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00:00New Democrats received around 1.2 million votes.
00:03That is just 6.3 percent of the vote.
00:06This translated into the NDP losing 17 seats in the House of Commons.
00:11They managed to hold on to just seven seats.
00:14And one of those seven seats belongs to one of the remaining MPs.
00:17That's Heather McPherson, the first reelected NDP MP for the riding of Edmonton Strathcona.
00:22And Heather McPherson is going to join me now.
00:26Heather McPherson, it's good to see you.
00:27Thank you for being here.
00:28I know that was a disappointing result for you, your caucus, your leader, the other night.
00:34What message do you take from what happened?
00:36Well, yeah, it was a disappointing night.
00:38Of course it was for all of us.
00:40We had hoped to bring more New Democrats to Ottawa.
00:44And so, yeah, we were disappointed.
00:47That said, I think we all know that this election was very unique.
00:50It was an election that was based on fear.
00:53People were choosing to stop things from happening rather than to vote to build something.
00:58And frankly, sometimes that's not easy for any Democrats.
01:02You know, this was something where we heard time and time again from the Liberals, that
01:07same old playbook where they say, you know, we need you to vote for us to stop the scary
01:12Conservatives.
01:14And what happened in a lot of seats, certainly in my province, is that they got Conservatives
01:17and they split the vote.
01:18It's interesting, though, in places like here in Ontario, southwestern Ontario, you know,
01:22a lot of the NDP vote went blue, right?
01:25They abandoned sort of the party, traditionally associated with Labour, but went to a party that's
01:30been aggressively courting private sector union workers.
01:33I mean, what does that say to you about where the core constituency is for your party right
01:38now?
01:39If the Liberals can get a lot of urban progressives, but then the Conservatives can get sort of
01:43the working class trade union sort of voter?
01:46Oh, you know, I still believe that the New Democrats are, of course, the party for the working
01:52class. We are, of course, the party for workers. You know, it is true that with a ton of money
01:58and a lot of advertising, Pierre Polyev tried to cause play as a working man. And I think people
02:06are going to see through that. And that's not going to be the reality. And, you know, we are going
02:11to come back. We're going to be stronger. The New Democrats have seven of us going to
02:16Ottawa, and we wish there were a lot more. But those seven are some of the fiercest, strongest
02:20members of Parliament in the last Parliament. And we are going to hold the government to
02:25account. And we are going to show Canadians that what we need right now, more than ever,
02:31is a democratic party, a new democratic party that, you know, does hold the government responsible,
02:37that isn't just there to pick fights and make slogans and do rhyming, but is actually going
02:42to hold the government accountable to the promises that they made to Canadians.
02:46You're going to hold the government accountable, but without official party status, with the loss of
02:50your leader, without the leverage of the supply and confidence agreement. You know, what holds a
02:56minority government, I guess, to account is the threat of the Parliament falling and going to an
02:59election. I don't think there's any real appetite for that. So, I mean, how do you see that happening
03:04in this new Parliament when you won't even be guaranteed an opportunity to ask a question in
03:08question period every day or a seat on a committee?
03:10Yeah, I mean, David, listen, we've got our work set out for us, absolutely. But don't forget,
03:15there were 25 of us in the last Parliament, and we got dental care through. We got a pharmacare
03:21framework through. We got anti-scab legislation through. You know, we pushed the government to do
03:26so many things with 25. And absolutely, it's going to be a lot of work. But people don't become new
03:32Democrats because they're afraid of work. You know, we're fighters, and we're going to come back,
03:36and we're going to be there. And we're going to be in Ottawa. You know, we do have the balance of
03:42power. We do have the ability to make sure that the government is doing things for Canadians. I'm
03:46worried about Mark Carney. I'm worried about having a banker that maybe doesn't understand how difficult
03:52it is for Canadians right now, how difficult it is for them to afford housing, how difficult it is
03:57for them to afford groceries. And that's where new Democrats belong. That's why we need to be there.
04:01And, you know, Canadians don't want a two-party electoral system. We've seen how this has worked
04:07out in the United States, and it's terrible. It makes everyone divisive. It pushes people to the
04:12edges. What we need is parliamentarians that are willing to roll out their sleeves and get to work.
04:18And, you know, we need a three-party or multiple-party system in this country to have a strong democracy
04:24where there is collaboration, there is working together, there is getting things done for Canadians.
04:28That's what Canadians need. Right. But I mean, I appreciate your argument, but 85 percent voted
04:34for those two parties, if you add it all up. And in a reasonably high turnout election, I know there
04:38are circumstantial reasons for that, but a lot of working-class Canadians do seem to believe that
04:42either Pierre Polyev or Mark Carney does, even if they don't in their gut understand what they're
04:48going through, they trust them to find the solution, right? That's the message I take from this.
04:53So, like, why do you think they didn't look at Jagmeet Singh, who certainly has empathy and
04:58campaign with good humor, not as the solution? This is the problem. Like, the New Democrats got
05:04very much squeezed out because for some reason it wasn't the life raft people were looking for in
05:08this crisis. Well, and I think that that comes down to that thing where we talked about the fear
05:12election. You know, this is a Donald's Trump election. So we had liberals telling Canadians that they
05:17had to vote liberal so that they could keep out Pierre Polyev and deal with Donald Trump. And then
05:23we had other folks that were very, very worried about a fourth term for a liberal government that
05:29had seen their cost of living go up, had seen the cost of groceries go up, had seen, you know,
05:34no steps taken to protect the health care system, all of those pieces. So I think in this election,
05:40what we saw was people making those choices. I don't think it's a reality for the New Democratic
05:47Party going forward. I think we are going to rebuild as a party. You know, we've been in
05:51situations like this before. We will rebuild. We will come forward with propositions that Canadians
05:56can believe in. I'm excited. You know, honestly, we are going to have a leadership race and leadership
06:02races are a moment where the party can talk about the values that we have, where we can bring New
06:07Democrats from across the country together, where we can have some of those conversations and build
06:12that excitement that we need to have to start to rebuild our party. You know, we've got two jobs
06:18to do in Ottawa, this parliament. We have to hold the government accountable. We have to be a strong
06:23opposition and we have to get more New Democrats elected in the next parliament. Right. Well,
06:28your caucus needs to get together and figure out who the interim leader will be. And then you move on
06:31to the process of permanent leader. Do you want to be the permanent leader of the party? Will you run for
06:36the leadership? You know, our caucus is going to meet tomorrow. We're going to have some
06:39conversations. I, you know, I've heard from, from a number of different people about, that have asked
06:45me to consider it. And I, I haven't had time. I just haven't had the time to, to really, really think
06:50that through, to talk to my family, to, to talk to, talk to all of the people that I would need to speak
06:55to. So I can't answer that question right now. Okay. All right. Well, look, just, just one last
06:59question then. You know, there has been this duality of, of sort of the urban progressive cohort of the
07:05party and sort of that working class cohort of the party. Um, can the NDP stay in both of those
07:11lanes? I mean, do you need to sort of get back to more of a traditional class based party, uh,
07:15sort of what the NDP was or, you know, or do you need to steer more into these sort of left leaning
07:21progressive value set? I don't think we've ever left the, uh, you know, I don't think that that's
07:26ever changed. We've always been the party that's been trying to make life more affordable,
07:30make life better for Canadians. That's, but there's a tension between those two, there's a
07:34tension between those two issues at times, right. And between the, the, the focuses of what a working
07:38class voter wants and maybe what an urban, you know, sort of, uh, uh, progressive may be looking
07:43for, you know, from their leader. And, and, and do you need to recalibrate that balance? I wonder.
07:48I don't think so. You know, I think honestly, I think what we need to be focusing on right now,
07:52you know, I, I think about this a lot, but the election was on Monday night. Well, Tuesday morning,
07:57Canadians could still, you know, we're still struggling to buy groceries on Tuesday morning.
08:02There still was no rent protection for people in Alberta on Tuesday morning. You know, there was
08:07a housing, housing crisis and there was a threat of privatization in our healthcare system. So
08:12that's why new Democrats have to be there. And that's not a, an urban rural, that's not a,
08:17uh, you know, there's no divide there. That's what all Canadians need new Democrats to be fighting
08:21for. Okay. NDP MP, Heather McPherson. Thanks for being with us today. And congratulations on your
08:26re-election and good luck with the tough work ahead. Thanks so much. All right. That's NDP MP,
08:30Heather McPherson. We're going to go back to the panel. And Tim, guess what I'm starting with this
08:33time? It's going to be Jordan. No, it's not Tim. Uh, Jordan, um, you know, I, I know it's been a
08:39tough week, right? Like Mel Riche is, uh, you know, a panelist as well and a good friend. And she was
08:43with, uh, she was with Jagmeet Singh, uh, to the bitter end. And, you know, there's a lot of, uh,
08:47loss there though. He, he campaigned with great spirit, uh, right up until the bitter end was
08:51dignified in his speech on Monday night. But like, what the heck does the party need to do now?
08:56I know there's optimism about a rebuild, but that's not guaranteed just because it happened
09:00in the nineties. Yeah. I mean, look, the results are devastating and I, and, and I, I don't think
09:04it serves anybody to understate that, uh, to be shut out of, shut out of Ontario for the first time
09:09since the late nineties. Uh, this is a huge problem for the party. I think that, you know, it's correct
09:15to say that there are external factors that conditioned this election that were really unique. So the Trump
09:20factor and also Polyev as a, as a push factor for a lot of progressive voters, but we did lose votes
09:27to the conservatives, uh, particularly in key areas in Southwestern Ontario. And we have to look at why.
09:33And I think there are a few reasons for that. Those voters tend to be voters that are concerned
09:37with affordability issues, cost of living, things like housing, strong healthcare system. Those are
09:42issues that really resonate with them. Well, over the last couple of years, the conservatives were very
09:48successful in connecting with those voters. They spent a great deal of money to do that. They also
09:52spent a great deal of money to attack Jagmeet Singh and the NDP and undermine that connection with those
09:58billion bucks, right? Exactly. So I think that played a part in it. I mean, it is true to say that the NDP
10:04campaigned very much on those issues, but their megaphone was very small leading up to the election.
10:09They were not able to compete in paid media leading into the campaign, which left them at a real
10:13disadvantage. So part of it is making sure that it's very clear when the NDP speaks to working class
10:20voters, what their priorities are. And that does mean that there is sometimes some tension with those
10:26issues that excite the activist space, but confuse that message with those voters. And so that is going
10:31to have to be part of the party's conversation and rebuilding.
10:34But like, I have a question. Like Heather McPherson mentioned it there about rent and Jagmeet Singh was
10:38promising national rent control. You can't do that. Like you need the provinces to do that.
10:43Like that's a provincial issue, right?
10:44Okay, but David, like most voters are not walking around with a copy of the constitution to
10:47understand the separation of Congress.
10:48No, no, no, I understand that. But you, you know, if you're going to be credible in a pitch
10:50for government, you have to have issues you can implement, right?
10:53I think that the challenge was less specific policy issues. In fact, if you look at the polling,
10:57a lot of the policy issues and the things the NDP raised were resonating with voters.
11:01That wasn't why voters moved away. The reason that voters moved away is because they didn't view
11:06the NDP as a viable vehicle to stop Pierre Polyev or to deal with the affordability issues if they were more
11:12sort of NDP conservative switch voters. So those are the two challenges that the party has in front
11:17is addressing those. And absolutely vote splitting is a problem for the NDP. But the very best way for
11:24the NDP to defeat the strategic vote argument that the liberals advance every campaign is to get back
11:28in the business of winning the popular vote. So that is the thing that will make the party able to
11:33defeat those strategic vote arguments is becoming more electorally viable in all of those regions.
11:39Yeah. I mean, Shrel, this is the argument Brad Levine was making that the party needs to decide,
11:43do you want to just have balance of power, be a conscious or try to win like Jack Layton was intent
11:47on when they had their breakthrough in 2011?
11:50Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, there was a lot of talk about the external factors and all that.
11:55But I mean, Jagmeet Singh himself, he said that, you know, yeah, we could have gone to an election
12:00back when the Conservatives wanted it. But, you know, I put Canada first over the party.
12:04And, you know, during the campaign, when it, you know, things were obviously weren't looking great,
12:09he said, well, let's not give Mark Carney all the power. So it wasn't necessarily a firebrand pitch
12:15to people in terms of getting that popular vote in terms of getting that, you know, vote for us
12:20because we want to win, as opposed to let's do the most that we can in to hold the government to
12:26account and get people what they need. I do think that it was, you know, it was very commendable
12:31throughout the course of, you know, Jagmeet Singh's tenure. His push was always, let's help people.
12:38And I'm not necessarily here to say I'm going to be prime minister all the time.
12:42That's not always the message that he was giving. But I want to do what I can and use the power that I
12:47have to get people the help that they need. And they did that. And they're right. Yes, they had 25 MPs
12:52and they did and they got, you know, really important gains for people, but they weren't able to
12:57capitalize on it. And now, yes, they can do the work in terms of, you know, having the balance of
13:04power, helping liberals get things over the line by pushing their own agenda. But without official
13:10party status, that's going to be a lot more difficult. You don't have the financial resources.
13:15You don't have the seats on committees. You're basically there on everybody else's good graces
13:20of getting them to allow you to speak or allow you to put forward, you know, amendments and things on
13:26bills and committees and those types of things. So there are lots of like procedural things that
13:31are going to make it a lot more difficult without having such a small group. I'm not saying that
13:37they're not competent because they are incredibly competent people who were elected, but it is going
13:41to be that much more difficult.
13:43Yeah, there's a sort of like a tragic irony in all of this, Carleen. Like, you know, Cheryl Oates and
13:48Nan McGrath have made the point on the show that, you know, Jagmeet Singh, if you just look at the
13:52seven seats, like you look at the political defeat here, but on a policy front, very consequential
13:57in those, getting the implementation of those programs in the Supply and Confidence Agreement.
14:02But, you know, they kept the liberals alive long enough for them to reorganize and rebuild and
14:08then ultimately, you know, push them down to this level by winning this election. Because Mr. Singh was right
14:13in his diagnosis that if he had given Pierre Pali of the election when he wanted it, it was going to be
14:18a commanding conservative majority.
14:19It sure was. And look, I mean, I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for where the NDP sit. I remember
14:25sitting on shows just like this in the time following 2011 when the Liberal Party was reduced
14:31to third party in that election when Harper got his majority and people were openly questioning
14:36whether the Liberal Party would fall apart.
14:38You were gone forever, never to come back.
14:40Never to come back.
14:40Four governments later.
14:41So I'm here to say to my NDP friends, there is hope and there will be a true tomorrow.
14:47But in all seriousness, I do think the challenges are real. Sometimes having a real moment like
14:53this, though, can be the catalyst to take a harder look at the changes that might need to
15:00be made than you might otherwise if you were just facing a smaller setback. Sort of that idea
15:05that you need to burn it down to be able to build it all back up again. There's another
15:09administrative difficulty, too, that I think is interesting. Just looking at the initial Elections
15:14Canada results on their website earlier today, I noticed that there were a lot of NDP candidates
15:21who failed to meet that 10 percent threshold that Elections Canada requires in order to
15:25get the Elections Canada rebate.
15:28And that is worth a ton of money. I think there was something like 80 percent of the candidates
15:32failed to reach that threshold.
15:33I hadn't looked at that. That's a very good point.
15:35That can be like two, three, four million bucks of money. And that financial challenge
15:41could also present a challenge to the party in terms of its ability to actually hold the
15:47Liberal government to account. So it's not a clear path.
15:51Yeah, especially since they often remortgage the Jack Layton bill to help pay for elections.
15:55So Jordan, you wanted to jump in there.
15:56Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, I think one of the other important pieces of context
16:00for this, and particularly when we're talking about those blue-orange voters in southwestern
16:04Ontario, is, you know, the federal Conservatives don't have the same relationship with organized
16:11labor that the provincial PCs do. So it's not a one-to-one on that.
16:16The provincial Conservatives have really invested a lot of time and a lot of resources in courting
16:20certain large private sector unions. That is not the case federally. The federal Conservatives
16:25did not receive any large endorsements from major private sector unions. And the other
16:30thing to point out, too, is that for the NDP provincially, they still hold all those seats,
16:34right? London, Windsor, Hamilton, you have Niagara. So there is, there are strong roots there for the
16:41party to fall back on. And I think that there's going to be important conversations, not just in
16:45Ontario, but across the country with those provincial sections where they are in official
16:50opposition, in government. They are competing and winning in those elections, and there's a lot to be
16:54learned there.
16:54Yeah, Tim, I don't know what to make of the value of union endorsements. I'm not, I'm not an anti-union guy.
16:59I mean the union myself. But like, there's what the union leadership says, and then there's what
17:03the union membership does, right? Like Lana Payne was with Mark Carney and Zona's advisory council.
17:08The auto belt went blue. You know what I mean? And Unifor represents so much of the workers on
17:12there.
17:12So I don't know what I mean.
17:13You're asking me this, Jordan. I'm still mad at Jordan over the whole tax havens
17:15argument. So I'm going to give you a really good, I don't think, joking aside, endorsements
17:21don't really mean much anymore in anything. It's like the old days, oh, such and such a
17:25paper endorsed us. Oh, that must mean we will win. That doesn't matter anymore. What matters
17:30is whether people who give you those endorsements lend their, their, their people and their,
17:34their labor and their money and their time.
17:36But, but I would just say the NDP and conservatives are similar in this approach is that they both
17:42need to know what it is they are representing and who they appeal to. The challenge is more
17:47acute for the NDP right now, but the reality is Canada needs an NDP. It needs that third
17:55voice because there is a space as has been proven at different levels out there. But the NDP
18:00has a bigger challenge than the conservatives. Now that isn't the seven or eight seats they
18:04have. It's how are we, what is it we want to sell to people? Sherelle makes a good argument
18:10as Mr. Singh did about we're there to help people. Well, guess what? You can help more people if
18:14you're in power and you do that, but there is still a large chunk of the NDP that Jordan knows better
18:20than I that are okay with being the conscience. I think you live in an era though, particularly with
18:24young voters where they want the conscience and they want the outcome. And until the NDP
18:29find a way of delivering that and using language, much like Mr. Polyev has used to connect with
18:35young people around their affordability issues, the NDP need the language that connects with
18:40affordability and conscience. Mr. Singh was a good communicator, but I don't think he had that
18:46had that etymology with him. Okay. We got to let the etymology be the last word here because we
18:53got to take a break. So I think the power panel, Carleen Bryant, Tim Powers, Jordan Liknitz and Sherelle Evelyn.
19:06You