The Scotsman Bulletin Tuesday May 13 2025 #AssistedDying
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Scotsman's Daily Video Bulletin for this Tuesday. My name's Dale
00:05Miller, I'm Deputy Editor of the Scotsman and I'm joined by Deputy Political Editor
00:10David Boll. David, we're talking today ahead of a crunch vote on assisted dying, the Scotland
00:18Bill. Obviously, there's different legislation going through Westminster, but the vote at
00:23stage one is tonight. We're expecting it to be about 7pm. We're recording this ahead
00:28of the vote. I'm going to talk to you in detail about that shortly, but firstly, the front
00:33page of today's Scotsman. And we led on some exclusive lines around the immigration crackdown.
00:41Sir Keir Starmer gave a detailed speech on Monday and a white paper is being published on plan
00:48changes to the immigration system. It will include a complete crackdown on visas for social
00:56care workers, from those coming in from overseas or outside the UK. And comments through from
01:04Avira Robert Kilgore, who's attached to the aged social care sector, calling it a guillotine
01:13on the care sector. We know there is a significant number of staff that are employed throughout
01:19the sector here in Scotland on these visas. Under the changes, they would not be allowed
01:26to come in or fresh stuff wouldn't be allowed to come in. And it would clearly put pressure
01:31on care homes and the system in general to find employees to fill those key roles. Some
01:38concerns about just how feasible that is and even whether it will lead to care home closures
01:43on the back of it. And we see the story in the wing there from yourself, David, which we'll
01:48expand on now, which is on assisted dying. Len MacArthur, the Scottish Lib Dems MSP was
01:54making a last minute push of sorts, shall we say. Just talk through firstly, his position
02:03and what he set out and why he thinks people should vote for it and just where things sit
02:07ahead of the vote later today.
02:08Yeah, so this isn't the first attempt we've had at Holyrood is someone trying to legislate
02:13to legalise assisted dying. Essentially, people over the age of 18, it's 16 in the legislation,
02:22but Mr. MacArthur has indicated that at stage two, he would change that to 18 after some,
02:28I think, including the first minister had raised concerns about the age limit. So we'll be able
02:32to essentially be assisted in taking the life if they're terminally ill and they're mentally
02:38competent enough to make that decision. There's lots of safeguards in place, such having a period
02:43of reflection and two doctors needing to sign it off. But as you said, he's kind of made
02:48a last ditch attempt to get as much support as he needs to get this over the line. He'll
02:53need 65 MSPs to back him in the vote in the chamber. Last time around in 2015, it was just
03:0036. So of them, only about 15 or 16 are still in MSP. So there's a lot of different people.
03:08It's very unpredictable and very difficult to know how this vote will go. Liam MacArthur basically making
03:15the point today, this morning, that if we do nothing, if nothing changes, that has consequences
03:20too, for some of these people who are at the end of their life that feel quite desperate.
03:25We know some people have taken matters into their own hand or have gone to Switzerland to
03:30obtain an assisted death there. So whatever you think on assisted dying, I think it is fair
03:36to say that if we keep the status quo, there are still consequences for these people at the
03:42end of their life. David, we've had three heavyweights within the SNP that have come out and said
03:49they're voting against in the build-up. John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon and Kate Forbes.
03:54We know Neil Grey's health secretary is going to abstain. How significant is that, that such
04:02three substantial figures within the Scottish Government have come out and said that they're
04:06not going to vote for this legislation in the days before the actual first vote?
04:10It's obviously, if people come out in support of it, the campaign would be quite happy and say,
04:17well, look, these figureheads are kind of leading the way, but they are just three votes. It is very
04:23much not on party lines this, but they are still very influential people, particularly the first
04:27minister. I think had Nicola Sturgeon come out at the time she was first minister at the prime of her
04:33leadership, I think that would have been extremely influential on a lot of SNP backbenchers. I'm not
04:39sure the same is there for John Swinney, not to criticise him. I just don't think he has that kind of
04:45weight that she once did with her party, but obviously it will influence some people and
04:50they've raised lots of quite severe concerns about the principle of the bill, not just the sort of
04:55technicalities that could be ironed out later on. But again, it's a free vote, everyone will be
05:01voting on their own conscience, so it will be interesting to see how the vote goes.
05:05Yeah, one of those rare cases where we could have some significant figures inside the SNP and the
05:12Scottish Government voting in favour for this legislation. I know it's been mentioned in the
05:17build-up that Social Justice Secretary Shirley Ann Somerville could be amongst SNP politicians
05:24voting for the legislation. David, I just wanted to ask, third time at trying to pass an assisted dying
05:33bill through Holyrood. Why does it keep coming back to Parliament? What's the driving force in?
05:39Well, I think as I mentioned before, the status quo doesn't work. It's not, something kind of needs
05:45to change. There's this point to palliative care and the lack of good provision of that in Scotland,
05:52and critics of the bill will say, well, we just need to improve that. But that hasn't happened.
05:56So that, and Liam McArthur is very quick to stress that this bill, if it does go through,
06:05needs to go alongside improved palliative care. It's not seen as an alternative. And I think this
06:11question just, it's one of those things that is a moral question. It won't go away until it is
06:16resolved one way or another. And if people feel, and the campaigners feel that there isn't an adequate
06:22support for people at the end of their life, then this question will just, just keep coming back.
06:26We've seen in other countries, the law be extended and that has kind of played into some
06:31of the fears. In Canada, for example, it started off as fraternally ill people that's been extended to
06:38people who have like a foreseeable death at the end of an illness. And there are now plans to extend
06:43that to severely mentally ill people in Canada that's been held up. But this is one of the fears
06:49that Don Swinney kind of raised that down the line, it could be extended. And there's so many
06:54different models across the world that I think you can probably find some problems with either of them.
06:59People, including Don Swinney and critics have said that this bill is the best one we've seen.
07:05But it's very difficult to put this issue back into a box.
07:10You can read up on everything in the build up to tonight's vote at scotsman.com.
07:16Please go to the health tab in our navigation bar. You'll find the latest coverage.
07:21David's done an excellent analysis of just what you need to know, what the bill would bring into
07:27action if it were passed, also how some of the key members may vote around it, the timings of the vote,
07:35and just how the process will play out from here. We've also got a key lead story up on Liam McArthur
07:41talking about effectively why he thinks politicians in the chamber should back his assisted dying bill.
07:50Please follow us on all social media channels. We'll be bringing you the very latest from the
07:54vote later today and pick up a copy of the Scotsman imprint tomorrow where you'll get a full wrap,
08:00including analysis of what the vote tonight means. David, thanks to you and thanks to everyone else for joining us.