The House Natural Resources Committee holds a field hearing in Cedar City, Utah, entitled, "Letting Off Steam: Unleashing Geothermal Energy Development on Federal Land."
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00:00:00Before we begin, I'd like to remind everybody about the rules of decorum for official congressional proceedings.
00:00:07I ask that there not be any kind of disruption regarding the testimony given here today.
00:00:12It is important that we respect the rules of the committee and of the House,
00:00:17and to allow the members and the public to hear our proceedings.
00:00:21The Subcommittee on Energy and Minerals Resources will come to order.
00:00:31Good afternoon, everyone.
00:00:32I want to welcome our witnesses, members, and our guests in the audience today for today's hearing.
00:00:40And I also want to thank Representative Malloy for hosting us here in Cedar City.
00:00:44I would now like to recognize Southern Utah University Student President Landon Lee,
00:00:52who will begin this hearing with an opening prayer, followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:00:58Landon, come on up.
00:01:04Hey, everybody, if you will, can you please bow your heads?
00:01:10Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day.
00:01:13We thank you for the amazing people that's come out here to represent us in Utah.
00:01:18Please bless us and give us guidance as we go through this meeting,
00:01:22and give us the strength to power forward through this.
00:01:25We thank you again, Heavenly Father, for everything you've given us
00:01:28and the opportunities that we can take as a person.
00:01:31We say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
00:01:35Please arise with me as I say the Pledge of Allegiance.
00:01:38I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
00:01:46and to the republic for which it stands,
00:01:49one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
00:01:55Thank you all.
00:01:56Thank you, Landon.
00:01:59Today, we are at Southern Utah University for a House Committee on Natural Resources
00:02:06oversight hearing entitled Letting Off Steam,
00:02:10Unleashing Geothermal Energy Development on Federal Land.
00:02:14Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time.
00:02:19By way of introduction, I'm Pete Stauber,
00:02:21chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee,
00:02:24subcommittee at Energy and Minerals Resources.
00:02:26I also represent Minnesota's 8th congressional district covering northeastern Minnesota.
00:02:32I am grateful to be joined today by two of my colleagues.
00:02:36I ask unanimous consent that the gentlelady from Utah, Ms. Malloy,
00:02:40be allowed to participate in today's hearing without objection, so ordered.
00:02:45I also ask unanimous consent that all other members' opening statements
00:02:49be made part of the hearing record if they are submitted in accordance with Rule 3-0.
00:02:56Without objection, so ordered.
00:02:58I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.
00:03:02I'd like to begin by thanking all the witnesses for being here to discuss this important topic before us today.
00:03:09I'd also like to thank Firvo Energy for leading an exciting and informative field tour
00:03:14of the cutting-edge Cape Station project just this morning.
00:03:18In the coming years, the United States will face unprecedented growth in energy demand
00:03:23as we race to win the AI war against China and bring gigawatts of new data center capacity online.
00:03:31And all of the above, approach for energy development is the only option we have to move forward.
00:03:36As we saw today, reliable, clean, baseload, geothermal power has incredible potential to help meet our growing needs.
00:03:45Geothermal plants already supply power across seven states and Hawaii, and that's just the beginning.
00:03:53For example, the Department of Energy estimates that next-generation geothermal technologies,
00:03:58like the Enhanced Geothermal System, or EGS, that we toured this morning,
00:04:04could provide up to 90 gigawatts of electricity by 2050,
00:04:08enough to power millions of homes and businesses across this great nation.
00:04:15Unfortunately, cumbersome leasing and permitting practices on federal lands
00:04:20have prolonged project timelines and increased cost for geothermal developers.
00:04:25I'm proud to say that House Republicans are leading the charge to end these inefficiencies
00:04:30and unleash geothermal energy on federal lands.
00:04:34Just last week, the House Natural Resources Committee advanced its historic reconciliation title,
00:04:42which will generate $18.5 billion in new revenue and savings for the American people.
00:04:48This package includes mandates for annual geothermal leases, lease sales rather,
00:04:54which will contribute $23 million in revenue for the federal government
00:04:58and increase certainty for geothermal energy producers.
00:05:02While these changes are a vital step in the right direction,
00:05:05there is much more work to be done to allow geothermal power to scale up and reach its full potential.
00:05:13The Bureau of Land Management, or BLM, oversees geothermal development on federal lands.
00:05:20In fact, geothermal energy was the first type of renewable energy that the BLM approved for production on federal lands,
00:05:27dating back to 1978.
00:05:29However, as we've seen from other forms of energy operating on public lands,
00:05:34the permitting process for geothermal is mirrored by duplicative requirements and lengthy regulatory delays.
00:05:41Federal geothermal projects must complete up to six stages of National Environmental Policy Act,
00:05:47or NEPA, review throughout the development process.
00:05:51This can take up to 10 years and does not include endless cycles of frivolous litigation.
00:05:56We can and must do better.
00:05:59To address these barriers, Republican members of the House Natural Resources Committee have championed legislation
00:06:04that limits NEPA reviews for low-impact geothermal activities in previously studied areas,
00:06:11forces the BLM to process geothermal permits in a timely manner,
00:06:16and ensures that the geothermal wells on non-federal lands are not subject to delays
00:06:22in our broken federal regulatory process.
00:06:25If enacted, these provisions would provide geothermal developers greater certainty needed
00:06:31to spur investment in research, development, exploration, and production.
00:06:37While these pieces of legislation are a great start,
00:06:40I look forward to hearing from our witnesses to identify further reforms and ideas
00:06:45to responsibly expedite the geothermal permitting process.
00:06:49As we know, America has a wealth of resources right here at home
00:06:53that can satisfy our growing energy needs and produce reliable, baseload power.
00:06:59We must work together to responsibly develop these resources
00:07:02to put America back on a path of strength.
00:07:06I again want to thank the witnesses for joining us today,
00:07:09and I look forward to hearing your testimony.
00:07:12I now want to recognize Representative Malloy for her opening statement.
00:07:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:07:21Welcome to Utah.
00:07:22Welcome to the 2nd District.
00:07:24I want to thank everyone who's here participating,
00:07:26and especially SUU for hosting.
00:07:29It's good to be back here.
00:07:31For far too long, the promise of geothermal energy has gone underappreciated
00:07:35and underutilized in our national energy conversation.
00:07:39Despite its incredible potential, geothermal space regulatory delays,
00:07:43permitting hurdles, and a lack of investment that doesn't match the scale of the opportunity.
00:07:48Let me be clear.
00:07:49Geothermal is reliable and affordable.
00:07:52Unlike intermittent sources, geothermal delivers steady, 24-7 baseload power.
00:07:56It doesn't depend on weather or foreign supply chains.
00:07:59It's a homegrown resource sitting right under our feet.
00:08:02At a time when our electric grid is under stress
00:08:04and global energy markets are incredibly unstable,
00:08:07we need dependable domestic energy sources.
00:08:10Geothermal offers exactly that resilient American energy that we can count on day and night.
00:08:15Utah's leading the way in showing what's possible.
00:08:17Earlier today, we had the chance to look at the groundbreaking work being done by Fervo Energy in Beaver County
00:08:22and their pioneering enhanced geothermal systems, EGS, here in Utah's 2nd District.
00:08:29These innovations are putting our state on the map as a model for innovative and dispatchable energy solutions.
00:08:34EGS represents a game-changing opportunity.
00:08:36It can unlock geothermal energy in places where conventional geothermal just hasn't been feasible,
00:08:42vastly expanding the resource base.
00:08:44With the right regulatory framework, we can make EGS a major part of our national energy strategy.
00:08:49Geothermal also means good jobs here in Utah, especially in rural communities like those in the West Desert.
00:08:54From drilling crews to high-tech engineers, these are careers that can support families and strengthen local economies.
00:09:00That's why there's growing bipartisan support for removing barriers
00:09:03and letting geothermal compete on a level playing field with other energy sources.
00:09:07Despite this progress, geothermal still faces significant challenges.
00:09:11Complex and outdated permitting processes slow down projects and create uncertainty for developers.
00:09:15Even when the geology is ideal, it can take years to get a green light to drill.
00:09:21In states like Utah, where so much promising geothermal potential lies beneath federally managed lands,
00:09:26the permitting backlog is especially problematic.
00:09:28Developers are forced to navigate the maze of duplicative reviews, unclear timelines, and inconsistent agency coordination.
00:09:34This bureaucratic tangle discourages investment and leaves too many high-potential projects stuck in limbo.
00:09:39That's why I introduced the GEO Act to modernize geothermal permitting by ensuring federal agencies act promptly,
00:09:45even when projects face delays from ongoing court proceedings.
00:09:49And also, the Streamlining Thermal Energy Through Advanced Mechanics, or STEAM Act,
00:09:55to ensure that geothermal development isn't hindered by unnecessary regulatory delays.
00:10:00It gives geothermal projects the same flexibility oil and gas has had for almost two decades.
00:10:04Today's hearing is an opportunity to identify real, actionable steps Congress can take to unleash geothermal development.
00:10:12From permitting reform to interagency coordination, we need a system that works for innovators, not against them.
00:10:17And we need to be able to produce power here in this country and here in this state.
00:10:21And I'm excited to see us having a hearing about how to do that better.
00:10:24Thank you for being here, and I yield back.
00:10:27I thank the gentlelady for her statement.
00:10:29We will now move to introduce our witnesses.
00:10:32Let me remind the witnesses that under committee rules, they must limit their oral statements to five minutes.
00:10:38But their entire statement will appear in the hearing record.
00:10:42We use timing lights.
00:10:42When you begin, the light will turn green.
00:10:44When you have one minute remaining, the light will turn yellow.
00:10:46And at the end of your testimony, the five minutes, the light will turn red.
00:10:50And I will ask you to please complete your statement.
00:10:53I will also allow all witnesses to testify before member questioning.
00:10:59Our first witness this afternoon is Mr. Tim Latimer, and he is the chief executive officer at Fervo Energy, and he is stationed in Houston, Texas.
00:11:08Mr. Latimer, you are now recognized for five minutes.
00:11:13Chairman Stauber, Representative Malloy, Representative Begich, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you.
00:11:19I'm Tim Latimer, the co-founder and CEO of Fervo Energy, and it is an honor to be with you here today in Cedar City and at the SUU campus again to discuss the progress that Fervo Energy has made, specifically at Projects Cape Station, which is located just an hour north of here, which we got to visit today.
00:11:35Cape Station is the world's largest next generation geothermal facility.
00:11:38It's the result of over a decade of collaboration between Fervo, the people of Utah, the federal government, this committee, and a broad coalition of investors, researchers, and commercial partners.
00:11:48But more importantly, Cape Station represents the start of something bigger, a new era of American energy, built with American innovation, American technology, and American workers.
00:11:57When we founded Fervo eight years ago, we asked the simple question, if America could unlock the shale revolution through breakthrough technologies in oil and gas, why couldn't we do the same for geothermal?
00:12:09The answer, it turns out, is that we can, and now we have.
00:12:12By adapting technologies such as directional drilling, fiber optic sensing, and hydraulic fracturing techniques from the oil and gas sector, we've unlocked geothermal energy in places where it was previously impossible.
00:12:21In 2023, we demonstrated this with Project Red in Nevada, a commercial pilot that validated enhanced geothermal systems as a true technological breakthrough, and began generating electricity for the first time in October of that year.
00:12:33It set new records for an individual enhanced geothermal well's flow and power output, and it laid the foundation for what we're now building at the Cape Station.
00:12:42Cape Station will provide 500 megawatts of firm, reliable, carbon-free, round-the-clock power, enough to serve hundreds of thousands of homes.
00:12:50And construction is well underway.
00:12:52We've already drilled more than half the wells needed for the phase one, and partnered with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to start construction of three on-site power plants.
00:12:59This isn't a concept or a pilot.
00:13:01Cape Station is a full-scale energy project in motion.
00:13:04What makes Cape special isn't just the technology.
00:13:07It's the community.
00:13:09We're not just developing energy here.
00:13:10We're building a future with and for southwestern Utah.
00:13:14We're creating good-paying jobs that don't disappear when construction ends,
00:13:17jobs that last for decades, and jobs that people can build a life around.
00:13:21Families in Beaver County and Millard County will see real, lasting benefits because of this project.
00:13:25President Trump has spoken about the need for energy projects that don't just power homes but power prosperity,
00:13:30support American workers, and strengthen the fabric of local communities.
00:13:34Cape Station is exactly that.
00:13:35It's not just an energy solution.
00:13:37It's a commitment to this place and to the people who make it strong.
00:13:39Of course, innovation alone is not enough.
00:13:44To unlock geothermal's full potential, we need smart federal policy.
00:13:48Today, 90% of geothermal resources lie beneath federally managed land,
00:13:53but permitting can take up to a decade, much longer than equivalent wind, solar, oil, or gas projects.
00:13:58That needs to change.
00:14:00And bipartisan bills like Congressman Fulcher's Clean Act
00:14:03and Senator Curtis's Geothermal Energy Opportunity Act are strong steps in the right direction.
00:14:07We also need federal investment in geothermal R&D and demonstration.
00:14:12The shale revolution was made possible through decades of public-private partnership.
00:14:16Let's apply that same model to next-generation geothermal,
00:14:19especially tackling drilling risk, which remains a key barrier to national deployment.
00:14:23We're encouraged by the initial 2026 budget request focused on firm baseload power,
00:14:28and we look forward to working with you to ensure geothermal is part of the strategy.
00:14:32In 2019, the Department of Energy's GeoVision report projected geothermal could grow 15-fold by 2050.
00:14:41Thanks to recent advances, even those numbers now appear conservative.
00:14:45Studies now estimate we can unlock over 230 gigawatts of geothermal power in the United States alone.
00:14:51That's more than enough to power half the country.
00:14:53At Cape Station, we're taking the first steps to make those projections a reality.
00:14:59Thank you for being here.
00:15:00We're proud to show you what we've built and excited to work with you to build America's geothermal future.
00:15:07I look forward to your questions.
00:15:09Thank you very much for your testimony.
00:15:12Our next witness is Mr. Jake Garfield,
00:15:14and he is the Deputy Director of the Utah Office of Energy Development,
00:15:18and he is stationed in Salt Lake City, Utah.
00:15:21You're up for five minutes.
00:15:22Representative Staubber, Representative Malloy, and Representative Begich,
00:15:29thank you so much for the chance to be here today.
00:15:31My name is Jake Garfield.
00:15:33I'm the Deputy Director for the Utah Office of Energy Development.
00:15:35We're a state agency whose mission is to bring new energy sources to Utah
00:15:39and make sure that Utah's energy remains reliable and affordable.
00:15:44We are so excited about the potential of geothermal energy in Utah
00:15:48and so grateful for the investments from the private sector,
00:15:51from companies such as Fervo and Ormat,
00:15:54and we're so grateful for the investments being made by the Department of Energy
00:15:58and the University of Utah and other parties in the FORGE project.
00:16:01In Utah, 42% of our land is managed by the BLM,
00:16:05and in the West Desert, most of our geothermal resources are located.
00:16:08That percentage is even higher.
00:16:10That presents both opportunities and challenges,
00:16:12and we're grateful to the administration of the Congress
00:16:15in helping us work through those challenges.
00:16:17We're also grateful for the BLM personnel at the state office,
00:16:21the local field offices,
00:16:22who I believe are doing their best to work through some of those challenges
00:16:25and help move geothermal projects forward.
00:16:27Today, I'd like to make four suggestions on how we could make changes
00:16:35both at the policy level and at the legislative level
00:16:38to help make progress on geothermal issues at the Bureau of Land Management.
00:16:44First, the BLM really should put more land into their annual geothermal lease sales.
00:16:50In the last five years, the Utah BLM has put up a little over 160,000 acres
00:16:57for geothermal lease sale in Utah.
00:17:00In that same time period, the Nevada BLM put over 700,000 acres up for lease sale,
00:17:06over 4.4 times the amount of land that went up for lease sale in Utah.
00:17:11The last geothermal lease sale that the Utah BLM did was fantastic.
00:17:14It was very successful, but it was significantly larger
00:17:17than the past four years of lease sales.
00:17:21This discrepancy between Utah and Nevada is even more stark
00:17:24when you consider that the Nevada BLM hasn't even held their 2025 lease sale yet.
00:17:31If it can be done in Nevada, it certainly can be done here.
00:17:33The demand for parcels of land to potentially develop geothermal energy
00:17:39far exceeds the supply currently being offered by the BLM,
00:17:42and that's a change we would really like to see.
00:17:44Secondly, we would like the BLM to consider doing broad-scale programmatic planning
00:17:51for geothermal development in the West.
00:17:54They did this type of programmatic planning in 2008,
00:17:57and they looked at basically just where geothermal development can happen
00:18:03and where it could happen if all other criteria are met.
00:18:06But an update to this 2008 plan could use the best available scientific data.
00:18:13It could use the best research to figure out where geothermal energy really is feasible
00:18:17and where it should happen, where it should be prioritized potentially over other land uses.
00:18:23Just last year, the Biden administration did a similar planning effort for solar power,
00:18:28and if it can be done for solar, it certainly should be done for geothermal energy,
00:18:31particularly since geothermal energy has far fewer impacts on the landscape,
00:18:36and unlike solar, it's a reliable, baseload, dispatchable source of energy.
00:18:42Third, we will need to see a lot of progress with permitting of transmission.
00:18:48Transmission is uniquely challenging for geothermal energy
00:18:51because unlike oil or coal, you cannot transport the source of the fuel to your generation site.
00:18:57We need transmission lines to go to the source of the energy itself.
00:19:02And right now, we're permitting from the BLM and from other agencies to get transmission done.
00:19:07It simply takes far too long.
00:19:09We're seeing the initial construction of a long transmission line from renewable energy sites
00:19:14in Wyoming down to southern Nevada.
00:19:16That's the TransWest Express line.
00:19:18So far, it's taken 16 years to permit,
00:19:21and construction still won't be done for another five years.
00:19:24If we see delays like that with the transmission,
00:19:27we'll never see the full build out of Utah's geothermal potential.
00:19:31And lastly, as we've mentioned before, we need to see progress with NEPA permitting.
00:19:35We need the timeline shortened for geothermal itself.
00:19:38As Representative Malloy mentioned in their opening remarks,
00:19:41there were carve-outs for oil and gas development in the Energy Act of 2005
00:19:46that were not extended to geothermal development.
00:19:49And we are so optimistic about the bills that would extend those type of categorical exclusions
00:19:56to geothermal development.
00:19:58In conclusion, thank you again for coming today.
00:20:00We're so grateful for the provisions in the Reconciliation Package
00:20:04and Representative Fuller's Clean Act and the GEO Act
00:20:07and other acts of Congress that will help us make so much progress
00:20:11with developing our geothermal resources.
00:20:14Thank you very much for your testimony.
00:20:17Our next witness is Dr. Joseph Moore,
00:20:20and he is a research professor at the University of Utah's Energy and Geoscience Institute,
00:20:24and he is stationed in Salt Lake City, Utah.
00:20:27Dr. Moore, you are now recognized for five minutes.
00:20:31Good afternoon, Chairman Stauber and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
00:20:35My name is Joseph Moore, and I am a research professor at the University of Utah
00:20:40and a principal investigator of the Utah Frontier Observatory for Research in Geothermal Energy, or FORGE.
00:20:49I am honored to appear before you today to discuss the Utah FORGE Project,
00:20:54innovative geothermal energy research project funded by the Department of Energy.
00:20:59I am providing testimony today as an individual and not on behalf of the University of Utah.
00:21:05In the 1970s, attempts to create geothermal reservoirs where none exist naturally
00:21:11were initiated by the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
00:21:15Numerous experiments followed worldwide,
00:21:18but none were capable of producing more than a few megawatts electric.
00:21:23In 2018, the DOE awarded the University of Utah a grant
00:21:27to build and operate a field-scale underground laboratory
00:21:31where tools and techniques for the creation of enhanced geothermal systems could be tested.
00:21:37In addition to operating the field laboratory,
00:21:41Utah FORGE manages 28 external R&D contracts
00:21:45with private companies, national laboratories, and universities.
00:21:50Approximately $100 million of the nearly $293 million received from the DOE
00:21:56has been used to fund these R&D projects.
00:22:00Several have led to new tools.
00:22:02Utah FORGE is the only field-scale laboratory in the world
00:22:06dedicated to EGS research.
00:22:09In the remaining time, I would like to highlight three of the key results that have been achieved.
00:22:14Reducing well costs was an early priority.
00:22:17This ultimately comes down to minimizing the number of times
00:22:23that the drill string must be removed from the drill hole and the bits replaced.
00:22:28Working with private industry, new bit designs were developed
00:22:32that increased the rate of penetration by 50%,
00:22:36leading to significant reductions in drilling costs.
00:22:40Second, induced seismicity is a natural consequence of reservoir creation,
00:22:45and even small-magnitude events can lead to public concern,
00:22:50property damage, and project shutdowns.
00:22:53Our efforts are focusing on developing new monitoring tools and technologies.
00:22:59Information on seismic activity can be monitored by anyone in real time
00:23:04through our seismic data webpage.
00:23:07Computers placed in the local libraries allow easy access to this webpage.
00:23:12The successful stimulation of slanted and encased wells
00:23:18proved to be an important step in reservoir creation.
00:23:22In recent tests, 90% of the water injected was recovered
00:23:27at a temperature of 380 degrees Fahrenheit.
00:23:31The results of the test demonstrate low water loss
00:23:35and high temperatures are achievable.
00:23:37Prior to Utah Forge, the growth of the geothermal industry
00:23:42over the last two decades was slow.
00:23:46Many new companies are now investing in EGS
00:23:49as a result of the technological advances demonstrated at Utah Forge.
00:23:55Firvo located its project immediately adjacent to Utah Forge,
00:23:59and several other companies have leased land in the vicinity.
00:24:03The data generated at Utah Forge can be downloaded
00:24:07from the geothermal data repository free of charge.
00:24:13Utah Forge is a unique publicly owned and operated laboratory.
00:24:17It is an essential test site for EGS technology advancement
00:24:23and a stepping stone to hotter environments,
00:24:27including super hot resources.
00:24:28Our current four-year contract, which began in October 24,
00:24:33will end in 28.
00:24:35There is still significant work to be done.
00:24:38Unless DOE provides an additional funding,
00:24:41we may have to plug and abandon the wells
00:24:43and bring the surface back to grade.
00:24:46We urge the committee members to continue their support
00:24:49of the Utah Forge project and EGS development in the United States.
00:24:54Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the Utah Forge project.
00:25:00I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
00:25:03Thank you, Dr. Moore.
00:25:04Our final witness is Mr. Paul Thompson,
00:25:06and he is the Vice President of Business Development
00:25:09at Ormat Technologies Incorporated,
00:25:12and he is stationed in Reno, Nevada.
00:25:14Mr. Thompson, you are now recognized for five minutes.
00:25:17Thank you very much, Chairman Stauber,
00:25:20Representative Molloy, and Representative Begich,
00:25:23and all the members of the subcommittee.
00:25:25I can't really contain how excited I am to be here.
00:25:28I first testified in front of Congress on geothermal 17 years ago.
00:25:32I think Tim and I did this about seven years ago.
00:25:35And today, all the things that we were really pushing for then
00:25:38are coming to fruition.
00:25:41By way of introduction, my name is Paul Thompson.
00:25:43I am the Vice President of Business Development
00:25:45for Ormat Technologies.
00:25:46We are a global leader in geothermal power
00:25:48and recovered energy development,
00:25:50and we operate 22 power plants on federal lands
00:25:54in the western United States.
00:25:56We have two projects right here in Utah,
00:25:58one called Cove Fort and the other called Blundell.
00:26:04The five items that we really have been pushing on forever
00:26:07are setting timelines for permits, royalty fixes,
00:26:11the ability to do concurrent permitting,
00:26:14annual lease sales,
00:26:14and ESA reforms.
00:26:17And I'm happy to say we're making incredible progress
00:26:19on all of those.
00:26:21Ormat supports the geothermal permitting reforms
00:26:23initiated by this committee,
00:26:25including HR 301,
00:26:27thanks to Representative Molloy.
00:26:29These reforms aim to streamline the permitting process,
00:26:32allowing for quicker deployment of geothermal energy
00:26:34on federal lands.
00:26:35The GEO Act, for instance, mandates a 60-day deadline
00:26:39for the Department of Interior
00:26:40to process geothermal drilling permits.
00:26:43We can tell you lots of stories
00:26:45about getting our NEPA approval
00:26:46and then waiting for geothermal drilling permits
00:26:49for not one year, not two years, but even longer.
00:26:53So this legislation is just critical to that.
00:26:55The GEO Act is also critical
00:26:57at setting deadlines for processing these permits,
00:27:00and the legislation has already led
00:27:02to the issuance of long-delayed permits.
00:27:05We have a project called Baltasar, for example,
00:27:08that received its NEPA approval
00:27:10three and a half years ago,
00:27:12and we couldn't get those geothermal drilling permits.
00:27:15With this committee's work
00:27:16and the new administration,
00:27:17those permits were issued
00:27:18thanks to the diligent work
00:27:20of Director John Raby
00:27:21and Craig Wisher
00:27:22from the Department of Interior.
00:27:23Let's move on to royalties on leases
00:27:27for multiple plants.
00:27:29In the 2005 Energy Policy Act,
00:27:31there was a royalty structure
00:27:32that said geothermal power plants
00:27:34should pay one royalty rate
00:27:36for the first 10 years,
00:27:38and once the plant is paid off,
00:27:39that royalty rate should increase.
00:27:42We are the first company
00:27:43to take a project past year 10,
00:27:46and kind of an unexpected consequence
00:27:48was that nearby facilities
00:27:50using the same geothermal resource
00:27:52were also moved into that higher royalty rate.
00:27:55So the committee looking at fixing that
00:27:57will drive much more geothermal development
00:27:59and wiser development
00:28:01because you won't be looking to try
00:28:03to disturb more public lands
00:28:05by separating power plants
00:28:07just to receive better tax benefits moving forward.
00:28:11Concurrent consideration of multiple permits.
00:28:14You've heard the stories today.
00:28:16Geothermal has to apply for an exploration permit
00:28:18that used to take two to four years,
00:28:20and then if we found the geothermal resource,
00:28:22we had to permit a utilization plan
00:28:25or a power plant
00:28:25that took another two to four years.
00:28:28We have many projects that exceed 10 years
00:28:30in kind of the permitting regime.
00:28:32So this committee's work
00:28:33and the administration's now
00:28:34to allow for concurrent permitting is huge,
00:28:39and being able to expedite permits moving forward
00:28:42can drastically reduce the time
00:28:44of four to eight years of permitting development
00:28:46down to something to meet our energy needs
00:28:49as Representative Molloy discussed.
00:28:51We, last week, submitted 10 geothermal projects
00:28:54representing hundreds of megawatts
00:28:56for the accelerated permitting process under NEPA.
00:29:00We heard about annual lease sales.
00:29:02We've been pushing on that.
00:29:04We heard Mr. Garfield talk about it.
00:29:06We couldn't be happier to see more and more states
00:29:08putting geothermal up for leasing.
00:29:10It's very hard to develop it
00:29:12if you can't get access to those federal lands,
00:29:14and I'm happy to report that states like Nevada,
00:29:17Utah, Idaho, and Oregon
00:29:18are all planning to conduct lease sales this year.
00:29:22BLM, for example,
00:29:23is going to have possibly two lease sales this year,
00:29:26so we're making huge progress in that area.
00:29:29Lastly, I want to talk about
00:29:31the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
00:29:34The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
00:29:35has proposed many ESA listings
00:29:38that could impact geothermal development.
00:29:40They're looking at species like the Dixie Valley toad,
00:29:42the Bleached Sand Hill Skipper,
00:29:44the Fish Lake Tooey Chubb,
00:29:46the Greater Sage Grouse,
00:29:47the Monarch Butterfly,
00:29:48the list goes on and on.
00:29:50And Fish and Wildlife Service
00:29:52really fought with the Department of Interior
00:29:55for the last four years
00:29:56and really stopped these projects from moving forward.
00:29:59We have examples of BLM
00:30:01not wanting to issue those permits
00:30:02because they were under threat
00:30:04of being sued by the Fish and Wildlife Service.
00:30:06That's not really how the process is meant to work.
00:30:09We shouldn't have regulatory capture
00:30:10due to the threat of litigation.
00:30:13So we urge the committee
00:30:14to address the interagency conflicts
00:30:16that hinder geothermal energy exploration.
00:30:19ORMAT is dedicated
00:30:20to advancing geothermal energy on federal lands.
00:30:23It supports this committee's,
00:30:25the president's,
00:30:25and the secretary's energy production goals
00:30:27for fostering job creation
00:30:29and economic development.
00:30:31We appreciate your support
00:30:32and look forward to collaborating
00:30:33to unlock geothermal energy's full potential
00:30:36in the United States.
00:30:38Thank you very much.
00:30:40The chair will now recognize members
00:30:42for five minutes of questions.
00:30:44I now recognize myself for five minutes.
00:30:46In 2019, under President Trump's leadership,
00:30:49the Department of Energy released its report,
00:30:53Geo Vision, Harnessing the Heat Beneath Our Feet,
00:30:55which estimated geothermal could provide
00:30:57over 120 gigawatts of electricity by 2050.
00:31:01For context, the entire domestic grid
00:31:03currently produces 1,250 gigawatts today
00:31:06for the EIA.
00:31:08The Department of Energy estimate
00:31:09predated many technological advances
00:31:13that FERVAL has made
00:31:14in just the past five years
00:31:16that has vastly grown geothermal's potential scale
00:31:18and has made it viable
00:31:20across multiple geographies.
00:31:23Mr. Latimer,
00:31:24could you please describe
00:31:25how making it easier
00:31:27to permit geothermal energy development
00:31:29on federal lands
00:31:29would increase energy dominance?
00:31:35Thank you so much for the question, Chairman.
00:31:37And indeed, it's been an exciting time
00:31:39in geothermal.
00:31:40I'd say not just FERVAL,
00:31:40but also the pioneering work
00:31:42you heard from Dr. Moore
00:31:42at the Utah Forge site
00:31:44means that almost as soon
00:31:45as that document was printed,
00:31:47and it was a great effort
00:31:48to coordinate all of the information
00:31:50about geothermal innovation,
00:31:52it was out of date.
00:31:53And we have pushed forward
00:31:54numerous technology innovations
00:31:57that make it easier
00:31:58for us to find geothermal.
00:32:01Between our pilot project and today,
00:32:03as I mentioned to you earlier today,
00:32:04we've reduced drilling costs by over 70%.
00:32:07And that takes geothermal
00:32:08from a niche resource
00:32:09that can't really have much impact
00:32:10on the grid
00:32:11to one that we can do
00:32:14in many, many more locations
00:32:15in a much greater scale.
00:32:16And so we're quite excited.
00:32:18It's difficult for the data
00:32:20to keep up with how fast
00:32:21the technology innovations are happening.
00:32:23So I think the potential
00:32:24is even greater for that.
00:32:25But of course, as you mentioned,
00:32:26it also requires better permitting
00:32:28because what we see
00:32:29is an urgent need
00:32:30for there to be reliable,
00:32:31clean, firm power on the grid.
00:32:33And if you hear about the timelines,
00:32:35for example,
00:32:35that Mr. Thompson talked about earlier,
00:32:38if we want to have cleaner energy
00:32:39on the grid
00:32:40and it'd be based around
00:32:41the clock, firm power,
00:32:42but it takes us 10 years
00:32:43to start construction,
00:32:44we're not going to be in a position
00:32:45where we can have the positive impact
00:32:47that we want to.
00:32:48So oftentimes our projects,
00:32:51we have the technology ready to go.
00:32:52We have the supply chain ready to go.
00:32:54And we are in a position
00:32:55where we're waiting
00:32:56for these multiple redundant
00:32:57permitting applications.
00:32:59I think there's a way
00:33:00to do these projects
00:33:00with a very high quality
00:33:02without sacrificing
00:33:03any of the environmental attributes,
00:33:05but just doing some of the reforms
00:33:06that are in the bills
00:33:07that you have proposed
00:33:08allow us to really just,
00:33:10you know,
00:33:10remove some of the redundancy
00:33:11in the system
00:33:12that lets us grow much faster.
00:33:13And I think the real question is,
00:33:15is that a goal we want to set
00:33:16for mid-century or beyond?
00:33:17Or do we want to have this ramp up
00:33:20and reliable firm power
00:33:22from geothermal happen
00:33:23much more quickly?
00:33:24And if that's the case,
00:33:25if we want to have more impact sooner,
00:33:27there has to be a way
00:33:28to streamline the permitting reforms
00:33:30with reforms
00:33:30like what this committee
00:33:31has talked about.
00:33:32So would you say,
00:33:32I think I know the answer
00:33:33that FERVAL
00:33:34or other developers
00:33:36are sitting on sidelines
00:33:37in terms of developing
00:33:38additional projects
00:33:39because of these permitting challenges?
00:33:41I think that's right.
00:33:42And I think one of the things
00:33:43that to say is,
00:33:46you know,
00:33:47the numbers we've discussed today
00:33:48where sometimes it can take over
00:33:49a decade to permit these projects,
00:33:51those are only the projects
00:33:52that actually move forward
00:33:54to get far enough
00:33:55to even enter the permitting queue.
00:33:57And I can tell you,
00:33:59we've had numerous projects
00:34:00where we've had community support,
00:34:01we've had high quality geology,
00:34:03we've looked at
00:34:04and had some sort
00:34:05of transmission solution,
00:34:06but we haven't even prioritized
00:34:07investing in the project yet
00:34:09because we didn't see
00:34:09a viable pathway
00:34:10to getting permits.
00:34:12And much like Paul talked about
00:34:13with the ORMAT experience,
00:34:15we have numerous examples
00:34:16where our permits have sat for years
00:34:17without even getting an answer
00:34:18or a review.
00:34:19And I think really having
00:34:21a renaissance in energy
00:34:22the way we need to,
00:34:24we have to address
00:34:25those fundamental issues.
00:34:26It's simply not acceptable
00:34:28for permits to sit for years
00:34:30and years on end
00:34:31when we have the technology
00:34:33and expertise
00:34:34and the investment
00:34:34wanting to do so.
00:34:36You know,
00:34:36geothermal faces,
00:34:38power faces a unique challenge
00:34:39in the fact that reviews
00:34:41under NEPA
00:34:41have to be completed
00:34:42in sequence
00:34:43or one after the other
00:34:45rather than simultaneously.
00:34:47This includes land use planning,
00:34:49pre-leasing exploration,
00:34:50drilling,
00:34:51wellfield development,
00:34:53power plant construction
00:34:54and transmission,
00:34:55all of which have
00:34:56to be done separately.
00:34:57This means drastically
00:34:58increased project timelines
00:35:00and costs,
00:35:01all of which hit
00:35:02American consumers,
00:35:03both in terms of
00:35:04the cost of energy
00:35:05and the reliability
00:35:06and the reliability
00:35:06of our electric grid.
00:35:08This completely
00:35:09is the opposite
00:35:10of what we should be doing.
00:35:12Getting more reliable,
00:35:13abundant,
00:35:14and affordable
00:35:15online energy
00:35:16that is demanded
00:35:19continues to skyrocket.
00:35:20The energy demand
00:35:22is only going to go up
00:35:23as we move into
00:35:25the AI race,
00:35:26et cetera.
00:35:27It is energy
00:35:28that is going to bring
00:35:29that dominance
00:35:30to this great nation.
00:35:31So, Mr. Thompson,
00:35:33you know what?
00:35:34I'm going to ask,
00:35:35I'm going to wait
00:35:36for probably my second round
00:35:38to ask you that question.
00:35:39So, now I will go
00:35:41to Representative Malloy
00:35:43for five minutes
00:35:44of her questioning.
00:35:49I'm going to start
00:35:49with a question
00:35:50to Mr. Latimer
00:35:51and Mr. Moore both
00:35:52because you both touched
00:35:53on this end today
00:35:54when we were on
00:35:56the field trip part of this.
00:35:58We talked about it
00:35:59a little bit,
00:35:59but will both of you
00:36:00speak to the importance
00:36:00of having government research
00:36:03and combining it
00:36:04with private investment
00:36:05like we're doing
00:36:06in Beaver County
00:36:07and why that's so important
00:36:09to developing resources.
00:36:14Your mic.
00:36:17Absolutely.
00:36:18Thank you for the question.
00:36:20When we started Forge,
00:36:24projects had been done
00:36:26around the world
00:36:27and none had been able
00:36:29to produce more than
00:36:31two or three
00:36:32or four megawatts
00:36:33of electric.
00:36:35And this had been recognized.
00:36:37The key problem,
00:36:38we didn't have the tools,
00:36:39we didn't know
00:36:40how to do the exploration,
00:36:41we didn't know
00:36:42how to do the drilling.
00:36:44And as Tim said,
00:36:46a lot of this came
00:36:47from the oil
00:36:47and gas industry.
00:36:49In fact,
00:36:49the objective of Forge
00:36:52was to take oil
00:36:53and gas tools
00:36:54and upgrade them,
00:36:56make them more useful.
00:36:58And we learned very quickly,
00:37:00many of the tools
00:37:01didn't work
00:37:01at the temperatures
00:37:03of Forge.
00:37:03We're up at 500 degrees Fahrenheit,
00:37:06so we're quite hot.
00:37:08There was no infrastructure
00:37:09to build these tools.
00:37:11There was no reason
00:37:13the oil and gas industry,
00:37:14for example,
00:37:15would build tools suitable
00:37:16for high temperatures.
00:37:17We didn't have
00:37:19the drilling techniques,
00:37:21for example,
00:37:22the bits
00:37:22that we needed.
00:37:24And Forge
00:37:25has now drilled
00:37:26seven or eight wells,
00:37:27deepest is 9,500 feet.
00:37:30It is the only
00:37:32commercial scale
00:37:34R&D facility
00:37:36in the world.
00:37:37And that's really critical
00:37:39because we are
00:37:40testing new tools.
00:37:41I mentioned
00:37:42we have 28 R&D projects
00:37:44that Forge funds.
00:37:46I don't think
00:37:48we would have seen
00:37:49the increase
00:37:50in enthusiasm
00:37:53really from
00:37:55the geothermal industry
00:37:56and I must admit
00:37:57from the oil and gas industry
00:37:58as well
00:38:00to get back
00:38:01into geothermal.
00:38:03And I think
00:38:03without Ferbo's work
00:38:05that that wouldn't
00:38:06have happened.
00:38:07But fortunately,
00:38:08they're using
00:38:09some of the tools
00:38:10that are being developed.
00:38:12I would echo that
00:38:14and say that
00:38:14just to make this concrete,
00:38:16the value of some
00:38:17of these public-private partnerships
00:38:18is oftentimes
00:38:19it's difficult
00:38:19to attract
00:38:20private sector investment
00:38:22to do truly innovative things.
00:38:23So when Ferbo started
00:38:24in 2018,
00:38:25we raised the seed round
00:38:26to get started.
00:38:27We raised about $500,000
00:38:28and we had to scrap
00:38:30and look over every stone
00:38:32to find that funding.
00:38:34And more often than not,
00:38:35the answer we got
00:38:36was, well,
00:38:37how do you know
00:38:37you have something there
00:38:38when you drill geothermal?
00:38:39This is uncertain.
00:38:40You can't see
00:38:40what's down there.
00:38:42And we did a lot
00:38:43of feasibility testing
00:38:44with that funding.
00:38:44But we realized
00:38:45to do the next step
00:38:46we needed to raise $10 million,
00:38:47not $500,000.
00:38:48And we faced
00:38:49that same skepticism
00:38:50from the investors.
00:38:51What if the resource
00:38:52isn't there?
00:38:53What if you can't drill it?
00:38:54Well, around that time
00:38:55we were raising
00:38:55that next round of funding
00:38:56so we could progress
00:38:57our technology forward,
00:38:58the Utah Forge team
00:38:59published their results
00:39:00on drilling the wells there.
00:39:02And we were able
00:39:02to point and say,
00:39:03look, here's some
00:39:04of the drilling techniques
00:39:04that we're proposing to use
00:39:06that have been de-risked.
00:39:07And on top of that,
00:39:08we actually are going
00:39:09to site our project
00:39:10right next door to theirs
00:39:11so we can leverage
00:39:12the available data
00:39:14that Joe talked about earlier
00:39:15on the geothermal data repository.
00:39:17And I don't think
00:39:18we would have been successful
00:39:19in raising the private sector
00:39:20funds needed
00:39:21for a new venture
00:39:23had we not had this ability
00:39:25to leverage resources
00:39:26done by the national labs
00:39:28and the universities
00:39:28and supported
00:39:29the Department of Energy.
00:39:31And I think that's where
00:39:32these partnerships
00:39:32are critical.
00:39:33In times where you could have
00:39:34something with phenomenal impact
00:39:36on society,
00:39:37but where the private sector
00:39:38is insufficient to fund it.
00:39:39And you can partner together
00:39:40in a research collaboration
00:39:42that really moves the needle.
00:39:43And what we're doing
00:39:44in Beaver County
00:39:45through the partnership
00:39:46with Utah Forge
00:39:47is I think a tremendous example
00:39:48of this working well.
00:39:51Mr. Thompson,
00:39:52I have a short time left,
00:39:53but I'm going to give you
00:39:54a really short question.
00:39:55You said that you testified
00:39:57about this 17 years ago.
00:39:58And I assume that you're excited
00:40:01to see some of these things
00:40:02starting to move,
00:40:02but you also have
00:40:03a really bipartisan background.
00:40:05And I think when we talk
00:40:06about permitting reform,
00:40:07sometimes politics get involved
00:40:09and there's some skepticism
00:40:10that if we streamline permitting,
00:40:12we can do things
00:40:13in a clean, safe,
00:40:15environmental way.
00:40:16How confident are you
00:40:17that we can do
00:40:18geothermal permitting faster
00:40:20and protect the environment?
00:40:22I'm very confident.
00:40:24I think we have shown
00:40:25we can do the baseline studies.
00:40:27We can comply with NEPA.
00:40:29You know,
00:40:29one of the amazing things
00:40:30about geothermal
00:40:30is it has a footprint disturbance
00:40:3222 times smaller
00:40:34than solar with integrated storage.
00:40:36These typical power plants,
00:40:38as you probably saw today,
00:40:39take up a 15 to 20 acre pad.
00:40:42The geothermal reservoir
00:40:43is preserved into perpetuity
00:40:46if managed correctly.
00:40:49In the, you know,
00:40:50ORMAT has been in operation
00:40:51since 1985.
00:40:52We've never had a take permit
00:40:54associated with one
00:40:55of our projects.
00:40:56We can move the geothermal
00:40:57power plants.
00:40:58We can move the wells
00:41:00and so forth
00:41:00to make them as benign
00:41:03as possible
00:41:03to the surrounding environment.
00:41:04Couple that with no emissions
00:41:07and baseload power,
00:41:09the environmental footprint
00:41:10of these facilities
00:41:10is just astonishing.
00:41:12And the fact that it takes
00:41:13almost as long
00:41:14to permit, you know,
00:41:14a mining site
00:41:15is an example
00:41:17of just waiting too long.
00:41:19And what your bill does
00:41:21is say once NEPA is complete,
00:41:22it doesn't short shrift
00:41:24the NEPA process at all.
00:41:26It just says once it's done,
00:41:28the administrators
00:41:28in these offices
00:41:29need to issue
00:41:30these permits timely.
00:41:32My time's expired.
00:41:33I'll have follow-up questions
00:41:34during the next round.
00:41:37Before I go to
00:41:38Representative Begich
00:41:39from the great state of Alaska,
00:41:40because he brought up mining,
00:41:42I will tell you,
00:41:43it takes 29 years
00:41:45on average
00:41:46to open up a mine
00:41:48in the United States of America.
00:41:4929 years.
00:41:51And now we're going to go
00:41:52to Representative Begich
00:41:53for five minutes
00:41:54from the great state of Alaska.
00:41:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:41:57My first question
00:41:58is to Mr. Latimer.
00:42:00Mr. Latimer,
00:42:01we know that
00:42:02geothermal is kind of lumped in
00:42:05to this category
00:42:06that we call
00:42:07renewable resources.
00:42:10We've got solar,
00:42:11we've got wind,
00:42:12we've got hydro,
00:42:12we've got geothermal.
00:42:14Now, with solar and wind,
00:42:15what we've seen
00:42:16in a couple of significant examples,
00:42:18we saw this in Texas,
00:42:19we saw this recently in Spain,
00:42:21we've seen it in Germany,
00:42:22they may be renewable resources,
00:42:24but they're not necessarily
00:42:25reliable resources.
00:42:28Hydro and geothermal,
00:42:29geothermal, of course,
00:42:29are sustained resources.
00:42:32They're baseload,
00:42:33they're reliable.
00:42:34Can you speak to the importance
00:42:35of reliable baseload power
00:42:37versus what some might call
00:42:39fair weather power?
00:42:42Yeah, and I think
00:42:43I very much appreciated
00:42:45the chairman's opening comments
00:42:46about there being
00:42:47such an acute need
00:42:48for energy
00:42:49that we really need
00:42:50to be looking
00:42:50at all these resources.
00:42:51And I think
00:42:51there's valuable parts
00:42:53of solar and wind
00:42:53that can add to the grid,
00:42:54but it's also important
00:42:55to distinguish
00:42:56where geothermal offers value
00:42:57where solar and wind may not.
00:42:59And it is something that,
00:43:01you know,
00:43:01even if the weather changes,
00:43:02the earth is always hot,
00:43:03you know,
00:43:04and it has been
00:43:04for four billion years
00:43:06and it will continue
00:43:07to be for a few billion more.
00:43:09And so as a result,
00:43:09we have a load profile
00:43:11that's far more reliable.
00:43:12And actually,
00:43:13what we're seeing
00:43:14in our offtake contracts
00:43:16with our customers
00:43:17is reliability
00:43:18is sort of the key focus
00:43:20of offtakers today.
00:43:22And so actually,
00:43:23you know,
00:43:23we struggled a little bit.
00:43:25We were in a very different
00:43:25power market
00:43:26when we started the business
00:43:27over seven years ago
00:43:29to really get people
00:43:30to really hold on
00:43:32to the value
00:43:33of what this reliability means.
00:43:35And there were two big events
00:43:36that happened
00:43:37in the United States
00:43:37that really made a difference.
00:43:38One was in August of 2020,
00:43:40the state of California
00:43:41experienced rolling blackouts
00:43:43for the first time
00:43:44in over two decades
00:43:45as a result
00:43:45of a very hot summer evening
00:43:47that really stressed
00:43:48the electric grid.
00:43:49And then in Texas,
00:43:50my home state,
00:43:51many of us,
00:43:52myself included,
00:43:53lost power
00:43:53for over five days
00:43:55in Winter Storm Uri
00:43:56just a few months later.
00:43:57And all of a sudden,
00:43:58you saw reliability
00:43:59go from an afterthought
00:44:00in planning processes
00:44:01for power
00:44:02to first and foremost.
00:44:03And we saw a number
00:44:04of state regulatory changes
00:44:06that ascribe value
00:44:07to something
00:44:07that provides power
00:44:09around the clock.
00:44:09And geothermal is unique
00:44:10in its ability to do that.
00:44:12It works in warm weather.
00:44:13It works in cold weather.
00:44:14You know,
00:44:14everybody knows Iceland
00:44:15is a geothermal country.
00:44:16So if you want to know
00:44:16if it works in cold weather,
00:44:17there is your answer.
00:44:18And it also provides
00:44:19that rotating inertia
00:44:20that's very valuable
00:44:21to the grid.
00:44:22And what we're seeing
00:44:22is more and more
00:44:23our customers
00:44:24are looking at
00:44:25how do they meet their goals
00:44:26when it comes to reliability,
00:44:28cost,
00:44:29and sustainability
00:44:30and emissions.
00:44:31And more and more
00:44:32they're coming to the answer
00:44:33that geothermal plays
00:44:34a huge role in that mix
00:44:35because we just offer
00:44:36different value
00:44:37that other energy
00:44:38resources haven't.
00:44:39And that's been
00:44:40a huge part
00:44:40of explaining
00:44:41this renaissance
00:44:42in geothermal.
00:44:42And it's just
00:44:44a follow-up question.
00:44:46You know,
00:44:46we often see
00:44:47that emerging
00:44:49power technologies
00:44:50require heavy subsidies
00:44:51in order to exist
00:44:53and be somewhat
00:44:55competitive
00:44:55to traditional energy.
00:44:57Long-term,
00:44:58thinking long-term,
00:44:59do you think
00:45:00that geothermal
00:45:01is going to be
00:45:02cost-competitive
00:45:03to other forms
00:45:04of more traditional energy
00:45:05and kind of maybe
00:45:06some commentary
00:45:07around that?
00:45:08Absolutely.
00:45:09You know,
00:45:09the technology innovations
00:45:10we're talking about
00:45:11that we've pioneered
00:45:13and that the University
00:45:14of Utah has pioneered
00:45:15and that the DOE
00:45:15has supported
00:45:16are very new.
00:45:17And so there's still
00:45:17a lot of learning
00:45:18that's happening.
00:45:19And so even between
00:45:20our first and second project
00:45:21here in Beaver County,
00:45:23Utah,
00:45:24we're reducing our cost
00:45:25by over 30%.
00:45:26And so we're at a very steep
00:45:27part of the learning curve
00:45:28actually where
00:45:29the support from the DOE
00:45:30and the investment tax credits
00:45:32that are on the books
00:45:33make a big difference
00:45:34for getting our industry
00:45:35off the ground.
00:45:36But our mission at Fervo,
00:45:37and I don't think
00:45:38we would be doing this
00:45:39if we didn't think
00:45:40this was the case,
00:45:41is that we're on
00:45:42a cost trajectory
00:45:42where within a few years
00:45:44it's going to be
00:45:44the cheapest form
00:45:45of power, period.
00:45:46And that's with
00:45:47or without subsidies,
00:45:48that's whether or not
00:45:49you factor it clean,
00:45:50dirty, reliable,
00:45:51you name it,
00:45:52we just want to have
00:45:52the cheapest form
00:45:53of electricity, period.
00:45:54And the fact that it is clean
00:45:55and it does have
00:45:56these reliability attributes
00:45:57are very, very positive.
00:45:59But when you look
00:45:59at the technology cost structure
00:46:01that the trajectory
00:46:02we are on,
00:46:03we have every confidence
00:46:04that this is going
00:46:05to be the lowest cost
00:46:06way to get electricity
00:46:07to people within the next
00:46:08five to 10 years.
00:46:09and that's what
00:46:10we're after.
00:46:11That's very exciting.
00:46:12I appreciate that commentary
00:46:14and I will now yield
00:46:15to the chair.
00:46:16I'll have follow-up questions
00:46:17in round two.
00:46:19Thank you very much.
00:46:20So at the chair's request,
00:46:22I am going to go
00:46:24a second round of questioning.
00:46:26I think that we traveled here,
00:46:28we have the audience members,
00:46:29there's still some more
00:46:30questions than I have
00:46:31and I'm going to recognize
00:46:33myself for the next
00:46:34second round of questionings.
00:46:35Mr. Thompson,
00:46:37if Congress were to change
00:46:39these requirements
00:46:41and allow different steps
00:46:43of the NEPA process
00:46:44to run concurrently,
00:46:45what kind of impact
00:46:47would that have
00:46:47on our ability
00:46:48to get geothermal projects
00:46:49built and brought online
00:46:51in a timely fashion?
00:46:55Chairman,
00:46:56thank you for the question.
00:46:58I think we touched
00:46:59on it a little bit
00:46:59with the DOE
00:47:00GeoVision report
00:47:01that if we can reduce
00:47:02the permitting timelines,
00:47:03we can unleash gigawatts
00:47:06of generation
00:47:06for geothermal deployment.
00:47:08I'll just elaborate
00:47:09a little bit.
00:47:10You know, today we've talked
00:47:11about technologies
00:47:12that capture low temperature heat.
00:47:13There is a huge amount
00:47:15of resource out there
00:47:16for geothermal development
00:47:17today with, you know,
00:47:19older technologies,
00:47:20traditional technologies,
00:47:21new technologies,
00:47:22advancing technologies
00:47:23to be developed
00:47:24and the single biggest hurdle
00:47:26has been permitting
00:47:27and I've been harping
00:47:29on that for over a decade
00:47:30and again, I think,
00:47:32you know, to touch
00:47:33on the point that
00:47:33we do comprehensive
00:47:35baseline studies.
00:47:36We do comprehensive
00:47:38numerical water modeling
00:47:40and what sets geothermal apart,
00:47:43which I think is important
00:47:44to say is we have to have
00:47:46a symbiotic relationship
00:47:47with the resource.
00:47:49We don't go in
00:47:50and try to extract something
00:47:51and leave.
00:47:52We have to,
00:47:53if we want to be successful,
00:47:54operate a power plant
00:47:56for about two decades,
00:47:5720 years.
00:47:58The amortization rate
00:47:59is about 10 years.
00:48:00So we become incredibly
00:48:02good stewards of the land
00:48:04and the reservoir
00:48:05because we have
00:48:06the same goal in mind
00:48:07to maximize the amount
00:48:08of power we can produce,
00:48:10the revenue that we generate,
00:48:11we have to protect
00:48:12those precious
00:48:14geothermal reservoirs
00:48:15and we invest
00:48:16an incredible amount
00:48:17of time and money
00:48:18to do just that.
00:48:21Mr. Garfield,
00:48:22how long does it take
00:48:24for the state of Utah
00:48:25to permit a geothermal project
00:48:27on state lands?
00:48:30I've been discussing
00:48:31this question
00:48:31with our state land agency.
00:48:33I was asking that,
00:48:34how long does it take?
00:48:35And they said
00:48:35they really can't
00:48:36put a number on it
00:48:37because geothermal energy
00:48:38is so new,
00:48:39especially on state lands.
00:48:41But they did say that,
00:48:43and the projects,
00:48:44we do have a couple
00:48:45of projects,
00:48:45but they've taken,
00:48:47they've been unique
00:48:49circumstances each time,
00:48:50but they've said
00:48:50they could get things
00:48:51permitted very quickly,
00:48:52much quicker than the BLM,
00:48:54fundamentally,
00:48:54because we don't have
00:48:55a NEPA-type statute
00:48:57in Utah.
00:48:59They're cognizant
00:49:00of what they're doing.
00:49:01When they get a proposal
00:49:02for a development,
00:49:03they make sure
00:49:04that the land
00:49:05will not be degraded,
00:49:06that there's measures
00:49:07for mitigation
00:49:08for reclamation
00:49:08of the land later,
00:49:10but they're not required
00:49:12under statute
00:49:12to do the type
00:49:13of duplicative
00:49:14and onerous analysis
00:49:16that's required
00:49:17under NEPA.
00:49:18And that fundamentally
00:49:18is why both
00:49:20our state land,
00:49:20our state trust lands agency
00:49:22and other state agencies
00:49:22are able to do
00:49:23this type of permitting
00:49:24much quicker
00:49:25than at the federal level.
00:49:27So it's safe to say
00:49:29that Utah understands
00:49:30that the federal government
00:49:32is simply not getting it yet.
00:49:34And that's why
00:49:35these hearings
00:49:35are so important.
00:49:37So Mr. Thompson
00:49:38brought up something
00:49:40that we talked
00:49:40about permitting.
00:49:41We've all talked
00:49:41about permitting here.
00:49:43You know,
00:49:45if we don't accelerate it,
00:49:49we're going to be left behind.
00:49:50I'm going to give you an example.
00:49:51If we don't get
00:49:52a bridge permitted
00:49:53in northern Minnesota
00:49:54and finished
00:49:55by early November,
00:49:57December,
00:49:58if there's a permitting problem,
00:49:59that waits for five months
00:50:01till the road restrictions
00:50:02come off in the spring.
00:50:03And that time is money.
00:50:05And you're looking
00:50:06at geothermal.
00:50:07Time is money.
00:50:08You're looking
00:50:09for that investment
00:50:10to come on board.
00:50:11I can tell you,
00:50:12Mr. Latimer,
00:50:13I was extremely impressed
00:50:15with FURVO today.
00:50:17And I will tell
00:50:18the audience members,
00:50:19as the Chair of Energy
00:50:20and Minerals Resources,
00:50:22your Utah reps
00:50:25are really pushing geothermal,
00:50:28almost not only my committee,
00:50:30but the full committee,
00:50:31pushing geothermal.
00:50:33To come out here
00:50:34and actually see
00:50:35what you're doing,
00:50:36this is that next-gen opportunity.
00:50:40And I commend you
00:50:42for all the work you did.
00:50:44Mr. Moore,
00:50:44you've been doing this
00:50:45for a lot of years
00:50:46and you're studying
00:50:46and you're seeing
00:50:48the work that you put
00:50:49in the technology.
00:50:51And I hope that you know
00:50:54that we appreciate it,
00:50:55the next generation appreciates it.
00:50:56And we certainly appreciate
00:50:58the state of Utah
00:51:01leading that.
00:51:03And just by meeting
00:51:04a few of you earlier today,
00:51:07the enthusiasm,
00:51:08the get-it-done attitude.
00:51:11Mr. Thompson,
00:51:12you brought up
00:51:12something very important.
00:51:14In Minnesota,
00:51:15we mine, right?
00:51:15I'm a pro-mining environmentalist.
00:51:18Nobody gets to own that term
00:51:20because I live there,
00:51:21I work there,
00:51:22I've raised my family there,
00:51:24I'm going to pass away there
00:51:25in my home state of Minnesota
00:51:28where we lead in mining
00:51:30with the exception
00:51:30of the great state of Alaska.
00:51:32So I just want to,
00:51:33as I close my comments,
00:51:35I just want to say
00:51:36thank you very much.
00:51:37It's just an exceptional day
00:51:39at Fervo.
00:51:40And with that being said,
00:51:42Representative Malloy,
00:51:43you're up for your second
00:51:44round of questioning.
00:51:47Mr. Garfield,
00:51:48I want to follow up
00:51:49on the questions
00:51:50that the chairman just asked you.
00:51:52How does the state of Utah's
00:51:53permitting process
00:51:53for geothermal development
00:51:55differ from the state's
00:51:56typical permitting process?
00:51:58Can you speak to that?
00:52:01Differ from other permitting processes
00:52:03for other developments?
00:52:04It is so new.
00:52:08I think there's a lot
00:52:09that's still going on here,
00:52:10but I would be happy
00:52:12to ask that question
00:52:13of our permitting agencies
00:52:15and get back to you
00:52:15with more information.
00:52:16I'll follow up in writing
00:52:17afterwards with that one.
00:52:18Please do.
00:52:18So you can talk to
00:52:19your counterparts in the state.
00:52:22But where does the process
00:52:24break down most often
00:52:25for the state
00:52:27in trying to get
00:52:28energy projects permitted?
00:52:30Can you tell me that?
00:52:31At the state level?
00:52:36That's another question
00:52:37I should probably
00:52:38get back to our permitting agencies.
00:52:39I'll follow up in writing
00:52:39with that one too.
00:52:41I'll get you off the hot seat.
00:52:43Mr. Thompson,
00:52:44I said I was going to
00:52:45follow up with you
00:52:45on your answers.
00:52:47And one of the things
00:52:48I want to follow up with you on
00:52:50because you've been
00:52:50doing this for so long,
00:52:52will you talk about
00:52:53the impact that
00:52:54we all know
00:52:55we need to produce
00:52:56more energy in this country?
00:52:57We know that there's
00:52:59a need for
00:53:00increased energy production.
00:53:02But even looking backward,
00:53:04we've been producing
00:53:05geothermal energy
00:53:06in rural areas.
00:53:07Can you talk about
00:53:08the impact that has
00:53:09on the economies
00:53:10of rural areas
00:53:11when we have
00:53:12sustainable energy
00:53:13being produced?
00:53:15Absolutely.
00:53:16Through the chair
00:53:17to Representative Malloy.
00:53:19You know,
00:53:19once you have
00:53:21a geothermal project
00:53:22up and running,
00:53:23it requires very few
00:53:24employees to operate it.
00:53:26We don't really have
00:53:27a burden on police stations,
00:53:29fire stations, etc.
00:53:31We've had
00:53:31county commissioners
00:53:32refer to our power plants
00:53:33as ATMs
00:53:35in the desert
00:53:35in rural Nevada.
00:53:38But the impact,
00:53:39because when you
00:53:39produce power
00:53:4024 hours a day,
00:53:427 days a week,
00:53:4352 weeks a year,
00:53:44and sell that electricity
00:53:45under a power purchase agreement,
00:53:47you create
00:53:47a good amount of revenue.
00:53:49And in the state of Nevada,
00:53:50for example,
00:53:51a huge portion of that
00:53:52goes back to the local counties.
00:53:54And so in states
00:53:55that have a lot of
00:53:56federally owned land
00:53:57where they're not always
00:53:58getting the payment
00:53:58in lieu of taxes
00:53:59from the federal government,
00:54:01these projects
00:54:02have an astonishing effect.
00:54:04We're probably
00:54:04the largest employer
00:54:06in many rural counties
00:54:08in Nevada,
00:54:09next to mining,
00:54:10which is the biggest employer
00:54:12in northeastern Nevada.
00:54:15So the impact
00:54:17is just huge.
00:54:19And if I can,
00:54:20I'd go back
00:54:20to one of the previous
00:54:21questions about,
00:54:22you know,
00:54:22the impact on the work
00:54:24at Utah
00:54:24and the public-private partnership.
00:54:27What's unique
00:54:27about geothermal
00:54:28is that we can't
00:54:29bottle up the electricity
00:54:30and put it on the USS Duracell
00:54:32and ship it
00:54:33to the highest bidder.
00:54:34It's a U.S. domestic product.
00:54:36The price is controlled
00:54:37by the U.S. market.
00:54:39So whether we're in Nevada
00:54:40or Utah,
00:54:41we can only sell
00:54:42the electricity
00:54:43for what the public utilities
00:54:44commissions will limit.
00:54:46So it's, you know,
00:54:47it's got a cap
00:54:48on its energy,
00:54:49on its price point
00:54:50that we can get for it.
00:54:51We can't gouge rate payers.
00:54:53It also limited us
00:54:54from what we could spend
00:54:56in subsurface research.
00:54:58So the public-private partnership
00:54:59from like the University of Utah
00:55:01and the Department of Energy
00:55:02to go after the subsurface work
00:55:04has just been critically important
00:55:06and brings in world-class researchers
00:55:09to work on these projects.
00:55:11The University of Nevada,
00:55:13the University of Utah.
00:55:14Every time we're working
00:55:15on an advanced EGS project,
00:55:18experts fly in
00:55:18from all over the world
00:55:19to help and work
00:55:20in these communities
00:55:21and it's really astonishing
00:55:22to see the impacts.
00:55:23When you're hiring people
00:55:25to run the plants
00:55:26once they're up and running,
00:55:27how often do you hire
00:55:28local talent?
00:55:30Almost always.
00:55:31You know,
00:55:32coming from a small town,
00:55:34you know,
00:55:35we have very rural
00:55:36power plant locations
00:55:37and the best people
00:55:38to have work there
00:55:39are the local employees.
00:55:42We can teach them
00:55:42to use a voltmeter
00:55:43and work at the power plants.
00:55:45We employ tribal members
00:55:47at our projects
00:55:48because they are the best stewards
00:55:49of the land
00:55:50and know what's going on
00:55:51in that community.
00:55:53Mr. Latimer,
00:55:54just really fast
00:55:55because I'm almost out of time.
00:55:56When we were out
00:55:57on site today,
00:55:58you talked about
00:55:58how the research you're doing
00:55:59is going to unlock
00:56:00your ability
00:56:01to produce geothermal energy,
00:56:03hopefully,
00:56:04in a lot of places
00:56:04we don't think of
00:56:05as geothermal right now.
00:56:06Will you just,
00:56:06in 30 seconds,
00:56:07say how widespread
00:56:08that could be?
00:56:09Yes,
00:56:10it could easily be nationwide
00:56:11and then the mission
00:56:12is to take that
00:56:12around the world.
00:56:14It's purely a function of cost
00:56:16and we've dropped costs
00:56:16so quickly
00:56:17and we're on a trajectory
00:56:20to drop it even more.
00:56:21It's going to unlock
00:56:21a huge resource.
00:56:22We can drill a well now
00:56:23to 15,000 feet deep
00:56:25for what we thought
00:56:27we could drill a well
00:56:27to 5,000 feet deep
00:56:28just a couple of years ago
00:56:29because of the drilling
00:56:30innovations we've had.
00:56:31And that means that
00:56:32while we're here in Utah
00:56:33because of the great local support
00:56:35and the great policy support,
00:56:37it's also because
00:56:37of the great geology.
00:56:39But what we're learning here
00:56:40allows us to develop
00:56:41the technologies,
00:56:42allow us to take this
00:56:43to other communities
00:56:44all across the country
00:56:45because we're lowering
00:56:45the drilling cost
00:56:46of development.
00:56:48My time's expired.
00:56:49Thank you very much.
00:56:50Representative Begich,
00:56:51your second round
00:56:51of five minutes.
00:56:53Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:56:54First question to Mr. Thompson.
00:56:58Stranded geothermal
00:56:59must be connected
00:57:00to the grid.
00:57:01What level of core grid investment
00:57:04is required nationwide?
00:57:05And you can give me
00:57:06a directional ballpark
00:57:07to fully utilize
00:57:08our nation's
00:57:09geothermal potential.
00:57:10Thank you very much
00:57:13for the question
00:57:14through the chair
00:57:15to Representative Begich.
00:57:16I was discussing this
00:57:17actually driving in today
00:57:18that I think
00:57:19with all the progress
00:57:21that we're going to see
00:57:21on permitting,
00:57:22the next hurdle
00:57:24will be transmission
00:57:25and interconnection
00:57:26of these facilities.
00:57:28I think a lot
00:57:29of what this committee
00:57:30has discussed
00:57:31and kind of streamlining
00:57:31permitting needs to apply
00:57:33to transmission infrastructure
00:57:34and we're going to need
00:57:35to build more.
00:57:36However, I also think
00:57:38we need to look
00:57:38at the existing transmission
00:57:40infrastructure.
00:57:41Today, it is a very
00:57:42archaic process.
00:57:44If you take
00:57:44a transmission position
00:57:46and you have
00:57:46your 30 megawatts,
00:57:48whether you use it
00:57:49or not,
00:57:49or whether it's
00:57:50an intermittent resource
00:57:51or not,
00:57:52you lock up
00:57:53that portion
00:57:53of the transmission.
00:57:54I would be willing
00:57:55to bet today
00:57:56that our entire
00:57:57transmission infrastructure
00:57:58is used about 50%
00:57:59of the time.
00:58:01And I think
00:58:01a real hard look
00:58:03at the open access
00:58:03tariff program
00:58:05at FERC
00:58:05and trying to figure out
00:58:07a very smart way
00:58:08to say I need
00:58:09to use my existing
00:58:10transmission assets
00:58:12more efficiently
00:58:13would unleash
00:58:15a huge amount
00:58:16of development.
00:58:18You know,
00:58:18these intermittent resources
00:58:19we talked about,
00:58:20we know some of them
00:58:21don't work
00:58:21when the sun goes down,
00:58:22but that transmission
00:58:23that they've procured
00:58:24is locked up.
00:58:26And so it's just amazing
00:58:27to me that load-serving
00:58:28entities and utilities
00:58:29aren't driving after this
00:58:31because more energy
00:58:33on that system,
00:58:34more revenue
00:58:34and wheeling charges
00:58:35and so forth.
00:58:36And then simultaneously
00:58:37we need to be building
00:58:38out more infrastructure,
00:58:40trying to move power
00:58:41to the places
00:58:41that need it
00:58:42is going to be
00:58:43the next step
00:58:43of unleashing
00:58:44this geothermal development.
00:58:46That's an insightful observation.
00:58:48I appreciate that commentary.
00:58:50My next question
00:58:51to Mr. Latimer.
00:58:53Grid resilience,
00:58:54grid diversity,
00:58:55grid upgrades
00:58:55and grid expansion
00:58:56require mining,
00:58:58specifically copper.
00:58:59Do you have concerns
00:59:00about supply
00:59:01of mineral resources
00:59:02necessary to develop
00:59:03those grid improvements?
00:59:05Well, it might be
00:59:09above my pay grade
00:59:10to talk about copper.
00:59:11I think you may be
00:59:11more of the expert
00:59:12on that topic.
00:59:14I think clearly
00:59:15without a doubt
00:59:15the transformation
00:59:17that's undergoing
00:59:18on the grid right now,
00:59:19the need to meet
00:59:20reliable power
00:59:21and drive emissions lower
00:59:22is going to require
00:59:23a huge amount
00:59:24of resources.
00:59:26I could speak
00:59:26a little bit more
00:59:27to geothermal
00:59:27than I can
00:59:28to the other parts.
00:59:31Of course,
00:59:32we need the grid
00:59:33to be successful,
00:59:34but I just know geothermal
00:59:35a little bit better.
00:59:36One of the big advantages
00:59:37of geothermal
00:59:38is we have a relatively
00:59:39straightforward supply chain
00:59:40and it's quite domestic already
00:59:42and we don't often require
00:59:44a lot of the same
00:59:45minerals
00:59:47or mining content
00:59:49that other resources have
00:59:50and a lot higher portion
00:59:52of it compared
00:59:52to other energy resources
00:59:53that are sourced here
00:59:54in the United States.
00:59:55So I think without a doubt,
00:59:57we're going to need
00:59:57to have all kinds
00:59:58of things
00:59:59to move forward
01:00:00on transforming the grid
01:00:01as we continue
01:00:03to improve it.
01:00:04But from where we sit
01:00:05in the geothermal world,
01:00:06we're very fortunate
01:00:07that we have
01:00:08straightforward projects
01:00:09with local
01:00:09and domestic supply chains
01:00:11without a lot
01:00:12of the same risks
01:00:13and exposures
01:00:13of other energy resources.
01:00:15So that's what
01:00:16the vantage point
01:00:16from geothermal looks like.
01:00:17So as long as the grid
01:00:18is there,
01:00:19the geothermal technology
01:00:20in terms of the resource load
01:00:23is relatively low
01:00:24compared to other
01:00:25energy generation sources.
01:00:27Okay.
01:00:28And last question.
01:00:29I've just got a minute
01:00:3030 left here
01:00:31for Dr. Moore.
01:00:35Can you walk us
01:00:36through the methodology
01:00:36for exploration,
01:00:38discovery,
01:00:38and proving up
01:00:39of a geothermal resource?
01:00:41Sure.
01:00:41In 30 seconds.
01:00:45Well, primarily,
01:00:46we're looking for hot rocks
01:00:48that are isotropic
01:00:51at this point.
01:00:52In other words,
01:00:53they have the same property
01:00:54in all directions.
01:00:55Granite would be the best.
01:00:57So we use a variety of techniques.
01:01:00We use seismic reflection
01:01:01to locate the top
01:01:02of the granite,
01:01:03where we're going
01:01:04to drill into it.
01:01:06We look for faults
01:01:08and fractures in the rocks.
01:01:10We're actually not
01:01:10trying to produce from them.
01:01:14We drill a test well,
01:01:16and probably the biggest
01:01:18and most important step
01:01:20is to drill a test well
01:01:21that is deep enough.
01:01:22So the first well
01:01:23we drilled was 8,000 feet deep,
01:01:26and that gave us information
01:01:27on temperature,
01:01:29which is absolutely critical,
01:01:31stress field.
01:01:32We have to know
01:01:32which way the Earth's forces
01:01:34are pushing against us,
01:01:36so we drill in the proper directions.
01:01:39Again, rock type.
01:01:40And so those are pretty basic.
01:01:43I would guess a typical,
01:01:46like it for 10 million
01:01:48to do the basic exploration.
01:01:53That's a relatively low-cost investment
01:01:55relative to other exploratory activities
01:01:58in the energy space.
01:01:59My time has expired,
01:02:01and I appreciate your commentary.
01:02:05I want to thank the witnesses
01:02:06for your valuable testimony,
01:02:08and to my congressional members
01:02:10for their questioning.
01:02:13Without question,
01:02:14Utah leads in geothermal,
01:02:16and I think for many, many years
01:02:18you will.
01:02:19The expertise,
01:02:20the opportunities you have here.
01:02:22The members of the subcommittee
01:02:24may have some additional questions
01:02:25for the witnesses,
01:02:26and we will ask you
01:02:27to respond to these in writing.
01:02:29Under Committee Rule 3,
01:02:30members of the committee
01:02:31must submit questions
01:02:32to the committee clerk
01:02:33by 5 p.m. on Thursday, May 15th.
01:02:36The hearing record
01:02:37will be held open
01:02:38for 10 business days
01:02:39for these responses.
01:02:40And before I gavel out,
01:02:42I want to recognize
01:02:43SUU President,
01:02:44President Mindy Benson
01:02:46in the audience
01:02:47for your hospitality.
01:02:50It's greatly appreciated.
01:02:51So what a wonderful university.
01:02:52Thank you, President Benson.
01:02:55I also want to thank
01:02:56I want to thank the audience
01:03:03for your attendance.
01:03:04What an opportunity
01:03:05your great state has.
01:03:08And of course,
01:03:08Representative Malloy
01:03:09who has brought me
01:03:11to your great state twice now.
01:03:13And Utah is something special,
01:03:15and it's a privilege
01:03:15serving with you in Congress.
01:03:18And I'm going to take,
01:03:18I'm just going to put in
01:03:19a shameless, shameless plug.
01:03:23Minnesota is the state of hockey.
01:03:25The Utah Mammoth
01:03:26just signed my nephew,
01:03:28Jackson Stauber,
01:03:29as a goaltender
01:03:30for another two years.
01:03:31So if there's no further business,
01:03:34if there's no further business,
01:03:37the committee stands adjourned.
01:03:38Thank you all.
01:03:38Be safe.
01:03:40That was awesome.
01:03:52That was awesome.
01:03:53That was awesome.