In this episode of the Biscuits and Jam Podcast, Southern Living's Sid Evans talks to Ashley Christensen, a two-time James Beard Award-winning chef, restaurateur, and cookbook author based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Known for her innovative take on Southern cuisine, Ashley's culinary domain extends from her acclaimed restaurants like Poole's Diner and Death & Taxes to her home kitchen, where she and her wife enjoy cooking together. Join us as we dive into her passion for hospitality, grilling, and the transformative power of food!
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00:00Well, Ashley Christensen, welcome to Biscuits and Jam.
00:03Great to be here. Thank you, Sid.
00:05It's great to see you. It's been way too long. Where am I reaching you right now?
00:10I'm a little warm today because I'm sitting inside of the space that we are currently renovating to be the expansion of Pools Diner.
00:21And based on it being empty, you know, saving our pennies and not running the air conditioning right now.
00:27But I'm, yeah, just sitting here making some notes about some work we have going on next week.
00:34But I'm home in Raleigh, of course, and it's really nice to be home this week.
00:38That's great. Well, yeah, I heard about that. I saw the news.
00:42And it's exciting for Pools, although, you know, I'm sure you're also a little bit sad to be letting go of Poolside Pies.
00:50Yeah, certainly. I think over the course of my career, those types of moves become a little different than perhaps they would have when I was younger.
01:01But it feels, you know, it's very interesting. I was just telling this story yesterday.
01:05Anyway, this building that that is that was Poolside Pies, my wife and I, this is our only commercial real estate that we own.
01:14And we actually bought this building without a plan for a restaurant.
01:20We bought it to save pools. We bought it so that it could really be we're in a sort of hotbed for development and, you know, high, high story rezoning.
01:31And there was a lot of a lot of interest in this area right around pools.
01:37And we were hearing all kinds of, you know, developers pop up and say, oh, we'd love to build you a new pools.
01:43And that just absolutely terrified me. Yeah, that just that can't really be done.
01:48You know, it has to the original pools needs to be there.
01:50So I bought this building to kind of be the nail building and lock in sort of a security blanket for pools.
01:59So it's been it's, you know, it's bittersweet to close Poolside Pies.
02:05Very fun concept that we, you know, built a beautiful, light, bright space and getting to do it in a new way as the owners of the building,
02:16getting to serve Napoli inspired pizza, which we just loved.
02:20But it is, you know, just part of this business when if you can't hit the numbers that the space requires and the location requires,
02:30then you have to kind of get back to the drawing board.
02:33And it felt felt a little bit destined here for having this great time with this concept that we,
02:41you know, I think one of the one of the difficult things about Poolside was that we opened six months before the pandemic.
02:46So it got it had some extra challenges, extra baggage.
02:52Yeah. Yeah.
02:54So but it feels very good to be to be in this place where we will now expand our first restaurant.
03:02And that, you know, that restaurant is a 2000 square foot space.
03:06It's very, very special to me and it's very special to a lot of people and to now be able to add this complement of space to this space.
03:16That's been so exciting to work in, but also very challenging because of the limited space.
03:22And it's a building from the 40s that hasn't had like a real true like down to the bones facelift at any point.
03:30So we're we're really excited to have some more space to serve more people, but also and we can get into this a little bit.
03:40It's kind of a neat kind of a neat plan and a neat story.
03:42But, you know, we'll finish the 428 space, which was Poolside, and we'll move pools to here while we renovate the original pools.
03:53And then we'll connect the two.
03:55Oh, wow. You got some real projects ahead of you.
03:57Yeah. In original pools, our goal is to like get it, you know, we'll do new ceiling and, you know, new walls and redo the floors,
04:06but to really still preserve the spirit of that place and to be really true to its history and the bones of the space.
04:14So that when you walk in there, it still feels the same, but it won't be.
04:18I will have the chance to like address the sound dampening that we've needed for so long.
04:23Things like that. It's just that that building has earned some love and we're really, really excited to have the chance to without closing the offerings of pools to be able to pay attention to it that way.
04:35Yeah, that's great. Well, I know the fans of pools are going to be very excited about the new space and and just seeing it all,
04:43you know, you know, get redone. Yeah. So just for people who haven't been, you know, you're in Raleigh.
04:50Where in Raleigh are you exactly? And, you know, kind of what part of town?
04:55Yeah, we're right downtown across from the convention center.
04:59And, you know, this ties in pretty well to the theme of Biscuits and Jam.
05:06We're also right next to a really wonderful amphitheater that we've just gotten into the live music season here.
05:14I love that. And that's kind of goes back to you.
05:18I was going to ask you about this later, but that kind of goes back to your interest in music, which, you know, is really deep.
05:24And you were at one point, you know, thinking about heading into the music business, right?
05:30That is true.
05:32Yeah. Around age 19, I was working as a college music rep and thought I, you know, is really intrigued by the business of music.
05:43And I would kind of later learn that the business part of music wasn't the part of music that I love.
05:49And I've managed to hang on to a real appreciation for so much, so much music and so much that contributes to music, but to not be on the on the business side of it.
06:02Well, you are tailor made for Biscuits and Jam. So I'm really glad you're here.
06:05So, you know, Ashley, I'm a little belated saying this, but, you know, I want to say congrats on winning a South's Best Award.
06:15You know, our April issue come out a couple of months ago and you Pools won South's Best Diner.
06:24And, you know, I know that you guys have had many, many accolades, but this one is voted on by the readers of Southern Living all over the country.
06:37So, you know, it's it's kind of a special one, at least to us.
06:40And I hope it meant something to you as well.
06:43Well, it's huge. And I really like being in that category because diner for me has always been part of my draw to the concept of diners that when I was a child, my father was a truck driver.
06:57And when he would find himself in a new city, he always kind of looked for the glow of a diner as he as he pulled into town.
07:04And for him, it wasn't just about like what he would eat.
07:09It was about how he felt when he walked into a diner and this idea of like, you know, a place for everyone and this idea of like comfort as a through line.
07:22And so it feels very special to be in that category.
07:26It's definitely been the driving creative principle for us is this idea that doesn't mean one kind of food.
07:34It means this open attraction to comfort and to welcoming folks.
07:42So I really like that and that I think that the concept of diner is not limited, as we know, to one one type of food.
07:50And it's very exciting to over the years to continue to evolve what what that space means to us, what it means to the community.
08:01And it is a huge compliment to to receive that recognition.
08:07But I also have to say and I talk I talk about this with so many chefs across the South.
08:13If you grew up in the South, you may as a chef receive all kinds of, you know, notoriety or attention in publications and the New York Times or, you know, whatever it might be.
08:26But there is nothing to your mother like being in Southern living.
08:33That's when you've made it to any Southern mother when you've made it to Southern living.
08:38So, well, I love hearing that, you know, I think it's a testament to y'all to have been at it for so long and still doing incredible work and have such a fan base.
08:48And I mean, you've been at it for over, I think, over 15 years now, right?
08:52Yeah, we as as Pools Diner, under my guidance, we celebrated 16 years in December, which is pretty wild.
09:01That's fantastic.
09:02Well, keep it up.
09:03Keep it up.
09:04You've got plenty of plenty of people that still want to go and have it on their bucket list.
09:09You know, you mentioned your dad and kind of growing up.
09:12And I wanted to ask you about where you grew up, which I believe is Karnersville.
09:17Is that right?
09:18That's correct.
09:19Yeah, I was born in Greensboro.
09:20We moved to Karnersville when I was three.
09:23I mentioned my father was a truck driver when I was a child.
09:27And my mother became a real estate agent when I was pretty young.
09:31But we moved to this small town because my my dad was often on the road and my mom really wanted the opportunity to kind of raise my brother and I in a smaller community with, you know, a little bit a little bit more connection to the idea of like growing up with neighbors, etc.
09:51So my father being a truck driver meant he was he was a long haul driver.
09:55So he was often away for extended periods of time, which was tough as a little kid.
10:01But that also meant he was home for extended periods of time as well.
10:05So his hobby was gardening.
10:08And I grew up with the many benefits of having beautiful produce growing right outside of our door.
10:16And he was also a hobbyist beekeeper.
10:19So and then my mom loves it.
10:23And she has an incredibly powerful green thumb.
10:27My whole family does.
10:27I'm the only one like without the green thumb.
10:30Mine is from cutting down the plants, you know.
10:32So but yeah, they so I grew up around, you know, with these parents who just loved to grow food to can and preserve and to do all day cooking, but they cooked really beautifully together.
10:48So it's a really special experience for me.
10:51And they also loved to entertain and not in like a grand way, but more in we're going to cook this beautiful meal and we're going to play music.
11:00And there's some cocktail we've been thinking about or some wine we're excited about.
11:04And they would just have all these fun friends over.
11:07And my parents would teach them to eat things they didn't think they liked, you know, always with some something great playing on the turntable.
11:15And so I just I grew up with that energy, you know, and I think it has a lot to do with what I do now, both professionally and why personally I feel such a strong connection to it.
11:29It just sounds like a great environment, particularly for someone who loves food as much as you do.
11:34And, you know, I think in in the book or somewhere I saw you talking about your parents dancing when they would cook and they it was just very, you know, festive and fun, even when it was just the two of them.
11:50Oh, yeah.
11:51And we had this.
11:52So my mother lives in the house I grew up and my father has passed away.
11:57They, in fact, were divorced when I was 14, but remained very close.
12:03And certainly my father continued to call my mother almost up to the day died to ask questions about recipes he wanted to cook.
12:12Really, really special.
12:13But they they just had such a neat energy.
12:17But, yeah, so my mother lives in the house I grew up in and still when I go there, I sit down in the afternoon at the bar that looks into the kitchen.
12:27And that is really where when I think about childhood, when it was just my brother and my father and my mother, that's what I picture is my brother and I sitting there, you know,
12:37scratching away at homework or drawing in our notepads or whatever it might be and watching as the, you know, just the two of them cooked around each other in their and their special their special way.
12:51And, you know, sharing in this amazing language of food and both looking at it differently.
12:56But the way they work together, it was just so neat and complimentary.
13:00Tell me a little bit about that kitchen.
13:01And I mean, what is, you know, if you could kind of paint a picture of that kitchen, what is it?
13:07What does it look like?
13:08The house itself is just kind of a one story ranch, you know, and the kitchen really sat right in the middle of right in the middle of the house.
13:18And the bedrooms are off of a hallway that kind of runs off that main section of the house.
13:23But otherwise, the kitchen is just right there in the middle.
13:26And it was kind of when we moved in, I remember it was really like kind of a dark house and dark wood paneling and, you know, lots of little kind of not not tidy, but, you know, kind of smaller rooms all boxed off.
13:40And my father was very later in life, he became a carpenter and contractor and but he always loved building.
13:48And actually, at some point, my mom had him go off to a building camp in in Vermont, I think.
13:54But he he loved to, like, do these renovations on the house and so ended up, you know, kind of renovating the whole house.
14:03And one of the things he did was to open the kitchen up where there used to be a cabinet that separated the kitchen that was hung very low, where you kind of had to peek under it from that bar section.
14:15And my father opened all that up and put in lots of French doors where there were might have been a smaller window, that kind of thing.
14:22So the house is really filled with light, but with this kitchen sitting right at the center of it.
14:28And so that was as much the living room as as as any place in in our in our home.
14:34And so I'd say, like, the order of operations for, like, spaces we would spend time in would be right there centered around that kitchen or on the back patio looking out into the gardens.
14:45Of course, there was a big dining table in the dining room.
14:47And then the other side of that wall was were the French doors that went to the patio.
14:51That was the other dining room.
14:53So so it was all very open.
14:55And just, you know, I love that.
14:57That's how I live now, you know, is at home.
15:00You know, my desk is the dining room table.
15:02And I did the same thing when I bought a house when I was 26 years old, lived there for a few years and then ultimately put in beams and repped out all the walls and didn't fight that that feeling of where everyone, of course, is going to gather in the kitchen.
15:19Yeah, especially in your house.
15:20You know, for kids, I think it's important.
15:21I think to be, you know, like this idea that both my parents worked.
15:26So when my mom would come home and say my father was on the road, this was a way that she could prepare dinner for us and we could still be together, you know.
15:35And so and as much as they love to cook, it meant we could spend a lot of time together while they were doing this thing they love because we were right there with them, you know, sketched away at that at that bar.
15:45So, Ashley, did you have a bunch of family around there?
15:48I mean, were there a lot of, you know, were the cousins or aunts and uncles or that sort of thing?
15:54And I'm wondering about the about the holidays.
15:58You know, if that it seems like as much as your folks loved to entertain, that the holidays would have been a really big, big thing in your house.
16:06Yes, certainly.
16:06So it's kind of interesting.
16:08You know, my mother, I was born in Memphis, Tennessee.
16:11My hometown.
16:12Yes.
16:12But she was also an Air Force brat.
16:14So she grew up in England and Japan and Memphis.
16:19And so, you know, you everyone sort of thinks like, oh, my father's from New York.
16:23So you think of us being kind of rooted by this Southern family.
16:27When in fact, my father, my parents met in the South.
16:31My father moved to North Carolina from the Bronx when he was like what would be called junior high age at the time.
16:39And with his mother and a stepfather and then, you know, his brothers and sisters.
16:45And so he actually came to North Carolina as a kid.
16:49But, you know, before my mother came to North Carolina.
16:51So I had this I had a lot of family close by, but they were they were all these northerners, which is kind of amazing.
17:00And then, you know, my of course, my mother's family was in Memphis.
17:05And so we travel there quite a bit.
17:08But, yes, my father's side of the family were nearby and we would often have, you know, at that point in time, a lot of the New York relatives had made their way out to Long Island.
17:17So we would go there to visit for some, you know, some holidays and such.
17:22But usually my parents were hosting the big holiday and sometimes my family would from afar would come in.
17:31But often we spent it with my father's mother and stepfather and my aunts and uncles on that side.
17:39But, yeah, it was always it was always a big deal.
17:41Well, I specifically remember a Christmas where we had this big family Christmas dinner and my father was like perfecting his roasted duck.
17:51And there were enough enough family there that he had roasted two ducks.
17:56And, you know, he, of course, then having a few drinks in the kitchen while he was, you know, making making this beautiful meal with my mother.
18:04He was feeling very festive and he walked out to the dining room table and he said, hey, look, Ashley, it's Donald and Daisy.
18:11And I said, you know, he's burst into tears as a little kid.
18:15And my mom's like, Fox, why?
18:18But he always he always had some some project he was teaching himself about.
18:22And my cooking started in a very similar way.
18:25You know, I thought about both how my mother cooks and how my father cooks.
18:29And my mother is just this real natural, like she'll read something for inspiration.
18:34And then she just her body just moves and does it from there.
18:38And my father was like would teach himself, but he was very meticulous.
18:42Like he was always double checking the recipe, which, you know, you get into thinking about him becoming a carpenter and the idea of, you know, measure twice and cut once.
18:50Whereas my mother just was very freestyle and together.
18:54That was a really beautiful thing.
18:55And I, I, I cook a little bit more like my mother, but, but I find knowledge about food the way that my father did.
19:03Well, I hope he didn't ruin duck for you forever.
19:08I often think about when we put rabbit on a menu, how it just happens to generally be spring when Easter is right.
19:16I'm like, we got to wait till after Easter so the kids don't freak out when they come in.
19:21So.
19:22You talked, I think it was in your book.
19:24Yeah.
19:25What's the name of the freezer?
19:26It's called It's Always Freezer Season, right?
19:28It's Always Freezer Season.
19:29That's right.
19:30Which we released during the pandemic.
19:33Yeah.
19:34Yeah.
19:34And, uh, you talked about how you and your wife love to cook at home.
19:41Yes.
19:42And I find that so interesting, you know, for someone who is in restaurants and who is, um, you know, cooking every day and, or surrounded by cooking every day.
19:53And then, and then you come home or, and it may be a, I don't know if it's a weeknight or a weekend, but when you have a little downtime that you like to cook as a way to relax.
20:05And I just, I'm curious how that kind of works for you.
20:08Yeah.
20:08I mean, I think it is sort of the ultimate testament to loving what you do, you know, the sort of a proof's in the pudding, right?
20:16Like I come home from thinking about this all day in a restaurant context and I often solve, uh, for challenges in the restaurant kitchen or the restaurant as a whole by sort of cooking through them at home and thinking, thinking about, um, eating food, thinking about cooking food and thinking about what it means to serve food.
20:39And so I consider it a real pleasure to cook at home and to have that type of space.
20:45I think while, while in the restaurant, there are a lot of questions and there are a lot of people and I love that energy too, but just to be at home, letting it kind of flow is a, is a really beautiful thing.
20:55But like I, you know, this morning I was leaving the house and I was drinking my coffee and thinking about my morning.
21:03And while doing so, I got out some bone-in pork chops I'd picked up at the market a couple of days ago and I've been working on this Greek vinaigrette for Easley's for our fried chicken joint.
21:15And I'm like, I'm going to marinate these in some of this Greek vinaigrette and think about it for, um, how it's going to tenderize, you know, this, these pork chops.
21:24And I'm thinking both about, you know, this, this grilled chicken I want to put on as an alternative at the fried chicken joint marinated in this and the Greek salad that we also want to do.
21:33And I'm also thinking about, um, you know, my little lodge cast iron grill and cranking that up with some live cools tonight and how delicious dinner is going to be.
21:43So those things all are kind of intertwined.
21:46Um, but much like my parents, like, uh, my wife, Kate and I are very different cooks.
21:51We appreciate so many of the same things, but I have a style and she has a style and, you know, she, um, has a food background, but in, um, in food media.
22:02So when we met, she was living in New York and, uh, working, um, with Tasting Table at the time and had worked for food and wine before that.
22:11She's co-authored a number of cookbooks, uh, but she actually thought she wanted to go to pastry school or culinary school.
22:19And I think her folks were like, nope, but have fun at NYU.
22:23And she, uh, wrote a, uh, food writing degree.
22:26Uh, she, she got to write her curriculum and, uh, sort of as a, I think like a university undesignated, you get to influence your, your degree.
22:36So that's what she did.
22:37And, um, she is a little bit more of the meticulous, well-measured.
22:42She's a great baker.
22:43I was going to say, she sounds like more of a sweet person.
22:46Yeah, yeah, and, uh, and she is a little bit spicier than I am.
22:52She's a little bit more into complex flavors that, uh, I think are, represent these, you know, where you really have to follow and know so much about exactly what you're working with.
23:06But I watch her do these sort of measurements for these different spice rubs and stuff.
23:10Whereas I'm, I'm wanting to like, you know, smell the container, throw it in there, mix it up, give it a shot, you know.
23:17And that's, I struggle with baking because I'm like, what if I just did this and, you know, added a little more of this and you're patiently waiting for it to not turn out while it's in the oven.
23:26She's just shaking her head at me to put me on some live fire coals or in front of the stove and, uh, or, or in the, in the garbage section.
23:36And I can make a lot of things happen without ever measuring anything.
23:39And I love that.
23:40And I think it creates a really neat energy of, of how we move around each other in the kitchen, much like what I grew up with.
23:47Yeah. You know, I've seen you post over the, I follow you on Instagram and, um, I've seen you post over the years.
23:54Um, it seems like more about grilling in the last few years.
23:59Is that something that has become, maybe it was always there or is that a little bit of a new passion for you?
24:05Yeah. So my parents also grilled a lot, um, growing up and, and, and being from, uh, my mom being from Memphis, her father, uh, you know.
24:15But love to make like barbecue chicken on the grill.
24:20And so I grew up with a lot of that type of grilled cooking and, you know, my parents always cooked steaks on the grill and always did a lot of vegetable things on the grill.
24:30Um, that said, I had never had the chance to work on a, um, hardwood grill, uh, working for anyone else in my, my time of, you know, working for others before I opened a restaurant.
24:44And so I think that's a very special experience and I would, you know, cook with charcoal at home and that sort of thing.
24:50But I took a trip, uh, with some, some folks, you know, um, as well to Uruguay.
24:56And I don't even recall it's how long it's been.
24:59It's been over 10 years, I think, since we went, but, uh, with, uh, our little crew that we call the Fat Mac Collective.
25:06Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah.
25:07Yeah. Group of, uh, pit masters, chefs, and writers who would, um, you know, get together and kind of take food adventures together.
25:15And, and just, it was a really neat kind of partnership among all of us to teach each other the things we knew and to look at food with unique perspectives together and then to come home and talk about it more and see where it took us.
25:29But we went to Uruguay and, you know, this is a place where everywhere, everything is about live fire cooking.
25:36And if you're inside of a place and they're, they're cooking in an indoor kitchen, they're doing it on an old school stove that has coals inside of that stove.
25:45And so it was a real turning point for me.
25:48And I didn't know that it would lead to, um, a live fire restaurant.
25:53Ultimately, it kind of led to two based on the wood fire oven, you know, at, uh, what now will be the expansion of Pools Diner and then also our, um, our grill at Death and Taxes.
26:05But, uh, at the time, you know, it was a really interesting time in cooking too, because I think there are so many conversations about like molecular gastronomy and, um, you know, we were in this moment where that was kind of sweeping, you know, such an interesting thing.
26:21And when done properly and used thoughtfully, it's, it's, can be really brilliant.
26:25Uh, but I think you really want to have experience in the basics of cooking and smelling food cooking and hearing food cooking before diving into that.
26:35So we were in this sort of very modernist space of conversation around food at the time.
26:40And we went to this place where it was just so rustic and down to this really elemental idea of cooking.
26:49And what, what that trip taught me was to think about fire, not as fire in the grill, but to think of fire as how fire and the products of fire can be shaped and nuanced.
27:03And, and, and really, it's very romantic to me.
27:06It's like this idea of how things can communicate through this centering idea of fire and coals and embers.
27:13And so really in getting down to this very bare bones idea of, um, getting very close to these different temperatures and sometimes far away from these temperatures and what that means to the things that they're things we're creating relationships between.
27:33And so it just really, the simplest thing and the simplest idea that's been with us for so very long, opened my mind up so much about new ways to think about cooking.
27:46And so I was building a fire almost every day at home and, you know, burning wood down to coals and thinking about when the fire is like burning brightest down to those glowing embers,
28:00down to the dying embers and all the different ways that that can speak to the beautiful things that, that grow here in the South.
28:08So I think it's very, very special.
28:09And I think it's very important to, um, think about cooking that way because it's just so pure and it really helps you understand more, uh, of course, heat, but also all the ingredients that, that we introduce heat to.
28:24And to, uh, I think it's, uh, I really can be so pure, but also it can be so complicated too, you know, it's endless and it's what I love about food.
28:35It's what I love about restaurants.
28:37You're never, ever done.
28:38And it's, there's just so much more every day that can be discovered by things that somebody at some point in time has said they mastered.
28:48I really, I struggle with that idea of mastering anything because what's fun about that?
28:54Yeah.
28:54You're, you're always learning.
28:56Well, it sounds like you might have a lot of our cooking book in you, Ashley.
29:00I think about it, you know, and if there's, if there's a story to tell about how all of our relationships with these things can be unique to us, you know, can be unique to, uh, where we live, where, where we call home, what we grow,
29:17what our neighbors grow.
29:19Um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's very fun, you know, and one of the most, one of the neatest things to me is just that, that idea of the dying coals, like what burying sweet potatoes and coals that are on their way to cool down or burying whole heads of garlic and, and, uh, you know, and, and how much value there is in, um, the resource of fire.
29:40When we think about how to use it from its first spark down to the cooling of the coals.
29:46And if you really plan for that, you know, into your cooking, but I had, uh, you know, I had Pat Martin on here, uh, recently and I saw you post something about his new book.
29:56And, uh, we, we had a great conversation about all this.
30:00Yeah.
30:00He is just completely obsessed and, you know, has been doing this his whole life and it never gets old.
30:06He's still just as fired up about it to, so to speak, as he ever was.
30:11And, uh, yeah, it's, you know, always learning something.
30:15Absolutely.
30:15And I, I'm thinking back when we were touring on the pools book, I went to Martin's and did an event with Pat and it was so great.
30:24Like we, you know, with every chef we went and visited, we had them kind of pick their favorites out of the book and to, you know, put their own spin on it to keep it as a really energized book tour.
30:35And Pat, like built a, uh, you know, he's got all these fun toys and tools at, at Martin's in downtown Nashville.
30:43And he like lays out, builds a live fire bed, like right in the middle of where all of his guests are out in his, uh, atrium area.
30:52And I'm like, only Pat.
30:55And he was so excited and just, he, it is, it is such a pleasure to watch him.
31:01He's like a little kid, you know, to talk about like never being done.
31:04I think he really, really captures that.
31:07But, uh, yeah, he is, he's a, he's a fire guy through and through for sure.
31:11Well, Ashley, I want to talk about hospitality for a second and specifically at, at pools.
31:17I mean, you've got, you know, a number of great restaurants, um, and it seems like it's expanding all the time.
31:24I, you know, I want to focus on pools and, and, um, I have a confession to make, which is that I feel like I know what's coming.
31:31I've never been to pools.
31:33Like I said, you know, when you just let it give us more time to practice when you say things like that, I cannot believe it, but I just, I, you know, I really haven't been to Raleigh that much.
31:44And I, I feel like I'm definitely missing out and I'm way overdue on a trip, you know, for someone who is sitting down at pools for the first time, and you've got a lot of people that are traveling a long way, I think to come check it out.
32:01What do you want their experience to be?
32:04What do you want them to walk away with?
32:05Well, there was something I had envisioned and how we designed that restaurant, uh, or designed around, you know, the existing ghost and, and physical presence there in that building.
32:18Uh, I had this idea in mind, and I know we, we see chalkboards all over the place, but this was 16 years ago, and there weren't a lot of restaurants in Raleigh with chalkboard menus at the time.
32:31So we put up these chalkboard menus, and, um, my thought was, I, I loved the idea.
32:38First of all, I, you know, had worked in so many places where you were just printing all the time, and there'd be an error on the menu, and you'd have to reprint all the menus, and it just felt so wildly wasteful to, like, always be printing all this paper.
32:53And so that, that was a part of it, but I just also loved the idea of people together, different people who didn't know each other, looking at the same thing to decide what their experience was going to be.
33:06And so I, I, that was something that I had in mind for sure, um, but the way that it ended up working was so beyond anything I could have imagined.
33:16And what you would, what you still see over and over again at pools is that people, when they're looking at the boards for the first time, have a little bit of a specific kind of expression that someone who has seen the boards many times recognizes.
33:30So we have a lot of regulars, and they are so skilled at spotting first-time people, and you'll see someone say to someone they've never met before, hey, is this your first time here?
33:42And that's not an employee saying that to them, that's another guest saying, you know, is this your first time at pools?
33:48And there's this pride that people have for sharing the place with others, and I think that's, like, a real key ingredient to success.
33:56If you can, in the restaurant industry, if you can create something that people feel pride and ownership over in a way that they want to share it with a stranger, then you've hit on something, you know, you've hit something special.
34:09So we see that, we see people, you know, say, oh, first time here, you've got to try this.
34:15Even if you think you don't like beets, I didn't think I liked them either, and here are the beets or just something special.
34:21So you've got to try that.
34:22This is, I know this dish, and it's not going to be on the menu much longer, so make sure you get that.
34:27And so to witness that is, like, I mean, I've got, like, goosebumps just thinking about it, you know, and it's, you can't make that stuff up.
34:36You know, it's really, really special to me.
34:38But also, I think one of the most special things, it's a physical trait of the space, but it's such a big part of the hospitality, and that's the double horseshoe bar.
34:48And I do write about it in our book.
34:51I talk about it when people want to talk about what's special about the space, but it's the original, the celery green formica, you know, the kind of tin rim edge round.
35:03And, but the shape is, it's a double horseshoe.
35:06And what I think is really special about that, I think I love folks who sit at the bar generally because sometimes people are there as a group, but often you'll have solo diners who are those travelers who might be there on business, and someone said, hey, check this place out.
35:20Or they've been, they've traveled just to come and see us, and they're there to experience the place.
35:25They're not there because they had to fulfill a dinner date or whatever it might be.
35:29They're there because they really want to be there.
35:31Now, at the double horseshoe, you know, one of the things, if you're with a group, it's always hard at a bar to, like, talk to someone beyond the person who's right next to you, whereas at this horseshoe shape, people are, like, all in your peripheral vision, and they just feel like a part of the crew you're sitting with.
35:49So people strike up these really organic conversations and meet new people at that bar all the time.
35:56And we have so many longtime regulars who will say, like, I met so-and-so, you know, here eight years ago.
36:03I went to their, we'd never met before, and we became friends, and now we travel together.
36:07Or I went to their son's graduation or, you know, things like that.
36:10And so I think that that shape, the reason you don't see it anymore is because it takes up a lot of real estate.
36:15Now, I would say, you know, it's the connections that are made at that bar are far more valuable than, you know, the monetary side of what real estate, having more real estate would have meant to us.
36:28And so I think that's really special.
36:29And then just looking at, when you look at the surface of that bar and you see just the little rubs from people's elbows and their glasses from, you know, what now is 70 plus years of that space, it's just incredible.
36:45Yeah, wow.
36:46Yeah, and also the fact that the servers can kind of come out into the bar and interact in a more kind of intimate way, the bartender.
36:56Yeah.
36:56So, Ashley, you know, you have been very open about being gay for a long time, and you've always made it very clear that pools and all your restaurants welcome everyone.
37:13And I mean, you said, I think there's actually a sign on the side of the building that says, all are welcome.
37:19Yes.
37:19Talk to me about that and how you can kind of use the restaurant and use hospitality as a force for good, as a force for, you know, for bringing people together.
37:32Absolutely.
37:33I mean, I think the, you know, the dinner table, so to speak, is such a great place to put differences aside, to put preconceived notions aside, to just be present and be a human.
37:48And for me, I look for the values and, you know, principles that I believe can be meaningful to all of us at our core and ultimately open us up to being more considerate and to being more kind to humanity as a whole.
38:08So the idea of, you know, I love the idea of people coming in and having meaningful conversation about things that matter to them, but being open to how people live, you know.
38:20And so the idea of all are welcome, you know, came at a time for us, like during HB2.
38:29And it actually was at the time, a friend of mine had bought the building that now is about to be the expansion of pools.
38:38And he had bought it so that I could figure out how to buy it from him because I was not positioned to buy it at that time.
38:45But he said, hey, what do you think about getting Luke to do a mural, you know, for people coming into Raleigh?
38:52So it was, it's got him James Goodnight Jr.
38:54And it was his idea.
38:55And Luke is employee number one in my company.
38:57So he's been with us since day one, which is almost 17 years in, you know, the team that we had together at that time.
39:05So he is our longest standing employee, and he kind of just hangs out still to continue to be a part of what we do a handful of days a week.
39:13But he's a very successful artist.
39:15And so he painted the original All Are Welcome mural.
39:19At the same time, we also have in our windows of every location, don't forget kindness.
39:27And that started not with a banner for a politician or anyone running for a race,
39:34but instead the message that I think is very important, which was don't forget to vote, you know.
39:39And I think, again, you know, when we value our freedoms and exercise our right to vote, I think it just leads to a healthier community.
39:48So we were at a time where an election had gone as such that the country was just felt so angry.
39:57And the election, the big election was over.
40:00And I said, well, let's let's change all these banners that say don't forget to vote to don't forget kindness.
40:06And it seemed like a great place for all of our heads to be.
40:10So I think centering ourselves, you know, when it comes to community work, the things that we naturally work on are, you know, food insecurity.
40:22I'm on the board for our soup kitchen in downtown Raleigh.
40:26I love that work.
40:27I work almost two decades very closely with a cause called the Frankie Lemon School, which is a school for children with developmental disabilities.
40:37And we are part of the fundraising team for that.
40:40We pay full tuition.
40:42It's an incredible program.
40:43I love that.
40:44And then beyond that, I really like to use my voice to help people be more open to the idea of like a little more live and let live and a little more, you know, just centering ourselves in goodness and kindness and it being less about what I've got that you don't or what you've got that I don't.
41:06And how to just, you know, just to be a better part of being a compliment to the human race.
41:14Yeah.
41:15So, yeah, let's take care of each other.
41:18Well, you know, there's always been something about diners and barbecue joints in particular, I think, that bring people together from across the spectrum, from all walks of life.
41:32And, you know, it's a place for people to gather who may not agree on a lot of things or who may come from completely different parts of the world or, you know, different parts of the country.
41:45They may have different viewpoints, but they come together in that place and they're sharing food together.
41:50And all of a sudden it starts to make those divisions go away a little bit.
41:54Absolutely.
41:55I'm sure this is said all over the South, but, you know, there's always this conversation like, oh, I don't get into talking religion.
42:02Politics or Barbecue.
42:04Yeah.
42:04Football sometimes.
42:06Football, yeah.
42:07And so, but, you know, I think the really interesting thing about barbecue is living in a city like Raleigh, you know, it used to be more the idea of like, well, this is, there's only this.
42:22This is the best and that's it.
42:23And these places were, you know, Raleigh, you know, it was when folks would come fly into town and say, we want to eat barbecue, take us to eat barbecue.
42:31Like, buckle up, we're going to drive out to Skylight and see Sam Jones and family.
42:35And now Sam Jones is in Raleigh.
42:39And now there's all these, there's a whole young culture of barbecue that I'm so blown away by because it is such hard work.
42:47And there are these amazing guys and gals doing it and they're popping up as part of this, like, metro specific, you know, offering.
42:57And now people are thinking about barbecue in different ways.
43:02So now you may, you may have folks who don't agree on politics and, and don't agree on religion, but they agree that all these barbecue places are great.
43:11It doesn't have to be one way.
43:13And I think that's a great, that's a great, you know, kind of parallel to life, you know, like there are now all these, these amazing folks cooking Texas brisket in Raleigh, North Carolina, and it's fabulous.
43:26And people are lining up to, to come get it too.
43:29Yeah, it's great.
43:30It's great.
43:30But I, but I do like that that's become this space that there's more room for everybody in and it's neat to watch it being celebrated here in the city.
43:39Well, you know, we have a writer named Robert Moss, who is our kind of lead barbecue columnist.
43:46And he just did a piece a little while ago about the Raleigh barbecue scene and how it really is, you know, becoming a kind of a barbecue hotspot in the country.
43:56And, you know, there are a lot of other places in North Carolina that have gotten all the attention over the years and, and deservedly so.
44:02But Raleigh has really come along on the, on the barbecue scene.
44:06Oh yeah.
44:07That's special.
44:08Yeah.
44:09Well, Ashley, I just have one more question for you.
44:11Sure.
44:12What does it mean to you to be Southern?
44:14It's a great question.
44:15Um, you know, I, I think again about my mother, who I think is this beautiful version of being Southern to me, um, this idea of being well-traveled, having lived in different places for her, but being born in the South.
44:31And I think about how she looks at food and how she may cook with all these influences of food from other places centered around, you know, what she's growing in her yard or that, uh, she's picked up from the farmer's market in her area.
44:49But this idea that being Southern is about where the things that grow in the place that you live and how your experiences over the course of your entire life, right to this very moment, inform and engage with the things that are special about the place you live.
45:12And it's a, it's a, it's an ever evolving, um, state of being and conversation and, um, much like cooking and all the, the many things I'm drawn to, it's never done.
45:26And it's never just one thing summed up in a sentence.
45:29It's, uh, it's something that's about what we bring to the place we call home and what, how that influences us.
45:38Yeah.
45:39What, what's your mom's name, by the way?
45:41Her name is Lynn Christensen.
45:43She kept my father's last name when they divorced because she wanted to have, uh, the same name as, as her kids, which I think is, is really lovely.
45:51Neither were, were ever married again.
45:54Um, and my mom, um, still, she's 77 years old.
45:59I just took her to Paris.
46:00We just took a really lovely trip.
46:03She, it was on her list.
46:05She hadn't been since she was 16 years old and we had the most amazing time.
46:09Um, but yep, she, as I mentioned, uh, she still lives in the house I grew up in and much like what it means to be Southern, uh, the experience of being there, visiting there continues to evolve as her and I, uh, grow and, and age and change, uh, and, and continue to celebrate this.
46:28What a, what a beautiful place this is to live.
46:31And do you get up to Kernersville very often?
46:33I go to, to see her and, and then also I stop when I'm on my way, um, to head to cook in the mountains or, you know, to, to, uh, head anywhere that has me crossing through there.
46:46And, uh, we cook a lot, love cooking with her.
46:50I love to cook for her and she, uh, she definitely loves for me to cook as well.
46:56Um, and it's, you know, that feels good to like, she, she cooked for us in our entire lives.
47:00And so it feels really good to take care of her.
47:02But there is this great little seafood joint there called Smitty's that, uh, we almost always, when I go and visit her, we almost always make time to, to go there and eat steamed seafood and, uh, just enjoy a laid back spot in the place I, it wasn't there when I was growing up.
47:20So it's neat to have something, uh, different and special from, from that time.
47:25Well, Ashley, it's great to see you and great to talk to you.
47:28And I am going to make it to pools in the not too distant future, not to mention all your other places, death and taxes.
47:36I've heard so many great things about, and so I'm going to, I'm going to make it happen.
47:40Um, but it's always, it's an honor to talk to you and to have you on the podcast.
47:43And, uh, thanks so much for being on biscuits and jam.
47:46I'm going to hold, hold you to showing up, but, uh, we'll keep practicing until then.
47:51It's wonderful to be here.
47:52Great to see you and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon.
47:56All right.
47:56Thanks, Ashley.
47:58Bye.