At Tuesday's Senate Veterans Affairs Committee hearing, Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI) questioned VA Secretary Doug Collins.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Facts are important, so why don't we get to some facts. You were asked how many VA personnel have been let go, and you said 1,000, but this committee had been given information that there were some 2,400 who have been let go, and then you're trying to get back to 2019 numbers, which would be another 70,000 to 80,000.
00:25So what happened to the other 1,000 or so that we have been told have been released by the VA?
00:33Following the court order, they're back employed.
00:35I'm sorry?
00:36Following the court order, they are back employed.
00:39Okay, so in other words, when you fired all these people or let them go, you didn't follow appropriate procedures, and therefore you had to hire them back.
00:49That's not what I consider a process that is going to determine whether or not people are doing their job.
00:54I disagree with that premise that we had one judge in one area do this.
00:58This court is still being litigated, so as you well know, the litigation form.
01:01We have actually had in other departments where they have fired people and other judges that have said you have to follow an actual procedure.
01:10So getting back to some factual information, in February 21, you claim that the VA has saved millions of dollars by firing staff.
01:19How much have you saved?
01:21You said millions.
01:23What's the amount?
01:25Those millions and the round amount I'd have to get back, especially now with those who've come back, there's probably a different number that I'd have to get back with you.
01:32Aren't you prepared to give us that information knowing that you are testifying, knowing that you will probably be asked for factual information such as this?
01:40So you don't know, even if you said in February, that you saved millions of dollars by firing staff.
01:47And then you said, also, let me finish my question, please.
01:51Well, we did say $14 million when we did away with our DEI.
01:55You say $14 million.
01:56Yeah.
01:57Okay, so then my next question is, where is all that money going?
02:01I have a series of questions relating to your comments on February 21st.
02:06So you said millions of dollars.
02:08Now you're testifying.
02:10First you said you would have to get back to me, but now you're saying $14 million.
02:14Also, by cutting unnecessary programs, can you tell me what unnecessary programs specifically you have cut?
02:21And then you've redirected those savings, some $14 million, you say today, to veterans.
02:30And I would like to know specifically where these monies were redirected.
02:36Do you have that information today?
02:37The number that I gave you just now on the DEI was the $14 million.
02:40Those have been directed to those with disabilities and prosthetics.
02:43We've also had a part of that millions was also contracts that were either terminated or renegotiated that we were in the process of doing as well.
02:50I think you need to tell us exactly what contracts have been terminated because that's the thing about a contract, you know?
02:56When you terminate it, you have to have a reason for that.
02:58Otherwise, you end up having to pay.
03:00Senator, also, in the contracts, you also have to, when you're going through contracts and renegotiation,
03:06you also have to make sure that you're doing it properly.
03:09We're going to give you all the information you need when those are actually finished.
03:13I would hope that you would have had all that specific information today.
03:17You have about 500,000 employees at the VA?
03:21I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.
03:22Does that sound right?
03:23You have 500,000 employees at the VA?
03:26No, we do not.
03:27What is the number?
03:28About 470.
03:30Okay, that's getting pretty close to 500,000.
03:33Yeah, it's a little high.
03:34And what categories are they employed?
03:37I mean, for example, how many nurses, how many doctors?
03:41Do you have this 470,000 employees broken down by categories of jobs?
03:47Well, that is part of our problem, Senator.
03:48I laid that out in my opening statement and also in my conversation with...
03:53But you don't know.
03:54No.
03:54You don't have that information.
03:57Let me say something.
03:57Yes, we have over 300,000, probably closer to 400,000 position titles.
04:01But you know what the problem is?
04:02Before I ever got there, we couldn't even find some of these when our HR people started to look at it.
04:08So we took what we had at that point.
04:09Let me proceed.
04:10Well, if you want a direct answer, then I'm giving you a direct answer.
04:13You have a lot of people who are working for you I would like to know, you know,
04:16because there are questions about who are you actually going to let go when you get to the 2019 numbers that is your goal.
04:25So you asked some questions about the clinical trials.
04:28That's very important to provide health care services to our veterans when they are enrolled in clinical trials.
04:35Do you know how many clinical trials are in pause?
04:38And do you know how many veterans are in clinical trials?
04:42I'd have to get that number back to you.
04:45Is it 10?
04:46Is it more than, are we talking about 1,000 clinical trials?
04:51No, we're not talking about 1,000.
04:52But again, here's the question.
04:54Can you give me a ballpark figure?
04:56No, I'm not going to ballpark because it will be used against me next time I'm here.
05:00You don't know how many people that you have put on pause so that they are not getting the health care services that they need.
05:06Because that's what a clinical trial is.
05:09You are getting medication.
05:11You are seeing doctors.
05:12You put these trials on pause.
05:14You cannot tell me how many veterans are now being paused in their clinical trials.
05:19You cannot tell me how many veterans are in and enrolled in clinical trials.
05:23You also cannot tell me how many clinical trials impact some, well, you have 9 point, over 9 million veterans that you are taking care of.
05:32Clinical trials are very important.
05:34You said so yourself.
05:35Mr. Chairman, I have other questions.
05:39You know, it's very clear that our Secretary has not come with much in the way of numbers.
05:45And I really don't know how he's going to go about eliminating getting to 2019 figures for cutting employees.
05:54And he can't tell us what the categories of employees are, et cetera, et cetera.
05:58So I think we're going to need to hear from Mr. Secretary again.
06:02Mr. Secretary, would you commit to coming back to this committee to provide us the kind of information that we are asking for and to respond to questions?
06:10I will get you the information that you asked for.
06:13Will you come back to testify or is this it for us with you, Mr. Secretary?
06:17I will get you the information that you're looking for, Senator.
06:20Mr. Chairman, we're not getting any commitment from the Secretary that he will come back to this committee to provide us the responses to our questions.
06:27That says a lot.
06:28Good morning, Secretary.
06:33Good morning.
06:33How are you doing?
06:34I guess it may be afternoon.
06:35Having a ball.