Die für Technologie zuständige Vizepräsidentin der Europäischen Kommission bestreitet, dass die digitalen Vorschriften der EU im Widerspruch zur Meinungsfreiheit stehen.
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00:00My guest on the Europe Conversation this week is Henna Virkunen, Executive Vice President
00:12of the European Commission for Tech Sovereignty, Security and Democracy.
00:16She says the EU fully intends to apply its regulations against social media companies
00:22despite criticisms from the United States that they impinge on freedom of expression.
00:29So, Henna Virkunen, EU Commissioner and Executive Vice President on Tech Sovereignty, Security
00:34and Democracy.
00:35Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:38It's a pleasure to be here.
00:39Can I ask you, first of all, obviously you have such an important mandate right now at
00:44this particular moment in time when there's such fears about disinformation, interference
00:49in democracy, malinformation, a mal-business practice where the EU has specific toolboxes,
00:56the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act.
00:59Can you guarantee that the EU will ensure that these are rigorously applied to all
01:04industries, particularly social media industries, particularly those based in the United States?
01:09Yes, of course, we are now fully implementing and enforcing our rules when it comes to
01:14Digital Services Act, for example.
01:16And it's a very important tool, I see, because nowadays digital platforms, they play a very
01:22important role when we look at our society or our economy.
01:25And in the European Union, we want to make sure that also our digital environment, it's
01:30safe and fair and democratic.
01:32And that's why we have put certain legislations into place and now we are enforcing them.
01:37Because they come under so much attack from the likes of Elon Musk, who has a specifically
01:41important role in the US administration.
01:44Are you concerned that if the EU is to go what they see is too harshly against the likes
01:49of X, that there may be retaliation?
01:51We heard, for example, Vice President J.D.
01:53Vance saying that the US could pull support for Ukraine if the EU goes after X, as they see it.
02:00Of course, all the actions what we are taking, they have to be based to our legislation.
02:05And our rules are very fair because they are same rules for everybody who is operating
02:10and doing business in the European Union.
02:12So we have same rules for the European companies, for American companies, for the Chinese
02:16companies, because we want to make sure that we have also a fair and democratic, safe
02:20environment when it comes to our digital field.
02:23And, for example, everything what is illegal in our societies in the European Union, it's
02:27also illegal in our online world.
02:30So what would you, what are your concerns around the likes of X and so on when it comes
02:34to algorithms, for example?
02:37Of course, this is something also what we have been now investigating from the
02:40Commission side, especially the recommender system, for example, on different online
02:45platforms, because they have very much power what kind of content they are showing for
02:50the citizens.
02:51And one of our main principles in our rules is that we have set obligation for online
02:56platforms that they have to assess and mitigate the systematic risks, for example, what they
03:01are posing to our democratic systems, to our civic discourse, for our well-being, and also
03:06that they have to be transparent, for example, when it comes to recommender system, that
03:10the user knows why certain content is shown for her or him, and that the user has to have
03:15also possibility to choose.
03:17And how much reaction have you had from the social media companies, because we saw Meta,
03:22for example, say that they are going to get rid of fact-checkers, for example, and then
03:26we saw concerns that Elon Musk may be changing the algorithm to allow for more far-right
03:32disruptive information, mal-information on his social media platform, but they haven't
03:37really responded positively to the EU concerns.
03:41When it comes to Meta, they have confirmed that they will continue with the fact-checkers
03:45in the European Union, and when it comes to X, in January I made the decision that we
03:50were asking more information from X on their recommender system and what kind of changes
03:55there has been.
03:56So we have currently 10 investigations going on against very large online platforms where
04:02we are checking that if they are complying with our rules, and in the same time we are
04:07also working all the time with online platforms with different guidelines and workshops and
04:12code of conducts and so on, so we have all the time different parts going on, how we
04:17are enforcing the rules with them.
04:18But I guess the question is, what kind of response might you get, given that J.D.
04:23Vance has said, if the EU comes after X, then there could be consequences for the US support
04:30for Ukraine.
04:31Everything is intertwined at the moment, isn't it?
04:33I think it's important to underline that we are not going after anyone, we want to make
04:37sure that everybody is complying with our rules in the European Union, that they are
04:42respecting our rules, and that we are now investigating, and that's why we are having
04:47dialogue all the time going on with the online platforms.
04:51And have they responded positively, with the investigation into X, for example, which started
04:55in December 23 and then was expanded just January this year, how is that investigation
05:00going?
05:01Are you getting the proper responses and engagement from X?
05:04Well, it's always the case with the industries that everybody is protecting their business
05:09idea very much, of course, and their business interest.
05:12But yes, the online platforms, they are, of course, they are cooperating with the European
05:16Commission, because European Union is the biggest or second biggest market for most
05:23of them.
05:24So European Union is super important market for the digital platforms, and many of them,
05:28they have more users in the European Union than they have, for example, in USA.
05:33So, of course, it's very important for them to comply with our rules.
05:36And would you be concerned at all that there might be a retaliation from the US government?
05:40Will you take that into account when there's a decision around what type or how big a fine
05:46may be if they're found in breach, that it wouldn't be so high that they might, that
05:51the Americans might say, well, you're attacking us, we're going to respond accordingly?
05:55These legislations, when we speak about Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act, they
05:59are very new legislations, and we are now making first decisions based on them.
06:04So, of course, we want to make sure, we want to be sure always when we are making decisions
06:09that we have to have very strong legal basis of all the decisions, and we want to make
06:14sure.
06:15Some of those people, JD Vance again, but others in the United States would say that
06:19these rules are in fact an impression, an impact on freedom of expression, and that
06:26the EU is trying to curtail freedom of expression by imposing these laws, particularly in the
06:31DSA.
06:32What would you say to that?
06:33That is not correct.
06:35So there is misunderstanding if some of the citizens see, or some of the decision makers
06:41that we are limiting freedom of speech with these rules, because we are protecting freedom
06:46of speech with our rules, and the DSA, it's not about content.
06:50There we are just setting obligation for online platforms that they have to have practices
06:54in place, that how they make sure that they are mitigating, they are assessing the systematic
06:59risks, how they make sure that they are not spreading disinformation.
07:04So we are not regulating the content at all.
07:10And then just one of the watershed moments, of course, recently was the Romanian election.
07:14There was an investigation into TikTok in relation to potentially paid bots and so on,
07:21or paid people who had elevated an ultra-nationalist contender for presidency, which was subsequently
07:28annulled.
07:29Can you tell us a little bit about that investigation?
07:30Because that is something that has worried, I suppose, lawmakers and governments all across
07:34Europe and beyond.
07:36We have to make sure that online platforms, they are not misused or manipulated during
07:40the elections.
07:41And that's why it's very important that they are also very well prepared for the electoral
07:46processes.
07:47And that's why we are always suggesting for the member states that before elections they
07:53are organizing so-called roundtable with online platforms and with the local authorities,
07:58with the NGOs.
08:00And then they are checking the risks of the elections, that how different online platforms
08:06are prepared for that.
08:08For example, in Germany, they organized that before elections, but they also carried out
08:13so-called risk tests before the elections to really see that how the different online
08:20platforms, how they are prepared and how they are reacting to different things, what can
08:25happen during the electoral campaigns.
08:28And also in Romania, now they are organizing that kind of event with online platforms where
08:33they are checking.
08:34So it's important that we are preparing for the elections with the national authorities
08:38and with online platforms.
08:40And also that online platforms, that they make sure that they are not misused or manipulated
08:45and they are transparent during the electoral processes.
08:48And you're confident that the EU will not resile from implementing the DSA and DMA where
08:55and when needed, despite the confrontation with the United States?
09:00It's super important for us that we are fully enforcing DMA and DSA, because when it comes
09:05to DMA there, we want to make sure that the big players, that they are not the dominant
09:12players, they are not misusing their market power, that also new innovations can enter
09:17to the markets in the European Union.
09:19And DSA is very much for making sure that illegal content and products are taken down
09:25and we have safe and democratic, fair environment.
09:28So I want to just ask you about something you announced this week at the European Parliament,
09:32the EU's internal security strategy.
09:34I suppose one part of it links to what we've seen recently, which was an investigation
09:39into Huawei or allegations of corruption, of bribery against EU officials or members
09:46of the European Parliament.
09:47This sort of aligns with that, doesn't it?
09:49Can you tell us a little bit about what the EU now needs to do to ensure that things like
09:53this don't happen again and what is the internal strategy?
09:56Of course it's important when it comes to different lobbying activities that we are
10:01following all the transparency rules different institutions are having and of course here
10:06we are now following the investigations on this case, that what has happened.
10:12But when it comes to our security environment as a whole, the reason why we wanted to update
10:20our internal security strategy was that the security environment is very alarming.
10:26Our citizens in the European Union, they are worried about security.
10:29In the latest Eurobarometer, 64% of the citizens said that they are worried about security.
10:37And also we can see that security threats, they are now much more international and they
10:42are also very digitalized.
10:44And just on the internal security strategy, what is the most fearful threats facing the
10:48EU in relation to that?
10:50Is it critical infrastructure attacks, cyber attacks, you know, hybrid war?
10:55That is, I think, quite an interesting question, that what is the biggest threat, because
10:59nowadays we can see that there are many different threats at the same time.
11:06Like you were listing, we have been witnessing sabotage to our critical infrastructure.
11:12We have all the time massive cyber attacks towards the European Union.
11:16Also migrants, they have been used as weapons on our external borders.
11:21And of course at the same time we have different organized crime, terrorist groups and so on.
11:25So we have to be prepared for many, many different kind of threats.
11:29And that's why we have to closely cooperate together.
11:34And also from the Commission side, we now decided that always when we are making now
11:38new legal actions, we will include also the security assessment as a part of our impact
11:44assessment of different legislations.
11:46Okay, Commissioner Henne-Werkunen, Executive Vice Presidents for Tech Sovereignty, Security
11:51and Democracy.
11:52Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
11:54Thank you.