The Congress party staged widespread protests across the country on Wednesday, rallying against what it calls a politically motivated move by the Centre.
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00:00Good evening girls, you're watching To The Point. I'm Preeti Chaudhuri.
00:02The big story that developed today was the entire Congress top brass along with the Congress cadre
00:08holding massive protests outside ED offices across the country.
00:12The reason because the ED has lodged their first charge sheet
00:17where it came down to the National Herald case against Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi.
00:23That's what we're going to debate. But first up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:30Congress stages massive protests over ED charge sheet against Gandhi's National Herald case.
00:35BJP says Gandhi's will have to give answers.
00:37Karge accuses BJP of vendetta politics.
00:42Robert Wadra quizzed for six hours in Haryana land deal case by the enforcement directorate
00:48summoned for round three of questioning tomorrow.
00:54Supreme Court likely to pass interim order in anti-Vakf amendment hearing tomorrow.
00:59Supreme Court will give order on three issues, including denotification of Vakf properties
01:05and inclusion of non-Muslims in Vakf war.
01:11Mamta blames BJP for instigating riots.
01:14Claims BJP BSF plot.
01:16Bengal BJP chief Sukanta reaches police headquarters with violence victims.
01:20Sukanta blocked from meeting DGP.
01:23Lingayat vocal ligga groups oppose Karnataka caste censors' plan own surveys.
01:36Karnataka Congress MLA demands Lingayat ministers' resignation over caste surveys.
01:41CGI Sanjeev Khanda recommends appointment of Justice B.R. Gawai as next chief justice.
01:53We have all started yesterday evening when news broke at about 6 p.m.
02:08that the enforcement directorate will or has filed its first charge sheet
02:12when it came down to the National Herald case against Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi.
02:17What ensued after was complete mayhem and protest.
02:21The entire Congress top brass got together and called that political vendetta.
02:26What we saw through the course of the day was the Congress protesting outside ED headquarters across the country.
02:32The Congress has said they are going to scale up protest in days to come.
02:36On the other hand, the BJP says no political vendetta, due process.
02:45Congress workers, top leaders, take to the streets.
02:50Reason, protest against the ED charge sheet filed against Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in the National Herald case.
02:58Dramatic visuals of protests, a show of strength, slogan-a-ring, push-back, barricades breached.
03:07Many top leaders were detained by cops.
03:09There are no transactions, no loan-in-line, no share of money, no share of money.
03:18The Congress leadership has done this for a hundred years before.
03:23Congress party's support and the Congress party has also entered full of the contract.
03:25In this sense, it is a non-profit entity that is a non-profit entity.
03:28In this sense, no income or money or money is not allowed to pay.
03:32Why do you want to pay money?
03:33The money was made for the money.
03:34This is a politically motivated case which agencies want to prove to the agencies.
03:38The ED in its charge sheet has named Sonia Gandhi as accused number one and Rahul Gandhi as accused number two.
03:47Gandhi family loyalists, Sam Pitroda and Suman Dube are also accused in the case.
03:53The ED has accused the Gandhis of money laundering, tax evasion and financial irregularities in the takeover of Associated Journals Limited by the Young Indian, the private firm controlled by Sonia and Rahul Gandhi.
04:08They are working to do a lot of democracy. They don't want to do a lot of democracy.
04:16The approach they have made is a very dangerous approach.
04:22In all places, they are working to do a lot of democracy.
04:25They are trying to get rid of the people. They are trying to get rid of the people.
04:31This is a bad case. There is no doubt.
04:34foreign
05:03BJP supporters put up posters in Mumbai demanding bulldozer action against properties linked to the National Herald case.
05:12While the protests rage, one thing is clear.
05:15Nothing unites the Congress top netas shoulder to shoulder with their cadre, but an attack on its top leadership.
05:23The Congress calls it political vendetta, the BJP due diligence.
05:28The optics from both sides are booming.
05:32That is our top focus on To The Point this evening.
05:36All right, let's cut across right now to Dr. Shamba Mohammed, National Spokesperson, Congress.
05:48We'll also cut across to our other, we'll also cut across to our other spokespersons,
05:54R.P. Singh, National Spokesperson, BJP, Neerja Choudhury, Senior Journalist and Columnist.
05:59You know, Dr. Mohammed, my first question is, and you know, don't take it otherwise, but many would suggest that one thing that actually unites the Congress and its leaders and actually makes them take to the streets shoulder to shoulder along with the cadre is when there is an attack on the Gandhis.
06:17It doesn't quite happen when there is a protest against unemployment or any other protest.
06:22No, I don't agree with you, Kreeti. We have protested against unemployment.
06:28We have protested against money. We have done all, always. We have been protesting.
06:33And of course, when our leadership, when Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi is falsely accused, falsely accused, you know, we will protest.
06:42I have seen them when one says a word against Mr. Modi, they arrest them. We didn't do that from 2004 to 14. We didn't go and bulldoze people's houses.
06:53We never arrested, put journalists behind bars under UAPA. We never did that. Of course, we will protest because this case is completely false.
07:02Let's understand one very important thing. Where is the money trail? We have been asking them, sure, if it's a money laundering case, there should be money trail.
07:12There should be proceeds of the crime. Young India is a company which is formed under Companies Act 25 in which you cannot transfer money.
07:24The shareholders don't get dividends. You cannot transfer assets. So what are they talking about?
07:30And if you recall, nearly two years ago, they were called for questioning, Mrs. Gandhi as well as Rahul Ji.
07:38They went to the ED office. They're ready for all that. They never ran away from these questioning.
07:43All of a sudden, then why didn't you file a charge sheet then? All of a sudden, you file a charge sheet when you want to divert attention from what is happening in this country.
07:52The most important thing is there is unemployment. The GDP is down. You have this issue with tariffs with America.
07:59So this is causing a huge problem. And of course, when you want to divert and various communal issues in the country.
08:08So when you want to divert from the major issue, this is what they do.
08:12And this time, we will be continuing our protests. I was protesting today. I was detained today. We will continue the protests tomorrow also.
08:19And let me tell you, the police people have been, you know, they are not kind to you.
08:25They pull you up.
08:27Your time is up. I'll come back to you.
08:29Dr. Mohamed, I'll come back to you. Each panelist is getting two minutes in this debate.
08:33I want to cut across to R.P. Singh from the Bharatiya Janata Party.
08:36R.P. Singh, the charge is very clear that the Congress, you just heard the spokesperson, that not only is it vendetta politics,
08:43because the Congress will fight, you know, the case, the National Herald case politically and legally.
08:49So they are calling it political vendetta. It is a witch hunt.
08:52There is no truth in the charges. And all of this is diversionary tactics, nothing else.
08:57Well, thank you, P.T. I thought you will give her more time because she has to answer a lot of questions.
09:06But anyhow, tell me one thing. Who paid money for Young India Private Limited?
09:12The boot money was paid by whom?
09:15If an industrialist in the country, amount to some 50 lakh rupees.
09:20And for what? For possessing assets for 2,000 crore rupees?
09:25Which political party, which political party in the world has ever donated money to a private entity?
09:34Private entity. And that to a private limited company?
09:37And that to some 90 crore rupees, which was later on waived off, which was said, no, you don't need to pay it back also.
09:44I've never heard this in the political history of the world.
09:47None of the political parties have ever paid money, not for that any penny to any private limited company.
09:56Rather, they take donations. It's happening the other way around.
09:59Thirdly, there were some 1057 shareholders in the company of the AGM, Associate General Limited.
10:08Was any AGM call for those members or those shareholders and was consent taken from them, yes, that we are going to do this and pass on your share to just four or five people.
10:25Out of which two will get almost 76% of the share, 38% to Sonia Gandhi, 38% to Raul Gandhiji and rest to some other colleagues and nominees of the family.
10:36The worst part is that Paramutawari's statement, who says, how can you dare to take action against Gandhis?
10:45There should be separate law for Gandhis, which is Paramutawari on the court.
10:49So that problem with that, that we are a dynasty, we are a special community or we are special beings in the world.
10:59So no action should be taken against us. And when action is not taken against the challenge, action will be taken against us.
11:05Okay. Why don't you come and arrest them? And last but not the least, this case started in 2012 when it was...
11:12Okay.
11:13The time is up, sir. I'll come back to you. I'll come back to you. You'll get your two minutes. I want to go back to Shama Mohammed.
11:19Shama Mohammed, you want to take, you know, the charges that were laid by R.P. Singh? You want to respond to that? Two minutes start now.
11:25Yeah. I hear what R.P. Singh is saying. I want to ask him very clearly. The charge sheet you have put in, there is no money trail and the proceeds of the crime. Let's understand when a case goes to an enforcement directorate, it's about money laundering. There is nothing of that. Now, Young India was formed. There was money. We don't... I mean, we...
11:47There were a lot of... The Associated Journal did not have enough money. So, the Congress party owed them some money, you know, around 90 crore to pay things and everything. It became debt.
11:59And what happened is, Young India, let's understand, if we wanted to make a profitable company, then we wouldn't have started a company under Companies Act 25. That is, Young India. That's such that it cannot... Any shareholder cannot get dividends. They cannot get salary. They cannot transfer assets. So, it was... It was that debt was converted into equity and put into this company called Young India. That's what was done.
12:25There was nothing else done over here. Everything is transparent. And any money which was given was given through checks. So, it was just to convert the debt into equity because there was a debt to Young India and nothing, no property. He says, there is property of thousands of crores, 2,000 crores. And show it to us, no. Show us in the chart sheet all these things. I'm asking him one question again and again. Where is the money trail? Where is the money trail and the proceeds of the crime?
12:53These two things that you are not able to do, number one. Number two, we would have then started not a company in Company Act, according to Company Act 25. That was... We could have just started according to a normal company where it's a profitable company. So, that we did not do.
13:09And when our leader is falsely accused, we will fight because my leader, Rahul Gandhi, whether it is Manipur, whether it is Hathras, whether it is GST, he protests and he's always there. So, we stand by our leader. Whereas, Mr. Modi, if somebody says anything against him, you're putting him there.
13:29Okay. All right. You know, I'm going to give two minutes to R.P. Singh and then we're going to introduce Ashutosh and Rajat Sethi into this conversation.
13:36Two minutes for you, R.P. Singh, to respond to the charges of Shama Muhammad and I'll bring in our other two guests.
13:42Well, there are... EDS filed a chart sheet which category is that there have been bogus entries being made in the young India by putting some...
13:51giving some money to some... on account of some advertising, some account of some donation, some account of some salaries.
13:57So, that's what we are saying. They picked up a company which had 2,000 crore rupees asset and then the accruals from that assets would be used by who?
14:05Who will take the call on that? Obviously, the people who hold the major stakeholders in the company, that is Rahul Gandhi and Soniaji.
14:12So, if they are going to do that, so this is how the money will be used. And also, ultimately, who will have the right over the properties?
14:21It's not the Congress party. It's not the associate general. It's not the original stakeholders, original shareholders of the company.
14:29It's just the dynasty who will have the control on the company. And dynasty will decide how to use properties, where to use properties and also there is no newspaper being published in those premises now.
14:44There's no printing which is happening in those premises now. It's all just a property business now.
14:51It's purely a property business now, where you rent out properties, that big parcel of offices and land which you have, the built-in offices, to various people.
15:03And then, as I said, use that money for whatever rejecters you want to use. I'm not saying personal or political, but whatever rejecters you decide.
15:13So, it's a clear money trail. And then, a chart sheet has been filed on the money trail also, that how the accruals have been misused by the Congress party.
15:23But they don't have to get into this. But this is very easy. And then, they're not answering.
15:28Why would an industrialist lend you 50 lakh rupees in 2008 to start a company?
15:34If that was so much, then why didn't Congress pay the young India also?
15:39They could pay 90 crore rupees to get to waive of the ADL loans.
15:44So, why not also...
15:46Your time is up, R.P. Singh. Okay, Shama Mohammed wants to respond, but I want to get in our other two guests.
15:51We have Ashutosh as well as Rajat Sethi, who will be joining us in just a short while.
15:55Ashutosh, a lot of political posturing in midst of all of this.
15:58A question that I began asking Shama Mohammed right in the beginning.
16:01You know, nothing quite unites the Congress more than an attack when it comes down to the Gandhis.
16:07You don't see them come together, and I'm sure Shama Mohammed will have a problem with that,
16:11come together on other issues as vehemently and, you know, the way they come together when the Gandhis are attacked.
16:19That aside, political vendetta, you know, the Congress claims that.
16:24The BJP on the other side is saying due diligence. Look, you know, what the EDs say.
16:28See, I think, Priti, the word has moved too much since 2014.
16:36Nobody these days believes if enforcement, the R.C.B.I. or the Police Income Tax is doing anything against the opposition leaders.
16:43Because the overwhelming number of cases against the opposition leaders have been seen from the political prism.
16:50But hardly any BJP leader has been booked under the ED or the enforcement or the CBI or anything else.
16:57And that's put the entire credibility of enforcement directorate, whether it is with Sonia Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi, is into jeopardy.
17:06So the fact of the matter is that it is basically the enforcement directorate and the government agencies who are suffering from a severe credibility crisis.
17:14The point number two, in this matter, if you take the Sonia Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi's case, now the issue is what they have done, what they have not done is not an issue.
17:23The ED has to prove whether the money has been laundered or not.
17:26And if laundered from where to where, whether it is through the Havala transaction or from the foreign country into this country, that has to be proved.
17:34Till now, no evidence is shown by the enforcement director that something like this has happened.
17:41The point number three, if the opposition wants to hit the street, wants to agitate, it is the democratic right to do it.
17:47And the Congress has every right to do it.
17:50The fourth point is, is it just a coincidence or something else?
17:53Because in the last one week, if you see the property of National Herald in Mumbai, Delhi and Lucknow, estimated to be something around 661 crore, has been attached.
18:06Then Robert Barda suddenly out of nowhere has been called by the ED and is being quizzed.
18:12And then the Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi has been charge-seated.
18:15So all these three things suddenly happening, is there any link between these two or there is something bigger politics behind it?
18:22I do not know.
18:23But suddenly, I personally feel this is not a coincidence.
18:26There is certain politics behind it.
18:29Okay, so what is that conspiracy theory?
18:31We are going to circle back to you.
18:33But Rajat Sethi, you know, there is a point that Ashutosh is making.
18:36You know, one just looks at the number of cases that the ED has opened against the opposition vis-a-vis the one it's closed or are in cold storage,
18:44where it comes down to those who have joined, you know, the NDA fold.
18:48You know, this question is a cliche, which has been asked many a times over.
18:52But ultimately, does Mako fit somewhere that we'll twist the cord, we'll keep the case open and we'll see where it goes?
19:00Well, the bane of India's...
19:02There's a problem.
19:09Rajat, there's a problem with your output.
19:11We're going to try again.
19:12Do we have you, Rajat?
19:14Me?
19:17All right.
19:17We're going to...
19:17I think there's...
19:20Rajat, can you hear me?
19:26Rajat, are you with us?
19:27Okay, there's a problem with your...
19:29Okay, we do have you, Rajat.
19:31Go ahead.
19:31Two minutes.
19:32Start now.
19:34Yes.
19:35So, see, this has been the bane of our, you know, the legal system, investigation system,
19:41that cases tend to drag.
19:43It is a matter of fact.
19:44And, you know, we can go about, you know, we can spend a lot of time on that.
19:49But this is where the state of affairs is.
19:51However, you know, from public knowledge of things that are out there in public domain,
19:55it does raise ample amount of suspicion on the Gandhis and the Gandhi family per se.
20:02And I think when a charge sheet is submitted, that is reaching, taking things to a tipping point
20:08where the prudence and, you know, public discourse suggests that you need to step out.
20:13Step down.
20:14Rahul Gandhi here doesn't hold a public office, but he is the LOP.
20:17Charge sheet is that trigger point which historically, even LALPRIS, NADVANI and others,
20:22whenever there is a charge sheet and prime of SI, there are ample number of dots which
20:26connect in a very ugly way.
20:28That should be a signal to the politician, be it of any hue and colour, they should step
20:33down, allow free and fair elections, free and fair investigations to continue, and the
20:39court should seize the matter and take it to a logical conclusion.
20:42I personally feel that enforcement directorate should have done this entire process much
20:48more quickly so that Congress doesn't get a chance to point out that there is some
20:54malafide intentions of the ED, which in all likelihood doesn't even exist.
20:58It's just the slow process of ED.
21:00Therefore, ED should have done this.
21:02That is my submission.
21:03However, I still believe enforcement directorate, if it has filed the charge sheet, it is ample
21:09ground for them.
21:10For public property sense, they need to step down from whatever offices they are occupying
21:14in a political party.
21:16Therefore, Rahul Gandhi should immediately resign as the LOP and allow any other Congress leader
21:20to come in and take charge of the leader of opposition in the Lok Sabha.
21:24This is what I feel.
21:24All right.
21:26You know, I just want to also, but Rajat, you know, and I'll circle back to you on this.
21:30You know, we don't really have to go far.
21:32There was a ED charge sheet of money laundering filed against Rhea Chakravarti.
21:36We all know what came down to that.
21:38We also live in a world where charge sheets are taken as gospel truths, and maybe they
21:41shouldn't have been, but taken with a pinch of salt.
21:44So to ask somebody to demit office at the basis of a charge sheet, you know, is debatable,
21:50and that's what we are debating today.
21:51And I'll circle back to you on that.
21:52Where it came down, you know, viewers, I just want to give a, you know, a factoid or
21:57a figure there, and I'll bring in Shama Mohammed into this conversation as well.
22:00Just the last, you know, data that we have is that the ED had initiated 121 cases against
22:08politicians, where India is concerned, of course, with 115, which is 95 percent involving
22:13opposition leaders and six involving those of the NDA.
22:17Just a figure for our viewers to chew on.
22:20And I will come back to both R.P.
22:22Singh and Rajat Sethi on this.
22:24But Shama Mohammed, there was, you know, a certain point that R.P.
22:27Singh had, point by point rebuttal of what you said, especially when it came down to acquiring
22:34the property at a particular sum and of what it was worth.
22:39Okay, I'm just coming to R.P. Singh, refer that to Rajat.
22:43He says ED has chart-sheeted and he, they must, you know, resign, he must resign.
22:49On that two points.
22:50One, we never said Ajit Pawar was correct.
22:53Prime Minister of India, the Chief Minister of Maharashtra, Devendra Padnavis, there was
22:57a chart-sheet on him also by the ED.
23:00What happened?
23:01Why did you close it?
23:02I want to know that.
23:03Why is it that when Ajit Pawar became an alliance partner of the present dispensation,
23:09the Bhatia Janta Party in Maharashtra became the Deputy Chief Minister, you close the case.
23:15So, in that way, even there are many more Shiv Sena leaders, you know, I can go to Suvindu
23:20Adhikari, Himanta Biswasa Sarma.
23:22So, the problem is the minute you join that the ED's chart-sheet just disappears.
23:26Number two, if that is the case, then when Atil Bihari Vajpayee questioned Modi on 2002
23:33riots and said, remember your Rajdharma, Narendra Modi should have resigned that day.
23:37Why didn't he not resign as the Chief Minister of Gujarat, if that is the case?
23:42That was questioned by the Prime Minister of India and by a leader of the Bhatia Janta
23:49Party, not from the opposition, about the Rajdharma in 2002.
23:52Now, I want to clear on the 50 lakhs which he spoke about, R.P. Singh, is that the, R.P. Singh,
24:00sorry, that was given back in the check, by check itself, please go and check it out if
24:05you do not know.
24:06Also, the properties are still owned by Associated Journal and not Young India.
24:12So, you know, these stories which you keep going on and again I am asking, the chart-sheet
24:17in a money laundering case, the most important thing is the money trade and the proceeds of
24:23the crime.
24:23It is not there in the chart-sheet.
24:25Where are the proceeds of the crime?
24:28How do you get the proceeds of the crime?
24:30When it is a company where the government of India has registered it, all right, has registered
24:36Young India and the company is at 25.
24:38So, there is no transfer of money, there is, nobody is getting salary, there are no dividends.
24:44So, my question here is, R.P. Singh, you can say whatever you want.
24:49I am asking you one thing.
24:51Show me the money trade.
24:52Okay, okay.
24:53One second.
24:53All right.
24:54R.P. Singh, one second.
24:56Ma'am, I will come back to this.
24:57No point.
24:57Your fader is going to go down.
24:58I am going to bring in R.P. Singh into this conversation.
25:01R.P. Singh, you know, there can be a lot of rhetoric.
25:03And, yes, you know, the BJP has every right to raise it because if there is a charge sheet,
25:09like I said, you can't take it as the gospel truth, but why shouldn't it be investigated?
25:13And, you know, and truth will prevail.
25:14It did so in a Ria Chakravarti case where, of course, the ED had filed a case against Ria
25:20on the basis of what they felt was a money laundering case.
25:24And there was a charge sheet at that.
25:28P.G., you are comparing apples with the mangoes.
25:31How, sir?
25:31Please, can I, I'm asking, ma'am, it's my time.
25:35Let me complete.
25:35Sure.
25:36And then you can interrupt.
25:37Please, I give you all the right to, and I never interrupt.
25:41So, the reason is that this is a case of where a political party is, the leaders of the
25:49political parties are trying to acquire, have acquired a company with intention of the
25:54properties which is there as a company.
25:56As I said, there are cases of some 18 crore donation, bogus donations, some unjust part
26:02of the charge sheet, I will appreciate, 38 crore rent and some 29 crore tracing spent on
26:08investment.
26:08So, that's how you manipulate the ownership of the company.
26:12That's what has been charged.
26:15And this clearly shows this.
26:17After all, ED would have gone through the details and would have filed part of it and they charge
26:21it only.
26:22That, yes, there are money trails also.
26:24So, but the bigger issue is, but I repeat again, that why does Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi
26:32need to take over a company which was already run by the company which was formed by Nehruji
26:38at a given time, some 1057 shareholders?
26:41Was any AGM called of those 1057 shareholders and out of that, two very prominent people
26:50have also gone on record, Justice Karju and one more gentleman who has gone on record and
26:58said that, yes, we were never asked to transfer our shares and we were not even taken into
27:05loop to transfer the shares.
27:06So, there's a lot of grey areas, there are a lot of areas which need to be further investigated
27:13and also where the Congress need to answer and then they have gone to the court to quench
27:18the case, not once, four times.
27:20And court has rejected their pleas to quench the case.
27:24Court has only given them relief for personal appearance and I said that, yes, you can be
27:28out on bail.
27:29Your time is up.
27:30I'll come back to you.
27:32Sir, you know, like I said, it's a charge sheet.
27:34These are charges.
27:35This is not the gospel truth and you have every right to raise it and urge that we get
27:41to the bottom of this and if found guilty, then stringent action must be taken.
27:46But can we take it as the gospel truth is what my question is, R.P. Singh.
27:49You are very right where you say you're comparing apples to oranges in cases, but I would reckon
27:54the sobering messaging is the same because if an individual was charge sheeted for money
27:59laundering and then later on we found that there was really nothing against her, we need
28:02to take this case also with the same amount of pinch of salt.
28:06It could be true.
28:07You know, they could be charged.
28:09But why are we taking it that it's happened?
28:12I just want to bring in Ashutosh.
28:13I'll come back to you, sir.
28:14And I know and I'll give you 10 seconds extra because I did interject you.
28:17So I will I'll give you that 10 minutes extra when I come to you.
28:20Ashutosh, I want to I want to get you back into this conversation.
28:23Why such a defense?
28:25Let the ED do what it's doing.
28:27You know, the whole projection of Rahul Gandhi is let them come.
28:30We are ready for it.
28:32Then why so much, you know, of shenanigans and theatrics?
28:36You know, why not?
28:37Why not in politics if they feel that they have a wrongly implicated?
28:42They have a right to protest on the street.
28:44And you know what is happening?
28:45I just take the take the case of him and Sorain's case in what happened.
28:49So him and Sorain was was put behind the bar, arrested just before the elections.
28:55And then he had to resign.
28:56The JMM has to choose another chief minister.
28:59He was in jail for five months.
29:01And you know what happened after that?
29:03The high court has categorically said there exist reasons to believe that Sorain is not guilty of the PMLA offense he has been accused of.
29:11Now, the high court has given a clean chit.
29:13He's saying there is no reason to believe that he's he's guilty.
29:17Now, but JMM, Hemant Sorain suffered for good six, seven months.
29:24That's that that's a precious time for any politician.
29:28Suppose in between the JMM was was a split or something that happened.
29:32So the issue is if enforcement directorate credibility is at such low point, then what others can do?
29:40And it's not only with with Hemant Sorain, even the Arvind K. J. Ival case, even the Manish Shodhya case, even the Sanjay Singh case.
29:47Every time they got bail and almost getting a clean chit on that.
29:52So the issue is if the opposition political parties or the leaders feel that they have been wrongly implicated for some political reasons.
30:00And the leaders who are who are with the BJP, like Ajit Tawar and others, nothing happens to them.
30:07They get they suddenly become clean and ED is not going after them.
30:12No charge sheet is filed against them.
30:14Then then they have every reason to to agitate and cast a person on the credibility of the government as well as agency.
30:22So I think the whole issue is is only because today nobody is willing to believe that ED is honestly pursuing the case.
30:32That's that's the unfortunate part.
30:35All right. OK, I want to bring in Rajat Sethi back into this conversation.
30:38There was a reason why I didn't name, you know, the political case studies, if one would say.
30:45But Rajat, you know, to get back, if you know, and I'm just going by data.
30:48If 121 cases are registered by the ED and 115 are from the opposition, then it only gives credence, you know, to the excuse, which you might want to call it, of a witch hunt and political vendetta.
31:01And then to ask somebody to step down at the back of it, you know, is questionable.
31:06There are two, three points here, Preeti Ji, just wanted to correct you.
31:10First of all, Ria Chakravarti was never charge sheeted by the ED.
31:14She was only charge sheeted by the NCB.
31:17There was a narcotics control vote.
31:19Please, please check it once again.
31:20ED never charge sheeted.
31:22Again, charge sheet is a tipping point.
31:24I'm again stressing on this point.
31:26Charge sheet means that there is ample amount of evidences which have been collected duly and it has followed certain set of processes.
31:34And then it goes to the necessary courts and thereafter things happen.
31:37Now, what another example that Ashutosh Ji raised was the case of Jharkhand.
31:41Now, it was made to appear as if the verdict has been given by the High Court of Jharkhand.
31:47It is what I fail to understand that why do people keep aside rationality when they come on television debates?
31:53Did the High Court give him the bail?
31:56Does bail mean that you are guilt free?
31:57I don't understand where is this discussion going on.
32:01Here, take one case in point.
32:04The simple case in point before us is that these two gentlemen, Rahul Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi, both of them have been charge sheeted by the ED.
32:14And this case, whatever facts are there in public domain, there is no observation from the court which is trying to stall the ED process or is trying to preemptively say that there is a witch hunt or there is some kind of a political vendetta.
32:27When the courts have not said anything, why are we, who are we here in guest rooms trying to, you know, scuttle the process of law and justice?
32:35Why can't we have patience?
32:37Why can't these leaders step aside and allow the free, you know, trials to happen?
32:42You are occupying an important chair, which is the chair of an LOP, which is equal to the rank of cabinet minister in our country.
32:49This is the basic property that you expect because tomorrow, if you are going to accuse the BJP on similar grounds and ask for resignation, you will not have a face to do that.
33:00And this is therefore my appeal to both Rahul Gandhi, not to Sonia Gandhiji because she doesn't occupy a public office.
33:06But Rahul Gandhi must resign as LOP.
33:08Just out of basic questions.
33:10I'm going to give all our guests, I'm going to give all our guests two minutes each to conclude.
33:14But Rajat Sethi, you may wish to check and I'll give you the exact date.
33:19June 31st, 2020, the Enforcement Directorate lodged a money laundering case against Rhea Chakravarti and her brother.
33:26It's different.
33:27Both.
33:27Case is different.
33:29Charge sheet is different.
33:30I'm talking about charge sheet.
33:32Okay, there was a case.
33:34There was a case against them, not one, multiple cases of money laundering.
33:39And I will also...
33:40By that logic, they should have been out of power, Congress Party.
33:43No, one second.
33:44You know, one second.
33:45Rajat Sethi, I'll circle back to you.
33:48Allow everybody their two minutes.
33:50You'll get your two minutes in the end.
33:51Number one, that.
33:52Number two, I don't think you reflected on the number that I gave you.
33:55If 121 cases are lodged against, cases are lodged by the ED, if 115 are only for the opposition
34:02and six where the BJP or the NDA is concerned, then you already have given enough ammunition
34:09for the opposition to raise what you might call the bogey of a witch hunt.
34:14I want to go back, give two minutes to all our panelists.
34:17Two minutes, Shama Mohammed, begin now.
34:19Make your case.
34:21Now, Rajat Sethi goes on saying about charge sheet.
34:24I want to ask him very clearly, the Prime Minister of India, let on nobody else, the
34:30Prime Minister of India said, Ajit Pawar brushed hair, uske upar edi hair, everything.
34:37Then how is that a person who is corrupt?
34:40When the Prime Minister says in a public speech, he's right.
34:43Why did he, the Prime Minister of India, make him the Deputy CM of Maharashtra or the Bhatia
34:50Junta Party?
34:51Can you answer that?
34:52Isn't that shameful when you are accusing a leader of corruption?
34:57The chief, the sitting chief minister of Maharashtra is accusing him of corruption.
35:02Then how can you make it the Deputy CM and close the case?
35:07There has to be a logic in that also.
35:09Number two, Pratap Sarnaip, the leader of Chief Sena, charge sheeted by the ED in May.
35:18And by September, when he joins, becomes part of the BJP, the Shiv Sena Shinde faction, moving
35:26from Uddav Thakre faction, closed.
35:30Can you answer that, Rajat Sethi?
35:33That is what we are asking.
35:34We want, I do not want corruption in this country.
35:38Nobody wants corruption in this country.
35:39But it has to be fair and square, the ED.
35:42The ED only goes after opposition leaders.
35:45And it does not go after, that is why we say this is an unfair case.
35:50If anybody who has an ED case, when they join the Bhatia Junta Party or the alliance, the
35:56case is closed.
35:57And everybody knows that.
35:58Why do you close the cases?
36:00Why did you make Ajit Pawar, you say, we never said Ajit Pawar is corrupt.
36:04You said it.
36:06You're close.
36:07So we know in this case, and did you read the charge sheet?
36:11Have you read the charge sheet, Rajat Sethi?
36:13I want to ask you.
36:14There are no proceeds of crime in that.
36:17Where is the money trail?
36:18I'm asking again and again.
36:20You cannot accuse my leaders of the action.
36:24Ma'am, your time is up.
36:24Your fader is going to go down.
36:26I'm going to give.
36:27Ma'am, there's no time.
36:28There's only two minutes.
36:29I'm sorry.
36:30I want to get an R.P. Singh into this conversation.
36:32R.P. Singh, I interrupted you in the beginning.
36:34You will get two minutes, ten seconds, sir.
36:36Make your case.
36:38I just need ten seconds.
36:39I give my two minutes to Shama Muhammad so that she can, she has to answer more questions
36:42than anyone else today.
36:43So our only point is that, Shama, please, I'm saying so.
36:47I'm giving you time.
36:50Don't bother.
36:51So issue is that you compared Reha Chakrabarti case.
36:56By the time you were discussing it, I googled it again.
36:58E.D. never charged with Reha Chakrabarti.
37:03He was asked.
37:03Registered a case.
37:07Yes.
37:07Case can be registered.
37:09But again, filed or not, filed, this is an issue.
37:11Case has been registered against many.
37:13And then you were talking about the E.D.'s capability.
37:1943 trial has been completed in the E.D. cases.
37:24Out of which 40 cases, there has been conviction.
37:27And three cases, they have been acquitted.
37:29Which turns out to almost 93% of the success rate of the E.D.
37:33So when you give a generic figure, there are so many thousand cases and all.
37:39The trials are not finished on those cases.
37:42The issue is whether the trial has been finished, the court takes it on time, which we can't tell.
37:46And you can't dictate codes also.
37:48But again, I reiterate that there are bogus entries.
37:52Shama Mumaji, I'll appreciate it.
37:53There are bogus entries in tune to some 18, 38, 29 codes, which are in public domain now.
37:58Please Google and search.
37:59And that's part of the E.D. charge sheet.
38:01So obviously, why you own this company?
38:04Although you know that you can't sell properties, only to manage the fund flow, which is coming from those properties.
38:11Not owning those properties.
38:12Because you as a new company can't own their property.
38:17And also, tell me, Shama Mumaji, if you open a company or I open a company, which industries will pay us 50 lakh rupees to run a company?
38:24That's a questionable thing.
38:26Tell me which industries will ever pay that?
38:29I end my point here and give that time to Shama Mumaji.
38:33Okay, one second.
38:34Also, sir, nobody was, you know, you said I was questioning.
38:37Nobody's questioning the capability of the E.D.
38:39Absolutely not.
38:40What I did, like you gave a piece of data, I gave a piece of data, which is 96% of the cases currently right now are registered more,
38:48if you look at the sum number against politicians, against the opposition.
38:52And I gave you that exact figure as well.
38:54How do 121, 115 have been filed against the opposition and six.
39:00And at the basis of that, that is the fodder with which the opposition can claim.
39:03This is a rich hard.
39:04Can I answer that?
39:05Sure, sure.
39:06Can I answer that?
39:07Yeah.
39:07Please.
39:08I mean, why you want to say that all politicians are corrupt?
39:12I mean, if there's a breed of corrupt politicians in the country, I mean, we know which party has a breed of corrupt people in the system.
39:19I mean, right from Nehru to Indra Gandhi to Rajiv Gandhi to Rahul Gandhi.
39:25Sir, the fact is, the fact is, I don't think…
39:28Give me a second.
39:29Give me a second.
39:30Give me a second.
39:30And as for Rajiv Par and other cases, because I give a challenge, you hire best of the lawyer in the country, I'll pay.
39:38I'm saying on the channel, I'll pay for the best of the lawyer.
39:40If you win, my cost.
39:43If you lose, pay double.
39:46Okay.
39:46All right.
39:47You know, that all aside, you know, there's…
39:49I didn't quite understand the defense to that.
39:52I didn't quite understand the defense to that.
39:54I was just giving a figure.
39:55R.P. Singh.
39:55That's it.
39:56Just a figure.
39:57And then there is going to be questions at the back of it.
39:59And also, I would reckon, you know, in India, no agency is above questioning.
40:05No agency at all.
40:06And nobody's questioning the credibility there.
40:08But I just want to go…
40:10Nobody's above questioning, right?
40:12I want to go to Ashutosh.
40:14Two minutes, Ashutosh.
40:15Your time starts now.
40:17See, Preeti, I was really amused when I was hearing Rajat Sethi when he was giving gyan about the charge sheet is the tipping point and everybody should resign if anybody is charge sheeted.
40:29I think he's living in the world of 1996 when the people used to be charge sheeted and used to have asked to resign.
40:35They used to resign.
40:37I'm just citing a very recent case.
40:39There was one gentleman whose name was Babu Bhai Bukhiriya.
40:43Babu Bhai Bukhiriya was a water resource minister in Mr. Narendra Modi's cabinet.
40:47He was convicted.
40:49Listen again.
40:49He was convicted into 54 crore theft, mining theft.
40:56He did not resign.
40:57Convicted for three years.
41:00Did not resign.
41:02Opposition wanted him to resign.
41:04He did not resign.
41:05Mr. Narendra Modi kept him, kept him in his cabinet till he got some bail from some court.
41:13He was convicted by the Sessions Court in 2013.
41:16So, let's not get into this kind of things.
41:20Because BJP believes nobody should resign.
41:24Rajna Singh said that there was no stipend in our cabinet.
41:25And this was the time when the BJP on a daily basis was asking UPA ministers or the leaders to resign.
41:34And then half a dozen ministers, they resigned.
41:36Because BJP wanted them to resign.
41:38But look at Mr. Narendra Modi.
41:41He did not ask resignation from the Babu Bhai Bukhiriya.
41:44He was convicted by the court.
41:46So, I think it's good to give gyan others.
41:49But look within, it's something else.
41:51We are living in an era which is controlled and commanded by Mr. Narendra Modi or Amit Shah, where resignations are not given.
42:01That was a pre-2014 politics where anybody accused, charges framed, used to resign.
42:10Not anymore.
42:11And this began from Narendra Modi's own cabinet.
42:14So, please, asking the questions.
42:16You set the parameter.
42:17You set the benchmark.
42:19All of that.
42:20Sir, time is up.
42:21Sir, time is up.
42:22Your fader is down.
42:23Two minutes, Rajat Sethi.
42:24Sir, your time begins now.
42:25Final submission.
42:27Well, Preeti ji, I will only say this thing.
42:30That we, as political analysts, when we come on television discussions, we should keep as much as possible our partisan hat outside.
42:37And try and come up with propositions which are universal in nature.
42:42Be it any party, if a charge sheet has been filed against you, out of basic morals, you should step down from whichever public office you are.
42:51You, from whichever party you are from, you should resign and quit.
42:55That should be it.
42:56Be it any Ajit Pawar, Himanto, Vishwa Sharma, anybody for that matter.
43:00But let me again tell you, again Ajit Pawar, no ED case was, charge sheet, the case was there, there were a bunch of cases, no charge sheet.
43:08And charge sheet, you cannot switch on.
43:10It's not a switch.
43:10You switch it on, it becomes active.
43:12You switch it off.
43:12It goes away.
43:13When a charge sheet is submitted, it is submitted in the courts.
43:16And after that, the courts have to step in and call out the merits of the case.
43:21Even in Himanto, Vishwa Sharma, it has gone all the way up to Guwahati High Court.
43:24And Congress spokespersons have been, there have been defamation cases against it.
43:29Because they keep bringing up this issue, as if this issue is still pending.
43:32On Himanto, Vishwa Sharma, I can categorically tell you, there is no pending case against any of the corruption cases.
43:39And most of it is being monitored by the Guwahati High Court.
43:43And it has gone through proper due processes.
43:46Till the time the Supreme Court or whichever High Court doesn't issue, you know, clearances to Rahul Gandhi and Sunia Gandhi,
43:52they should remain away from public offices out of basic morals.
43:57It has reached a tipping point, charge sheet and not case filing.
44:00Again, I repeat, when there is a charge sheet and it becomes a property of the court,
44:05this is a serious, serious tipping point.
44:08And anybody of any party should step out on his own volition, come out and resign at that very moment,
44:14and go back to the public and try and resurrect your politics of whatever is left out of it.
44:20I don't care.
44:22All right, okay.
44:23You know, I think all four of you have put your points forth.
44:25I'm going to leave it at that.
44:26The Congress has decided they are going to protest tomorrow as well.
44:30You know, we're going to keep a keen eye on all developments in this case.
44:34For now, there is a charge sheet, the first charge sheet that the ED has filed in the National Herald case against Sunia Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi and others.
44:42We'll know what comes of it in time to come.
44:44Appreciate all of you for joining us.
44:45Well, the Supreme Court rarely does it, which is to announce an interim order on certain cases, but seemingly that's what it's headed towards.
44:54The top court of the country is now hearing multiple pleas against the VAKF law.
44:58A bench of Chief Justice of India, Sanjeev Khanna, and Justices Sanjay Kumar and K.V. Vishwanathan are hearing the pleas.
45:05After hearing the argument so far, the Supreme Court has sought clarification from the Solicitor General over removal of VAKF by user.
45:12The Supreme Court said that most masjids from 15th to 16th century did not have sale deeds.
45:19The government also questioned the petitioners as to what stopped mosques from registering.
45:24The top court also questioned petitioners what if mosques on land were claimed by government.
45:29Now, according to the petitioners, the amendment will distort the religious character of VAKF,
45:34while also irreversibly damage the democratic process that governs the administration of VAKF and VAKF boards.
45:41The centre has filed a caveat in the top court so that no order should be passed without hearing it.
45:48I want to cut across to my colleague, Nalini.
45:50Nalini, you know, in all probability, we'll have an interim order that would be announced tomorrow.
45:56What are you looking out for?
45:57Because some of the observations that were made today,
46:00number one, on when the court spoke of, you know, what if you don't have Hindus on boards,
46:07religious boards of, you know, temples and other religious sites which are owned by Hindus.
46:12So why non-Muslim on VAKF board?
46:15You know, they touched on that.
46:17Number two, also very interesting where he spoke about the collectors' powers.
46:22Preeti, in fact, it's interesting because the Supreme Court was keen to pass the interim order today itself,
46:31but it was on the insistence of the central government that they agreed to conduct another hearing tomorrow at 2pm
46:38when the Solicitor General will be given an opportunity to address the court on certain issues.
46:42What are these issues?
46:43Number one, the court wanted to pass an interim order today stating that regarding any VAKF property
46:49that has been declared a VAKF property by the court,
46:52they should not be denotified after the enforcement of this act.
46:56Whether it's a property that's become a VAKF property through VAKF by user or VAKF by dean,
47:02they should not be denotified is something that the Supreme Court said.
47:05Another thing they said is that even during the time that the collector is conducting an inquiry
47:10on whether a particular piece of land is a VAKF land or a government land,
47:14it should, the provision that says that during this inquiry,
47:18the property will not be considered to be a VAKF plant should not be brought into implementation,
47:22which means that during the inquiry, it can be considered to be a VAKF property.
47:27The third thing that the Supreme Court said was regarding inclusion of non-Muslims
47:31into the boards and the councils regarding the VAKF properties.
47:34So they said that the only non-Muslims can be the ex-official members,
47:38maximum amounting to two members.
47:41All others should mandatarily be Muslim members, part of the VAKF courts.
47:46So on all these three aspects, the Solicitor General is expected to address the court tomorrow,
47:51to place the centre's defence for why these things have been brought into the place into this act
47:55and depending on that, the court is going to decide whether or not there should be a partial
48:00interim state on certain provisions of this act,
48:02some of which have been the main point of contention by the petitioners as elaborated by their lawyers today.
48:08Of all the observations that were made today, Nalini, which is most contentious,
48:14which could have a bearing on the current law?
48:18Well, pretty interestingly enough, the Chief Justice of India,
48:20as many words told the Solicitor General,
48:23that if you start demotifying these properties,
48:26especially the properties which are VAKF by user properties,
48:29because these are properties that have been declared VAKF properties by the practice of them being used as VAKF properties for a really long time.
48:38They don't have the properties or the documentation that identify them as these VAKF properties.
48:44So the CJR today, in as many words, told the Solicitor General that if you start demotifying these properties,
48:49then it's going to lead to an issue, which means that there is some strength to the arguments that have been placed by the petitioners
48:58when they say that the center should not have done away with VAKF by user altogether.
49:03So tomorrow, the most interesting aspect is going to be watching out for is whether or not the Supreme Court is going to stop the demotification of these properties
49:13that have been primarily VAKF by user properties.
49:16All right, Nalini. And if the Supreme Court does so, we don't know if it is going to,
49:20but if the Supreme Court does so, then it will have a huge bearing on the VAKF law, viewers.
49:25Nalini just explained to you how.
49:27With that, thank you, Nalini, for joining us on that.
49:30We're going to keep a keen eye on developments in the top court of the country tomorrow.
49:33Meanwhile, let's quickly shift focus to one story that has come out, which is highly disturbing.
49:38A disturbing case of sexual assault has come to light from Gurugam, Haryana, where a 46-year-old air hostess
49:47was allegedly sexually assaulted by hospital staff while she was on a ventilator.
49:53According to the victim's statement, she had come to Gurugram for a sponsored company training and was staying at a hotel.
50:01During her stay, she fell ill and was admitted to a private hospital for treatment.
50:05Due to the severity of her condition, she was placed on a ventilator.
50:09The victim alleges that during this period, while she was unconscious and unable to speak,
50:15she was sexually assaulted by members of the hospital staff
50:19and that she remained silent out of fear because of her inability to communicate at the time.
50:25Upon her discharge from the hospital on April 13th, she informed her husband about the assault,
50:30following which an FIR was registered with the cops.
50:33The police have now begun an investigation and are interrogating hospital staff.
50:38The hospital, in response, has stated that it is fully cooperating with the authorities.
50:43Meanwhile, the NCW has taken Suomoto cognizance of the case
50:47and has demanded a detailed report within three days.
50:52Bone to the police, that this case is coming in.
50:54This case is due to my