Indian Ambassador Abhay Kumar speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on How Nalanda changed the world | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversations, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:13Thank you. I am delighted to be on SAM Conversations.
00:19It is a pleasure to welcome Ambassador Abhay Kumar,
00:26also known by his pen name Abhay K.
00:32He recently authored the book Nalanda.
00:37It looks very nice. The cover looks very nice.
00:43Thank you. I am glad you liked it.
00:48The subject, let me show you, is fascinating.
00:58History, not well known, but fascinating.
01:01And all facts which Abhay K has delved into.
01:08What more? He is the son of the soil.
01:11Literally born very close to Nalanda.
01:15Yes, from Rajgir, which is just 10 kilometers away from the site.
01:22Pleasure to have you with us.
01:30He is a serving diplomat who, from his earlier post of Deputy Director General,
01:40Indian Council of Cultural Affairs, he is going as an ambassador to Georgia.
01:47Am I right to say this is the first time we have a consulate in Georgia?
01:57Right now we have, this is the first resident mission.
02:04Resident mission?
02:05Yes, yes.
02:07But we already had concurrent accreditation from Armenia.
02:16Okay.
02:17Yes.
02:18Abhay K. is not just an author.
02:21He is a poet.
02:24He is a poet with much published, you know, much published work and awards.
02:32And as far as his book goes, it's 24 pages of his introduction, followed by eight chapters, which are, I think, very, which cover a very important part of history from the fifth century Common Era.
02:57Till 17th century or so, until the 17th century, when, towards the end of the 1100s, it was plundered by Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:18Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:19Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:20Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:21One of the earlier plunderers of Sone Kichidia.
03:25And there's, I think I will, it's, it's, it's, it's time, I, I, you know, stopped and handed you over to Abhay K. Please take over and put us, put us through your eight chapters, you know, which explain a lot.
03:48Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:49Bakhtyar Khilji.
03:50So, Nalanda, the story of Nalanda begins during the time of Buddha himself, that is sixth century BCE.
03:56And Buddha, you know, comes from Kapilavastu.
04:01He, he arrives at Rajgra, which was the ancient name of present-day Rajgra.
04:08Rajgra.
04:09It was the first capital of the Magad, which became an empire later on.
04:15At the time of Buddha, it was a small, it was one of the Mahajanpadas.
04:20And Buddha comes there because Rajgra at that time is like the New York of today.
04:27Not only Buddha, but all the great philosophers are there in Rajgra.
04:32He comes to Rajgra, then on his, he, he spent some time there and then goes to Bodhgaya where he meditates and gains enlightenment.
04:42After gaining enlightenment, he goes again to, he goes to Sharnath, but comes back again to Rajgra, where he meets two of his most important disciples, Sariputra and Moghalyayana.
05:00Sariputra is not a simple disciple.
05:03He is born in Nalanda and Moghalyayana, who is his childhood friend.
05:10They are bosom buddies.
05:12And they had a pact that whoever finds enlightenment first will inform the other.
05:22And thus both of them.
05:24Are they like you born in Nalanda?
05:29Yes.
05:30So I was very fascinated what happened.
05:34So Sariputra is, he comes from the family, which is traditionally been the winners of Tark Shastra or debates in Maghad.
05:46And his father is, is not an ordinary man.
05:50He's a very well-learned scholar and a winner of debates in the court.
05:55So Sariputra is in search of, along with Moghalyayana, they are searching for enlightenment.
06:01They are searching for spiritual awakening.
06:04And they are disciples of a philosopher called Sanjay Belatiputta.
06:11When Sariputra hears the words of Buddha, which is Ye Dharma Hetu, he, he becomes, he achieves the first stage of enlightenment.
06:29And then along with 500 of the followers of the another philosopher Sanjay Belatiputta, he goes to Buddha and becomes the disciples of Buddha.
06:43Buddha.
06:45If I may, if I may please stop you here, would you clarify Buddha that you're referring to, is it Gautam Buddha?
06:54Yes, the Gautam Buddha.
06:56The very first.
06:58Yes, so the Gautam Buddha, you know, as a reward, he makes him the first chief disciple.
07:05And Sariputra is, he becomes not only the first chief disciple, but also is known as a Dharma Senapati in Buddhism.
07:16And he plays the most important role in canonizing Buddhist, the teachings of Buddha and also formulating rules for the Sangha.
07:27So he is the right hand man of Buddha.
07:28So he is the right hand man of Buddha.
07:31Without him, Buddhism would not be possible.
07:34300 years later, when Emperor Ashoka, you know, he adopts Buddhism after the Kalinga war, he goes back to Rajgira from Patliputra and goes to Nalanda, where he erects a stupa for, in honor of Sariputra, the Dharma Senapati.
07:56Because he is the man who is responsible for the growth of Buddhism.
08:01But he is given a name, Senapati.
08:06Dharmasenapati is very, very nice combination, you know.
08:13Senapati otherwise is a commander in war or in armies.
08:19Senapati.
08:20Senapati.
08:21Anyway.
08:22He is the commander of the right action, Dharma.
08:26So, Ashoka, you know, 3rd century BCE, now we are in the 300 years before Common Era.
08:36And he makes a stupa for Sariputra and also establishes a Buddhist Vihara along with the stupa in Nalanda.
08:47And this is the site around which the Mahavihara grows later on from 5th century AD.
09:00So, we have, this is 300 years before Common Era when the Sariputra's stupa is built by Emperor Shoka.
09:10Around that stupa, Vihara has come up first of very several materials.
09:17And it goes on for hundreds of years.
09:20You know, 300 years later, we have one of the greatest philosophers of all time, Nagarjuna, coming to Nalanda.
09:28Nalanda, yes.
09:29Yes.
09:30He is not from Magad.
09:31He is from South India.
09:33He is from the Bidharva region.
09:35So, he does not speak Magadhi, you know, which was the language of Buddha.
09:39Yes.
09:40He speaks Sanskrit.
09:42And he comes up with this great philosophy of Sunyavad or Madhyamaka.
09:51So, that is the software or philosophical foundation of Nalanda.
09:58He lays the philosophical foundation of Nalanda.
10:01And he not only lays the philosophical foundation, but he also authors Pragya Paramita Sutras, which are the key sutras for the Mahayana Buddhism.
10:14And though he writes himself, he attributes these sutras to Bodhisattva Abalokiteshwara.
10:21And he says that these were given by Bodhisattva Abalokiteshwara to Shariputra on Griddhakut Parvat in Rajgira in 6th century BC itself.
10:33So, he antiquates it 600 years before him.
10:40And he says that he has merely retrieved these sutras from the Nagas, the great Nagas.
10:46Could you explain the Nagas?
10:52So, Nagas, you know, there is a cult of Naga worship in ancient India.
10:58It predates Hinduism, predates Buddhism and all religions.
11:03I request you because Naga is a term given to tribals in the Northeast also, you know.
11:09Right.
11:10So, Nalanda is a place blessed by a Naga.
11:14And that's why it's known as Nagananda, Naga Ananda, where Naga is blessed or Naga is pleased.
11:23Naga the serpent.
11:26Yes.
11:27The serpent.
11:28The serpent.
11:29Yes.
11:30Yes.
11:31You have the serpent on the cover.
11:33And not only that, as per the legends, Nalanda is actually a serpent.
11:40It's the name of a serpent who lives in a pond full of lotus and surrounded by mango groves.
11:50So, that's what Nalanda is.
11:53That's what Nalanda is.
11:54So, this is a place which is, even today, if you go to Rajgira, you will find a Mamyarmath, Maniyarmath, which is worship of the Nagas or worship of the serpents.
12:06So, whole area in Magad, serpents were worshiped.
12:11And not only in Magad, but before, throughout India actually.
12:16So, even early Buddhism, you have lots of trees and serpents because Buddha is not depicted in his image form for a long time.
12:25Right.
12:26So, this has been worshiped in Hinduism since Hinduism began.
12:33Yes.
12:34Even today.
12:35The Nagarjun word comes from Nagarjun.
12:40Right.
12:41Right.
12:42But Hinduism itself comes much later.
12:44There is no word Hinduism during the time of Buddha.
12:48Yes.
12:49Or even during, even in the 5th century AD, there is no word Hinduism.
12:54So, Hinduism, I mean, Hindu word itself is a geographical denomination, you know, used by…
13:01Which comes from Sindhu.
13:03It's a corruption of Sindhu.
13:06Sindhu.
13:07Yes.
13:08So, the word Indus itself is a corruption.
13:12Correct.
13:13Correct.
13:14Yes.
13:15Yes.
13:16It's from that river.
13:17The Sindhu river.
13:18Right.
13:19We believe our civilization began.
13:23Exactly.
13:24So, so that's, so everybody who lives this side of Sindhu is a Hindu.
13:30And it's a geographical denomination.
13:33And earlier, I mean, so serpent were worshipped, you know, by the people, you know, people who lived in this land.
13:42So that's, so that's the story I tell, you know, in the first chapter, which is how Nalanda and Rajgira are like twins, you know, they are, they complement each other.
13:52They are like one sacred geography, you know, along with Bodhgaya.
13:57So, so that's the, the first, the importance of Nalanda.
14:01So, because of Shariputra, because of Buddha, who himself spent many years visiting Nalanda, preaching there, Nalanda becomes an important sacred place.
14:14And not only Buddha, but before him, the worship of the Nalas there, Mahavir himself achieved Nirvana in Nalanda itself, you know, in Pavapuri, which is part of Nalanda.
14:27So, you have not only Buddha himself and Shariputra, but Mahavira as well, but also other Makkai Gosal, other philosophers also frequenting Nalanda.
14:39And this is a very sacred place even today, where you have, you know, sun worship these days.
14:46So, Nalanda remains an important place by all, you know, from the sacred point of view.
14:55Now, the second chapter, I tell the story of the, these two legend, legendary sons of Nalanda, Moghlyayana and Shariputra.
15:05What was their life like? How did they grow? What was their, you know, where, what were their teachings? What contributions did they make?
15:14And to three of them, you know, Buddha, Shariputra and Moghlyayana has known as three friends in Thailand and in Southeast Asia.
15:24In Nalanda, people have forgotten about Shariputra. Nobody, I had no idea about Shariputra, you know, until I started listening for this book.
15:33And, but, Shariputra is a celebrity in Southeast Asia. His, Shariputra and Moghlyayana are sacred figures.
15:42So, recently, when the remains of Shariputra and Moghlyayana was taken to Thailand, thousands of people thronged the streets.
15:49When was this?
15:51This was, I have written in the book, it was last year.
15:56Wow. 2024?
16:00Yes. Yes. So, they are venerated there and they are great figures.
16:07So, are we to thank you. Are we to thank you for the clarification that Nalanda first means a Naag, you know, a snake.
16:17Right. Right. True that.
16:19And that it began as Buddhist.
16:23Yes. Yes. Yes. So, it began. Exactly. So, am I right to say that this was not made clear by earlier writers or?
16:35Right. Right. No, no. It's very clear. It began as a Buddhist place because its physical foundations are led by Emperor Ashoka by building the stupa of Sariputra there.
16:50And Buddha himself, you know, who visited there, prayed there, preached there. And the place he preached is called Mool Gandha Kuti.
17:05And the Mool Gandha Kuti and Sariputra's stupas are not far from each other. They are located very close to each other.
17:12And so you have, but the physical foundations are led by Emperor Ashoka. And then the philosophical foundation of Nalanda is led by Nagarjuna in the first to second century AD, Common Era CE.
17:29So, then in the fifth century CE, Common Era, you have the first concrete planned vihara being founded by the Gupta, Kumar Gupta I or Skanda Gupta.
17:44So, he founds in 427 CE, he founds a physical, I mean physical means concrete structure made of bricks, a stupa, not a stupa, a vihara, you know, vihara for…
17:59Vihara, the present word vihara, vihara comes from…
18:04Vihara, yes. Vihara.
18:06Vihara.
18:07Exactly. So, that is founded in 5th century CE. And from 5th century onwards, you have Nalanda developing as a mahabihara. So, one after another, one after another, many vihara's are built and you have a row of vihara's.
18:25Ro means they are all in linear pattern in one form. So, one side you have the row of vihara's and the other side you have the row of temples. So, Sariputra the stupa itself, you know, after seven phases of constructions becomes a temple, it becomes a chatya.
18:44And you can, you know, the tallest structure even today at Nalanda is actually Sariputra's stupa. And you can still…
18:55How high would that be?
18:57It's a… it's very high. In fact, even after… even after ruin… in the ruin form, it's the… it was the great central tumulus. It was the… it was the highest, you know, rising tumulus or mound.
19:15Approximately, approximately, like… what can you compare its height to?
19:20I think it would be over 100 meters, you know, this one, even in the ruin.
19:27All these stupas are… apart from their spiritual, you know, the spiritual source, they are an architectural… each of them is an architectural work also.
19:43Yeah, truly. And particularly the Nalanda one, because Nalanda, Sariputra's stupa led to the evolution of Panchayatana architectural form.
19:53And Panchayatana architectural form is what you can see today at the Mahabodhi temple in Bodhgaya.
19:59It's a… it's the… you have one shrine, main shrine in the center. And then you have four smaller shrines as pillars, you know, or as subsidiary shrines.
20:12And they are connected with the Pradakshina path or circumambulatory path. So this… this architectural form evolves in Nalanda at that Sariputra's stupa.
20:24And if you can imagine the… a giant Mahabodhi temple, that was Sariputra's stupa in its heyday. So… and other temples, which were like a row of temples, which were as large as that.
20:42And there… even today, if you go and visit the ruins of Nalanda, you will see how large the plinths are. Like the… the base is so… so huge, so large, that imagine the height of those temples. They would be really… truly remarkable.
20:57You know, it is… it is fascinating to think… to try to think about the origin of thousands of temples made all over, you know, all over the… physically, geographically, what is India today or Bharat. And then even outside Bharat in the… made by the same… by the same people.
21:22Correct. So you also have… the world's largest Buddhist complex is in Borobudur, Indonesia. And the architectural plan of… it's a three-dimensional mandala. And the architectural plan of that mandala evolves at Nalanda in Vajrayana Buddhism.
21:44So you have, you know, the blueprint of the three-dimensional mandala being developed at Nalanda. And which gives rise later to the largest structure, Buddhist structure in the world in Borobudur.
21:57So… so… so… so… so… so this… that I'll come to the… later on. But the third chapter, you know, is about…
22:06Borobudur. Pardon me, when they say Borobudur, does it mean… does it mean… has something to do with the… the largest? Borobudur?
22:16Borobudur? It's… it's… yes, it's like… it's like the large Buddha, you know…
22:23There you are. Bado. Bado. Bado, you know. Bado, Bado. Yes, yes. So… and Budur is like Buddha, you know. So, it's a giant, you know, Buddhist site.
22:35So, obviously, there are connections. But the third chapter in this book, I deal with the… who were the great masters of Nalanda?
22:44Who were the teachers? Who were the students who made Nalanda such a great place of learning?
22:51So, this is a very important question to ask, because we have forgotten about them.
22:57So, then I, you know, take… take the readers through the lives of these…
23:03You know, you have a very long list there. It was very interesting to go through that list.
23:08Right. So…
23:10Nalanda is one…
23:12Yes.
23:13It makes me feel very proud that I… my name has Bhatt in it.
23:18Right. So… so… so this is, you know, this is a great legacy of Nalanda, that we should not forget our masters, you know,
23:26great masters, you know, great masters, because they have made huge contributions in every possible field,
23:32whether it be mathematics, metaphysics, chemistry, alchemy, science, astronomy.
23:39They have… they have done… they have made tremendous contribution.
23:43And it is because of these people, Nalanda became such a famous place.
23:47So, people like Dharmakirti, or Deena Naga, or Santa Rakshita, or Atisha, or Guru Paddama Sambhava, all these, you know, all the scholars who came to Nalanda.
24:04Basu Bandhu.
24:05So, all these great people who taught there, who lived there, and who are, you know, there are many small stupas made in their honor.
24:17These are known as votive stupas. So, which you can see in the book, in the picture section.
24:22Yes, yes, yes.
24:24There are photos. So, I deal… I examine their lives, you know, give a detail of… and my wish is that, you know, someone… if someone could write a book on each one of them, you know, and make a film on each one of their lives, you know, whatever their contribution.
24:44That would be the true, real change which this book can lead to. So, that we are more aware of our ancient history.
24:52We only know a few people from that period, but these are the ones we should be more aware of.
24:59We should create also monuments for each one of them, you know, life-size images.
25:05And these could be in the streets everywhere, because we have forgotten them.
25:10And even in Nalanda, I told you, I had no idea about Shariputra, forget about Dharmakirti.
25:16I learned about Dharmakirti from Octavio Paz, the poet, because he was talking about Dharmakirti in his book, In Light of India.
25:25So, this is very important.
25:29Then, in the fourth chapter, I deal with the foreign scholars who came to study at Nalanda.
25:35And most of us only know about Swensang and Itzing.
25:41You know, these are the two scholars we know of.
25:44And in passing reference, Fahyan, you know.
25:48But these were not the only scholars who visited Nalanda from abroad.
25:54There are many more scholars who came, thousands of scholars came to study at Nalanda.
25:59And Itzing, you know, he has written a book called, on the biography of 56 monks who he met during his stay at Nalanda.
26:16And I have tried to give a brief description of the lives of these monks.
26:22And these were only in 10 years period when Itzing was in Nalanda.
26:28Imagine the centuries of information we have no access to.
26:33Itzing came in 7th century. Swensang came in 7th century.
26:39But we have no account of 8th century, 9th century, 10th century, 11th century, 12th century, 13th century.
26:46We don't have any account of those periods.
26:49And only 10% of Nalanda has been excavated.
26:52So, 90% of the university remains to be excavated.
26:58So, imagine how much information is buried there.
27:03So, I have given an account of the lives of these people in the 4th chapter.
27:09In the 5th chapter, I deal with the rise of Nalanda.
27:15The rise in the sense, how it became such a great university.
27:19What led to its growth?
27:29So, one of the reasons for its growth was its proximity to power.
27:34It was close to both Patliputra, Rajgra, the ancient capital by then.
27:42By 5th century, Rajgra was no more the capital.
27:45It was, but it was still an important place.
27:48It was one of the key cities of Magad.
27:51And it was also a sacred place because of Buddha giving,
27:57starting the second turning of the wheel at Griddhikutt Parvat.
28:01And his key disciples coming from Nalanda.
28:06So, then the, it's also proximity close to Bodhgaya.
28:11So, you have a, here a sacred complex of Bodhgaya, Rajgra, Nalanda and Patliputra.
28:18So, these are the 4 sacred places you have.
28:22Patliputra is also center for the, you know, it's the capital where you have the key Viharas located.
28:29So, Ashoka being there and so on.
28:35So, I think we, as we are falling short of time, if you could briefly, quickly, you know,
28:44give how it was, it's unfortunate destruction came.
28:49And how for the second time, as late as 2010, when there was an attempt to resurrect it,
28:59again it unfortunately went into wrong hands or as reported.
29:05So, see, the Nalanda, there's a, there's a two things here, you know,
29:12there's a decline of Nalanda and there's a destruction of Nalanda.
29:16So, Nalanda and Buddhism had started declining even during the time of Sven Sang in 7th century.
29:24And even in 7th century, there are reports of attacks on Nalanda and on Buddhism.
29:33And slowly you have withdrawal of the royal paternism.
29:37Because Nalanda was a monastery which depended on 200 villages or 100 villages which was given to it.
29:44And slowly, because of the Bhakti movements, you know, you had the popularization of the Vedic religions and growth of the Puranic Brahmanism.
29:58So, Buddhism was losing its grip over people.
30:01And it was mainly flourishing in Magad, not in the rest of India.
30:08So, it was withdrawing to its core region from where it had originated.
30:13And Pala rulers still supported it till the 12th century.
30:19But there was a slowly decline of paternism.
30:24Then afterwards, you also have, you know, the internal fights within the Indian subcontinent
30:33and the weakening of the political and economic strength.
30:38And so, there's a, by, when the Gahala Bada, you know, Gahala Bada dynasty of Banaras falls in 1196,
30:51there's a political and economic vacuum in North India.
30:54So, you have the raiders coming from the northwest of the country.
31:00And Bhaktiar Khalji is a raider, one of them, you know.
31:03And he comes and sacks Odantpuri, the monastery of Odantpuri, which is 10 to 12 kilometers away from Nalanda.
31:13And there's a great description by the Persian historian, Minhaaz Sirazi, in his book Tabakate Nasiri, about how Bhaktiar Khalji raided and sacked the monastery of Odantpuri.
31:32Now, Odantpuri and Nalanda are located very close to each other, you know, just 10 kilometers difference.
31:40So, though there is no direct evidence of Bhaktiar Khalji going to Nalanda, but from the circumstantial evidence,
31:49it is clear that he would not spare Nalanda, which is just 10 kilometers away and which is the most famous monastery.
31:58But Bhaktiar Khalji was a raider and he was trying to, he looted all the monasteries, you know, Buddhist monasteries of Magath.
32:07And then he was trying to also go to the, to loot the Tibetan monasteries.
32:14But when he goes to, you know, towards Kamarupa or Assam, he meets a fierce opposition.
32:23Of the Ahoms. Yes.
32:28Of the Ahoms. Yes. And then he is pushed into, you know, his troops are pushed into the Brahmaputra river.
32:34Brahmaputra. Yes. And half of his troops are flown away by the currents of Brahmaputra.
32:40He somehow swims to the shore and reaches Dev court, which is, you know, where...
32:47Lachit Borofukhan. Yes.
32:49As a general, he resisted the Mughals 17 times. Right.
32:56He beat them back 17 times.
32:58That is much later. Mughals are much later. Much later.
33:01This is, this is 13th century. So, so this is, this is where, you know, you have his own second in command.
33:10His own lieutenant assassinates him because of his failures.
33:15So this is the short and sad life of Bakhtar Khalji.
33:18That's how he dies in 1206 and is killed by his own lieutenant.
33:24Now, now, you know, Nalanda outlives his raids, you know, Nalanda survives his raids, not in a full fledged way, but in a smaller way.
33:35And you have a Tibetan monk in 1235, almost 35 to 40 years of the raid of Nalanda by Bakhtar Khalji.
33:44And he gives an eyewitness account of, you know, troops from Odant Puri, now called Bihar Sharif, coming, which are Turkish raiders coming to Nalanda and raiding the monastery again.
33:59And, you know, so this is the story, but Nalanda survives them and functions for another 100 years. So, so that's, that's, that's the story.
34:10I'm afraid we'll have to end here because of our constraints for time. It's a fascinating, thank you for a very fascinating tale.
34:20And I think very, very briefly, if you can just say in a couple of lines, 2010, when it was tried to, to be revived, who are the ones responsible for its second demise, the communists and mismanagement of resources?
34:40No, today Nalanda is a fully functional university. It was, you know, it was an idea of Dr. Epizze Abdul Kalam, which was given in the Bihar Assembly, and it was supported by East Asian countries.
34:54And in fact, last year, our Honorable Prime Minister inaugurated the new campus of Nalanda University, which is fabulous, you must go and see it.
35:02But more important than that, you know, the book is, focus of the book is how Nalanda changed the world, its contributions.
35:09So, Nalanda has made fundamental contributions in shaping our world. So, whether it be Jiro, whether it is the idea of university itself evolves at Nalanda, the colleges and universities in the West, you know, today, the campuses of Oxford and Cambridge are exactly, you know, built on the model of courtyard plan of Nalanda.
35:30So, that's, that's, that's, that's what's huge contribution of Nalanda. Jiro, the world uses today comes from Aryabhat, who was the first to use it. It happened at Nalanda because the metaphysics of Sunyata and mathematics of Sunya, you know, came together.
35:46So, Nalanda has made tremendous contributions, you know, in medicine, in, in, in, in philosophy, which are still practiced in art, you know, the miniature paintings you see today, you know, and most old, oldest miniature paintings in India are actually, you know, are, are done at Nalanda.
36:06So, many other examples are there, but I'll leave the readers to, you know, read the last chapters where I tell how the Nalanda, name Nalanda is, you know, being used now in institutions and universities are being built across the world on, in the name of Nalanda.
36:26Nalanda. So, you have Nalanda, you know, you know, institutions in, in France, in, in USA, in Australia, in London, in Brazil even. So, that's the, Nalanda never died in a way that way.
36:40Thank you. Thank you.
36:43Thank you so much for having me, Nalanda, how it changed the world.