On this episode of Scran Rosalind is at Inver restaurant on the shores of Loch Fyne in Argyll and Bute to hear about the Dived not Dredged campaign. This campaign, which is being run by Open Seas, is aiming to raise awareness of the damage being done by dredging for scallops and encourage the more sustainable practice of hand diving, which they believe all consumers have a role in.
Rosalind spoke to Andrea Ladas, Sustainable Seafood Officer for Open Seas, David Stinson, diver, Will Branning of the Sustainable Restaurant Association and Pam Brunton, co-owner and Head Chef at Inver.
In her discussions Rosalind looks at the issues with dredging for scallops, how this is impacting the sea bed and the fishing industry and considers what it means for chefs and consumers.
Rosalind spoke to Andrea Ladas, Sustainable Seafood Officer for Open Seas, David Stinson, diver, Will Branning of the Sustainable Restaurant Association and Pam Brunton, co-owner and Head Chef at Inver.
In her discussions Rosalind looks at the issues with dredging for scallops, how this is impacting the sea bed and the fishing industry and considers what it means for chefs and consumers.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to Scran, the podcast passionate about the Scottish food and drink scene. I'm
00:14your host, Ros and Erskine, and before we get to this week's episode, we have some
00:18brilliant news. We're pleased to announce that Scran has been shortlisted at two different
00:22award events that are happening over the next month, the Scottish Press Awards and the Publisher
00:26Podcast Awards, where we won two awards last year. Thanks to all our guests over the past
00:31year who have helped us achieve this, we'll let you know if we win.
00:37On this episode of Scran, I headed to Inver Restaurant on the shores of Loch Fyne in Argyll
00:41and Bute to hear about the Dive Not Dredge campaign. This campaign, which has been run
00:45by Open Seas, is aiming to raise awareness of the damage being done by dredging for scallops
00:50and encourage the more sustainable practice of hand diving, which they believe all consumers
00:55have a role in. First up, I spoke to Andrea Ladas, Sustainable Seafood Officer for Open
01:01Seas, who are behind the initiative. He told me all about the reasons for it and what they
01:06are asking of the government, restaurants and consumers.
01:10Orkney scallops is a great example because they got the name. Even in London, everyone
01:14wants Orkney scallops, everyone knows Orkney scallops, but sometimes the chefs, even if
01:18they pay the extra price, because they are more expensive, they are more valuable produces,
01:23they miss the opportunity to mention the catch method, besides the Orkney scallops.
01:29David Stinton, a diver of 50 plus years who has worked in many areas of the fishing industry,
01:34told me why he agrees this is a very worthwhile and urgent change that is required.
01:40You will know if you buy hand-dived scallops that you are actually contributing to the
01:45sustainability of the fishing industry and the marine environment.
01:51Next up, I chatted to Will Branning, who is Head of Growth at the Sustainable Restaurant
01:55Association, who are backing the campaign.
01:59Chefs are very, very busy people. We know restaurants want to be more sustainable, but
02:02sometimes the challenging thing is how do we do that?
02:07Pamela Brunton is the head chef and co-owner of the Celebrated Inver Restaurant and worked
02:11with a number of chefs from across the country to prepare some scallop-based dishes for those
02:15attending the event to enjoy. The food was really excellent and Pamela shared her passion
02:20for sustainability with me.
02:24We chose to come here to build a life and the connections that we've made with the people
02:28who bring us the produce is exactly that. That's our life.
02:36So I'm here outside Inver Restaurant on the banks of Loch Fyne. It's a beautiful, sunny
02:41day. There was geese flying about a minute ago. We're in the sunshine, we're having a
02:44coffee, we're living our best life and I'm here with Andrea. Hello.
02:49Hi Rosalind.
02:50How are you?
02:51Very good, very good.
02:52So could you just tell me a little bit about your job role?
02:55Yeah, sure. So I'm a sustainable seafood officer at Open Seas. My job within the organisation,
03:02which is very much focused on protecting marine habitats and supporting low-impact fishing,
03:08my job is mainly to work with the market, so with restaurants, hospitality, the other
03:14end of fishing and trying to encourage a more responsible consumption on a consumer point
03:20of view or responsible sourcing for businesses and restaurants and also basically raise awareness
03:28about the impacts of fishing in a way that can enable more informed choices.
03:33And can you tell us a bit about the Dive Not Dredge campaign, which is what we're here
03:36for today?
03:37The event we are hosting today here together with Inver is a part of the Dive Not Dredge
03:43campaign. The Dive Not Dredge campaign aims to support the scallop dive sector in Scotland
03:50and champion it as a great example of low-impact fishing that also produce, deliver quality
04:00and sustainable seafood. The campaign really zooms into this specific fishery, the scallop
04:07divers fishery, and try to raise awareness about their current challenges and also calls
04:14for protection, support and prioritisation of low-impact fishing methods. So that zooms
04:20out into more general sustainable seafood and low-impact fishing and specifically we
04:26think that these low-impact fishing methods should be prioritised in our waters over habitat
04:33harmful fishing methods like scallop dredging or bottom trawling if you talk about other
04:38species like langoustines for example. The campaign is calling for a change into the
04:43legislation calling for protecting at least the, or to start with the inshore waters,
04:48protecting them from these harmful fishing methods.
04:52Some noisy geese have just landed in the log.
04:55Yeah that's the inshore, the inshore waters where we at least we would seek for protection
04:59of this water and prioritising these fishing grounds towards low-impact fishermen also
05:04because these are the only fishing grounds like divers they can fish just to 50 metres
05:11so it's just the inshore waters they fish in. Also because inshore waters they are the
05:15nursery grounds for different marine species that they make the habitat function and thrive
05:23and they also produce the seafood. There is not a precise definition of inshore water
05:29but to give an example in Scotland and in pretty much all Europe it used to be a three
05:34miles limit ban on bottom trawling that lasted for over a century from 1884 I think might
05:42be wrong of a couple of years until 1984 so these three miles that were protected is what
05:47we could define inshore water.
05:52We'll hear more from Andrea shortly. I want you to talk to someone who has been directly
05:56involved with the industry. David Stinson has worked in many areas of the fishing industry
06:01so I asked him about the process of hand diving versus dredging.
06:07So we use scuba diving gear and usually on the west coast of Scotland we use a dry suit
06:12for reasons of the cold temperature of the water and we go down with a net bag and we search out
06:18the scallops which is a bit of a skill in itself. Often though nowadays of course you've got a good
06:24idea where to go because you've been there for years and you just literally pick them off the
06:29seabed by hand and you don't take anything else there's no bycatch and you don't disturb the
06:35seabed there's no collateral damage so it's a pure form of fishing really. And you've been doing this
06:41since the 70s so you'll have seen firsthand the changes on the seabed that the dredging makes.
06:47Absolutely yes the seabed around the coast of Britain has been
06:53trashed over decades by bottom impacting fishing methods but I'm old enough to remember what it
06:58used to look like before that started and that's quite important I think because it used to be
07:03you could compare it to the Red Sea or the Great Barrier Reef in terms of abundance and diversity
07:09not as colourful but yet there are some species around like cuckoo wrasse that are absolutely
07:14spectacular and they're just one of the species that's been impacted by bottom impacting fishing
07:21methods. Have you found that the hand dive business over your career is becoming more and more in
07:26demand just because people want that product? Yes when we started we had to land into the factories
07:31and we got very poor prices for that and gradually people business people started to realise that
07:36there was a premium in dive scallops because they were better quality mostly because we look after
07:43the catch better but also we tend to pick the more mature species. We fish shallower than a
07:50lot of the dredgers so the scallops are bigger they're up in the feed zone in the plankton
07:55and they attract a better price and people who know the difference would
08:02always prefer a dive scallop although you do have to pay more for them but they're a quality product
08:07you don't eat sirloin steak every day but you know it's a good quality. And how does the hand
08:12dive differ from how the dredgers treat their catch? Well we pick them up by hand and then they're
08:18brought up to the surface and then fairly soon after that we sort them on deck possibly grade
08:23them for size and as soon as possible they're returned into the sea in net bags or put in tanks
08:30on deck so that they're kept alive and in the absolutely top quality condition because we aim to
08:36establish that market difference and we get more money for a quality product it's in our
08:42interest to look after the product and it's not difficult to do but with dredgers they'll be
08:47first of all they're going to be rumbled along the seabed in the dredges as part of the catching
08:52process they get chipped they get the shells get destroyed to some degree chipped they get filled
08:58up with sand and debris they're then brought on deck and they're packed into bags and just stored
09:03in the hold often for several days before they're landed into the factories. The dredge scallops
09:08then they have to be cleaned they have to be washed and a lot of them because of their age
09:13and they're starting to deteriorate they wash them in a type of bleach solution before soaking them
09:19in fresh water which increases the size they then blast frozen so a lot of what you buy in the
09:25supermarket is actually just water that's added in the form of ice if you're buying frozen scallops
09:30that have been industrially fished. So being at the forefront of this what would your advice to
09:34chefs and consumers buying scallops and to seafood in general be? Well always seek out a quality
09:40product you will know if you buy hand-dive scallops that you're actually contributing
09:45to the sustainability of the fishing industry and the marine environment. If you buy industrially
09:51fish scallops part of that fishing process is destructive and you are then contributing to the
09:57destruction of the marine environment really. So if I wanted to and I wasn't coming to a restaurant
10:01how do I get that product into my house? Well you need to go to a proper fishmonger or you can
10:06source out people who are supplying fish to restaurants if you're going into a hotel or
10:10restaurant you can ask ask the staff and say are these hand-dive scallops if they're if they're on
10:16the menu certainly you can you can easily source these with just a bit of investigation but they're
10:21they're not as easy as going into the supermarket and just picking a packet of frozen scallops out
10:26the deep freeze. Well thank you very much it's been very interesting. Thank you very much it's
10:31been lovely to talk to you. I sat down with Will Branning of the Sustainable Restaurant Association
10:38and started by asking him to explain what his organisation does. We're an organisation that
10:44it's been around for about 15 years really we exist to drive for a more socially progressive
10:49and environmentally restorative hospitality sector. What that really means is we're about
10:54supporting hospitality businesses, restaurants, you know universities, caterers to become more
11:00sustainable in their operations and the main way that we do that is through a certification we have
11:06but it's really a tool for improvement which is called Food Make Good. So what we do with a
11:10restaurant is we take a look across all of their operations so not just the kind of the green side
11:15but the people side as well so we look at environmental aspects where they're buying from
11:18their sourcing and also the sort of social aspects so how do they interact with their staff and the
11:23community that they're a part of. We assess them and sort of give them a bit of a rating as to
11:27where they are at the moment which is a star rating so you can get anywhere between zero and
11:32three stars but then we support them on that journey going forward so we build them a bit of
11:36an action plan as to here's the areas where you could improve and here is tangibly how you could
11:41improve you know we know chefs are very very busy people we know restaurants want to be more
11:45sustainable but sometimes the challenging thing is how do we do that and that's what we're here
11:50to do really is to kind of help them and give them almost the practical actions and practical next
11:54steps as to in the context of your restaurant here's how you could be more sustainable and have
11:58more positive impact. I asked Will if he found consumers were considering provenance when it
12:03came to catch methods of seafood. One of the things that we're often asked from restaurants
12:09is you know how do we talk about sustainability and I think one of the aspects that we kind of
12:15highlight to them is actually one of the areas that guests really engage with is that provenance
12:18piece right that storytelling piece you know especially if you're in a beautiful area like
12:22this where you get lots of tourists come to visit for the local produce the local environment
12:27actually what they really engage with is ingredients, products, dishes that kind of
12:31speak to that environment because they want to be part of where they're at right like where
12:35they're visiting and I think the great thing about hand-off scallops and ingredients such as that
12:39is that not only are there clear kind of environmental benefits to that kind of method of
12:44catch but actually there's often a great story behind that as well right the story of the diver
12:48the story of the the kind of local fishers and things like that so it actually means that they
12:53can have that positive impact whilst actually telling a really compelling story to guests
12:57whether that be on their menus or their websites or things like that so it's kind of a double benefit
13:02to engaging in these sort of low-impact fishing methods it's not only great from an environmental
13:09point of view which which people care about and they want to talk about but also from that
13:13storytelling point of view. I think probably just the other aspect when it comes to that and in
13:17particular with the with the fishers and restaurants like this in fishing communities and
13:21diving communities is more of a recognition that you know they want these ingredients to be here
13:27long into the future right they they need these because it's part of their makeup it's part of
13:31what they do as a restaurant and it's that increasing recognition of actually well we need
13:36to focus on those methods that do have a lower impact so that we can ensure that they are here
13:41into the future not just from an environmental point of view but even from a commercial point
13:44of view as a restaurant. These things will be more expensive but do you find or have you found
13:49that consumers if they are very interested in that type of thing are willing to pay the extra or chefs
13:54willing to pay the extra like how's that sort of working out? It's a challenging conversation in
13:58particular at the moment with the the cost pressures across all fronts really facing
14:02restaurants and I think sometimes the choice around sustainability isn't always the cheapest
14:07sadly but I think there's there's kind of two elements to it there's one element which is
14:13that point I've just mentioned there of the longevity right I think a lot of chefs realize
14:17that that if they want these ingredients to be here in the future they need to focus on
14:22methods that are going to keep them here in the future and that does come with an extra cost.
14:26I think interestingly talking to the chefs last night I think they spoke about how the hand-dived
14:31scallops often come with a greater quality right a greater kind of level of taste kind of less gritty
14:36because of the way that the product is caught and you know therefore if it's a higher quality
14:40ingredient that helped them to kind of put a higher price to it as well. I think there is a
14:44level of understanding that if you want those high quality ingredients there is a higher price to it.
14:48I think the piece on consumers is interesting I think there is definitely a pool of consumers
14:52out there that look for more sustainable kind of ingredients and and kind of associate that
14:56with a higher cost and we see that across not just scallops but you know all sorts of ingredients
15:00but I would tie it back to that that kind of provenance piece is I actually think that's
15:04the real storytelling piece that something like hand-dived scallops really gives you that can
15:08kind of help you or help a restaurant sell that at a slightly higher price. And have you ever found
15:13that a restaurant says they're hand-dive scallops and actually they're really not? Well I think what
15:17we see more when it comes to this sort of area is people not mentioning how they're caught. I
15:23think what we see is people very proudly talking about hand-dived scallops but less common is
15:29actually what we see is they're not mentioning the method of catch at all and I think that's
15:33really challenging because I think it kind of shows a lack of transparency and a lack of
15:37letting kind of guests know how they're caught and therefore kind of reduces their ability to make
15:42an informed choice as to whether they want that dish or not. So you know I think that's the kind
15:47of the biggest challenge I think part of the OpenSea's report kind of showed that you know
15:51there are a number of people that do talk about you know the method of catch but every everyone
15:55that they'd surveyed had mentioned the method of catch it was hand-caught right so or hand-dived.
16:00So I think that's probably the biggest challenge when it comes to communication on menu is that
16:04rather than kind of misleading I think sometimes there's just an omission where where it's not
16:08being caught in a kind of low impact way. You know one of the things that I would always
16:12encourage is if you're not sure and you can't see on the menu then it's worth asking the team
16:15right and worth asking the chef or your waiting staff about how was that caught. That's
16:21actually always a really powerful way of changing this conversation right one of the things that will
16:25help this to become more mainstream is more people demanding it therefore there's more people able
16:30out there to catch it and then hopefully in the long term you know that helps to bring the cost
16:34of this doing this down because of the economies of scale right. So one of the most powerful ways
16:38that you can influence that as a guest is if you do see a situation where it's not kind of called
16:42out on the menu have a conversation with the waiting staff and if you feel comfortable doing
16:46so and it's not kind of hand-dived maybe sort of mention that's why you're not ordering it because
16:50it kind of helps to show the demand and signal to the chef well actually maybe this is a change I
16:54should make because guests care about that. The assembled group of food writers, influencers,
17:00politicians and those with an interest in this area were treated to an excellent meal based on
17:04sustainable practices with hand-dived scallops at its centerpiece. Pamela Brunton led a team
17:10of top chefs to prepare this meal and I spoke to her afterwards about it.
17:17Hello Pam thank you so much for having us for lunch it was wonderful. You guys have been here
17:21for 10 years sustainability is at the complete heart of what you do but could you just tell us
17:26about where the passion for all that came from and what made you set Inver up? I think if you
17:31care about place you have to kind of take care of place and Inver has been our way into a community
17:37here. Sustainability to me is about taking care of all of the people both in within Inver and
17:45around us as well as the the natural environment that we depend on and obviously like the economic
17:50side of things we have to make it work but not at the expense of everything else. That's finding
17:55our place in an ecosystem which we depend on to thrive if it doesn't thrive then neither do we.
18:02So we're talking a lot today obviously it's been about dive not dredge scallops that's a big part
18:08of your ethos if you've always kind of sort of championed that so what have you seen over the
18:12last 10 years it's become people have become more interested in it? Yeah I think sustainability
18:16generally has become a more core part of everyone's agenda. I don't think there can be anyone who is
18:22unaware of climate crisis and crisis of biodiversity and the social crises that are
18:30all over the planet at the minute so I don't think anybody can any longer be unaware of what the
18:37issues are and it's about helping everybody now find a way through it all so that we can all come
18:42out the other end with a living planet and a life that we can all enjoy. How does your ethos of
18:47sustainability translate onto the plate? I mean first and foremost I think sustainability is about
18:52getting the best quality ingredients because the ingredients from dived scallops and creeled
18:58langoustines to organically produced fruit and vegetables or humanely raised animals are really
19:05ultimately about getting the best quality product which is what chefs love. For me particularly in
19:11this place I want to be able to tell the story of a place and I can't tell the story of a place
19:15without knowing where my ingredients came from. We are so lucky to have a community around us
19:20whose names I know Mary and Kate and Fraser and Ian and Alistair and Fiona these are our neighbours
19:27these are our friends these are people whose children have worked in the kitchen whose dining
19:31tables I have sat around and I am always going to be championing them as well as their produce and
19:38it's that way that I get meaning for my own life it's by that way I provide a meaningful
19:46experience for my staff who work with us they find themselves grounded in a community in a place
19:52as well they become part of a story and it's a story that they all love to tell. I can't do that
19:58if it's produce I don't have faith in people where I don't know where it's come from there is no
20:05provenance it's an unlabeled bag of carrot or or fish in a polystyrene box that I have no
20:13traceability for it's come from some industrial supply chain that I really can't verify myself
20:19it's not how I want to live. We chose to come here to build a life and the connections that
20:23we've made with the people who bring us the produce is is exactly that that's our life.
20:28And what would you say are the main challenges of being this sustainable? Well for instance we live
20:32and work right on the shores of Loch Fyne which is a huge sea loch and people come here expecting
20:38fin fish lots of fish on the menu and they'll say you know why why do you have so little fish on the
20:43menu you're like well it used to be a great herring loch it was over fished in the 70s so now
20:50there virtually is no fin fish in Loch Fyne apart from the summer mackerel so we rely heavily on
20:56shellfish like the creeled langoustines and the hand-dived scallops and small producers of oysters
21:04or mussels on the loch and it's imperative that we treat the loch with care or we will lose these
21:11things as well there are already holes on my menu I don't want any more. So we're standing here and I
21:17can see the tops of some of your shepherd huts you've got accommodation here so it was important
21:21for you guys to diversify the business as well into accommodation? Yeah absolutely I mean
21:26restaurant businesses particularly in rural locations are very fragile so having the accommodation
21:32and the income stream from that really kind of sustains the restaurant as well as providing this
21:38fantastic experience for people who can come and just spend a bit longer in this amazing location
21:43they can explore the environment explore the bay themselves and then come in and eat a dinner
21:50that's made from all the ingredients that they've been walking through and then spend the night and
21:55have the fantastic breakfast in the morning it becomes this more immersive experience a way of
22:00letting us share the landscape with the guests a bit deeply but also from a business point of view
22:07it's an income stream that we really need the income from the room sustains the restaurant
22:11and the restaurant is the draw for the room so together it kind of works. So yeah you wrote a
22:16book towards the end of last year which had from the sounds of what you've mentioned so far is like
22:20talking about your journey into what it is you're doing and why you're doing it could you just tell
22:24us a little bit about that and any kind of exciting plans you've got coming up for the rest of this
22:27year? Yeah so my first book Between Two Waters Heritage Landscape and the Modern Cook explores
22:35Scottish food culture and where it's come from why we've got to the place that we are what normal
22:43means for Scottish food today but also what it could mean and the much much bigger implications
22:50for the wider community and the planet itself. It's really a manifesto about life itself I guess
22:57as much as it's about the restaurant and it's just won the Fortnum and Mason's food book of the year
23:02prize for 2025 which is a fantastic honour I'm so delighted about that. It's our 10th birthday year
23:10so we've we've been here for 10 years now and we've got a number of celebrations coming up just
23:14to acknowledge all of the people that have contributed to our journey so far there's a
23:20guest chef event next month where we're bringing back five of our favourite chefs from over the last
23:2510 years to cook in the Edinburgh kitchen again which I really can't wait it's going to be a very
23:29emotional night. Congratulations on your award and thank you again for your time and such a lovely
23:33lunch thank you. You're extremely welcome thank you so much for coming it's something that
23:38really matters I think to everyone whether they know it or not.
23:47I asked Andrea just how widespread and urgent a problem dredging for scallops currently is.
23:54We think it's very urgent and it's on a very large scale. Today 95% of Scottish water by the
24:03current regulation are allowed to be dredged this means pretty much everything. We are calling for
24:08more protection as we said on the inshore waters and on the marine protected areas which they've
24:14been declared 10 years ago 32 marine protected areas but just few of them they have protection
24:20from damaging fisheries so definitely this is a very urgent problem on the fishing grounds
24:25on the current regulations but also on the market pretty much all 96% of the scallops
24:32Scottish scallops which they're also an important species for the Scottish seafood reputation 96%
24:38of these scallops they are caught by dredging today but there are areas like Orkney where
24:43they are a great example because in some regions like like Orkney hand diving is the main catch
24:48method for scallops and other regions like the west coast showing signs that hand diving might
24:54be growing here producing amazing quality scallops just as in Orkney so we think there is an urgent
25:01need for change towards prioritization of scallop diving and low impact fishing for Scottish water
25:07and to produce quality and low impact seafood. That's good to know so if you see Orkney scallops
25:12on a menu they're more than likely to be hand dived. Exactly so we go back again Orkney scallops
25:17is a great example because they got the name even in London everyone wants Orkney scallops
25:21everyone knows Orkney scallops but sometimes the chefs even if they pay the extra price
25:26because they are more expensive they are more valuable produces they miss the opportunity to
25:31mention the catch method beside that Orkney scallops and for example again within the
25:37ecosystem of our campaign going back to the food guides pretty much 100% of the Michelin community
25:43chefs they cook with hand-dived scallops so we want this to be highlighted within the seafood and
25:50the food community because everyone is looking what Michelin chefs are doing and slowly that
25:55trickles down into the corner shop or a cafe what they want to do so we hope that everyone
26:01will follow that example if Michelin for example and these food guides they are highlighting this
26:06by following the example of cooking with more sustainable seafood. These things cannot be
26:11phased out from one day to the other we're aware that there are people lives behind this job we're
26:15just asking for better management of these fisheries of both fisheries even divers they
26:20need to be well regulated and dredgers need to be well regulated. Well thank you very much it's
26:24been really interesting to find out more and I'm looking forward to trying some hand-dive scallops
26:28later. Yeah no thanks so much for joining us today thank you very much.
26:34Thanks to my guests for being on this episode and thanks to you two for listening
26:38please remember to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Scran
26:43and please consider asking where your scallops have come from next time you're in a restaurant.
26:47The Scran Awards are back for 2025 and nominations are still open
26:51they close on Friday the 16th of May so there's still time to nominate your favourite chef,
26:56restaurant, whisky or best newcomer. Head to www.scranawards.co.uk to find out more,
27:03nominate and buy tickets for this year's awards ceremony which is taking place in June in Glasgow.
27:11Scran is co-produced and hosted by me Ros Anderson and co-produced by
27:14me Ros Anderson and co-produced edited and mixed by Kelly Crichton.
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