In this edition, we hear how the EU has started speed dating anyone who is open for business and about the rise and fall of Frances's Marine Le Pen
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00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly chat show about the highs and lows
00:17of EU policymaking and politics. I'm Maeve McMahan. Thanks for tuning in. Coming up this
00:23week, we need to talk about France. Since Marine Le Pen, the darling of the French far right,
00:28was found guilty of embezzlement and bans from taking part in future elections, reactions have
00:33been coming thick and fast. For some, including the US President Donald Trump and his vice,
00:39J.D. Vance, her sentence is a witch hunt by, quote, European leftists. For others, it's just rule of
00:44law in action. We hear how Brussels has been reacting and check what this all means for France
00:50and the future of the EU. And from Bern to Barbados, New Delhi to Uzbekistan, the European Commission
00:56President has visited dozens of countries already this term. Her plan? Build new win-win friendships
01:03with anyone who's open. We take a look at what direction these new alliances are taking and ask
01:08if Brussels could lose its moral compass in its quest for survival. A warm welcome to our guests
01:13this weekend, Fabrice Legerri, French National Rally MEP with the Patriots for Europe. Thank you very much.
01:18Cynthia Niwereku, Irish Fianna Fáil MEP with Renew Europe.
01:22Good to be with you.
01:23Good to be with you.
01:23Good to be with you.
01:23And Armandri Canani, Chief Spokesperson for Brussels-based think tank Friends of Europe.
01:27Thank you for having me.
01:28Great to have you all with us. But as always, before we bring in your views, let's just hear
01:33why everyone is talking about Marine Le Pen.
01:35Be outraged, said one of Marine Le Pen's deputies on French television.
01:46This came after she was barred from running in the next presidential elections amid a corruption
01:51scandal that shook her party.
01:55According to Rassemblement National, France's institutions and democracy itself have been executed,
02:02are dead or violated.
02:03And Le Pen even compared herself to the poisoned Russian opposition leader, Alexei Navalny.
02:14The court ruled that Marine Le Pen was found guilty of misappropriation of public funds.
02:20And corruption is corruption, whether politicians enrich themselves or their party.
02:27So what's next?
02:28Will Le Pen's tough sentence broaden support for her party or lead to greater fragmentation
02:36of the French far-right?
02:38Either way, it has dramatically raised the political stakes.
02:41So this is clearly a big news story here. It's a huge blow as well for Marine Le Pen. She's had
02:48her eyes on the Elyse Palace for a long time. Fabrice, that's a good friend of Marine Le Pen.
02:53Did this judgment come as a surprise to you and other party members?
02:56Well, it's not a surprise that French judges want to bar Marine Le Pen from the presidential
03:02election. But there is something which is not correct. It was said corruption. This is not about
03:08corruption. We're not talking about corruption or bribery. We're talking about a disagreement
03:13in administrative matters between the European Parliament and the Rassemblement National.
03:18Or also from millions of years here of taxpayers' money.
03:21Let me explain. Let me explain. These employees are not fake employees. So the disagreement is
03:28about the list of tasks that parliamentary assistants are allowed to carry out when they support members
03:35of the European Parliament. And I would like to point out that this is not bribery. There is no
03:40personal profit. It's not corruption. It's completely different, for example, from what
03:46happened in the Parliament with the Qatar Gate and the socialists.
03:49But it is a case that we've been following for years. It's been going on for years. Almost everyone
03:54forgot about it because it's just been going on for so long. The details, of course, you can read
03:58about that case on Euronews.com. But Dermanger, Marine Le Pen seems stunned.
04:02And she's claiming she's innocent.
04:03And also, I'm a bit stunned by your statements, I'm afraid, Fabrice, because it's like tortuous
04:08and playing with the kind of interpretation of words. When does embezzlement not constitute
04:14corruption? We're talking about 2.3 million, right, that has been embezzled for party use
04:21and party appropriation. Senior people within the party were fully aware of what was going
04:26on. The court has judged that. And what's happened is your colleague, Marine Le Pen, frustrated
04:32the legal process for over eight years. The judges have said that, that, you know, this
04:35is constantly can be delayed. And suddenly we have a judgment. And what you're saying
04:39is the judges are suddenly to blame for being politically motivated. So what message does
04:45that give to every embezzler and fraudster in Europe and the world to say, actually, I'll
04:50have 1.2 million, thank you very much. But you know what? Oh, the judgment's politically
04:54motivated. Why does it suddenly mean that because we have Marine Le Pen in the kind of,
04:59in the doghouse, if you like, in being judged, suddenly it's politically motivated. And suddenly
05:06French democracy is at part. Ask yourself this, and I will, I'll end on this. Do the
05:13French people want a convicted criminal as their president in the future? When will she
05:18then dip her hand in the tiller in public funds, given what's happened eight years ago?
05:23Let's bring in Cynthia Newarku here. How have your political group been reacting to this
05:26news? I presume there are mixed views within the group. My personal view is 100% on Darmenja's
05:33side and 0% on my fellow MEP colleagues' side. To me, this is all about democracy. This is
05:42about Marine Le Pen undermining democracy. And not only seeking to undermine, but deliberately
05:48undermining democracy and the rule of law and all of those values that I know my group hold
05:54dearly. And for me, this is not about Marine Le Pen, because she'll be replaced if she goes
05:59by the wayside. But it's about the rise of the right in Europe. And that's never good for
06:04democracy. It's never good for justice. It's never good to undermine our institutions. And
06:09we've got to ask the fundamental question here behind this story. Why is this happening? And
06:14why aren't we reacting more to dealing with the rise of the right, which is never good,
06:19as I say, for the rule of law or democracy? And how is her supporters feeling now? Will
06:23they be taking revenge, you think, for this?
06:25Well, I would like to say that this is, well, we are fighting for democracy. And why is it
06:31a politically motivated sentence in France? The judges say themselves, they don't want
06:40to, they want to charge Marine Le Pen, because they don't want Marine Le Pen to be the candidate
06:46for the presidential election. There was even some statements three months ago from the prosecutors
06:54saying, well, in this part of the file, it's empty. I don't have, let's say, material
07:02to charge Marine Le Pen or the Front National at that time, now Rassemblement National. But
07:08nevertheless, I want to charge them. And even...
07:11Think about what Frédéric is saying. He's saying the judiciary are not independent.
07:15And the evidence too.
07:16No, no, no. Let me explain. Let me explain. And he's encouraging the people of France to
07:22mistrust the institutions of the judiciary. To me, that's preposterous.
07:26Sorry.
07:27Finish your point, and then...
07:28They're two different notions.
07:30Absolutely not.
07:31Independent, yes. We want an independent judiciary, and I think it is.
07:35You have it.
07:36But we also...
07:37But you don't like the decision.
07:38No. What we don't like is that when the French judiciary is not neutral, because justice
07:44and judiciary should handle everyone in the same way.
07:47You're just shooting the messenger. You're just shooting the messenger because you don't
07:50like the judgment. There's a right of appeal. Let's see what the court of appeal
07:54of France. And I think Marine Le Pen is shocked. They invented. They invented the notion of
08:00well, public order, democratic public order that would be troubled by Marine Le Pen. This
08:08legally doesn't exist in French law. And even the former Secretary General of the Constitutional
08:16Court of France made a statement publicly and said, this is not the rule of law.
08:22So what? But no, no, no, no. The rule of law, the rule of law, the rule of law means...
08:28But let's just, let's just take a step back.
08:30It's irrelevant.
08:30The rule of law means just, justice is the same for everyone.
08:34And Fabrice, I think the biggest punishment here for Marine Le Pen is not the sentencing,
08:37which clearly she might even get out of, but it's the fact that she will not be able
08:41to run for public office for the next five years.
08:42Well, she might. She's going to mount an appeal, she says. So we'll see.
08:46And the court of appeal has facilitated her by saying, we'll give you a decision by next
08:51summer. So she's going to be given the benefit of the doubt. She'll have her right of appeal
08:55and we'll see then what the judiciary say. But in the meantime, it's the undermining of
08:59democracy that deeply, deeply affects me and reminds me on in the European Parliament.
09:05And she compared herself...
09:06To be on the Democracy Shield Committee.
09:07And her comparing herself to Alexei Navalny?
09:09That brought a smile to my face and the irony of it is fascinating.
09:14Here is, this is what I'm saying. Fabrice, you may say what you say about the judiciary,
09:18but at the end of the day, there's a case that was heard. It was actually set out very
09:22clearly on the basis of evidence. This is what she should do. And don't forget, the banning,
09:26the banning comes from a piece of legislation she herself promoted because at the time it
09:31suited her. Now it doesn't. So it's OK.
09:34She also compared herself to Martin Luther King.
09:36Fabrice, you're smiling because you know that's the truth.
09:39No, but I haven't finished. I haven't finished. I'd like to know why it is that you and your
09:45party are able to feel the sense of conceit that you can actually cover up such a huge
09:52lie and the damage you're doing to the lives of people that may have faith or trust in you
09:58because they're lost, vulnerable and being left out, which you and your party, I'm afraid,
10:02prey upon, as does the Trump administration and others. There's a playbook here taking
10:07place, right? There's a playbook from Trump, Hungary and yourselves.
10:10Let's give Fabrice the opportunity to react to that.
10:11What we challenge is the way French judges qualify the situation and the fact. We say
10:17there is a disagreement between the interpretation of what kind of... Because for us, political...
10:25I mean, members of the parliament are politicians, which means that they have to carry out political
10:29activities and parliamentary assistants have to support them. Now, there was a disagreement.
10:35Fine. But what we challenge is the legal qualification which is made by French judges.
10:43It's all about the French judges.
10:44But you can challenge that in the Court of Appeal. So do that.
10:47And this...
10:47Do that. But don't spread misinformation about who said what, who were not part of the makeup
10:53of the judicial bench and the number of judges who made the decision. But...
10:57Let the courts decide. They're independent.
10:58But even the Minister of Justice, Mr. Darmanin, was shocked and said in the National Assembly
11:06in France that he expects that the appeal will be scheduled in the most reasonable time frame.
11:16So...
11:16I think...
11:17And this is what happened.
11:18So, very, very quickly. What's really sad about this is this scandalous notion of a party
11:24coming together the way it is, to be believed. Believe, you can get away with it. But the
11:28more... The biggest casualty here, right? The biggest casualty...
11:32No, actually, and I totally agree with you. The biggest casualty here is coming out of
11:36the playbook from Trump, Boris, and now here, is truth. Truth becomes malleable, open to
11:42definition, and suiting political gain. Once we have that in our front door, everything's
11:49done for. We're buggered.
11:50You're undermining, undermining independent institutions, whether it's judiciary. I was
11:54a barrister for 27 years. Do you think I walked in there and I doubted that the judge
11:59couldn't be independent in the face of both arguments being made, or three or four arguments
12:04sometimes being made? They are independent, they are appointed, and they are independent
12:09arbiters, fair and reasonable, in a democratic society, such as la France, such as Ireland.
12:15I just refer to what a union of French judges did some years ago. They had a wall where
12:22they had photos, and this was the wall of idiots, let's say, le mur des camps in French.
12:27So they put all the photos of the idiots, and, well, just, it's just like this.
12:34This is not an anecdote. This is all the playbook. This is like opening a comic.
12:39But this is a very lively debate we're having.
12:41This is a comic, and looking at pictures that you're describing on walls.
12:44Right-wing politicians. It's very infantile. It's very juvenile.
12:49And even parents of victims.
12:51You talk about trust, Fabrice, you talk about trust.
12:53This is the debate that French citizens don't trust the French.
12:56French families are having all across France. This lively debate we're having in the studio,
12:59this how divisive this verdict is in France, and, of course, everyone's wondering as well,
13:04what it will mean for the political future of Marine Le Pen, because until this verdict,
13:08she was pretty much the front-runner for the next presidential elections.
13:11Let's bring in Jeanne-Yves Camus, he's the well-known French political scientist,
13:14to hear if he thinks she should throw in her towel.
13:18No, this verdict does not mark the end of Marine Le Pen's political career,
13:27because in all the world's democracies, there are appeal procedures that can go all the way
13:32to the court of cassation and possibly result in a more lenient sentence.
13:36The party is thinking about a plan B. This plan B is almost certainly determined in advance.
13:42It's Jordan Bardella, who for the moment isn't saying that he's the person who could replace Marine Le Pen,
13:47because he has to support the party leader and stick together.
13:51Today, the Rassemblement National has over 10 million votes.
13:55The pool of voters is much larger than the pool of activists.
13:59And that was Jeanne-Yves Camus there, political scientist. So what is the plan B here, Fabrice?
14:06First of all, I want to stress that Marine Le Pen is our plan A, and she's the candidate,
14:13and she will run for the presidential election. So this is our expectation.
14:18So there will be an appeal next year in 26. So there is a legal way for Marine Le Pen to be allowed to be the candidate.
14:29And of course, we do support. And last week, there was a big political gathering in Paris to support Marine Le Pen.
14:36Not an awful lot. There was 7,000 people only. They expected tens of thousands.
14:41We expected 8,000. In practice, there were 10,000. And as usual, the police always say a little bit less.
14:49Again, mistrust in the independent institutions of the state. If it's not the judiciary, it's the police.
14:54It's the game. It's the game.
14:56During that rally, she gave a very aggressive speech.
14:58It's the game in France.
14:59It's a game for Patriots. It's a game for Marine Le Pen.
15:02If I left it, they were 50,000.
15:05There's Jordan Bardell, of course. He's waiting in the wings.
15:07Yeah, of course there is. But can we kind of, for a moment, because this is a playbook that keeps on coming out.
15:11And then, you know, he says what he says because you, and I say this with all respect,
15:15but there is a playbook globally and an ideology that you and other acolytes are pursuing.
15:21Let's bring it down to people. You spoke about trust.
15:24We launched a report this week called Voices for Choices, Data for Decision Makers, right?
15:30We've surveyed 2,000 young people in Europe in the five key markets of France, Germany, Poland, Denmark.
15:3765% of young people in France have the lowest amount of trust in politicians.
15:43They believe politicians and the media are polarizing France.
15:48So, whilst Bardella is our, you know, pin-up boy for the youth, young people are being able,
15:55and we mustn't kind of suggest that they are kind of easy to be, you know, I suppose, changed in their minds.
16:02They are able to make choices and judgments.
16:05And the reason they don't trust politicians as well is because there's deep corruption within the European Parliament that needs to be weeded out as well.
16:10And that's the subject of the case against Marine Le Pen.
16:13We're talking about millions that were misused and it was embezzlement,
16:17and it was complete robbery from a fund that shouldn't have been taken from that fund to pay her workers back en France.
16:24And she's not the only one, allegedly, misusing funds.
16:27Last year we saw Follow the Money came out with a report saying that 140 MEPs misused and misspent EU Parliament allowances, which is also a major problem.
16:36And all of that needs to be rooted out. This is not against Marine Le Pen.
16:39So will this verdict change anything then?
16:40Absolutely, and it should.
16:42I can ask, what will you do to build a, at the moment, what we know is post the Qatar Gate, right?
16:47There was a move for greater, stronger, ethical, ethics body.
16:51Yes.
16:52We've seen in the past six months, the centre and the right convening and saying, no, we don't want that many rules,
16:57because actually we can be trusted, right?
16:59Now we've got this, the bird situation, we've got Huawei.
17:03At what point would you and your colleagues actually who are not dirty, are interested in public service
17:09and integrity, say, we will have a broad coalition and say, we do want to have checks and balances in the system.
17:14Well, the point, the point began for me.
17:15But we don't have that. In the European Parliament, you don't have that at the moment.
17:18Very little change since the time.
17:19Absolutely.
17:20The risk, the threshold is so high.
17:23I'm a new MEP and the point began for me when I got elected, I can tell you, because I firmly believe in transparency
17:28and I firmly believe in doing not only your civic duty, but your political duty and your professional duty.
17:34So I account for everything.
17:36Do I know that those standards are applied by every MEP out of the 720?
17:40No, I don't.
17:41But I do call for it on a weekly basis.
17:43Good.
17:44Yes, I do.
17:45OK, just zooming back into France, it's very unstable politically.
17:48I guess the concern here as well, the impact this is having on the future of the country and the future of the EU.
17:53The budget deficit is still very high.
17:55Nobody can really fix France.
17:56We also have a president who's very weak.
17:58How do you see this all playing out, Armandre?
18:00We saw when you watched a Marine Le Pen this weekend.
18:04It was very similar to what we saw with Trump calling out the election being fraudulent and, you know, Capitol Hill, etc.
18:13My concern is that I hope that people in your party can see that the French people are not just yourselves.
18:20They're a whole community out there.
18:22You believe in the principles of France and actually take that with a sense of responsibility.
18:27Because otherwise, we're going to end up in Trumpville in France.
18:30But his party is very popular.
18:32I mean, your party is popular.
18:33So is Trump.
18:34Trump has got the halagest, you know, popular of it.
18:36What I'm saying is it's a time now there is an ideology that's being bred that's very similar to the 1930s.
18:42And we must stand up for that and must stand up against it and be alive to it.
18:46And just on Trump, let's just bring in as well the tweet that we saw his Vice President Vance come out with the other day on this case,
18:52saying they're trying to throw Marine Le Pen in prison and throw her off the ballot.
18:56That is not democracy.
18:57The relationship with Europe will get tested if they keep throwing opposition leaders in jail.
19:01More interference.
19:02More interference that we've seen right across Europe with Musk interfering with German elections and propping up...
19:08And that's what the French Minister Biden said as well.
19:10It's the same thing over and over.
19:12President Obama several years ago said that, well, French people should vote against Marine Le Pen.
19:18So this was a kind of interference.
19:21I think we are in the globalized world.
19:23But nevertheless, nations are independent.
19:25And our voters and French citizens vote according to their expectations and wish.
19:32But I would like to come back to this political instability in France.
19:35And you mentioned President Macron as being very weak.
19:38Indeed, he's weak.
19:39And why is it so?
19:40Because he failed his policies.
19:43So the legacy, the huge debts, we have never seen something like this.
19:47So he was supposed to be...
19:48You're from his party.
19:49He was supposed to be the master of finance, supported by many skilled professionals in finance.
20:00And what...
20:01But it's not just that France is...
20:02It's just not flexible.
20:03It's not all about him ruining an economy.
20:08He hasn't ruined an economy anyway.
20:10Sorry, there's more to a society and politics than an economy.
20:14There is also the rule of law.
20:16There is also a society that must be cared for.
20:18People who aren't as well off.
20:19Security for citizens.
20:20All of that.
20:21People who need...
20:22Who are disadvantaged with regards to education and so forth.
20:24And I would submit, and I'm certainly not a front-runner or a supporter for the President of France
20:29because I don't know exactly, intimately, the politics of that country.
20:33But I do know that President Macron upholds the rule of law and democracy and he tries to work for the betterment of all aspects of society and all parties in society.
20:43Let me explain how Macron understands rule of law and democracy.
20:47In June, July 24, he dissolved the National Assembly.
20:54There were two rounds of elections.
20:57In the first round, we were the front-runners.
21:00So let's say that the Patriots of Rassemblement National and other allies in total between 37 and 40% of the votes.
21:09In any democratic country, people would expect that at least this political family would propose the Prime Minister or at least that they would be part of the kind of coalition.
21:22What happened then?
21:23In the second round, Macron found new friends in the far left, the anti-Semitism.
21:30And on that point, we'll have to wrap up this very interesting discussion.
21:33And it is worth pointing out there have been four Prime Ministers of France in the last 18 months.
21:38For more on that story, you can keep an eye on Euronews.com.
21:41And stay with us, of course, here on Euronews because after the break, we'll be hearing how Brussels is trying to look for new friends since getting downgraded by their American besties.
21:50See you soon.
21:51Welcome back to Brussels, my love, our weekly chat show here on Euronews, where we're just taking a look back at the news of the week.
22:06And one we wanted to deep dive into was this, the EU accelerating efforts to make new friends and partners across the globe.
22:13Just last month, the whole Commission cabinet went to New Delhi to discuss a trade deal that's been under review for years.
22:19And just last week, the first ever EU Central Asia Summit took place in Uzbekistan.
22:24And an EU-China summit has been scheduled for this July.
22:27Looks like the Commission president is making good on the message she sent to the US president on the week he was inaugurated in January.
22:33Europe will seek cooperation, not only with our longtime like-minded friends, but with any country we share interests with.
22:45Our message to the world is simple.
22:48If there are mutual benefits inside, we are ready to engage with you.
22:54Ursula von der Leyen there speaking earlier this year in Davos at the World Economic Forum.
22:59Fabrice, what do you make of this speed dating around the world?
23:02Well, I think European politicians have to promote the interests of Europeans.
23:08And we have to be pragmatic.
23:11And, you know, what President Trump is doing, he promised to promote as patriots the interests of Americans.
23:19And he said America first.
23:21And what we say in Rassemblement National, in the Patriots for Europe, we say, well, let's prioritize the interests of our people.
23:29So if any kind of economic, international economic cooperation can help and, let's say, support the interest of our people.
23:41Even though, ironically, he will hurt the Americans most at the end of the day.
23:45I think the only good thing about the Trump experience is that it's given us a real shake-up, a real wake-up call.
23:50So let's make Europe great again, I say.
23:53Yes, let's get on with it.
23:54That's your mantra.
23:55That's your mantra.
23:56That's your mantra.
23:57Yes.
23:58Maybe you want to join.
23:59Not from the playbook of Trump, though.
24:01Oh, no.
24:02From the playbook of democracy and the rule of law and making sure that we trade with countries, that we also work with them in terms of democratic values.
24:11Yes, yes.
24:12And, sorry, not make Europe great again at the cost of bankrupting Europe, like we see what Trump is doing to America now and affecting the citizens extremely badly.
24:21You touched on an interesting point there, democratic values that the EU should be upholding.
24:26Last week, we saw the first-ever EU Central Asia summit in Uzbekistan.
24:30What did you make of that?
24:31Firstly, this is long overdue, right?
24:33And I agree with you.
24:34It's a good kick on the backside because, actually, it's great and great that you actually have stood there and said,
24:40we will work with anybody who has a mutual interest.
24:42I would say to put PS, share our values, please.
24:46Yes.
24:47Otherwise, what you're doing is you're just basically doing cut and paste of MAGA and everything else.
24:51And one has to be really clear.
24:52You don't want to make Europe great again.
24:54Europe's great already.
24:55You just have to be undermined.
24:56Not quite great on the competitive edge, though.
24:59There's always going to be four planes.
25:00Not quite great.
25:01But the beauty of this project is built on the foundations of peace, integrity and human rights.
25:05Yes.
25:06Let's not forget that.
25:07That's not what America is doing at the moment.
25:08But I think we it's rich for us to say that democracy will be kind of the biggest issue when what's happening in Hungary?
25:16What was happening in Poland beforehand?
25:18Look, what's happening in France, et cetera and so forth.
25:20So we kind of we should not we should not sort of stand up and say, OK, we want the greatest democratic deal happening.
25:26Just understand and be self-effacing.
25:28But what we do need to do is create different trade flow, trade flows with Africa, Latin America, with less red tape, with less red tape as long as we need to be more agile.
25:39I agree.
25:40That's the yes.
25:41I think everyone can agree on that.
25:42Yes, less bureaucracy.
25:43That's for sure in the interest of everyone.
25:46I would like to come back to the concept of democracy.
25:49So there is now in the in the EU, in the parliament, the so-called EU shield, democratic shield.
25:54Yes.
25:55I can give you the example of this understanding of the rule of law again by Madame Loiseau, the chair of this committee.
26:02My colleague.
26:03Switching off, switching off the microphone of a colleague, not mine, but switching off the microphone of a colleague and saying, you are not allowed.
26:10I don't allow you to say this in the parliament.
26:12True.
26:13I was actually present.
26:14OK, you were there.
26:15I was there.
26:16I was there.
26:17And that did not happen in the way that it's being reported.
26:19Let's go back to the discussion at hand here, which is about the EU opening up.
26:23And I'd like to bring in another view here and listen to Matthew Robinson.
26:26He works for the Euro Gulf Information Center.
26:29The United States will continue to be a an important partner for Europe.
26:35But saying that, I think what the ongoing tensions and the tariff disputes have have stressed the importance of is that Europe's future cannot hang on the political mood swings of Washington, D.C., depending on the administration of the day.
26:52The EU needs smarter relationships from the broader relationships.
26:58And we need to reflect on the opportunities that exist.
27:03But Europe needs to tread carefully, carefully here and not double down on more protectionism to fight this current tariff war with the United States.
27:15So, Fabrice, are these just mood swings we're seeing or is the U.S. really on a path to isolation?
27:20Well, Donald Trump, as a candidate, promised to American voters that he would protect them against mass migration.
27:29So that's what he did with the borders, that he would protect them against trade or imports.
27:36So he now he's increasing the tariffs.
27:39So I think he's just doing what he promised.
27:43But he promised to address inflation and these tariffs are inflationary.
27:47Let's see. We will see what's going on.
27:49How is he protecting his voters when he's going to put tariffs on pharmaceutical companies so that American people, well, let's deal with reality.
27:57I'm not promoting Donald Trump.
27:58American people won't be able to get their drugs.
28:00But you are promoting the fact in your introductory remarks, you did say, well, of course, Donald Trump led out on returning the country.
28:08Can we talk about Europe, though? This is this is so, you know, enraging that everything has to be a reaction to Mr. Trump.
28:15And when do we start defining our own trajectory and ideology?
28:19Europe should see this as an opportunity to say there's a 350 million market.
28:24But actually, the world represents a 1.5 billion market.
28:27Right.
28:28And actually, the assets Europe has are phenomenal.
28:32It just has to be self-confident and have the self-esteem to be creative and say, actually, we'll file in different ways and different partnerships.
28:39And OK, there'll be pain.
28:40But let's ease that pain with making a fast track approach to closing the India deal, doing work with China, Africa in particular, Latin America, create opportunities for minerals and technology and experts to come.
28:53Just on China, there was a phone call this week between Islam and Beijing.
28:56Exactly.
28:57There'll be a summit this summer.
28:58But imagine if she did something really kind of canny, which is say to every American that wants to leave America as because they feel like asylum seekers in a country, give them a fast track passport.
29:09Imagine what that would do.
29:10There are many people who come.
29:11We'd actually have talent and we should do that across the world.
29:14We see that actually in Ireland.
29:15And we saw also this week, Austria actually agreeing to Mercosur as well because of, of course, Donald Trump, the US president.
29:22But on that point, we can bring this conversation to a close.
29:24Thank you so much to our panelists and thank you for watching.
29:27Stay with us here on Euronews.
29:37Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly talk show here on Euronews.
29:42I'm Maeve MacMahon and this week I'm joined here in the studio by the Irish MEP Cynthia Niwerecu from a new Europe, the French MEP Fabrice Legerli from the Patriots for Europe and Armandri Canani from Friends of Europe.
29:54Well, it's been another intense week with newspaper headlines every day reporting on the impact Trump's tariffs will have on various sectors of our lives.
30:02And one that we wanted to focus in on was our wine sector, which is having a really bad season.
30:08To hear how really bad it is.
30:09We spoke to Thierry Lejeune.
30:11He's from Goudoul Winery.
30:14Generally speaking, the wine sector is suffering very badly.
30:19The difficulties are currently sales difficulties.
30:23The market is down.
30:25Consumption has dropped significantly.
30:27In France, we're talking about a 70% drop in consumption over the last 30 years.
30:34So that's huge.
30:35This means that major producing countries like France are heavily dependent on exports.
30:40The drop in consumption is due, among other things, to health policies that condemn alcohol consumption through wine.
30:47But by promoting alcohol-free wines, we're changing the addiction.
30:51Because it's important to remember that these wines, which are essentially industrialized, are generally full of sugar.
30:59And that was Thierry Lejeune there hammering home what's at stake for the industry.
31:03This is a big deal, Fabrice, especially for France and indeed Italy.
31:07Well, indeed, there is a drop in consumption of wine.
31:12There is a cultural trend.
31:14There are many reasons for that.
31:16Perhaps wine is more expensive than beer, for example, and other beverages.
31:22But I think we have to address this in the long term, in a structured way,
31:27to educate younger generation to, well, in fact, drink wine in a reasonable way.
31:35I mean, in a healthy and reasonable way.
31:38But this is part of the identity, not only of France, but other, let's say, countries in Europe.
31:43I have in mind Italy, Spain, Spain and others.
31:47This time, I agree 100% with Fabrice.
31:50I just want to say that before we get to the end of the program.
31:52This is where I agree 100%.
31:54It's so important to protect our European wine industry.
31:58And can I say that in my own constituency, you're not going to believe this in Ireland, where it's very cold and it's very wet.
32:04We have the Old Roots winery, which is in Wexford, a southern county.
32:08And there are a couple growing and producing growing vines and producing grapes.
32:13So I've got skin in the game there.
32:15I think the wine industry is going to have to look at other markets easier said than done.
32:20I think in terms of the drop in consumption, de-alcoholicise it and make sure that the alcohol is removed because younger people don't want to be consuming as much alcohol, believe it or not.
32:31And I also think perhaps just attack those new markets.
32:35New markets.
32:36Attack those new markets.
32:37And we saw French wines will be subject to 20% of tariffs under the measures culled by the President of the United States.
32:42And the midterm elections are in two years time.
32:44And in the meantime, hopefully, hopefully the Republicans and the members of Donald Trump's party will be working way in the background.
32:51There's so much more organized than they've ever been before with Musk and others.
32:55So it's a very different thing.
32:56The price now will fall on the consumer.
32:57Indeed.
32:58But also, where I disagree with both of you, I was waiting for one of you to say, let's encourage young people to drink.
33:03Yeah.
33:04No.
33:05You know, the fact is we've seen because of almost equivalent of alcohol pops, alcohol being consumed by young people in the UK, Ireland, elsewhere.
33:14Yes.
33:15But it's so cheap.
33:16People are getting drunk by nine o'clock at night and they're absolutely completely doused in alcohol.
33:20What we've had to realize that the commentary was made was fine.
33:2330 years is a long time.
33:24Okay.
33:25We've seen social progress, health progress.
33:28We understand what's in wine and people have become healthier.
33:31Right.
33:32What the market can do is to remove the sulfites, remove the levels of sugar, transform wine.
33:37You know, but also what they can do is do deals with China, India, elsewhere and say, we will give you a patent of our wine.
33:45We get a cut on it and therefore you survive.
33:47You try and think five years ahead in terms of the transformation of winemaking.
33:51But don't forget, this is only one aspect of a wider issue of agriculture.
33:55We saw the tractors last year.
33:57And culture.
33:58And culture.
33:59I want to emphasize that as well.
34:00It is a huge cultural aspect of our unique culture in Europe with the wine.
34:05We might not have it predominantly in Ireland.
34:07But obviously I enjoy the culture of wine from France, from Italy.
34:11Yeah.
34:12And would you enjoy the culture of non-alcoholic wine?
34:14Absolutely.
34:15Absolutely.
34:16Would you drink it?
34:17I would not.
34:18I would.
34:19The name wine means that there is alcohol.
34:21It can be another good beverage.
34:23Why not?
34:24But let's don't call it wine.
34:26It's like meat, for example.
34:28Meat is meat.
34:29If there is a vegan substitute.
34:31I'm sorry.
34:32As somebody who drank Guinness all my life from the time I was a teenager, we now have zero Guinness.
34:37I mean, Guinness is the iconic drink of Ireland.
34:40If we can take the alcohol out of Guinness, you can take the alcohol out of wine.
34:44No, I think, well, it depends on the way of life.
34:47It's the identity.
34:49But I think the people are, in fact, when they hear the name wine, for them it's associated with some alcohol.
34:59We have to educate people so that they drink in a smart way and that they are reasonable with that.
35:07And I think this is a matter of education.
35:09But the wine sector, in the meantime, will have to get back up on its feet.
35:13That's why the Commission this week came up with a proposal on non-alcoholic wine.
35:16There is something to improve.
35:18For example, I visited a couple of days ago in the middle of France, near Sancerre vineyard.
35:23And the producer explained to me how he is now removing the sulphides.
35:30And so that's an important aspect to improve the production.
35:35And this is where maybe we could also develop some kind of tourism so that people can say, OK, let's visit that region and let's drink wine.
35:44But, Fabrice, there's an opportunity to really, rather than stay in the past, there's an opportunity for winemaking in France, Italy, Germany, elsewhere to do what Japan did with whisky.
35:55Think about what they did. They spent time in Scotland and now have some of the best whiskies around.
35:59I'm not saying that model. I'm just saying you could do deals in a market which is Africa, Latin America and Asia and say, we'll give bits of the French label or bits of the French way of doing things.
36:09But we'll make it cleaner, better and, you know, therefore cheaper for you also.
36:13Therefore, you create a win-win situation rather than simply thinking that we can stay as we are and just remove a few sulphides.
36:19I think you need to create a future focused winemaking industry that does the deal making, but also transforms wine consumption.
36:26So it can be both healthy without the alcohol and for those who want alcohol can have it.
36:31But you have to be responsible in what you're promoting in terms of habit.
36:35And also the cultural heritage. Again, I go back to that point.
36:38Vineyards could be places to visit, not to taste alcoholic wine all the time or non-alcoholic,
36:43but to actually look at the agriculture behind it and the science behind it.
36:47So places of interest.
36:48And on that point, we can bring this.
36:50It's part of our landscapes and identity.
36:52And we'll have to bring the conversation to a close now.
36:54Thank you so much, Fabrice Lageri from the Patriots for Europe for being with us.
36:59Cindy Niewerku, Irish MEP for Europe.
37:00And Armander Canani from Friends of Europe.
37:02Thank you so much to you all.
37:03And thank you for watching.
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37:07Brusselsmylove at Euronews.com.
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37:22Bye.
37:23Bye.