EU/UK demand Russia surrender w/ Ian Proud
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00:00:00all right we are live with alexander mackers in london and we are joined once again on the duran
00:00:09with uh ian proud great to have you with us once again ian before we get started where is the best
00:00:15place for people to follow your work please follow me on the peacemonger which is my sub stack why
00:00:23talk often in vain it seems at times about the need to kind of bring peace in ukraine and
00:00:27in other places and uh on my website prouddiplomat.com i have got those links down below to
00:00:34the sub stack to the website i also have the link for um ian's x account as well puts out a lot of
00:00:41great posts on on x so before we get started ian alexander let's just say a quick hello to everyone
00:00:47that is watching us on odyssey on rockfin on rumble on youtube and of course on our locals
00:00:56page the duran.locals.com great to have you with us and a quick shout out to our moderators as well
00:01:05zariel in the house i believe i saw peter somewhere in there as well so uh those are our moderators
00:01:15thank you for everything that you do alexander ian let's talk about what is going on in uh with project
00:01:22ukraine with ukraine with the uk and with the eu and all of these peace plans and these ceasefire
00:01:27plans indeed let's do so no one better to discuss these with than with the peacemonger with in proud
00:01:34and can i actually push back a little about the point you made about this that this is sometimes a
00:01:41very difficult thing and it doesn't seem as if we're making any progress in getting this idea of a
00:01:47negotiated solution moving forward just go back to where we were this time last year to the kind of
00:01:54rhetoric and the discussions that were happening then we are in a completely different diplomatic
00:02:01media universe now there's clearly a great deal of exasperation and anger on the part of all sorts of
00:02:07people that there's even talk about peace and peace settlements and negotiations and ceasefires and all
00:02:14those sorts of things one gets the very strong impression that there's an awful lot of people
00:02:20who would rather that we were not talking about those things but the the fact is we are talking
00:02:26about these things we're talking about these things all the time and i'm sure that you are you know
00:02:33familiar with the comp you know with the history of conflicts as i am um when a war begins it's very very
00:02:41difficult to end sometimes getting a negotiation underway a serious negotiation underway to end it
00:02:49can be a protracted and complex issue but the fact is something has started
00:02:57and we ought to be grateful for that and it might come eventually to an end point the war might come to
00:03:06an end point and the negotiation might reach some kind of agreement and this churn that we're seeing up
00:03:14up to now in my opinion is historical terms not that unusual so that's the first thing i wanted to say
00:03:21now last week we had two proposals for what looked like framework um uh proposals to move forward to discuss
00:03:32a way towards peace one was an american proposal which was taken presented as a take it or leave it
00:03:43proposal i think we're all starting to have doubts about whether it really is a take it or leave it
00:03:49proposal but it did it seems to me show a certain shift in the american position um it begins to address
00:04:00some of the issues that might eventually lead us to a settlement there was another proposal which
00:04:07came from europe there were overlaps between the two but i have to say that the european proposal
00:04:14um filled me with grave misgivings um caused me very very deep concern uh it is inconceivable to my mind that
00:04:24that that proposal could be accepted by the other side by the russians at all and i worry that the
00:04:34mere fact that proposals like that are still circulating is inevitably going to be noted in
00:04:41moscow and it's going to make them even more suspicious of the american proposal than they probably would
00:04:48any way be and is likely to lead to a hardening of the russian position so that that is my concern
00:04:57that's the sort of topic i want to discuss in this program today but perhaps if you could just put
00:05:02forward your own thoughts first and then we can perhaps delve a little bit more into the detail in
00:05:07the next 40 45 minutes that we might thanks alexander i certainly agree with what you said at the top
00:05:14there has been a massive change not just really in terms of the tone and posture of talks since the
00:05:21war began but actually since 2014 for the first time the americans have really embraced the idea of
00:05:27having dialogue with with russia which in itself is a huge change now of course europe is nowhere near
00:05:34close to catching up with that but nevertheless that's had seismic implications for the speed and the
00:05:41momentum behind efforts to actually bring the war to a close that's the first thing i completely agree
00:05:46with you on that point on the plans i think what has been interesting for me and you noted this was
00:05:54the sense that there has been some movement albeit slight movement on the european and the ukrainian side
00:06:00you know towards uh the facts on the ground you know in terms of the starting point for longer term
00:06:06peace process the first is to accept the line of control at the point of which the fighting stops
00:06:12as a basis you know for future talks i mean that is in itself a huge shift it was only a few weeks ago
00:06:19that the kind of european commission um first representative was saying that you know ukraine
00:06:24should push russia out to its 1991 borders you know as a requirement for sanctions to be lifted that's
00:06:32first thing second there's an acceptance that nato is off the table and think uh you know that is now
00:06:38kind of accepted if not sort of wholeheartedly included by the european side and i think also
00:06:42by the ukrainian side you know these are two kind of big uh deals all of the rest there's a lot of
00:06:48texture in the other in the other kind of uh issues remaining including some child uh uh ukrainian
00:06:54children you know and so on and so forth but the the biggies which i think you allude to are the
00:07:00the sticking points from the russian side on the economic side this idea that there should be
00:07:04absolutely no sanctions move indeed there should be harsher sanctions you know in return for peace
00:07:10which is a completely ludicrous idea and will only sort of uh embolden you know president putin
00:07:16uh to keep uh to keep fighting so that's that's a big one and the security guarantees this idea that
00:07:22kind of ukraine should be militarized and have nato light style sort of guarantees from basically nato
00:07:30countries that clearly also isn't going to isn't going to kind of wash with russia but there has
00:07:35been movement and i think actually if i close here you know what trump's you know this is my last gasp
00:07:41offer i think that's just part of the his maneuvering that's part of how he kind of does still making so
00:07:46putting maximum pressure on the ukrainian europeans in particular to settle and i think that's where we are
00:07:52you know right now you think we what would you think we're going to see the europeans move further
00:07:58because at the moment they don't seem to be happy about the entire peace process at all and that
00:08:06picks the question why why is that this enormous reluctance in europe to resolve this crisis why is
00:08:14there all this debate all the time about you know carrying on somehow without the americans which
00:08:20anybody who looks at this situation objectively knows that is impossible i mean that is an absolute
00:08:27guarantee of failure and of defeat eventually so so why do we get this rhetoric it why not you know
00:08:37acknowledge properly that the americans do want to see this war end and wish what we really need to
00:08:46do is accept the fact and get behind them is it because we're over invested in the previous um policy
00:08:54or is it and i say this frankly is it because far too many of our leaders seem to me to be living inside
00:09:01a historical novel of 1938 in which they all play particular roles in it you know taken from that novel
00:09:09and they can't just um give all that up i mean what is the problem why are we so hostile to some kind
00:09:16of resolution of this conflict which will stabilize the situation in europe and deliver peace and that
00:09:24allow our economies perhaps to begin to recover from the many problems we have so i'm not sure about
00:09:30a novel but i certainly think some are living in a fantasy land that's clear i think there are three
00:09:36things you know first people are trying to position trump as some sort of global sort of far-right
00:09:42aberration who will disappear in time and we just need to kind of weather that that storm i think it's
00:09:47totally deluded you know quite frankly because the world is shifting multi-polar and even though i don't
00:09:53agree with trump's trade policies he's kind of in his own peculiar way embracing that that's the first thing
00:10:00you know the the second thing and you alluded to this is kind of people are invested in in in the war
00:10:05and actually what that means is that um to to fail and to be seen to have failed which is going to
00:10:12happen you know when the war comes to an end european and actually sort of biden's u.s policy
00:10:17will be seen to to have failed people need to reposition and repackage what's been a completely
00:10:24wasteful um you know project that has cost over a million lives through deaths and injury you know since
00:10:30the war began prompting the rapid de-industrialization of europe with consequences for ordinary citizens so
00:10:37people have to deal with that you know when war comes to an end we failed and you suffered and
00:10:43that is a hard package and the third thing of course is that then you know you have this disgruntled
00:10:49failed state in terms of ukraine that suddenly wants turbocharged access to european union membership
00:10:57which european members can't afford to give them because they're spending their money now on the
00:11:01armament of a strategic threat that doesn't really exist so you know it's a whole package of pain
00:11:08quite frankly for european leaders but they just need to kind of you know swallow that what is going
00:11:13to be an extremely bitter pill which i believe will have domestic political ramifications in in
00:11:20countries like france and germany in particular but also of course central europe you know for many years to come
00:11:26why this why this obsession was sending troops to ukraine which our prime minister in britain has
00:11:34i mean first of all what is that supposed to achieve even i mean i'm still not clear what the objective
00:11:42is what what it's exactly supposed to do is it a tripwire force is it a retraining force that it has
00:11:50been scaled scaled down to is it a deterrent force a deterrent force which is more likely i would have
00:11:56thought to be provocative is it intended to complicate and wreck the negotiations is it an attempt to try and
00:12:05make britain and france look more important and engaged in this process than they really are i mean
00:12:13what is this why why are we seeing this debate even happen i get the sense that many people in the army
00:12:22the british military especially are frankly extremely skeptical about this idea altogether you see all
00:12:28these articles appearing in all kinds of places which look to me to reflect that concern so why is our
00:12:35why are we so focused on these things that can only complicate the course towards a negotiation rather
00:12:43than you know putting all that aside surely what we ought to be doing is working in harness with the
00:12:48americans not constantly you know putting up our own proposals and acting if you like in sort of right
00:12:58angles to them well collectively there are 1.4 million troops at arms in ukraine from both forces
00:13:08you know right now the idea that 10 000 even 20 000 i don't think the uk could deliver up 20 000 troops
00:13:14you know is going to make a difference i think part of this is about sort of you know trying to
00:13:19confirm to ourselves in britain that we really do still we really are still a global strategic military
00:13:25power which we are not we've just sent half of our fleet literally four ships is almost half of our
00:13:32seaworthy fleet on an eight-month tour to the indo-pacific you know the idea that that we we're still this
00:13:39great military power something that we cling to using now to like the 2.5 percent uplift in
00:13:44in defense spending that that is completely ridiculous but very much plays to the domestic
00:13:50political constituency in britain right now which kind of loves a good war having pulled out of
00:13:55afghanistan which is our only real reason only purpose for military engagement worldwide
00:14:00hitherto and secondly it's about gruntling zielinski it's about saying well we really are on your side and
00:14:08even though it's obviously unworkable you know we'll pursue these harebrained ideas including
00:14:14some you know when it comes down to it meaningless uh tripwire force reassurance force whatever you
00:14:19want to call it a military force which russia will see as a nato force and which will disincentivize
00:14:25russia from seeing for peace so you know but for both reasons actually it's just not a good idea
00:14:32and actually as part of that reckoning that i alluded to earlier when our policy in ukraine fails and is seen to
00:14:38fail you know britain needs to come to a reckoning with our military role in the world as a much
00:14:43reduced military power despite an exorbitant increase in our spending you know on defense
00:14:50i i there was a very good article that you posted on your substack blog about the fact that zielinski gets
00:14:55invited to all these meetings and of course he comes with his own ideas and frankly it seemed to me
00:15:04me and exactly as you've i think said somewhere that this proposal that the europeans put forward
00:15:13has ukrainian fingerprints in lots of parts of it i mean there are lots of ideas there that you can see
00:15:20must be coming from the ukrainians isn't it time when instead of encouraging the ukrainians in the way
00:15:30that we seem to be doing we had a frank and honest discussion with them and explain to them very clearly
00:15:39and very simply the americans have reached their limits if they've reached their limits we've reached
00:15:49how have we we've reached ours we can't do more um you've got a you've got a peace proposal from the
00:15:57americans what you need to be doing at this time is to getting completely behind it because that's really
00:16:04your only way forward now i mean i i haven't seen that discussion take place but isn't that what we
00:16:10should be doing if if our prime minister if the french president if the european commission president
00:16:17were to say that to zelensky he might he might pay attention um at the moment he seems to think that
00:16:25we're saying one thing the americans explain something else that he can somehow maneuver and dark and
00:16:31weave between the two and can still move forward with whatever plan he has every time you see zelensky
00:16:39on the tv uh now he seems increasingly dictatorial with his kind of really violent hand movements and
00:16:44body language i'm not sure if you've kind of noticed that it's certainly glaring you know from my
00:16:50perspective look that conversation is a conversation we should have been having with parashenka in 2015
00:16:55actually and that we we've avoided having with ukrainians since that time and now what that
00:17:00conversation means is that we lied to you you know we said we'd support you for as long as it takes
00:17:06it took too long and now the americans are leaving and actually we don't have the money or the political
00:17:11constituent constituencies just keep going you know adding for an item i think that that's a conversation that
00:17:17nobody wants to to have but they need to have actually and i think the longer this goes on the graver the domestic
00:17:24political consequences for you know all of these you know countries and actually the the the big
00:17:30missing piece in this conversation everything that we've discussed you know until now is russia and one
00:17:36of the things that came out of the steve wikoff meeting with the president putin you know last week was
00:17:41ushakov's uh statements that they're really productive discussions on the idea of bilateral russia to ukraine
00:17:49talks now this will only be solved when the russian and the ukrainian sides get together this ultimately
00:17:55isn't about what the europeans what their plan is it isn't even about you know what trump's plan is
00:18:01although i i'm completely aligned with where he is on nato membership and all those things i'm completely
00:18:06aligned this comes down to actually russia and ukraine talking to each other and as we know zielinski has made
00:18:12that illegal so you know this is kind of the real crunch point now at what point is zielinski going
00:18:19to fold and say well actually yes we do need to talk directly to russia i maybe need to talk directly
00:18:24to vladimir putin and what does that mean for him domestically in ukraine itself i mean can i just say i
00:18:30mean yes we lied to the ukrainians before but if we don't have that conversation what it means is we're just
00:18:39going to continue lying to them that that that is at least worse positions so i mean you know there has
00:18:46to be a point where this has to stop and i was actually going i mean you anticipated me because
00:18:51um the russians are now clearly saying this is the moment when we have to move beyond uh the us talking
00:19:00to the americans we have to actually sit down and talk with the ukrainians themselves and i think the
00:19:06americans are fully on board with this by the way that's absolutely my own impression so why
00:19:14isn't that happening i mean what is the objection both from the ukrainian side and from the european
00:19:23side why do we not want the ukrainians and the russians to talk with each other because it seems to
00:19:28be ceasefires by the way i mean absolutely wonderful things but the most logical way to agree a ceasefire
00:19:34is by the two parties that are actually fighting coming to the point when they agree it between
00:19:40them i mean that that's how ceasefires in most conflicts are negotiated but what what is this
00:19:48objection to direct negotiations between russia and ukraine why are we insisting on a ceasefire
00:19:56before negotiations even begin again i don't think this is the usual pattern in conflicts you you meet
00:20:06you talk you agree a ceasefire you then move on and you discuss more substantive issues
00:20:14well indeed that was what happened in march 20 22 of course as we all recall and the europeans have
00:20:22have demonized the notion of having any direct dialogue with president putin since 2014 i keep
00:20:28reiterating this point this is not a new blockage you know that we face what is different is that
00:20:34trump has completely unblocked that and we're not ready to do that you know yet ultimately the ukrainians
00:20:40and the russians under turkish moderation were able together to come up with the framework for a longer
00:20:46term peace process that kicked down the road issues around the states of crimea at that time before
00:20:51russia laid legal claim to the war plus and all the rest of it they were capable of hammering out you
00:20:57know the framework of a longer term a process that looked to the extent that it was fully acceptable to
00:21:03either side workable for for both sides at that time and they need to get back to the hard yards of
00:21:09doing that you know once more recognizing that actually the circumstances and the conditions
00:21:15on the ukrainian side may be less favorable now frankly than they were in march 2022 and that's
00:21:20another reason why for zelinski having made it illegal to talk directly to uh to the russians you
00:21:26know that's that's a difficult one for him to move on from because that's essentially political suicide
00:21:31now you know it's that honest conversation again european leaders getting behind trump saying well
00:21:36actually now we do need to get down to the business of actually sitting down with the russians even if you
00:21:40and peter don't actually meet directly to hammer out some sort of a deal because that is the only
00:21:45way to end this direct bilateral negotiations between the warring parties which is as i said
00:21:52how wars generally generally end um what else can we do to get this process going i mean should we go
00:22:03public why don't we speak to the russians ourselves just a few weeks ago i remember that there was an
00:22:11argument at one of the endless meetings that have happened between sanchez the spanish prime minister
00:22:18and the other european leaders about appointing a european representative to conduct dialogue directly
00:22:26with the russians i've not heard anything about that since i've never heard of any appointment to such
00:22:32a person isn't that an obvious thing to do shouldn't we appoint someone shouldn't that person be going to
00:22:39moscow just as witgov is going to moscow i mean talking to the russians i mean one of the obvious
00:22:45things i would have thought in negotiations this is something that i should say i've been involved in many
00:22:50negotiations it's just the russians who are advancing i mean what we need to do is to find a formula
00:22:57where they decide that it is to their advantage to stop that means talking to them to find out what
00:23:06it is they want from us that might induce them to stop doesn't mean you know we accept it but at least
00:23:14it provides us with an understanding of what they're thinking why don't we do that surely now that the americans
00:23:21are talking to the russians we should be talking to the russians also why doesn't david lammy go to
00:23:28moscow i mean you know i just just uh a suggestion but if david lammy can't go maybe as i said we
00:23:35appoint a european representative maybe mr sanchez and he can go well it was actually going to be macron
00:23:43macron was the person who was nominated for that role and actually he was one of the only people who
00:23:48was talking to putin if you remember that terrible scene on the extremely long you know table you
00:23:54know in in the coming and that's absolutely right i mean they should but in any case i think it's
00:23:59childish this notion that only one european leader you know could be the one who talks to putin i mean
00:24:04what why can't they all you know i mean i know uh the hungarian foreign minister has been to moscow quite
00:24:09recently to talk about energy uh links and that and that sort of thing you know we've demonized
00:24:15dialogue uh to such an extent that we're even talking about which european head of state or head
00:24:21of government should be the one you know who goes trembling and cowering to moscow to talk to the
00:24:26terrifying vladimir putin it's quite it's quite ridiculous we need that dialogue but in terms of
00:24:31the specifics maybe maybe we do need a minsk three this instead of being germany in france and ukraine and
00:24:37russia is the usa in france and ukraine you know and russia with russia and ukraine you know doing
00:24:43the negotiations and the americans and the french and possibly even the chinese you know they're to
00:24:49kind of be there to moderate and support you know maybe that's the format the back and forth the
00:24:54shuttle of who's going to go to moscow you know today oh gosh hadn't been for 10 years i mean it's quite
00:24:59ridiculous you know if there's going to be some sort of role for the europeans to play you know let's be
00:25:04clear about what it is let's actually have a format of dialogue that brings them in with the americans
00:25:09and possibly with another you know bricks uh you know third party with russia and ukraine i think
00:25:14that might be a sensible way forward i mean it's it's it's hardly mentioned ever but the chinese
00:25:20actually have a peace envoy who's supposed to be brokering peace between ukraine and russia his name
00:25:26is lee kui and he's visited both kiev and moscow many many times he gets on with the russians he
00:25:33doesn't get on so well unsurprisingly maybe with the ukrainians but why don't we meet with him
00:25:40i mean obviously the americans have their own issues with the americans at the present time but we are
00:25:47talking about um china very often as a country that has influence in moscow which he probably does
00:25:55why don't we actually get in touch with and speak to their peace envoy i remember he was traveling around
00:26:02european capitals at one time and they didn't seem to be keen to meet him at all as i remember is it
00:26:09again this idea that you know china shouldn't really involve itself in european problems just asking yeah
00:26:16well as i said i mean i think we should involve china in a sort of peace dialogue with russia and ukraine
00:26:21with the us and maybe with with france or another kind of european country that that makes complete sense
00:26:26but i mean the european states are so completely aligned with you know with ukraine that unable to
00:26:32play an impartial mediating role which is actually the role that trump is now positioning the united
00:26:37states to play which is the role that kind of china has been trying to play without any success
00:26:41unfortunately you know for for some months you know now so it's whether you you know europe itself can
00:26:48can play that mediating role it simply cannot with people like kaya callas you know by running the
00:26:54conform policy it can't with ursula von der lion you know so that they're not the right people in any
00:27:00case unelected you know representatives so i mean who's it going to be and actually are they going to do
00:27:06that in good faith seeking a genuine mediatory role that looks to kind of bring the conflict to an end
00:27:13that's the big question that's something that the macron is all this kind of pontification is kind of
00:27:19not really uh getting to the heart of he's not having been nominated into this bizarre european role
00:27:26as their spokesperson i've seen him do nothing uh frankly in this role since that time absolutely i
00:27:33mean that that's what i was going to say i mean and i i personally from what i've heard i mean the russians
00:27:40on keen on macron anyway i mean they've had many dealings with him but can i ask about something
00:27:45else because how united is europe actually because you mentioned um uh see peter seattle the hungarian
00:27:55foreign minister he's been to moscow um um feed so is going from slovakia is going to moscow uh for the
00:28:04may 9th of may parade but in some ways you could argue these are the perennial dissidents
00:28:11but do you get the feeling which i certainly do that anyway there is a fraction now starting
00:28:18that more and more european countries are quietly becoming increasingly disillusioned and doubtful
00:28:24about this whole process and the fact that there is this core group of germany france and britain
00:28:32britain of course isn't in the eu but through all intents and purposes on this issue is part of the
00:28:38group who are running the policy it's not going to be sustainable because other european countries
00:28:46beyond a certain point are going to start to push back and start to say this is we have we have indeed
00:28:54reached our limits and we really do need peace and we can't continue with this any longer and that we
00:29:01could actually have a split in europe if this stance is maintained for much longer well i think there's
00:29:10increasing disillusionment within central europe but the european project itself and actually you also
00:29:16see that in france and in germany with the continued vice of the afd even after the uh elections were
00:29:23recently concluded with a bizarre interference in vermania's elections with with austria kind of
00:29:30really kind of slowly more closely aligning with central european uh states with even sort of places
00:29:37like croatia you know uh and so on and actually serbia the kind of the maneuvers it's going through about
00:29:44it's kind of frankly never ending it probably never will end you know european accession process
00:29:50and all these things and people are starting to question well what what is the point of the european
00:29:55project it was this open sort of economic community that was intended to kind of break down barriers
00:30:00and and create a sort of unified uh european community of peoples not unelected institutions
00:30:07but that doesn't seem to be the purpose that it's serving now the purpose serving now is increasing
00:30:13militarism and antagonistic relations with its biggest kind of uh nuclear armed neighbor which
00:30:19is russia so i think that that disillusionment is really about the european uh you know project itself
00:30:25uh you know possibly less so about uh you know the ukraine war where you know the blob consensus is
00:30:31still kind of remarkably durable but we'll see in june when the sanctions come for you know a big
00:30:37rollover moment european sanctions against russia if there's any ceasefire that happens before then
00:30:43you know which will be the the first uh european country to break ranks on consensus and break the
00:30:49sanctions uh hazard cards you know crashing down because it'll only take one country to do that and
00:30:55if uh if there is some ceasefire if the us does offer sanctions relief then you can be sure that pizza or
00:31:00oil ban or somebody like that will want to you know follow suit in some way i mean this is one of
00:31:07the strangest things of all the americans are talking about sanctions relief and as you said at the
00:31:12start of the program some people in europe are talking about strengthening sanctions even further
00:31:18i mean how can one enforce european sanctions at the same time that the americans are relaxing theirs
00:31:27i mean it makes absolutely no sense to me i mean surely the two the one will undermine the other if
00:31:34the americans are relaxing or even lifting sanctions we are not going to be able to enforce
00:31:41sanctions that we impose by ourselves all we will be doing is causing further problems
00:31:49for the european economy which at that point is going to start looking increasingly isolated
00:31:56or so it seems to me well sanctions long ago past the point of diminishing marginal returns actually
00:32:02many years ago arguably even before the war war started so i mean the the point is having uh more
00:32:09sanctions will actually hurt europe more than you know they hurt russia but we're so invested in sanctions
00:32:15as an end as a means rather than an end that actually that that that point seems to be lost on european
00:32:21uh decision makers you know the the idea that kind of the u.s can lift and europe europe can stick is
00:32:29is um quite bizarre but but but the main point is that sanctions aren't working and actually sanctions
00:32:35if they have a purpose is to incentivize russian behavior uh and and concessions all sanctions have
00:32:42done have emboldened russia you know to act and imposing further sanctions will disincentivize
00:32:49any uh motivation for russia to kind of reach compromise on the battlefield at a time when
00:32:54they still have by some considerable margin you know the upper hand yeah um
00:33:01on the question of the european fracture i mean you mentioned central europe now both um alex and i are
00:33:08from southern europe if you like um from southeastern europe from the greek world but again speaking about
00:33:15attitudes in southern europe i'm going to just quickly say in my opinion they've always been much
00:33:20more skeptical about this whole policy towards russia than you find in northern europe and i understand
00:33:27that in italy now the debate is moving much further and um it seems to me the italian government
00:33:34is taking very tentative steps away from what might be called the european consensus
00:33:44just just just to say anyway let's know that that is true and the italians are always the most dovish
00:33:51so the italians always the most dovish one of the most dovish including with the spanish you know back in
00:33:562014 when the sanctions were first imposed you know you and i both talked about matteo renzi you
00:34:01know seeing matteo renzi in st petersburg the international economic forum in 2016 and you know the sort
00:34:07of uh the the massive trade promotion effort that italy put into that event after the sanctions sanctions
00:34:13regime had been in place you know for two years but nevertheless you know the european consensus still
00:34:18held you know while so i think the southern europeans have always had a more sort of carefree attitude
00:34:24while sanctions but will still trade with russia you know that that doesn't mean that they will
00:34:29necessarily break consensus on sanctions but i think actually the risk is much greater in central europe
00:34:34yeah um what about the russians they are they are advancing um why would they want
00:34:44a negotiated solution especially given the fact that there is a great deal of mistrust in russia of
00:34:53the whole diplomatic process as it has played out in the past i mean this is something i think people
00:34:58need to recognize in uh the west but you know there is that caution and that mistrust in moscow of
00:35:10that i've no doubt which is very very strong and you you find it on all the you know usual telegram
00:35:17channels that we all read it's clearly there but why would the russians want a negotiated end to the
00:35:23war put aside the humanitarian issue about the fact that they're losing lots of people which no doubt
00:35:29does play a role but they're winning they uh sense that sanctions um have played out their most important
00:35:38effect um why would they settle for less than they could why would they settle for less than an outright
00:35:47victory but what is the attraction for them in doing so well i think russia's core demands have always been
00:35:56clear and the first of those obviously around uh you know making making ukraine a neutral country removing its
00:36:02nature aspirations destroying rights for you know people with minority languages including the russian
00:36:09language and that sort of thing that the list of issues has got more complicated as the war's
00:36:13dragged on for three years including the four of lessons and so on but i've always felt that actually
00:36:18if those those key kind of preconditions those underlying causes that the russians often talk about
00:36:24are addressed and they need to be addressed the native issue and so on then actually that would incentivize
00:36:29them to uh sort of settle you know wherever you know the fighting is when when the gunfire when the
00:36:36gunfire stops there are issues around that about sanctions as well you know they would want to be
00:36:41sure that actually you know to incentivize them to stop there would need to be some plan that sanctions be
00:36:47removed over time the problem that we have today is that actually we're saying well stop fighting and
00:36:52will impose even greater penalties on you and clearly that was never going to persuade the russians to
00:36:58settle that'll only ever incentivize them to keep fighting but i believe that actually and trump seems
00:37:04to have a much clearer focus on this there needs to be a plan for sanctions removal nato has to be taken
00:37:10off the table lots of other detailed things to to be discussed but if we address those core issues
00:37:16you know first and foremost i believe russia would be willing to settle is that what the russians mean when
00:37:22they talk about the root causes of the war that they're talking about these core issues that have been
00:37:28there for them all the time and um what sort of guarantees would they um seek that once those core
00:37:38issues are addressed they're not going to be revisited again because of course we're talking about nato
00:37:44membership i mean nato uh membership for ukraine was not something that ukraine initially sought its
00:37:53constitution its post-independence constitution spoke about ukraine being a neutral country the russians
00:38:01always say that they were promised that nato would not be extended and certainly they didn't i think in
00:38:08the early 90s think that ukraine would be brought into nato what what guarantees would they be seeking
00:38:15that whatever we agreed now would not be changed in the future or would it be the case that after
00:38:23the disaster we've just experienced that nobody in the west would have any appetite to revisit this
00:38:29whole issue by going back on what was agreed before i mean just unscramble that a little if i can ask
00:38:36there's a lot of texture around you know how nato confirms that it won't join um how ukraine confirms that
00:38:43won't join nato at some point in the future it can't clearly just be some verbal thing maybe it's
00:38:49some sort of constitutional uh you know change in ukraine that would be extremely painful as we all
00:38:54know some assurance that well for as long as trump's in power you know ukraine won't be able to join nato
00:39:00i don't think as you suggest that's really going to cut it with president putin he wants a cast iron
00:39:05guarantee the russians always tend to be quite so legalistic they want treaty-based sort of commitments and
00:39:11that sort of thing so i mean that you know how it happens what the nuance is around that is going
00:39:17to take a lot of detailed work but it will require some i think firm uh sort of legally binding a
00:39:23commitment that this won't happen in the future that's my sense of what the russians will will ask
00:39:28of this what that ultimately comes out looking like remains you know to be seen but i mean my view on
00:39:33this continues to be that actually we're you know we should be thinking beyond the purely military clearly
00:39:40you know nato taking off the table is a very big precondition you know from the russian side but
00:39:45there's the economic side too if we are genuinely re-engaging reopening sort of borders uh you know
00:39:50with russia and with ukraine and between ukraine and with russia over the much longer term of course
00:39:56then actually the conditions should not in the future rise that there would need to be a conflict in
00:40:02any case so i mean i think that there's a risk in looking only too narrowly at the nato question which has
00:40:07to be addressed in some sort of legally binding treaty based kind of form but thinking of the bigger
00:40:12pictures you know what is the relationship that we want to have with russia with ukraine with the wider
00:40:17eurasia um continent to the time when relations with the us from an economic and trade investment
00:40:24perspective are in any case starting to sound and we we see that it's in our our collective interest to
00:40:29actually think within our neighborhood i'm going to finish with this with this question this is a big one
00:40:35because i know but i know you're becoming very interested in in the brics question and eurasia and
00:40:40all of this we are we are in a very difficult economic situation not just in britain but in europe
00:40:46in general and um if we can get this issue of nato and russia off the table not only perhaps can we start
00:40:58to address these pressing economic problems that we have but is it not at least possible that you know
00:41:06once we've re-established a civilized dialogue with the russians we might actually be able to work with
00:41:13them to improve our own economic situation and of course there's two because well you've been to russia
00:41:24you've worked there you've been the embassy objectively it seems to me they have a great
00:41:32deal to offer not just natural gas but lots of other things you know lithium whatever whatever
00:41:39natural resources you want extremely smart workforce extremely smart work well you go ahead and say
00:41:47yeah i mean sort of um great sort of cultural heritage uh and all those you know an obvious
00:41:55kind of route into sort of trade into china that could be lower costs than shipping trade and that
00:42:02sort of thing in the future i mean so many economic benefits to us it's an absolute no-brainer you know
00:42:10that actually having uh a more open uh and embracing sort of economic trade investment relationship with the
00:42:15country with you know these vast reserves of low cost energy you know makes uh sense even as we go
00:42:24through some sort of uh unspecified kind of green net zero kind of transition we're still going to need
00:42:29to sort of uh low energy for years to come culturally it makes sense to kind of open borders which the
00:42:35whole european project was kind of grounded upon that that idea of having this kind of common community
00:42:40in terms of this multipolar pivot towards greater trade not just with china but with it with asia
00:42:46you know as a whole i mean russia is the perfect bridge you know to help uh you know build those
00:42:53interconnectors between europe and and wider asia i mean it's there there are no economic uh reasons that
00:43:01actually we wouldn't want wholeheartedly to kind of for embrace uh russia more closely than we do now and
00:43:07in any case we did before i mean even you know when i was in russia you know bp was the biggest western
00:43:13investor in russia through its 19.75 stake of rosneft at the time you know we were invested in in the
00:43:19and it's hard to say now but the north stream 2 uh project through shell i mean we had so we had so
00:43:24many kind of collaborations university to university collaboration was tremendous cultural collaboration
00:43:30kind of was really deep i mean we did so many good things you know together i think we need to kind of
00:43:36focus on that bigger picture you know what is the relationship that we want to have and actually
00:43:41manage the ups and downs which will happen you know it's a complicated difficult relationship
00:43:46politically at times rooted in mutual historical grievances and all those things that we know about
00:43:51very well but we need to kind of focus on the big picture if you know we can have a better
00:43:56relationship with russia if we really want to let you know it's really us that's kind of holding
00:44:00holding ourselves back from that ian proud thank you very much for coming to this program and
00:44:06discussing all of these things today you can just stay there a few minutes if you could just
00:44:11stay there a few minutes um alex will put some questions to you
00:44:17all right uh we have a few questions here for ian proud from william am i right that the talks will
00:44:24fizzle out until even the west twigs istanbul plus was a cracking deal then they may try to accept
00:44:31it only to find that four regions are now six or eight as aristovich warned yeah i mean i think
00:44:39that's a risk of that i think the risk is fairly low at the moment high impact low uh low likelihood
00:44:44is is what i would say right now i think trump is so invested in getting his nobar pre-supplies and
00:44:48bringing the war to an end that there's going to be increasing american pressure to settle istanbul one was
00:44:53was a good deal the deal even now may not be as good as it was then in march 2022 but i think
00:44:59pressure is going to grow including within ukraine itself on selensky for something to give right now
00:45:04and at the moment the russians making all the running you know on this from uh bin lind uk seems
00:45:14to be falling apart can it be in a depression well lots of people are depressed uh i mean i think
00:45:21economically in in some respects i think what what rachel reeves is trying and i'm politically
00:45:25independent by the way i don't support any of the major political uh parties but i mean she's trying
00:45:30to do the impossible she's she is actually trying to embrace uh closest of economic relations with china
00:45:36and with the eu and with the us at the same time that trump is doing his kind of crazy tariff wars
00:45:41if only she embraces kind of uh that with greater eurasian with russia in particular that would be even
00:45:47even better but i think actually there is a plan but i think ukraine war is getting in the way of us
00:45:53actually kind of driving forward and driving growth in our country as soon as we end the war then soon
00:45:59if we can get back to to living on that sparky asks ian before the dissolution of the ussr wasn't ukraine
00:46:06just a nominal country that still thought of itself as russia is it ukraine's identity as separate
00:46:12from russia a product of western propaganda well the ukraine ukraine was its own ssr within the
00:46:20soviet union of course now you can argue historically that was a confected ideal with kind of you know
00:46:25the western ukrainian catholics against kind of russian majority the people in the east the koimian
00:46:30tartars in the south and that sort of thing but it was what it was it was a you know territorially
00:46:35integral you know within the soviet union whether you could frankly ask that about lots of countries
00:46:41whether they really exist but the borders are what they are and you got to deal with the facts on the
00:46:45ground it you know tends to be my my view on that and those factors have obviously changed by war the
00:46:51sooner you can kind of refreeze the lines and get people coexisting the better sparky asks ian isn't
00:46:58it best in the long term for ukraine to go back to being russia like it was before the revolution
00:47:04well i don't really believe in rewriting history i'm gonna dip my deal with what happens in here and
00:47:12now no would be my answer to that i mean ukraine should be ukraine russia should be russia ideally
00:47:16they should both over the much longer term you seek ways to have much better relations than they do
00:47:23now and have done for the past kind of 12 years would be you know my recommendation there's still lots
00:47:27of people in russia with ukrainian heritage lots of people still in ukraine with russian heritage i mean it
00:47:33shouldn't be an either or it should be you know how can we get to a place where both countries can
00:47:37peacefully coexist trade move embrace uh freely and engage with each other as neighbors and uh you know
00:47:45brethren all right one more question and if you have the time from uh josie s uh thank you alex
00:47:52alexander and ian proud for your work question the us eu and uk have all been active participants in
00:47:58this conflict since 2014 yet they still present themselves as neutral mediators and peacemakers
00:48:06this is a complete lie are russia's leaders reminding them that they have been
00:48:10at war and that they are losing has it always been like this in the political leadership of the collective
00:48:16west short answer yes and and trump has changed the game and trump has changed the game you know he he said
00:48:26well actually why should we uh directly engage with russia you know we're also supporting ukraine i
00:48:30mean that that's been the little game changer here you know the us in particular but also the uk and to
00:48:37a lesser extent certainly in the early days you know the eu were very much kind of invested in this
00:48:42idea that ukraine should be peeled away from russian influence and that gambit has has catastrophically
00:48:49failed with the consequences that we see today thank goodness trump is bringing some realism and sense to
00:48:55this let's hope he succeeds fantastic ian proud thank you so much for joining us once again you can
00:49:02follow ian's work in on substack on x on his website i have all those links in the description box down
00:49:08below and i will add them as a pinned comment as well when we wrap up this uh this live stream thank
00:49:13you ian for joining us see you both again all the best thank you thank you very much thank you take care
00:49:18take care all right alexander you there absolutely all right let's answer the remaining questions
00:49:30from nikos you know i once thought that trump didn't understand this conflict because the media have
00:49:36such a big influence on public perception perception but increasingly i think he is an idiot he is losing
00:49:42constantly uh part one in regards to that's one i don't know if you want to comment on that alexander and
00:49:48then and then first of all first of all donald trump first of all donald trump is not an idiot
00:49:54people always say this about him i mean i've had to deal with many idiots in my time i can tell you
00:50:00absolutely not absolutely donald trump is not only not an idiot he is an extremely clever man in his own
00:50:08particular way now what i think he is is also still despite having been president before very
00:50:17inexperienced in conducting negotiations of this kind remember whenever he tried to conduct negotiations
00:50:24back during his first term he was always prevented from doing so basically so it never really got off the
00:50:30ground so i think he's bringing to this particular conflict a diplomatic strategy based on what he used to
00:50:41do in commercial negotiations which doesn't really fit very well but i think this is my own view over the last
00:50:50couple of days he's finally arrived at that point which we were discussing in the program within pram now
00:50:59where he understands that the way forward now is for the russians and the ukrainians to get together
00:51:05and talk and for ukraine uh for zelensky to rescind his uh october 2022 decree and uh forget all about that
00:51:18and finally sit down and negotiate in other words we've gone past the point of first the ceasefire then
00:51:26the negotiations which was always putting the cart before the horse he now understands they have to be
00:51:32the negotiations first then out of the negotiations once you have the framework agreement sorted out
00:51:40you have you get to the cease to to the ceasefire and that means that the ukrainians must finally sit
00:51:48down and talk to the russians and of course they will do so from a vastly weaker position than they were
00:51:55back in april 2022 when they basically walked out of the talks okay nico says in regards to the north
00:52:03korean troops konstantin roshkov aka the real reporter had a conversation about them with sssb
00:52:10veteran valerie shiryaev valerie said that north koreans were brought in as a favor they performed
00:52:16poorly however because they didn't follow the advice of the russian generals and instead used old soviet
00:52:22tactics with that in mind and since south korea is is weaker than ever thanks to president yoon i don't
00:52:30understand why russia announced their participation russia doesn't owe a thanks to kim i guess they did
00:52:36it as a show of force unfortunately i am 100 convinced that europe and the uk will use this as an excuse to
00:52:43bring their own troops into ukraine no i don't think they will actually i don't think that's what's going
00:52:48to happen i think that the whole idea of bringing troops into ukraine is gradually melting away and
00:52:55uh the north korean the presence of the north koreans isn't going to make any difference because
00:53:00the reason it is melting away is because the british and french militaries and the militaries right across
00:53:08europe have told the political leaders it is an absolute non-starter you are sending our soldiers
00:53:15into a furnace and they're going to be roasted that that is what i think is killing that idea entirely
00:53:25as to how well or badly the north koreans did in kursk uh because that's the only place by the way where
00:53:34they fought well you get completely diametrically of opposite accounts from different uh russian commentators
00:53:43i wasn't there i haven't spoken to any north koreans we don't even know how many north koreans there
00:53:48actually were so i am not going to arbitrate and discuss this why did the russians announce it they
00:53:55announced it i am absolutely sure because kim jong-un wanted it announced he wanted it confirmed um why did
00:54:03um the russians agree to uh have north koreans sent to russia at all um i think the answer goes back to
00:54:14what happened in early 2023 when the south koreans disastrously and in the face of repeated warnings
00:54:24both on the russians and i now understand from china and i've heard this now from some people in china
00:54:30uh supplied half a million shells to the united states to facilitate um to facilitate the um ukrainian
00:54:39offensive of the summer of 2023 the russians were absolutely furious about that and they
00:54:46went out of their way to make it clear to the um south koreans that there would be consequences and
00:54:52they did that in the most public way imaginable by getting closer to the to the north koreans and to
00:54:58kim jong-un um a a stupid decision by south korea and by the way by the biden administration which has
00:55:09now had significant consequences banos says put simply with zelensky ruling out uh crimea and the
00:55:17four oblasts being accepted and as part of peace deals what do they suggest to do with the overwhelming
00:55:24russian population in such one wonders we did i mean this is going to be the absolute absolute
00:55:32substance of the negotiations if they ever happen which would go forward i know the russians are going
00:55:38to withdraw from any of these points actually i think the russians for the russians it is every bit
00:55:44as important as every other part of this process um if you read the interview that lavrov gave to these
00:55:53um brazilian newspaper or global and by the way if you watch the interview um um lavrov gave to um
00:56:05i forget her name face the nation yeah um um on cbs alex by the way did a really good um breakdown of
00:56:13that interview if you if you follow those interviews you'll see that the russians are absolutely clear that
00:56:20this is going to be a central part of any settlement without it there isn't going to be peace
00:56:28uh matthew says uh britain wouldn't survive three days if the uk started a war with russia same goes
00:56:34for france and germany nato just doesn't have the military industrial production capability nor does
00:56:39britain you're completely right you are absolutely correct so why do we go around pretending otherwise
00:56:46why do we pretend that we can rearm and sort of keep this russian threat at bay when um what we're
00:56:53doing is crippling our own economies and making ourselves look ridiculous to the world
00:56:59uh bin lind says great videos alex love your humor so do i nico says can i ask what it takes to
00:57:07impeach a president if trump calls europe a cancer and ukraine and a nazi nation aka the truth
00:57:12will he suffer consequences no i don't think he would be impeached on something like that i think
00:57:19there's actually quite a lot of people in the united states who are coming around to that view also by
00:57:24the way the interesting thing is that trump is coming in for a huge amount of criticism in the united
00:57:31states about many many things but not so much about his ukraine policy even the democrats who talk out
00:57:40against it do so i get the sense more because they feel they have to than because they really believe
00:57:46in it i think america collectively understands that this that this story is played out and they want to
00:57:56find a way through i'm going to say this if there's going to be an impeachment i'll tell you where it will
00:58:00come um they will say that trump has violated some of these legal decisions which we do need to do a
00:58:08program about maybe with robert barnes some of these legal decisions that all of these out of
00:58:12control judges all across the united states are making and they will say that he violated his oath
00:58:19to uphold the constitution and the law and they will base the impeachment on that if an impeachment comes
00:58:27it'll be based in other words on these domestic issues william says uh prince william was in a blue
00:58:33suit at the pope's funeral as were many others zielinski was the only one dressed like a car mechanic just
00:58:38saying you have you got it you're so absolutely correct i mean again i mean you know maybe call me
00:58:44old-fashioned i mean when i attend funerals i go in a dark suit with a black tie i mean and i do not talk
00:58:53business there i mean i i i just i i i am i'm not surprised but i'm still a little shocked that this
00:59:03sort of thing happens nick thank you for that super sticker nico says the only weapon ukraine and the
00:59:10eu have is terror in the media zelensky rejected the ceasefire he will conduct terrorism in moscow on
00:59:15may 9th the media will justify it this is my greatest oh absolutely the the russians are already
00:59:20talking about the fact to prepare for some kind of incident on the 9th of may rafael says is there
00:59:27a chance that there is uh leonid brezhnev in russia now watching putin playing around
00:59:34that will remove him like they did to khrushchev no no no no no it's a completely different political
00:59:39system today and i don't think there's any pressure figure uh you know maneuvering to oust
00:59:47putin i mean can i just say if you if you are familiar with the political situation in the
00:59:54soviet union in 1964 i mean brezhnev was actually already a very very powerful political figure and
01:00:02it visibly so before khrushchev was removed what people didn't realize was that the relationship
01:00:11between khrushchev and brezhnev was breaking down but brezhnev was was you know he was the president
01:00:18of the country for one thing and he was seen as a powerful figure already there's no one analogous to
01:00:24brezhnev in russia today and the political structures are completely different putin is elected by the people
01:00:33khrushchev was appointed by a committee the central committee of the communist party and that committee
01:00:41could remove him which is in 1964 what it did miss texas g says alexander could the announcement of
01:00:48nk troops in kursk be more of a message directed at japan and south korea yeah i i it is it's that
01:00:55that is exactly what it is mostly south korea as i said the the russians i know i knew this before but
01:01:01apparently um as i've now learned the russians were absolutely furious when south korea facilitate
01:01:08didn't just facilitate made possible the summer 2023 offensive by violating its own laws by supplying
01:01:18half a million shells to ukraine of course they didn't do it directly they pretended that they were
01:01:23lending the shells to the united states which then of course promptly gave them to ukraine as the south
01:01:29koreans knew perfectly well would happen sparky says seems to me north korea is on a short path
01:01:35to brics membership yeah well quite likely actually i mean the only thing that stands in the way of them
01:01:42doing that by the way is their own ideology juche which i don't pretend in any way to understand that
01:01:48i'm not an expert on but i believe that it's all about self-reliance and all that so it may be that
01:01:54there are ideological issues but then i'm sure that they can find ways around that by the way just to
01:01:59say i mean whatever you may think of the regime in north korea and i am not in any way a fan can i just
01:02:07make that clear kim jong-un is clearly a clever man and he's he knows how to play his cards well i think
01:02:17people ought to be aware of that going forward he's played his cards with the russians with great
01:02:25skill william says is ian right to be blase about four regions becoming sixth and eight i feel there
01:02:31are far too many barriers to peace that won't be overcome before other areas have been captured once
01:02:37captured that's that ian is ian was not being blase he was being british if i may say so i mean he's a very
01:02:45british person and i think he was using the you know very typical british understatement and on top
01:02:51of everything else he he obviously is somebody who is read in russia by the way russians are very well
01:02:59aware of him doesn't want to start floating ideas and saying things that might make more things more
01:03:04complicated than they are already but i think he takes that possibility very seriously as should
01:03:11everybody um the russians have made this point themselves many times that first ukraine had its
01:03:21entire territory and nobody challenged it then in 2014 it lost crimea now it's going to lose donbass
01:03:30and the land bridge if it goes on refusing to negotiate and make a genuine peace
01:03:38peace just as aristovich says it will go on losing territory and losing um um population and losing
01:03:47um all the economic assets that go with that territory right ronov white wolf says what are putin's
01:03:54motivations for shared values visa i know several conservative westerners who are happy in russia
01:03:59uh well i think you've answered the question i mean exactly um that's appropriate yeah yeah that's
01:04:07exactly it yeah happy in russia uh and then kalirisian thank you for a super sticker and final question
01:04:13from sparky president trump is very smart but the gaps in his knowledge leave him vulnerable to the evil
01:04:19naive or incompetent people with whom he surrounds himself very true i i agree i'm going to say something
01:04:24else you know everybody talks about you know trump being a man of enormous weaning self-confidence
01:04:33i i i would say somewhat the opposite actually i think that he is very very strong and self-confident
01:04:41when he deals with politics and elections and things of that kind in his conductive diplomacy
01:04:48i think because he's so inexperienced in it he is insecure and that makes him listen sometimes to very
01:04:58bad counsel as he did with bolton disastrously in his first um and as he's been doing with kellogg
01:05:06over the course of the ukraine negotiations all right uh final question from sparky comment from
01:05:14sparky kim young un and president trump still have a mutual friend dennis rodman and they do absolutely
01:05:20and and there is talk in america that trump wants to restart that negotiation over again and so he
01:05:28should just me thank you for that super chat and chili pepper says russia is basically telling ukraine
01:05:34either withdraw fully from the four regions or we take it from you what do you expect ukraine to do
01:05:40well what they should do is sit down and talk now they should sit down and talk now they don't need
01:05:48to agree a ceasefire they should go and meet in istanbul in minsk in riad in jeddah they can have the
01:05:57americans in the background i think the russians would prefer to deal with the americans by themselves
01:06:03by the way without the americans there but anyway they can do whatever they however whatever the format of
01:06:08the talks they need to start negotiating with the russians now and they need to understand that
01:06:12they are in a very very weak position indeed their battlefield situation is getting worse and worse
01:06:20and the americans have reached their limits and the europeans have no limits because they have no
01:06:29capacity so one can't even talk about limits when they're not in any position to provide assistance by
01:06:35themselves and that's where i think what the ukrainians should do whether they will is a
01:06:42completely different question notice that putin brought up this question of talks direct talks
01:06:49between russia and ukraine at the meeting with whitkov on saturday the americans trump seem to be taking it
01:06:56up we've had no move in that direction from zelensky up to now and the october 2022 decree prohibiting
01:07:05negotiations he shows no sign of being prepared to receive alex rafael says if i were uh modi i would
01:07:13change my policy modi uh which policy there's so many policies that modi has um yeah yeah oh yeah i
01:07:25would change my policy okay yeah um thank you for that rafael elza says i'm sure macron wanted to join the
01:07:31historic 15-minute talks at uh peter's dome and and beat it a third third chair to repeat the historic
01:07:43photo in yalta 19 i needed a third chair to repeat the historic photo in yalta 1945 that is so ridiculous
01:07:51i i agree with you by the way i mean in macron's fantasies that probably is true but i mean you know
01:07:57uh roosevelt churchill started trump and zelensky and macron i mean really i mean for macron i would
01:08:07have thought if macron had any degree of uh self-awareness uh a a photo like that he would
01:08:14realize in a year's time would be an embarrassment it would not be i mean it would certainly go into
01:08:21history but for all the wrong reasons macron is in my opinion an absolutely hopeless leader
01:08:28um he imagines himself a genius and he's really a fool sparky says dennis rodman should be trump's
01:08:34envoy to take some of the burden off whitkopf he'd do a better job than than kellogg that's for sure
01:08:41oh absolutely i would rather have rodman than than kellogg yeah uh jungle gin says hungry leaves the icc
01:08:48after dead and yahoo's visit i think the icc is on his last legs um i think it's i think it's
01:08:55disintegrating i think it's made one mistake after another uh from uh geo stone g stone says how will
01:09:04the uk and eu tell its citizens that soldiers sent to ukraine were killed in action and then and they
01:09:10now are at war will they do will they do forced conscription well i i think there would be massive
01:09:17opposition within british society to such a move to say that straightforwardly as for having an honest
01:09:25conversation with ourselves well that is obviously also massively overdue don't expect to get it from
01:09:34kirsten and the final question from klaus uh says seriously is there a possibility of an assassination on
01:09:41may 8th when russia celebrates victory so lenski they celebrated they celebrated on may 9th by the way
01:09:47but yes there is may 8th is when uh in the west and in ukraine now they celebrate it but in russia
01:09:54it's celebrated on the 9th of that yeah uh jungle gin says is the icj also a dead duck no no no that is a
01:10:04much much more powerful institution with a very very much longer history and a very very much uh
01:10:10more powerful uh jurisprudence behind it no comparison all right thank you to ian proud for
01:10:18joining us on this live stream thank you to everyone that watched us on odyssey on rumble rockfin
01:10:24uh youtube the duran.locals.com as well thank you to our moderators for helping us out uh chili pepper
01:10:33says russia has said the four regions is part of their territory no country in the history has
01:10:39withdrawn from their own territory and handed over to the invading country russia is not leaving much
01:10:44room i i i would also add to that that i think that people think that it will take the russians longer
01:10:52to capture the whole territory of the four regions then it probably will just say
01:10:58and sparky says i read dennis rodman's books years ago he's more than just a great rebounder i agree
01:11:05sparky i completely agree yeah yeah good point all right that is the live stream um
01:11:11um that's it we'll get some videos up indeed great program and great questions thanks to everyone
01:11:20um take care everybody
01:11:29you
01:11:29you
01:11:29you
01:11:29you