Powering the Future: Energy Access, Degrowth & Critical Minerals | Tangelic Talks S02E02 (Panel)
🌍 What does a truly just and equitable energy future look like? In this groundbreaking first-ever panel episode of Tangelic Talks, host Jensen Cummings brings together three powerful voices—Dr. Tam Kemabonta, Madison Harris, and Victoria Cornelio—to dive deep into the global challenges of energy access, critical mineral extraction, and the provocative degrowth movement.
🎙️ From microgrids and climate reparations to deep-sea mining and colonial legacies, this is a bold conversation about building systems that serve people—not just profit.
🎧 What You’ll Discover:
⚡ Why 700 million people still live without electricity—and what must change
🔋 How microgrids and clean cooking tech can transform communities
🌱 Are we repeating colonial patterns in the green tech boom?
🌀 The degrowth dilemma: Is “less” the path to justice and sustainability?
đź’° Ethics in climate finance, reparations & the future of energy systems
🌍 How ownership, equity & inclusion redefine clean energy
đź“Ś Timestamps
00:00–01:39 Start and Introduction: Tangelic’s First Panel on Energy, Justice, and Sustainability
01:40–04:49 Meet the Panelists: Dr. Tam Kemabonta, Madison Harris & Victoria Cornelio
04:50–09:09 Global Energy Inequality: Why 700 Million People Still Lack Electricity
09:10–12:59 Affordable Energy for All: Regulatory Solutions and Community Models
13:00–17:39 Microgrids and Technology: Rethinking Clean Energy for Rural Communities
17:40–23:09 Climate Finance and Reparations: Who Should Fund the Green Transition
23:10–27:19 Energy Justice in the Global South: Ownership, Equity and Inclusion
27:20–31:59 Critical Minerals and Colonialism: Are We Repeating Exploitative Patterns
32:00–36:39 Deep-Sea Mining and Resource Extraction: Environmental Ethics in Question
36:40–40:29 The Degrowth Dilemma: Can We Rethink Progress for a Sustainable Future
46:20-47:01 Final Reflections & Call to Action and Closing
đź’¬ Join the conversation: Is degrowth the future of sustainability? How do we ensure energy equity globally? Let us know in the comments.
✨ Subscribe for more powerful conversations on climate, justice, and innovation.
đź”– #TangelicTalks #PoweringTheFuture #DegrowthDebate #CleanEnergyNow #JustEnergyTransition #CriticalMinerals #EnergyJustice #ClimateSolutions #ClimateReparations #WomenInEnergy #GreenTechForAll #EnvironmentalJustice #VoicesForChange
🌍 What does a truly just and equitable energy future look like? In this groundbreaking first-ever panel episode of Tangelic Talks, host Jensen Cummings brings together three powerful voices—Dr. Tam Kemabonta, Madison Harris, and Victoria Cornelio—to dive deep into the global challenges of energy access, critical mineral extraction, and the provocative degrowth movement.
🎙️ From microgrids and climate reparations to deep-sea mining and colonial legacies, this is a bold conversation about building systems that serve people—not just profit.
🎧 What You’ll Discover:
⚡ Why 700 million people still live without electricity—and what must change
🔋 How microgrids and clean cooking tech can transform communities
🌱 Are we repeating colonial patterns in the green tech boom?
🌀 The degrowth dilemma: Is “less” the path to justice and sustainability?
đź’° Ethics in climate finance, reparations & the future of energy systems
🌍 How ownership, equity & inclusion redefine clean energy
đź“Ś Timestamps
00:00–01:39 Start and Introduction: Tangelic’s First Panel on Energy, Justice, and Sustainability
01:40–04:49 Meet the Panelists: Dr. Tam Kemabonta, Madison Harris & Victoria Cornelio
04:50–09:09 Global Energy Inequality: Why 700 Million People Still Lack Electricity
09:10–12:59 Affordable Energy for All: Regulatory Solutions and Community Models
13:00–17:39 Microgrids and Technology: Rethinking Clean Energy for Rural Communities
17:40–23:09 Climate Finance and Reparations: Who Should Fund the Green Transition
23:10–27:19 Energy Justice in the Global South: Ownership, Equity and Inclusion
27:20–31:59 Critical Minerals and Colonialism: Are We Repeating Exploitative Patterns
32:00–36:39 Deep-Sea Mining and Resource Extraction: Environmental Ethics in Question
36:40–40:29 The Degrowth Dilemma: Can We Rethink Progress for a Sustainable Future
46:20-47:01 Final Reflections & Call to Action and Closing
đź’¬ Join the conversation: Is degrowth the future of sustainability? How do we ensure energy equity globally? Let us know in the comments.
✨ Subscribe for more powerful conversations on climate, justice, and innovation.
đź”– #TangelicTalks #PoweringTheFuture #DegrowthDebate #CleanEnergyNow #JustEnergyTransition #CriticalMinerals #EnergyJustice #ClimateSolutions #ClimateReparations #WomenInEnergy #GreenTechForAll #EnvironmentalJustice #VoicesForChange
Category
đź“š
LearningTranscript
00:00Certainly, are you able to warm and engage in my community for your podcast?
00:04Consider great.
00:04Tell me as a suggestion that combines an upbeat and abiding spirit without any micro music.
00:10Welcome to Tangelic Talks, your go-to podcast from Tangelic,
00:14where we dive into the vibrant world of clean energy, development, sustainability, and climate change in Africa.
00:20We bring you inspiring stories, insightful discussions, and groundbreaking innovations
00:25from the continent-making waves in the global community.
00:28Tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future.
00:32Let's get started.
00:36Welcome to Tangelic Talks, a podcast at the intersection of energy, equity, and empowerment
00:42with just your host, Jensen Cummings, today because we have a very special episode
00:47we are calling Powering the Future, Energy Access, Critical Minerals, and the Degrowth Dilemma.
00:53It's our first panel discussion.
00:54We're going to be joined by Dr. Tam Kimambonta, Madison Harris, and our own Victoria Cornelio
01:00is going to be on the panel.
01:02We're excited about that.
01:03Our panelists are each future leaders in these spaces that I just mentioned.
01:08They're going to inherit the state of things from previous generations.
01:13And so what I was interested in hearing from them is how they're viewing the challenges
01:17and potential opportunities that lay ahead, where is their thinking, where are the hopes,
01:23the dreams, the joys, the pains that they're feeling in this moment as they look into the
01:28future within their own works and the global state.
01:32So let me just properly introduce our panelists.
01:36First up, Dr. Tam Kimambonta is an energy system specialist focused on institutions, regulation,
01:42and electricity markets across sub-Saharan Africa and North America.
01:46He is also the founder of Entric, an energy transition infrastructure company bringing clean
01:51power to underserved communities.
01:53Next up, Madison Harris is working and studying at Arizona State University as she completes
02:00a Master's of Sustainability Solutions degree.
02:03Her academic interests include the tradeoffs and negative consequences associated with the
02:07technological innovations in the transition toward renewable energy.
02:12Finally, Victoria Cornelio, on top of her role at Tangelic, also works for an environmental
02:17think tank focused on clean energy and water, also serves as a communications officer for a
02:22children's charity.
02:24Victoria has a background in politics and a master's degree specializing in the sociopolitical
02:28dimensions of climate change.
02:31Thanks to all three of you for being here.
02:34Thanks.
02:34All right.
02:35As I mentioned, we're going to be talking about these three areas, clean energy, access,
02:40we're going to be talking about critical minerals, and we're going to be talking about some
02:45of the things that lay ahead for a degrowth dilemma, what's happening there.
02:51So let's start with energy access.
02:53So before we can talk about energy transition, we need to spotlight the need for improving
02:57energy access.
02:58As we transition to cleaner energy, how do we ensure equitable access?
03:03Are marginalized and developing regions being overlooked?
03:06Dr. Kimabota, I want to start with you here.
03:09This is kind of your field, your area.
03:11So give us your first thoughts, your overview when you're thinking about energy access.
03:17Great.
03:18Thanks for having me on the show.
03:19I really appreciate being here.
03:20So, I mean, as you mentioned, there are probably about 700 million people in the world today
03:29who don't have access to electricity.
03:31And we all know that electricity makes your life a lot easier.
03:35So, for example, you can wash your clothes, you can cook your food, and you can read a book
03:39at the same time.
03:40And you can only do your three things largely because of electricity, you know.
03:45And thinking about some of the solutions that we need to address a lot of the people or to
03:52address the energy needs of people who currently live in energy poverty, I think a major thing
03:58we need to focus on is affordability, which I think can come through the aspect of addressing
04:05some of the regulatory structures within these countries.
04:07So, for example, a major utility can't charge cost-reflective tariffs within a country.
04:14They're not able to recoup their costs back and they're not able to build out larger systems
04:18to address those who don't have access, which is a major problem.
04:21So, many of the countries that currently experience energy poverty who are largely located in sub-Saharan
04:28Africa have liquidity crisis within their energy power sectors.
04:32So, they can't even address some of the customers they already have.
04:35And now they need to extend the grade to address some of the other customers that are not connected
04:40to the grade, so those who are actually living in energy poverty.
04:43Hence, thinking about some of the solutions that we've been looking at is what are the local
04:47frameworks by which you can think of planning energy systems?
04:51How do we think about going into communities that don't have access, coming up with solutions
04:56that address affordability, that creates reliable access, and to some extent is relatively clean.
05:04So, hence, it doesn't cost at least not direct health to some of these people.
05:14In some cases, they use gasoline generators and they put these generators in very, very enclosed spaces
05:21that can lead to carbon monoxide poisoning, for example.
05:24So, how do we think about the solutions and how do we come up with a way to make it affordable?
05:28And that's largely what I've been focusing on for the past couple of years.
05:32And I think that a major way to think about it is if you can create a regulatory structure
05:37that allows developers to come up with solutions with the communities where this is necessary,
05:43because communities are different from one another.
05:46Some communities experience some level of political instability and some don't.
05:51So, this always has to be part of the planning process to bring electricity to these people.
05:57So, just to wrap that up real quickly.
05:59So, solutions should focus on affordability, should focus on reliability, and should focus
06:05on safety, you know, safety, looking at the environmental aspects of it.
06:11And if you can address that, then you can think about solutions that can help this community
06:16that don't have access to electricity.
06:18Appreciate that.
06:19I like how you put an end cap on that as well, because that's usually my job.
06:22That was excellently done.
06:24Appreciate that.
06:25So, Madison, I'm interested from your perspective, I think technology, thinking about the different
06:33types of clean energy, thinking of microgrids, some of these types of things, where does your
06:38head go when I say that, when I frame it like that, as far as the places that you want to
06:44see some attention and some energy spent on creating some solutions?
06:49Yeah, for sure.
06:50So, because my master's program is sustainability solutions, we often try to, you know, come
06:56up with solutions to some of these big problems.
06:59And we often find in sustainability, and in most fields, there's trade-offs.
07:04So, while technology can be a solution in some cases to some of these challenges of energy
07:11access and renewable energy transitions, it can also have some negative impacts as well.
07:18I'm really interested in looking into the trade-offs when it comes to sourcing minerals or something
07:26like AI or big tech, and what do data centers do to our energy grid, and what does that increasing
07:34demand do to energy reliability and energy equity?
07:37There's some interesting cases, at least in the U.S., of injustice happening and energy
07:44justice challenges when natural disasters happen, because there's so much energy reliance on the
07:53tech sector.
07:55And when it comes to smaller nations, I think microgrids can be a great solution, particularly
08:00for island nations, because it's expensive to ship in oil and gas.
08:05And renewable energy is becoming an increasingly affordable option, especially in terms of fuel,
08:13because there's no additional marginal cost for fuel if you're using something like the
08:17sun or wind, whereas you can't say that for oil and gas.
08:22But again, there's trade-offs to everything.
08:26And so, yeah, you have to really look at these challenges with a systems perspective and also
08:33consider social economic implications.
08:37And when it comes to economic implications, financing is a big challenge, especially when
08:42we consider that these developing nations often face the brunt of climate change.
08:48And so they're often having to respond to immediate impacts like flooding or sea level rise, and
08:55they might not necessarily have the financial means to prioritize sustainability in the long
09:01term because they're busy paying off more immediate concerns.
09:07Can you say more on the financing side?
09:09I think that's interesting, right?
09:10We hear things about carbon credits, I think is a big kind of buzzword right now that I don't
09:17know was maybe potentially meant to be something that could help support some of these underserved
09:21communities.
09:22Now it feels like it might be a little bit extractive in its potential.
09:27How do you see some of the ways that financing can meet these needs and these challenges?
09:32Yeah.
09:32So there's lots of pretty unique funding mechanisms that could be used.
09:38There's different types of bonds, different types of grants.
09:44There's lots of examples.
09:45And one resource that I like to refer to is from the World Economic Forum.
09:49They have this kind of playbook of solutions to kind of mobilize energy transitions.
09:55And a lot of them rely on, yeah, like debt financing, bonds, equity financing, lots of
10:01different mechanisms that can be used.
10:03And I like to say I prefer the ones that don't generate debt and don't have to be paid
10:07back.
10:08Because ultimately, when you look at the problem holistically, it's the developed nations that
10:13are predominantly causing climate change historically and currently.
10:18So I don't think it's fair to then look at the countries that are facing the brunt of climate
10:23change and say, hey, why are you using coal?
10:26You have to use renewable energy.
10:27You have to find a way to pay for it.
10:29That just seems ethically unfair to me.
10:32That makes sense.
10:32All right, Victoria, for you, energy justice, I think, was touched on several times by Dr.
10:38Kemba Bonta and Madison as well.
10:40And I know a space that you're very passionate about.
10:43So let's talk about that a little bit.
10:45How kind of the disparity between wealthy nations and underserved communities, how do we bridge
10:50that gap?
10:50Where is the disconnect there?
10:52I mean, I think it ties back to something Madison was saying about finance and finance
10:59always comes up.
11:00The COP in Brazil this year is all about sorting out this climate finance, you know, tweaks
11:05that we need to get reparations and adaptation measures and things like that.
11:10So it is a big one.
11:11But I think if we started calling these loans grants, I think that would automatically start
11:18shifting the balance a little bit because a loan implies that you will be able to pay
11:23it back.
11:24A grant is something that you give and you forget about it.
11:27And like Madison said, when you have a community that is being hit every which way and cannot
11:33prioritize necessarily unsustainable long-term projects because there's immediate needs right
11:38now, then you're asking for a bit too much to expect for that to be paid back.
11:44And I think there's also something about with microgrids or community ownership models, you
11:49know, things like having these things given back to the community, but also that the community
11:55as a project is hands-on getting these, for example, off-grid, renewable, solar microgrids,
12:02things like that.
12:03You train the community to be able to use it themselves.
12:06It's moving away from coming in and giving solutions and actually equipping communities
12:12to sustain those solutions because then you fall into this trap of dependency that we've
12:17been seeing since, you know, colonialism.
12:19And it's something that is really hard for us to move away from because there is this
12:24misconception, which there is a reason there is this misconception, but there is this thing
12:29where the knowledge is up here and we have to transfer it over there or the resources are
12:34here and we have to give them over there.
12:36And then it means that there is never that feedback loop of, well, now that we've given
12:41them over there, they can stay over there.
12:43No, we're expecting things to just keep running without that intersection.
12:47And it just doesn't work, as we can see.
12:50These things just don't work.
12:51And I think just transition frameworks, especially, lack that nuance.
12:58I appreciate that.
12:59This is a complicated subject and one of the things that Tangelic is really focused on as
13:06well.
13:06So I appreciate the input on this because it continues to allow us as an organization and
13:14as a think tank of individuals to be able to bring solutions to the table.
13:18And that's why we have these conversations.
13:19That's why this panel is so important because for better or worse, we're leaving you with
13:25this mess here and we need to figure out solutions to be able to come up with how we usher in
13:33the next generation of technology, of energy, of clean energy.
13:37Appreciate that.
13:37All right, let's transition into our second segment here.
13:41We're going to talk about critical minerals.
13:43And if we get on board with renewable technologies and energy sources, we need to address the need
13:47for critical minerals is the race for critical minerals for renewable energy, simply repeating
13:53the extractive practices of the fossil fuel era.
13:56I want to touch on that.
13:57We had a very compelling conversation with Eric Lyon.
14:00Check that episode out.
14:01Who's digging into this in multiple books and then his newest book coming out as well.
14:06So wanted to start with Madison here is this is kind of a space that's really important
14:12to you. So when you're thinking about that question that I kind of posed, how do we not
14:18repeat our past discretions when it comes to the way that we approach the fossil fuel era
14:24when we're thinking about critical minerals kind of open us up here and talk about critical
14:29minerals as a as a role in clean energy?
14:33Yeah, this is a really interesting topic.
14:35And that's a great way to frame it that I find myself framing the question in a similar
14:40way because the energy transition is actively happening and we're actively seeking out these
14:47minerals. We do have the opportunity to to treat the situation differently than we have in the
14:52past. And instead of being reactive in our you know, after our exploitative or degrading
15:00natural resource extraction, we have the opportunity to do better proactively to an extent.
15:07I will say that there's already a lot of damage done in mining. There's a lot of unethical,
15:13like extremely unethical practices happening around the world, like not exaggerating here,
15:19it's slave labor. It's very unethical and it's it's pretty repulsive the way that these resources
15:26are extracted. And it's to meet the demand again of of countries like the US who are demanding these
15:33minerals for our technology for even for our energy transition. And that's why this topic
15:39particularly is unique, because you can make the the environmental case on both sides of the argument,
15:47you can say that resource extraction is environmentally degrading. But you can also say that this resource
15:53extraction is necessary to combat climate change because we need these minerals for a green energy
15:59transition. So I'm particularly interested in deep sea mining because it poses the question. It's even
16:04more, you know, in the future because we're not commercially mining the deep sea bed yet. And you can see
16:12this argument on both sides of of the debate. Environmental activist groups are advocating against deep sea
16:20mining deep sea mining for a moratorium because it's could degrade these very, very fragile ecosystems at
16:29the bottom of the ocean. But then you can also see the other side of the coin. You can see mining companies
16:34as well as some small island nation states who are advocating for deep sea mining as a means to address
16:40climate change and as a means to grow economically. So it's really interesting because historically we've kind of
16:48seen the argument that like, oh, if we deforest all these trees, the, you know, argument for that is economic
16:56development, you know, for industry. And then the argument against it is almost always environmental protection. And
17:02those were very divided. But it's a unique argument now because you can use the environmental take on either side. So
17:09that's why it's really interesting. And that's why it's really hard to wrap your head around it sometimes because it is just very
17:15complex. And there's a lot of nuance to these, these, these discussions.
17:20And Madison, for you, a reference, Eric Lyon, one of the things that he talked about was how much of a stranglehold China has on
17:29many of these minerals that we are reliant on for our technology and for our renewable energies. How do you think about that as, as you're U.S. based and
17:39thinking about kind of your own communities and how we have access or how we're going to kind of go into the future with our strategy around critical minerals?
17:49Can you give us just a little bit of a synopsis there of where you're thinking is that?
17:52Yeah, yeah. I think I saw recently, like maybe 70 to 80 percent of mineral of these critical minerals are processed through China. So yeah, to a lot of people that poses a
18:02national security threat, right? Like, how can you be so reliant on any country for, for a good that's so valuable?
18:13But I mean, for me, that, again, that just kind of goes to show the complexity of the argument.
18:19Um, that's, that's part of the, the, the information that, that mining companies use when they're trying to advocate for deep sea mining, because it would improve that fact. You know, it would diversify our procurement of these minerals. Um, so again, like that's a, that's a pro sure to a lot of people, but you have to weigh the risk of the potential environmental factors.
18:45Understood. Dr. Kim, I want to, uh, Sub-Saharan Africa has been at the center of a lot of this when it comes to the extractive predatory type practices, uh, of the corporate social responsibility veil that sometimes is laid over some of these initiatives, some of these programs, some of these companies going into these communities, into these countries.
19:12And, uh, you know, we've heard from Dr. Nathan Andrews talking about how sometimes governments or militaries will side with these companies over their own people and things like that are happening in this critical mineral space.
19:26I want to get your take on that. How do you see that challenge being laid out, uh, in these communities? And do you see opportunity for some agency, some ownership over the future of these minerals when it comes to Sub-Saharan Africa?
19:44Um, I do, but I think that it will require us rethinking the process about what the ownership of these mineral structures look like.
19:54And if you think about the idea of extracting and the places where it's mostly like became a problem, you know, where these resources became a curse.
20:04For example, uh, these are largely in countries that never really had clearly defined property rights when it came to subsurface minerals.
20:12And because of that, the idea was a lot of these minerals are owned by a government and the government that really, really lacks institutional capacity to fully enforce ownership on a lot of this, uh, mineral.
20:26And that leads to conflict across board.
20:28I remember a story, a friend of mine told me many years ago, he said he was in the boardroom of a major oil firm where his mentor had invited him because they were really thinking through the process of dealing with, you know, oil, um, spills and a lot of their assets across the world.
20:45And they wanted to figure out how they can, uh, remediate some of the, uh, land that might have experienced some spills and things like that.
20:54And so they were talking about their assets, for example, in, in, in, in Europe and in the U S and in Africa.
21:01And the idea was they had to take, pass a lot more money, get the remediation tools, higher and environmental engineering comments, address some of the problems in Europe and in, in the U S.
21:15Or when it came to Africa, the idea was, Oh, we'll just pay a fee, you know, a fine. Sorry.
21:20And for some reason within the room, as he told it to me was that it was understood what that fine meant, you know, you know, and I, and I'm like, if those countries had taken it more seriously, or if.
21:33Or if, you know, where the location of the drill sites was, for example, the production site was belongs to somebody.
21:40He's very much more interested in preserving the integrity of the surface of their property.
21:46Hence, if you remove oil from the ground, you must remediate and you must remediate to the state.
21:52It was before putting, uh, removing oil from the ground.
21:56And if many of those countries could figure that out, for example, the most, uh, best example I could state is creating real, real private property and subsurface rights.
22:07And second example is if that is not the case, figuring out a way by which you can improve or increase government capacity to properly enforce this ownership over these assets.
22:17And be much more incentivized to think about the long-term value of these assets.
22:22And when I mean the assets, that is the, the, the land, the minerals are wrong because after you remove the minerals from the land, if they're solid minerals, you need to fill that space back.
22:32So you don't have, uh, the earth collapse into the ground.
22:36So you don't have some of the geological problems that could happen across board because people still need land to live on.
22:41For example, if they can think about that, and I think they can address the problem and the idea of a resource curse will no longer be a curse.
22:48I mean, oil before, before oil was discovered in Houston, it was barely a village, you know, but the reason why Houston as a city exists is largely because of oil that has developed the city over time.
23:05And many, many Texas, uh, cities can, can lay claim to these Dallas, for example.
23:10Um, so I would say thinking about the existing capacity of this countries, figuring out who really owns the minerals.
23:17So instead of, you know, getting royalties from removing the minerals, why don't you let the owners of the land get royalties from the surface minerals on their land?
23:27And then maybe they pay you a tax and that's how you charge it.
23:31You know, that way you can, they are more incentivized to, to ensure that their land is, is, is well taken care of because it's still their land.
23:41And after the ore finishes or, you know, the lithium finishes or, which is the most common case, the cobots, uh, you know, is, is, is, is, is, is utilized.
23:52For example, you still want to use that land for other things, right?
23:55So hand, they have the incentives to require that land, uh, to either be put back in the state.
24:02It was before the mining happened, so they can use it for other things.
24:05But if it's some, you know, corrupt government entity that is some capital city miles away, no one really has the incentive to come back and think about what has happened to that land.
24:14And I think that is a problem that we've seen across the sub-Saharan African region.
24:19And this is very much the case with respect to oil, especially the countries that have, uh, the major oil exporters in sub-Saharan Africa, Nigeria, Angola, Gabon, Equatoria, Guinea.
24:30You know, the devastating effect of oil production in those places are largely because there are no subsurface ownership rights in those minerals.
24:39And the governments who claim to own those minerals have no incentive to think about what should, uh, the post, uh, state of the, of that land being after oil production or mineral production is done.
24:52Um, I think if they can, if we can start thinking about that approach and the idea of resources being a curse would no longer be the case for this because it's crazy.
25:01This is a very valuable in the markets, super valuable.
25:04Why are they then a curse to the countries that we find them in?
25:08And we continue to discover that the countries that we find them in where they're a curse have no subsurface private, uh, have no property rights and subsurface rights.
25:17And the governments who claim to own those assets never, never really enforce the monitoring and protection of, uh, the land after production is done.
25:27I really like that preventative preventative approach of if we know we have these resources, let's protect them.
25:36And then they're not like this boogeyman that we're scared are going to be stolen.
25:40Yeah.
25:41I really like that.
25:42I think the localizing of that ownership, even beyond the country state level at the community level, I think it's very fascinating, uh, to, to continue to explore because they do have that incentive for that land.
25:55Beyond its mineral, uh, access.
25:59So I think that's interesting, Victoria, for you, the story that Dr. Kim and Bonta mentioned is, is powerful because at the boardroom level, there is under representation, if any from those communities.
26:16And so they're just willing to pay the fine because no more thought needs to be given to those communities, they'll just pay the fine.
26:25When you hear that, when you think about that, through your own sociopolitical kind of view and lens, how can we, how can we bridge that gap?
26:34Can we get representation in those boardrooms?
26:37Is that, is that a first step?
26:40Is that possible?
26:41Guide us a little bit.
26:43I mean, I mean, I don't want to sound cynical here, but there is something to be said that when, when people know that you're misbehaving, they will start shaming you.
26:54And then that makes you act better.
26:56And I say this in a political sense, right?
27:00You have a lot of powerful NGOs and movements that have been able to make progress because they've been able to raise awareness about the bad things happening behind the scenes.
27:10People get, you know, mad and they start calling for change.
27:14And this is the, I think this is why policy is so dependent on the people, right?
27:20Because if you know people are mad about a thing and you might lose your election, if you don't address it, you might be ran out of town because a community is getting fed up with something.
27:31A government might not renew your contract as a private organization because they're getting backlash from the international community for these atrocities and human rights violations in your establishment.
27:43All these things push government to have to do better.
27:47It pushes organizations to have to do better and companies.
27:51And I hate that that's the thing, but I do see it in my own line of work that, you know, blaming and shaming is sadly, there's a reason it's been the textbook advocacy thing to do for the last at least 20 years.
28:09You know, I think Greenpeace built the blueprint and we've all jumped on it because there is a reason that if people are mad and they see what's happening, they will start doing it.
28:18So there's also a misconception in capitalism that as a consumer, we don't have power.
28:24But then why do we have all these vegetarian and vegan alternatives to sausages and mincemeat and all this stuff?
28:31Well, because companies notice that people want to be veggie and they're going to give us what we want.
28:36So when enough people want it, then they start producing.
28:39That's the thing. There is power in you saying that you're mad about something or that you want something simply because capitalism is catered to give you the thing that you want.
28:49And a lot of democratic institutions are also geared to give you what you want.
28:54So if you're mad about a thing, they will try to fix it because they don't want to lose the election and their seats in their power.
28:59And if you want a certain product, capitalism is going to provide it because they still want your money.
29:03So let's ask for good things, you know, because we can get them.
29:07But there needs to be a level of shaming and blaming for those things to happen most times.
29:12It's such a it's so polarizing what I hear you saying, because many of the tenants of capitalism are potentially the levers that are forcing these circumstances to become the reality that everybody has been mentioning.
29:27How do we then take that same system and then flip it to be the lever that allows there to be some change in progress who I don't know the answer that I don't know that anybody knows the answer that those are really complicated, systemic type questions.
29:44That's why we're here. We're here to ask those questions, because I think it's it's important to look at where the opportunities actually are, because the challenges are very real.
29:53They're very palpable as we look generationally. I think we've had a few generations that we have been poor stewards of the land, so to speak.
30:04And now it's falling again on you as leaders to figure out the solutions. And I don't envy you that job.
30:12So I appreciate the work that you do. I just wanted to acknowledge that for a moment before we go before we go into our third topic and talk about the degrowth dilemma.
30:23So a lot of literature says we shouldn't focus on making things, quote, sustainable. We should actually be doing less.
30:29Our whole system runs on overconsumption and constant growth. So even if we made everything eco friendly, we'd still be using way too much.
30:36So here's the question. Can the growth really work or are we already too deep into this capitalist, consumer driven way of life to change course touched on that just a little bit?
30:47So that's a proper segue there. Victoria, I want to start with you.
30:51This is again, this is where your mindset and your focus and attention really is. So are we too far down that road?
30:58How do we course correct here? We're never too far down any road, I think personally, because we have seen things change overnight.
31:08And when I say overnight in politics, overnight is within a week. Right.
31:12Like things change quite quickly when enough people are mad and motivated enough to make to change them.
31:19I think the problem with degrowth is the same problem we're seeing with renewables and a certain narrative in the international community being said that we need renewables.
31:29So we're going to shame people using fossil fuels. Right.
31:32We can't all decide to do degrowth and then be shocked that poverty is on the rise and there's more diseases and people are, you know, mortality rates are growing and things like that.
31:43Degrowth isn't something we can just do. But as we track back down that road that we've gone down to, if we put global justice at the core, degrowth is focused on reducing excess consumption.
31:54So we're not shutting the world down. We're saying, do you actually need all these things?
31:58Do you actually need to do all the things that you're doing? Do you need all these resources? Let's scale it back.
32:04And then when we scale back, redistribution is essential because you're scaling back excess and redistributing that to where there isn't excess because some people cannot go back anymore.
32:16They have nothing to go back on. Right. So when we redistribute, a lot of it is a conversation about climate reparations, technology transfer, fair trade policies, these types of things that allow us to redistribute the things that we have while having this global solidarity approach.
32:33It's not an isolationist policy where we say, OK, degrowth and we're shutting it down and you focus on your thing and I focus on mine and that's how we're going to fix it because we are in an international community and there is something to be said about that.
32:46So a global solidarity approach that puts global justice at the core, focuses on reducing excess consumption and then redistributing that those resources that we maybe don't need a thousand light bulbs in a building.
33:02You know, I think that might be a bit excessive.
33:07When you're speaking, it made me think of one of our guests was Dr. Tom Murphy, who is a physicist who gave Victoria and I a real existential crisis throughout this entire episode.
33:18And one of the stories that are the kind of metaphors that he gave us was if the Titanic had had solar panels, it still would have been ripped to shred by that iceberg and sunk.
33:29And so I think about that a lot now as I go through my daily life and see the excesses of our current culture and the role that we each play within that.
33:39And degrowth seems an impossibility almost to me.
33:44And so the decisions that we make within that context are incredibly daunting personally for any country, for that international community, as you mentioned.
33:55So thank you for bringing that kind of to the forefront in this conversation.
33:59Madison, I saw you when Victoria said redistribution as something that needs to be understood and addressed.
34:07So framing redistribution. Talk about that a little bit.
34:11How is that something that potentially is impactful or meaningful to you?
34:15Yeah, I think I was definitely nodding because I think redistribution is fundamental to degrowth.
34:21Degrowth is not just about decreasing GDP.
34:26It's about like radical distribution, radical shifts in the systems that we live in.
34:32And also like I have a pretty radical view of degrowth.
34:36So I think it means like complete abolition of all like destructive practices.
34:41And I like to reference when I'm talking about degrowth, a quote from Kate Raworth, who wrote Donut Economics.
34:48And she emphasizes that we live on a finite planet, right?
34:53Like we're we're we're basing our economic system on the foundation of infinite growth on a finite planet.
35:01And when we look to nature, the only thing that involves infinite growth is cancer.
35:07So if you think about it that way, we're fundamentally contradicting the place that we live by the way that we're living.
35:15So I don't really see degrowth as feasible or unfeasible.
35:21I more see it as a inevitable eventually.
35:25Like I think either the human race continues on with this perception that we can infinitely like extract resources and infinitely grow or there's like the harsh reality that that doesn't work anymore.
35:41It's a bit grim because it's like either humanity persists in a different way or it doesn't.
35:46But I'm thinking way long term into the future here, by the way.
35:50I don't know if it would happen in my lifetime, but that's kind of the way that I frame it as it's it's inevitable because the world we live on just doesn't support infinite growth.
35:58Yeah, it is back to Dr. Tom Murphy and in that conversation, I framed a question where it's like, what timeframe do you think in and said, you know, 10,000 years?
36:08Oh, OK, well, trying to get through the day. I'm trying to get through the week here.
36:12And we're thinking about 10,000 years and the the impacts that we're having.
36:16So, you know, I do want to say there was he wasn't feeling dire about anything.
36:21He said, this is our reality. We just need to be aware of it.
36:24And then we need to make choices. And so the choices that, again, the three of you and so many others are making right now are creating the potential and the opportunity for change at a systemic level.
36:35All right. Dr. Kimabonta. So I want to come to you with with this question of degrowth.
36:42And I'm interested when you're thinking about these communities in sub-Saharan Africa and West Africa and some of these areas where we have come in time and again and told them, here's the better way to operate your life.
36:55Here's the better technology. Here's the better solution. Here's the growth. Here's the infrastructure.
36:59All these things that you need to be modernized in your way of life and your way of living.
37:05And now when we're talking about degrowth, a lot of it's going to be coming back to nature and some of the simple ways that communities have potentially survived and thrived for millennia.
37:14And now we need to go back to some of those roots and traditions. Do you see that as an opportunity where we can look to sub-Saharan Africa and the ways that people are living there as potential roadmaps to a better balance?
37:26How do you think about that?
37:29It was an interesting conversation and thank you for mentioning it.
37:33But I would like to, the idea of, you know, reducing how much we use because Victoria mentioned something about consumers have power.
37:45In economics, there's the idea of consumer sovereignty as essentially anything that is produced is because somebody is willing to pay for it.
37:53And if somebody is not willing to pay for it, it will most likely not be produced.
37:57And I think that that should be an important lever that we should use to think about some of the solutions that we want, especially in this concept of degrowth.
38:06Because it is not a new concept.
38:08You know, this Malthusian idea that the world is not enough for all of us.
38:14And I think it's this idea of availability bias because we see things, you know, we also have resource constraints.
38:20We don't think that the world or human ingenuity is unique and beautiful in itself to create alternative uses for different types of things that we need.
38:31You know, you know, when Malthus proposed this idea, that was the main thing.
38:35And even much more recently, you know, Paul Ehrlich, his book on population bomb, where he said by the year 2000 or something that London would be completely ravaged with famine and nobody would be able to eat.
38:49You know, for centuries, this idea has been debunked and it still finds its way in our conversation.
38:57The idea that there's going to be resource scarcity and people are going to die and disease is going to take over the world.
39:04But when we look at, you know, the example of Paul Ehrlich, where the economist Julian Simon said, let's make a bet, you know, in 10 years time, every single thing that you said would not be able to, we won't be able to afford become cheaper, you know, or would have found an alternative for it.
39:22And this is exactly what happened. Human ingenuity, the fact that if a resource becomes too expensive, you know, the market will signal that price to, okay, you can't use that resource anymore.
39:35You know, the idea of the capital value of an asset that's become limited in its availability rises to the roof and nobody can pay for it anymore.
39:44Hence, we want to find an alternative use of doing it as essentially what's the energy transition business is about.
39:54The fact that if at some point fossil fuels become impossible to remove from the ground, that price will rise too high.
40:01So we need to think about other types of solutions to address it.
40:05And that's why it's possible to have solar. That's why it's possible to have wind.
40:08Of course, there have been interventions of the production tax credits, feeding tariffs and all of that.
40:15But the idea essentially is that with this wind we have, this solar that we have, the marginal cost is basically zero.
40:23Hence, we just want to spend the capital cost and use it for a long period of time.
40:27And it has these problems, right?
40:28So coming back, bringing this back to Africa, bringing this back to how do we see African countries, for example, develop and what they need.
40:40I gave this example some time ago where within the same hemisphere, the same hurricane, I believe, ran through, I think, not the same hurricane.
40:52But for example, you have Houston, for example, has hurricanes that happens quite a bit, pretty frequently.
40:58You know, in the last, I don't know, in the last seven, six years, there's probably been two or three major hurricane events that have taken place.
41:04And you see that, OK, this is billions of dollars of loss in property value.
41:09A couple hundred of people die.
41:11But within a couple of weeks, everything is fine.
41:14Insurance companies have said, you know, paid what they need to pay off.
41:17What they need to pay off, people are OK.
41:19But imagine the same event taking place in a place like Mozambique, for example.
41:23You know, people are completely, you know, devastated.
41:28The ripple effect that happens over time is disease.
41:31I mean, cyclones happen a lot in Mozambique.
41:33And we've seen this happen repeatedly.
41:35There are almost no insurance structures that can help people out.
41:38There are almost no.
41:39Now we start to go online and talk about giving aid to these people.
41:43But if we can think about it this way, I think it's incumbent on us to understand the idea of the growth is maybe not the right way to go.
41:54Maybe it is, especially when we look at people who still live in poverty, people who still live in drudgery of the day.
42:02Remember, I said in this conversation, I said, you can wash your clothes.
42:06You can read a book.
42:07You can cook your food.
42:08And maybe you can even have Siri shop for you at the same time.
42:12You know, your life becomes pretty more and more efficient.
42:15But if you didn't have any of these, you had to spend hours washing your clothes.
42:19Then stop.
42:20Then go cook your food.
42:21Then stop.
42:22Then go read a book.
42:23Then stop.
42:24Then maybe go to the market to buy what you wanted to buy.
42:28Then stop.
42:29You know, your day is completely used.
42:31You're completely exhausted.
42:32You know, and to address this, you now have 55 or 60 children so they can help you out in the day.
42:37You know, and these children also born into poverty and have to go through this drudgery of getting by the day.
42:45I think that if we look at it, that we would realize that some of these Malthusian concepts are actually anti-human, anti-human flourishing.
42:53And if we think about the idea that people need to live much more effective, much more healthy, much more fruitful lives, so they can have time to do the things that are much more interesting.
43:03They can have time to listen to classical music, they can have time to, you know, they can have the privilege of being upset as to why their ketchup doesn't taste as good as, you know, the barbecue sauce.
43:14You know, and it's a funny thing, but I think it's a real thing, you know.
43:19You know, and if we can think about it that way, I think maybe because the thing about solutions that actually help make people's lives better.
43:26And if, for example, we realize that some, maybe that solution has cost, you know, some type of environmental damage or effect down the road, then people stop using it.
43:35The idea of consumer sovereignty. If people don't demand it, nobody would make it.
43:39Because if you can't sell it, what is the point of producing it?
43:42You know, the sales law of production in its own, sorry, supplies its own demand. You know, that is pretty, pretty, I think, how we should be looking at these things.
43:55And in that case, we wouldn't have conversations around, you know, the world is a finite resource.
44:00No, we can think about that humans are intuitive. Humans are, the ingenuity of humanity is also extreme.
44:08Human capacity is also extreme. Maybe we can develop that capacity and figure out alternative ways to do things.
44:13And if in the future, living a beautiful life is waking up in a hut, you know, and going to get your coffee because the robots are doing everything else for you.
44:25Maybe that's what it is. You know, you don't have to drive to work. You don't have to go through traffic anymore.
44:30And you just work out every day and you just like run and jump and, you know, and go skydiving for no reason on a Tuesday afternoon.
44:39You know, you know, maybe that's what the future is.
44:42But I think that if we can think about the solutions that way, we can think more about human flourishing.
44:47And instead of having a much more pessimistic view about human ingenuity to create the better world that we want for ourselves.
44:54Well, I appreciate the optimistic end cap here to to looking at humanity.
45:00And now I am even more torn on how dire I feel the situation is or how optimistic I can be.
45:07And again, that's that's the human reality.
45:09That's the human reality. And I appreciate this conversation, all three of you for allowing and forcing somebody like me just to reevaluate and think about the way that I go throughout my life and throughout the world.
45:23And I think that's what our audience, that's what anybody out there is hoping to allow the opportunity for those types of decisions to be made so that we can be a part of this thing called humanity.
45:33So I appreciate that. And what a great conversation.
45:37Really, really good.
45:39I got to give a lot of credit to Victoria for pulling this together.
45:43It was it was your idea, Victoria, to have this panel and have it really led by by leaders of kind of future generations who are going to be carving the way for us and building a better future.
45:54So I appreciate that. Once again, this was Powering the Future, Energy Access, Critical Minerals and Degrowth Dilemma with Victoria Cornelio Madison Harris and Dr. Tam Kimabonta.
46:06We appreciate you all for tuning in and hope you all get to make a great decision about the future of our planet and our humanity today.
46:14Cheers.
46:15Thank you, guys.
46:17Thank you very much for having us.
46:19Appreciate it.