's why they come to my house.
34:57So, do you think it's wrong somewhere down the line,
34:59Shantanu Gupta, that a call has gone out
35:01which seems to suggest that
35:03don't allow any Muslims to participate
35:05in the holy festivity?
35:07Does it not somewhere down the line agree with my question?
35:10I think you did not hear what I said.
35:12I said it again.
35:13The Halal certification, which says
35:15a meat sold by a Hindu,
35:17a lipstick sold by a Hindu,
35:18a cloth sold by a Hindu,
35:20a cement sold by a Hindu
35:21will not be accepted by a Muslim family.
35:23This is going on for decades.
35:24So now, one group in response may give a call.
35:28But there's a difference.
35:29I get what you're saying.
35:31It's exactly the same.
35:32Halal is institutionalized.
35:34This particular call is coming from one group.
35:36This may also…
35:37Tomorrow you may get a Sanatan certification.
35:39And I'm sure it should be incoming, right?
35:42If you not allow me…
35:44You know, right, the major Kasai Jati
35:46which were into butchering,
35:47they were out of profession
35:49because you can't sell.
35:51Okay, let me pose the question
35:53as I bring in Atikur Rehman
35:55and I believe you're going to be joined
35:56by Rahul Eswar as well.
35:57Let me pose that question again, Shantanu,
35:59you know, to you because you allowed me
36:00to ask you a personal question
36:01and only that's why I'm asking.
36:03So, you don't…
36:04Then you're not against Muslims
36:06partaking in festivities which are Hindu,
36:09being part of Holi,
36:10celebrating Holi with you.
36:12See, when someone asks,
36:13can Muslims go to Mahakumbh?
36:16You know what Yogi Etnaz said?
36:17They can surely go to the Kumbh.
36:19But if they do any mischief,
36:21they will be dented.
36:22I'm saying with that caveat,
36:24yeah, everybody is allowed
36:25in every festival.
36:26Is that the caveat you keep
36:27for making your friends
36:28enter your house?
36:29I'm saying…
36:30No, no, I'm saying
36:31you're not trying to hear
36:32what I'm trying to say.
36:33No, sir, I'm hearing.
36:34You want to trivialize the topic,
36:35you can trivialize.
36:36That's fine.
36:37But you're not hearing what I'm saying.
36:38Not at all.
36:39I'm hearing what you're saying.
36:40If someone will add spit to urine
36:41to my food,
36:42I'll surely be alarmed.
36:43If someone will said,
36:44I'll need a halal certificate
36:46to engage with my activities
36:47and my…
36:48then I'll surely be alarmed.
36:49Alright.
36:50And you think, okay,
36:51and spit in urine is not the preserve
36:54Just last 10 seconds.
36:55If my friend find a hero
36:56in orange zip and barber,
36:57I'll surely be alarmed.
36:58Okay, fair point.
36:59I get it.
37:00And you know,
37:01I would also agree with you
37:02on that point.
37:03But let me also say,
37:04spit and urine
37:05is not the preserve
37:06of only Muslims.
37:07I would think it's as much
37:08as a preserve of Hindus
37:09as it is of Muslims.
37:10I want to bring in Atikur Rahman.
37:11We have seen multiple cases, Preeti.
37:12You can show it away.
37:13You know, like I said,
37:14I disagree with you.
37:15But I think it's the preserve
37:16of Hindus and Muslims
37:17equally.
37:18It's how,
37:19it's what prism
37:20one would look at.
37:22Allow me to open up the panel.
37:23I'll come back to you.
37:24I'll circle back to you.
37:25Sir, you know,
37:26allow me to circle back.
37:27Allow me to circle back to you.
37:28Atikur Rahman,
37:29I want to bring you
37:30into this conversation.
37:31The fact is,
37:32Atikur Rahman,
37:33what's happening right now
37:34in Mathura,
37:35where you have calls
37:36of a social boycott
37:37for Muslims,
37:38you reflect it now
37:39in Bhopal
37:40and flip it over,
37:41there are calls
37:42of an economic boycott
37:43for Muslims.
37:44You reflect it now
37:45in Bhopal
37:46and flip it over,
37:47there are calls
37:48of an economic boycott
37:49for Muslims.
37:50You reflect it now
37:51in Bhopal
37:52and flip it over,
37:53there are calls
37:54of an economic boycott
37:55for Hindus
37:56when it comes down
37:57to Ramzan
37:58or Eid.
37:59Priti,
38:00let us,
38:01you know,
38:02face the
38:03real situation
38:04that is the divide
38:05is very much real.
38:06We need not,
38:07you know,
38:08push it under the carpet.
38:09The main idea
38:10should be
38:11that who is
38:12trying to
38:13proliferate
38:14this particular
38:15idea of divide,
38:16dividing the societies
38:17and who is
38:18trying to
38:19minimize
38:20this particular
38:21onslaught of
38:22this divide.
38:23The
38:24Prime Minister
38:25of India
38:26is having a
38:27minister
38:28in the
38:29parliament
38:30who has
38:31said absurd
38:32things to
38:33our Muslims
38:34but he is,
38:35you know,
38:36he is still
38:37there in the
38:38parliament.
38:39There is a judge
38:40who spread
38:41venom
38:42against the
38:43Muslim community
38:44but the Supreme
38:45Court gave
38:46it as green
38:47signals.
38:48You know,
38:49the divide
38:50is real
38:51but what we
38:52need to face
38:53is,
38:54Preeti,
38:55is that
38:56who is
38:57benefiting out
38:58of it,
38:59who is
39:00giving,
39:01you know,
39:02gifts and
39:03ministries
39:04to these
39:05people
39:06and who
39:07is trying
39:08to curb
39:09it.
39:10You have
39:11said all
39:12this thing
39:13on the
39:14show
39:15in the
39:16beginning
39:17of the
39:18show.
39:19You have
39:20said it
39:21on the
39:22show
39:23in the
39:24beginning
39:25of the
39:26show.
39:27You have
39:28said it
39:29on the
39:30show
39:31in the
39:32beginning
39:33of the
39:34show.
39:35You have
39:36said it
39:37on the
39:38show
39:39in the
39:40beginning
39:41of the
39:42show.
39:43You have
39:44said it
39:45on the
39:46show
39:47in the
39:48beginning
39:49of the
39:50show.
39:51You have
39:52said it
39:53on the
39:54show
39:55in the
39:56beginning
39:57of the
39:58show.
39:59You have
40:00said it
40:01on the
40:02show
40:03in the
40:04beginning
40:05of the
40:06show.
40:07That is
40:08the
40:09spirit
40:10and the
40:11tradition
40:12most
40:13important
40:14to
40:15And let me tell you, I have more Hindu friends.
40:19I have more Gujarati and Jain friends than the Muslims.
40:23Within my community, we appreciate, you know,
40:27we appreciate that we have the cross, you know,
40:30about the friendship along these lines.
40:34What I am trying to say is, the people who are in power,
40:38are they addressing this problem so that it is rooted out?
40:42I'm going to leave it at that.
40:43I want to bring in.
40:44I'm short on time.
40:45I want to come back to all of you again.
40:47Rahul Eshwar, I want to introduce you.
40:49He's just joined us right now in this conversation.
40:51Rahul Eshwar, the fact is, you know,
40:53I think we can admit, the divide is right out in the open.
40:57And even, you know, Shantanu was right.
41:00It's now seemingly projected as a civilizational clash.
41:03But who puts the bomb?
41:05Where are we headed?
41:06Preeti ji, you know, if you think the divide
41:09is deep and real, please come to South India.
41:12The crores of Hindus go to a mosque
41:14before going to Sabarimala temple,
41:16because our God, Ayyappa, has instructed,
41:19first go and see my Muslim friend, Bawar,
41:21before coming to me.
41:22I'm a proud Hindu right-wing activist.
41:24I was the person who complained against Sadhvi Prachi
41:28for her Islamophobic remarks,
41:30absolutely unacceptable, Muslim-mukta-Bharat
41:33kind of a remark.
41:34See, there may be problems,
41:35but we as a people can solve it.
41:37Please remember, we defeated the greatest empire
41:40in the history of the world, British empire.
41:42Can't we defeat the hate between our communities?
41:45We Hindus and Muslims came together,
41:47sadhus and fakirs came together
41:49and defeated the largest empire in human history
41:52called the British empire.
41:53Can't we defeat it?
41:54There are solutions.
41:56The path ahead is Mahatma Gandhi.
41:57The path ahead is pluralism, reconciliation,
42:00talk to each other.
42:01There may be problems.
42:02The path ahead is not Nehruvian secularism.
42:05The path ahead is Gandhian pluralism.
42:07If we are honest about pluralism,
42:09we can still have Hindu-Muslim unity
42:11and Hindu-Muslim brotherhood.
42:13And Poojaniya Sarsang Chalak, Guruji Golwalkar used to say,
42:16the real issue in India
42:18is not the lack of uniform civil code.
42:20The real issue in India
42:21is the lack of Hindu-Muslim bhaichara,
42:23Hindu-Muslim brotherhood, or Hindu-Muslim sisterhood.
42:26Yes, if we go to that path of Poojaniya Sarsang Chalak
42:29or Mohan Bhagawati,
42:30or father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi,
42:32we will still able to save Hindu-Muslim brotherhood
42:36and still able to celebrate our nation
42:38as the largest Hindu majority nation
42:40and one of the largest Muslim minority nation in the world.
42:43Well, good on you, Rahul Eshwar, for saying what you did.
42:46I'd like to give all our panelists one minute each
42:50to conclude on where we stand and what can be done.
42:53There've got to be some real answers to this.
42:54Zakia, would you like to go ahead?
42:57Yeah, so India belongs to all Indians.
43:00No one community or one individual
43:02has any copyright on India.
43:04And I entirely agree with Rahul Eshwar
43:07that we have defeated the mightiest British empire.
43:10Why can't we defeat this virus of communalism and hatred?
43:14And I have hope,
43:15and my hope comes from the ordinary Indian.
43:17He has referred to South India,
43:19but I have seen Indians who love everybody
43:23irrespective of faith.
43:24I've seen these kinds of Indians all over the country.
43:27So not just South India, but all over the country,
43:29and we will win.
43:30All right, Shantanu, would you like to go next?
43:34See, Preeti, I think we should form something like
43:37what South Africa did,
43:38something like a Peace and Reconciliation Commission
43:40where both the parties came
43:41and settled it once and all, right?
43:43You know, if you denied Holocaust,
43:45there can be a court case against you in 18 countries.
43:49But in India, you can have Aurangzeb Road.
43:50And Narendra Modi has to come in a Sikh-dominated Delhi
43:54to change the name from Aurangzeb Road.
43:56Aurangzeb can be celebrated in India.
43:58That will not work, that will not work.
44:00My Diwali is bad, it creates pollution.
44:02My Holi creates water problems,
44:04but you want to sell in Holi.
44:05My Prayagrah Kumbh is as per you,
44:08a lot of, many people is not managed well,
44:09but you want to earn, you do economy income.
44:11This hypocrisy will not run long, I think.
44:17Yeah.
44:18All right, so you're saying,
44:19okay, so the way ahead, you're saying is,
44:21maybe come down, I don't know who will come down.
44:24Will it be the politician?
44:25It doesn't seem so.
44:26Will it be the community elders?
44:28How does that matter, then,
44:29when political messaging is not going in
44:30from either side again, Shantanu?
44:32But one minute, Atikur Rahman,
44:33and one minute, again, Rahul Eshwar.
44:36Preeti, the people at large are united.
44:40The people do not cater to any of the communal ideas.
44:44It is the political parties who garner such ideas,
44:48and the main political parties who are in power under oath,
44:51if they are garlanding their own ministers
44:54for creating communal venom,
44:57then how can we expect that we can throw out
45:00a communal power like British,
45:02where the communal elements
45:04are sitting within our legislature?
45:08Okay, Rahul Eshwar, one minute, sir.
45:09What's the way out?
45:10You say there might be a north-south divide in this as well.
45:14April 13, 1921, Mahatma Gandhi and Pingali Venkaya,
45:19when they designed our flag,
45:20they said, saffron goes to Hindus,
45:23green has Muslims,
45:24white has Christians and other minority.
45:27Our flag, Mahatma Gandhi, is the solution ahead.
45:30We need pluralism, not Nehruvian secularism,
45:33but genuine, honest, positive secularism
45:36or Gandhian pluralism.
45:37In Mahatma Gandhi is the solution that we face
45:40of hatred that we have today.
45:43I appreciate all four of you for joining us.
45:45I apologize, we didn't have that much time.
45:47The next time we try and maybe expand the debate
45:49and do one bigger debate instead of the two
45:51that we had this evening,
45:52we leave it for our viewers to decide.
45:53And I would reckon it's time to boycott the boycott brigade
45:57because messaging needs to go out.
45:59Thank you for joining us.