In this edition, we take a look at the protests in Turkey, the crackdown on the annual gay parade in Budapest and the broken ceasefire in Gaza.
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00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, our weekly talk show that dives into the highs
00:17and lows of EU politics. I'm Maeve McMahon. Thanks for tuning in. Coming up this week,
00:24democracy under fire. In more and more countries, strongmen are gaining the upper hand with
00:29political rights and personal freedoms increasingly up for grabs. From Hungary banning gay pride
00:36to Turkey cracking down on protesters. We're taking a closer look and asking if the United
00:41States is retreating from its role as the guardian of democracy. And Israeli strikes
00:47on targets in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon, as well as rocket attacks on Israel. The cycle
00:53of violence and counter-violence in the Middle East is back. The ceasefire that has only
00:58been in place for a short time seems already history. Meanwhile, the fate of remaining
01:03Israeli hostages remains uncertain. And with it, the chances of a lasting peace overall.
01:09Does diplomacy still have a chance? And what is the role of Brussels? The questions we're
01:13posing with our panel this weekend. Shada Islam, director at New Horizons Project. Jen
01:19Godfrey, the director of the European Partnership for Democracy. And Jérôme Bellion-Jordan,
01:25a negotiation expert and former European diplomat who's based in Geneva. Thanks so
01:30much for coming in to us and for joining. But before we hear from you, as always, let's
01:35just take a look at what this town was talking about this week.
01:41Recep Tayyip Erdogan once put it like this. Democracy is like a tram. You ride it until
01:46you arrive at your destination. Then you step off.
01:56Looks like some other fellow populist travelers from Viktor Orban to Donald Trump have reached
02:01their final stop as well. Their campaigns against democratic rules are in full swing.
02:10Silencing or intimidating political opponents, Erdogan's rival Ekrem ImamoÄŸlu, the mayor
02:15of Istanbul, was arrested on corruption charges. Suppressing minorities, Hungary's ruling Fidesz
02:23party fast-tracked a bill banning pride marches held by the LGBTQ community.
02:30Attacking free speech, the Trump administration took action against media outlets and blackmailed
02:35universities to comply with Trump's world views.
02:42According to the organization Freedom House, political rights and civil liberties around
02:47the world deteriorated to their lowest point in more than a decade. Is democracy becoming
02:52a phase-out model?
02:56So, a lot to pick apart there. I mean, a lot to digest, really. Shada, perhaps we'll start
03:01with you. What's going on in Turkey? I mean, it's not a huge surprise, I imagine, these protests.
03:06No, not a huge surprise. It's been going on for some time, but now it's really out there
03:10and open and Erdogan has no limits as to what he wants to do and can do, given the current
03:16environment. So, the arrest of the mayor of Istanbul, arrest of journalists, you know,
03:20just going for the human rights defenders, and he feels he can do it because you've got
03:25Donald Trump in Washington, as you said, and you've got our own Viktor Orban, you know,
03:30we've got these populist and far-right leaders also sort of setting the agenda. So, who's
03:35to stop him? And we could, as Europeans, but we've been quite muted in our criticism, and
03:40that's because Turkey matters a lot when we're dealing with Russia, you know, an aggressive
03:44Russia. Turkey has the arms, the soldiers, and he can bring the support as well. So,
03:49we're in a bit of a bind there, I think, Maeve.
03:51And indeed, as you say, it's not just the mayor of Istanbul who's behind bars. Over
03:55one thousand have been put behind bars. We even saw on Thursday a BBC journalist was
03:59detained for many hours and in fact deported from the country, and when a BBC journalist
04:04is given this sort of treatment, it makes global news. Jérôme, what is your assessment
04:09of the situation?
04:10Well, my assessment, I mean, I would agree with Sheila, but I think we need to look at
04:14it in a broader context. I mean, the EU, seen from Brussels, has always claimed that
04:20it was supporting democracy worldwide. In practice, what is it that we've done? We've
04:24been supportive of authoritarian regimes, you know, in all regions, because we wanted
04:30to have access to raw materials, to oil, gas, because we wanted to sell weapons, because
04:34we wanted to, you know, Erdogan or others to stop migration flows. So, I think we've
04:40made those decisions. I mean, when it comes to supporting democracy, we're not necessarily
04:47a powerful actor, or at least we're not doing what we claim we are doing. So, in the
04:52case of Turkey, I think it's not, you know, it shouldn't be singled out to a broader
04:57issue, which is that we're not necessarily very supportive in action of democratisation.
05:02If we take, you know, the Arab Spring, for instance, I mean, it was a huge opportunity.
05:07Where was the EU to support that trend towards democracy in the Middle East? No way.
05:12Maybe I would say something that I think that now the response is more muted than it would
05:17have been. I think we would probably all agree that five years ago, or maybe even a few months
05:22ago, considering what's happened in the United States and considering the vulnerability
05:27of European countries on the security front, I agree with you that very often there are
05:32sort of double standards in this. But the EU still is, you know, according to the treaties
05:36and many of the countries, it's an obligation to try to support these values, which are
05:41founding values of the European Union. So, generals should be doing more. But I agree
05:45with you, there are other interests which are taking precedence over, such as raw materials,
05:50energy, security issues that trump sometimes these democratic...
05:56And Brussels knows very well how much it needs Turkey. I mean, especially as well when it
06:00comes to addressing a regular migration. But I'd like to bring in a Turkish voice now,
06:04and we can hear from Bahar Kim Yongur. He's a Belgian-Turkish writer based here in Brussels,
06:09and this is how he feels about President Erdogan.
06:13He's facing Ekrem Imamoglu, who is the main Turkish candidate for the next elections.
06:22Basically, he says that if the US can bomb Yemen or Israel can just erase, destroy Gaza,
06:33why I could not behave in the same way towards my opposition? And the problem is also the
06:39behaviour of the European partners. He says to Europe, OK, let me be the bulwark towards
06:47Russia, but in the same time, I want to be the European Putin. I want to be the Turkish
06:54Putin working for the interests of Western Europe.
06:59That was the assessment there of Bahar Kim Yongur, a Belgian-Turkish journalist. The
07:04big issue, he's saying, is that Erdogan is afraid of Imamoglu, the candidate for the
07:08presidential elections. His election is taking place in three years.
07:12Yes, I think the calculations of Erdogan are multiple. He's obviously facing a situation
07:21internally, but he also knows that he's got a leverage and a role in his relationship
07:26with the EU. He knows that at the regional level in the Middle East, Turkey has become
07:30a key player on the global stage as well. So I think that he knows all of this, and
07:36his calculation is maybe betting that he can do away with cracking on the opposition,
07:44knowing that he will get the support he needs externally.
07:47And he said this week, the EU cannot live without Turkey. Those are the words of President
07:52Erdogan. But Shada, from your perspective, someone who's been following Turkey and the
07:56EU for many years, do you think this could be the beginning of the end for President
08:00Erdogan?
08:01It's very difficult to say that. I wouldn't go so far as to say it could be the end, but
08:05he does have opposition, and I think Ekrem is a very, very strong voice and has a great
08:10deal of support in Turkey. He's a democrat as well, and he's a liberal, and he's a progressive,
08:15so all of the things that run counter to what Erdogan stands for. But we live in a world
08:20where, as you've said, both of you, authoritarianism is on the rise, and the models they have,
08:26whether it's Donald Trump, whether it's Viktor Orban, and ourselves as Europeans looking
08:30the other way, because we need Turkey, as you said, for migration, also to fight off
08:35Russia, you know. So we're actually, in a way, incentivising and encouraging, emboldening
08:42the authoritarians in our neighbourhood and beyond, I would say as well. And that's a
08:46big change from five years ago.
08:48And this is something you've been looking into now at your organisation.
08:51Yes, we have. I mean, often with democracy, it's not a linear process. So sometimes, you
08:57know, there are different countries, they go in different directions. But at least what
09:00the statistic, what, you know, lots of academics have shown over the last decade is that there
09:04is a regression, there's a significant regression, media freedom, you know, right to freedom
09:10of association, freedom of assembly, integrity of elections. And here in Turkey, we can see
09:16that they still hold elections. The real danger is, will they be fair ones? They're likely
09:21to probably be quite free, but will they actually be fair? And we can see there are already
09:25steps being taken, even though the elections are rather far away, to undermine the fairness
09:30and the ability of others to challenge Erdogan. And from that point of view, it takes from
09:35a very clear playbook. There is a clear playbook of undermining judiciary, etc. What we see
09:40actually that's quite interesting is that the response has been less from European governments
09:45and more from the markets. The Turkish, the Turkish Central Bank has been, you know, they've
09:50been forced to try and prop up the currency in different ways. And so from that point
09:55of view, we can see that there is pushback here from authoritarians, people not so sure
10:00about the future. And I'm sure that there will be Turkish citizens that will continue
10:04to protest because they view this as existential for their, for their rights and freedoms in
10:09the future. Well, I've seen a lot of students being interviewed, and they certainly say
10:12they will. But just on press freedom, what you mentioned there, according to reporters
10:16their borders deteriorated last year in Turkey, more detentions and more judicial harassment.
10:22But just looking at you, because you're a negotiator, there is meant to be talks between
10:26Brussels and Ankara in April on the economy and on migration. Should the EU continue with
10:32these talks? Or should they put them on hold because of the situation now? Or how should
10:35they manage this one? Well, I'm, you know, as a diplomat, I'm always in favour of dialogue
10:40and talks. I think the question is not necessarily having talks or not, it's having the vision.
10:44And I think what we lack from Brussels currently is a vision of what is it that we want for
10:48our relationship with Turkey, Turkey as a government, but also the people. But the same
10:52applies to your relationship to all countries in the region in the Middle East. I think
10:56we lack that vision. And until we get there, then we can have, you know, ways and means
11:04to dialogue, to use leverage. But that vision is not very clear now. And what leverage do
11:11we have? Well, the thing is, if your own member states, we've talked about Hungary, Poland,
11:15Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, you know, when you have backsliding on that scale in so many
11:20countries, judicial process is being subverted, media being arrested, if not arrested, putting
11:26censorship on. So we've got our own very serious problems and we're not reacting to them as
11:31strongly as we should. Because once again, once you're a member state, you know, the
11:35leverage is less, but also because these, these authoritarians or these people have
11:40been elected. They were brought in, you know, institutionally, they were brought in. And
11:46so it's not through coups anymore that things are done. You know, subversion of democracy
11:50is not necessarily having a military coup or, you know, someone coming in and destroying
11:55the structures. They're actually using the structures very skillfully. And we're seeing
11:59this across the world and makes it more difficult, doesn't it, to make it clear that, you know,
12:03this is not democracy, we're not dealing with dictators. They turn back and say, yeah,
12:07we were elected. I think that's the dilemma that many of us face now.
12:11And it's not just in Brussels where these concerning conversations are taking place
12:14about what's going on in Turkey. I saw also the Council of Europe, as they gathered as
12:17well in Strasbourg, had a major point on this. But you mentioned EU member states and their
12:22behaviour. And in fact, a lot of people in this town were talking about the Hungarian
12:27government this week who are cracking down on basic rights. We saw last week the Prime
12:31Minister, Viktor Orban, saying he would ban this year's annual gay pride parade and let
12:36police use biometric facial recognition to identify people in order to enforce the ban.
12:41The move that he says aspires to protect children from, quote, woke ideology has sparked outrage
12:47here among many MEPs saying that he should be sanctioned for this. Ken, what is your
12:52take on that?
12:53Well, I think it's part of his general playbook of trying to find scapegoats within society.
12:59And from that point of view, you know, we've seen him undermine, as Shad has said, very
13:04slowly, different parts of the democratic system. He has sort of the right to protest
13:09or right to for people to freedom of assembly in the streets should be allowed. It should
13:16be there. It's in our fundamental in the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Here, in my
13:21opinion, these type of moves are actually designed to take the conversation away from
13:26issues linked to democracy and the democratic behavior towards things related to culture
13:32and this sort of so-called culture wars that many of these leaders, you know, it's part
13:37of the playbook that they use in order to divert attention from other things that they're
13:41doing to the democratic system. And that's the key thing. We need to be looking at what's
13:45happening to the democratic system, because if you look at Viktor Orban, you think about
13:49so we take the example of Turkey or we take the example of other places around the world,
13:54there's a significant impact on EU foreign policy as well, because they're unable to
13:58agree on things because there is a government within the European Union that disagrees with
14:03others because of the undermining of democratic institutions.
14:06Well, like last week, the summit conclusions were signed by 26 countries. But let's be
14:10honest here, Viktor Orban, Jerome, is a very popular man in Hungary. He really won those
14:15elections and he won them rather well. But is this something that might really upset
14:19his supporters?
14:21I mean, I would say, you know, populism in various countries is taken as the threat for
14:29democracy. But I think we need to take it maybe a step backward and look at populism
14:36as an illustration of the frustration of citizens. I think what we don't do well is to listen
14:42carefully to each citizen. If we are democrat, we shouldn't say, you know, those people have
14:48elected someone so they have to pay the price. No, we need to understand where they come
14:52from, why is it that they have issues. And there are issues with our democracy as it
14:56is now. I think there are questions of where powers are, you know, the kind of confusion
15:03between economic power and political power, the role of lobbies, the fact that increasingly
15:09people also see that the rule of law is not necessarily applied in the same way to all.
15:16So I think all these questions have to be addressed. Otherwise, you know, I fear that
15:21what we may see is a trend towards more of this in the coming years.
15:25Well, here, of course, what the Commission will look into using potentially is the legal
15:29tools. Has the Hungarian government broken the law here? We have the AI Act. That's something
15:34that the MEP in charge of the AI Act, Brandy Bonify, told our reporter, Chandra Zerus,
15:40this week that potentially we could see an EU member state here breaching our very own
15:44data protection rules and AI Act using these tools that are supposed to be used to catch
15:49criminals and terrorists just on revelers going out to support gay pride.
15:53But do we actually have the political courage to go ahead and do it? You know, this is what
15:57I wonder about. And, you know, to your point about how skillfully the populace, the far
16:02right populace, deflect from the real issues that face us, which is economic inequality,
16:08economic precarity, and take us on to the terrain of culture wars. They do it very skillfully.
16:13And our centrist politicians fall into the trap and magnify and amplify the discriminatory
16:19xenophobic message of the populace. So there, there's no way the centrist can win because
16:24the simplistic message that the far right is giving on issues to do with racism, migration,
16:29et cetera, minorities, generally, is a very simple message. You blame them for all your
16:34problems. And we can't fight on that terrain. We have to be more aggressive and assertive
16:39on that terrain. And we're not. We're accepting their model. So our far right, in a very,
16:45very subtle way, is sabotaging, has hijacked our European agenda on issues like migration,
16:52union of equality, but also climate, also digital, as you've just pointed out. So all
16:58of the values that we sort of set up as our beacons for the future are being subverted
17:03very skillfully by far right here. They don't have to be in power necessarily, Maeve. They
17:08can do it from the outside just through pressure. It's very, very, very challenging.
17:12And we can see the centre right particularly shifting in many instances towards, you know,
17:20greater support for certain policies coming from the far right. One thing I would say
17:24with regards to Hungary, Viktor Orbán is popular, but we shouldn't lose sight of the
17:28fact that in the last elections, you know, independent observers said that the elections
17:32were not fair, right? So that there is a certain degree with which the ruling regime,
17:39the Fidesz party, has manipulated the elections in order to favour media coverage, things
17:43like this. And so...
17:45But I was there reporting for your news and I met a lot of people who do support him and
17:49did vote for him.
17:50Of course there will be people who support every, you know, and we can see that the rise
17:53now of his main opposition figure, well, there are lots of people in the street at the moment,
17:59you know, turning out to support him forever, but we don't know what will happen in the
18:02next elections. What I think we do know is that there's this move centralising power.
18:07So there's centralising power. Let's try and reduce the amount of independent voices in
18:11the media. Let's try and reduce in parliament. Let's try and reduce in the judicial sector.
18:17So undermining this separation of powers, undermining alternative voices to try and
18:22centralise power. And this leads to, I think, the point that Jerome was making, this
18:27interpretation for people of democracy failing to deliver. What I would argue and what has
18:31been shown, I think there was the Economist Intelligence Unit had a big report about this.
18:35It's failure to deliver fairness. People do not think that there's justice, that there's
18:40fair outcomes being delivered by their democracies. And as a result, you see that, oh gosh, we've
18:47got a bit of a problem. We're not delivering here. Well, let's move to something else.
18:51Let's focus on something else like a pride march in which we can divert attention to
18:57something like this.
18:58Jerome, just from your perspective, how should Brussels deal with this issue?
19:02Well, I think from Brussels, I mean, in the relationship with member states, we should
19:09also see the way we behave on the global stage. I mean, if we undermine international law
19:15when it comes to Israel-Palestine, for instance, what sort of signal are we sending internally
19:21about one of the foundations of the EU, which is rule of law?
19:26Just on rule of law, it has been deteriorating. According to a report, a 1,000-page report
19:31by the Civil Liberties Union for Europe, I'm sure, Ken, you've had a good read of that
19:35report. It refers to what you just referred to, the public service media facing pressure,
19:39the restrictive laws being used to undermine the work of civil society. It feels like we're
19:43really regressing here as opposed to progressing.
19:46And I've been shocked, Maeve, to see the crackdown on pro-Palestinian demonstrations in many,
19:51many parts of Europe. I mean, this assembly of, you know, free assembly is one of our
19:55values, and there's also censorship. There's been action against students. I mean, not
19:59as, you know, not as violently as in the US, but it's been the case here as well, and those
20:04are also against our democratic standards.
20:06Who should be signing up, then, for these values?
20:09Government?
20:10Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the European Union, in some ways, can take a stand with regards
20:15to rule of law. So there's the mechanism rule of law conditionality, that funds from the
20:20European Union budget should not be sent to European Union member states that undermine
20:26the rule of law, related to corruption, misuse of funds, et cetera, et cetera. This is linked
20:31to, somehow, some of those Article 2 values, which find themselves in the Treaty of the
20:36European Union. And so there are some things that can be done. Also, on media freedom,
20:41concentration of media, there's a European Media Freedom Act. There's also, with regards
20:45to the monetization of disinformation on the platforms, so the big tech platforms, Digital
20:51Services Act, there's a Digital Markets Act. So there are several tools that came in with
20:56the last von der Leyen commission, that can be used in order to try and take a stand.
21:01But in the end, also, it is citizens. It's opposition parties. There must be mobilization
21:07to say that these things, we care about these things. We want future elections to be fair.
21:12We want to have rule of law and independent judiciary and a public service media that
21:18is not overtly controlled by the party in power.
21:21So, Ken, they're listing all the tools on the table, but of course, they do need to
21:24be implemented. On that point, we can bring this conversation to an end. Thank you so
21:29much to our panel. And you stay with us here on Euronews, because shortly we'll be diving
21:34into another topic of concern, and that is the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. See you very
21:38soon here on Euronews.
21:48Welcome back to Brussels, my love, our weekly chat show with me, Maeve McMahon. Well, with
21:54the news cycle dominated by attempts to end the war in Ukraine and Trump's tariff threats,
21:59it feels like the Middle East has been slightly forgotten. Even though, just last week, a
22:03fragile ceasefire that came into force on January 19th was broken when Israel struck
22:08Gaza, killing hundreds, including UN staffers. In return, Hamas fired rockets at Israel.
22:14And this Wednesday, we saw hundreds of Palestinians take to the streets to protest against Hamas,
22:19calling for an end to the war. Jérôme, what's your assessment of this situation? Why did
22:23Israel break the ceasefire?
22:26Well, I think there's definitely a domestic political agenda for Prime Minister Netanyahu
22:32and many other considerations. But I think it has also to do with the fact that the EU,
22:38as we speak from Brussels, has not done for many years what it could have done. When I
22:44hear High Rep Perkelas going to Jerusalem a few days ago and saying two-state solution,
22:51when I was posted in Jerusalem, and by the way, I went to Gaza after military operation,
22:56I saw the destruction. I cannot imagine what the destruction can be today. But the two-state
23:02solution, has the EU done anything to deliver on the two-state solution? My view is that
23:08the EU has undermined the two-state solution by fueling in the Palestinian divide. If we
23:14have the division between West Bank, Gaza, Fatah, Hamas, it is largely because the EU
23:19failed to recognise the outcome of the elections in 2006 when Hamas won the elections and preferred
23:25to use its leverage to support the Palestinian Authority under the president of Mahmoud Abbas.
23:31We've also successfully supported all governments of Israel for many years, including those
23:39headed by Prime Minister Netanyahu, knowing very well that those governments were undermining
23:44the two-state solution by the expansion of settlements, and this is ongoing.
23:48Would you agree with that, Shada? And also I'm curious to hear your reaction to the Palestinians
23:52who are out on the streets, they're going against Hamas, very courageously, perhaps.
23:56They are indeed, but historically, I think, Maeve, history will not be kind to the European
24:02Union, and I agree with you, Shihom, on that. I think when it comes to the Middle East,
24:06we're really becoming irrelevant. We're not even, I mean, it's the case also over Ukraine,
24:11and we can talk about it, but in the Middle East, the EU was a player. It wasn't just
24:15a pair, as often people say, but it was a major player, and in those days, we had a voice,
24:20and we were calibrated, really, really balanced in our assessment of what was happening.
24:25What we're seeing now is a really strong pro-Israeli tilt, I mean, more than a tilt.
24:30Israel has been accused of genocide by Amnesty, by Human Rights Watch, and for us,
24:35it's business as usual, as you said. Qaya Qalas was there, we're still trading, we're still exporting
24:41arms, whereas Israel is in clear violation of humanitarian law, the Geneva Conventions.
24:46So we're losing relevance, we're losing credibility, not just with the leaders of the region,
24:52because the leaders will do deals, as we've said, with the EU because of money and all the rest of it,
24:56but with the civil society, the change makers, the agents of change, and of course there will be
25:02some unhappiness with Hamas, of course there will be, because people are suffering.
25:07I just want to see an end to this. Well, exactly, 600 people killed since the ceasefire,
25:12just over a few days, children being killed, so of course there will be anger and frustration
25:17at where things are at, I think that's normal human reaction.
25:21Ken? Yeah, great, I mean, look, I think this week there was over 50,000 people have been killed in Gaza,
25:27it's a lot, a lot of people, and of course people will be outraged, their lives have been turned upside down,
25:36and I agree with you, I think there is a very strong Israeli domestic political agenda here
25:41that is continuing to perpetuate the conflict, and I think from a European Union point of view
25:48I would very much agree with Shada, if you look back at, take the wider region,
25:52you know, the nuclear discussions with Iran, well the EU had a very clear role to play,
25:57the High Representative had a very clear role to play, and you can't see anything like that today.
26:01They were back in the days of Federico Mogherini, who had a key role there,
26:05but we can bring in now a voice from a local professor here in Brussels
26:08to hear his take on the ongoing war, and of course the consequences.
26:16Today, none of the warring parties respect international law, not even the states themselves,
26:22despite being members of institutions like the United Nations.
26:27As a result, humanitarian law is being disregarded.
26:30The UN keeps calling for international law to be respected,
26:33but if it doesn't have the power to enforce it, those calls don't mean much.
26:38If negotiations take place, they will likely be between the United States and Israel.
26:44From the perspective of international law, the Palestinians' right to determine their own future
26:49will not be upheld, as they will most likely have no representatives at the negotiating table.
26:57That was Professor Talha Darinavard there.
27:00A question as well, I wonder, is what is the point of the UN
27:03if it's not achieving its goal of keeping peace?
27:05Well, the United Nations is based on member states, right?
27:08It doesn't have any of its own sort of powers.
27:10It doesn't have a military force, etc.
27:12So it depends on whether member states or members are willing to go ahead,
27:16and in this case, we're divided.
27:18I mean, the European Union also is very, very divided on how we approach this.
27:23It is very, very divided on how we approach Israel-Palestine issue.
27:28And meanwhile, you've got President Trump, whose plans for Gaza are very clear.
27:31He was very vocal, Jerome, about them,
27:33when President Benjamin Netanyahu was in the room with him
27:36saying he wants to turn it into the Riviera of the Middle East.
27:39Yes, I mean, I think that's a plan which, unfortunately, might still be unfolding
27:44even if there's a bit of a pushback.
27:47But I think on the UN, I mean, we have a UN General Assembly resolution of September
27:52setting a deadline of September 2025 for Israel to end its occupation.
27:56So the question is, what is it that, as European Union,
27:59that we're doing on delivering on this UNG resolution, UN General Assembly resolution?
28:04And the leverage is there.
28:06I mean, the EU has a lot of leverage.
28:09We're speaking to an audience of European citizens.
28:11Do European citizens agree that taxpayers' money is used to reconstruct the Gaza Strip,
28:18knowing that it might be destroyed and, you know, down the line?
28:23Do consumers agree to continue buying settlement products,
28:28products coming from Israeli settlements,
28:30in a situation where the EU policy is very clear,
28:33settlements are illegal under international law?
28:35So I think, connecting also to what we discussed about democracy,
28:38you know, citizens may want also to have a bit of a say
28:41on the way we define our leverage and what we can do in this part of the world.
28:45Okay.
28:46We used to send Israel in the past, under Javier Solano, we used to send them a bill.
28:50Every time they destroyed an EU-funded television station or school
28:54or whatever they used to do those days, we used to send them a bill.
28:57We also had restrictions on imports of illegal, of exports from illegal settlements.
29:02We don't do that anymore.
29:04Okay.
29:05And for more on that story, you can take a look at euronews.com,
29:09but we'll have to conclude on that point.
29:11Thank you so much to our panellists for your insights and your analysis.
29:14And thank you so much for watching.
29:16Stay with us here on Euronews.
29:26Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love,
29:29our weekly talk show here on Euronews.
29:32I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with our panel this weekend,
29:35Shada Islam, the director at New Horizons Project,
29:38Jen Godfrey, the director of the European Partnership for Democracy,
29:41and Jérôme Bellion-Jordain, a negotiation expert and former European diplomat,
29:46we're just taking a look back at the news of the week.
29:49And this week we saw the French president, Emmanuel Macron,
29:52making good on his promise to keep supporting Ukraine
29:55by hosting the so-called Coalition of the Willing in Paris on Thursday.
29:59The Ukrainian president, Zelensky, was there to physically update his counterparts
30:03on the state of play of the Saudi-led peace talks.
30:06So I guess the question to the panellists here is, was it a success?
30:09It was called, obviously, the Coalition of the Willing,
30:12but the amount of willingness seemed to be quite different among Member States, Jérôme.
30:15And the question is the Coalition of the Willing to do what?
30:18You know, if we talk about negotiation, I mean, I believe that, you know,
30:22this war could have been avoided maybe through negotiation.
30:25Back in 2014?
30:27Back in 2022, you know, before the war.
30:29I think the toolbox of negotiation has not been used fully,
30:33and we've left it to the US, Biden at the time,
30:36and the Russian Federation put in to escalate and leading to a situation of war.
30:42Now, the question is, you know, what I see from the EU side
30:46is that there seems to be an agreement that we need to continue supporting Ukraine, military.
30:51But there's no vision for the end game, for how to get out of this conflict.
30:57And experts agree that the military solution is not an option.
31:01So we'll have to have a negotiation.
31:03And if we continue in this way, I'm afraid we'll leave it to the US
31:08and the Russian Federation to agree on terms,
31:11and the EU will be nowhere to be seen to influence the course of events.
31:16And domestically, Charles, we saw Mario Macron pledging $2 billion to support the Ukrainians,
31:20but a lot of French complaining that he should be using that money to fix France,
31:24as opposed to help Ukraine.
31:25Well, this is going to start happening across Europe, I have a feeling,
31:28because, you know, governments are going ahead,
31:30and I think in a sense rightly pushing for more aid to Ukraine
31:34and giving supplies, military supplies, etc.
31:36I don't think there's any harm in doing that.
31:38The problem is, where's the money going to come from?
31:41Are you going to be cutting our European budgets on social security,
31:45social welfare, health, education?
31:48You know, our society is polarized at the moment
31:51and suffering really from economic precarity.
31:54It's a real thing for real people outside.
31:56And I'm not sure our ministers and our EU policymakers realize
32:00how precarious life is for many of our citizens.
32:03And I think all of that will come into play as we go further down.
32:06The problem is, at the moment, there is once again, I think, you know,
32:09we're working in a very, very fragile environment.
32:12We don't hold the reins to what happened.
32:14Those are in Moscow and Washington.
32:16And all we can do is watch from the sidelines
32:18and make some suggestions, just hoping someone will hear them.
32:21And I'm not sure that they're willing ears to hear that.
32:24Watch from the sidelines seems to be quite a regular thing, right, for us.
32:27Yeah, but I do think that there is some leverage on the EU side
32:30linked to sanctions, so things like SWIFT, et cetera.
32:34But, you know, I think there's a good saying which describes a predicament,
32:37which is if you're not sitting at the table, you're on the menu.
32:40And this is really a bit of a...
32:42It's a big problem for Ukraine, most directly,
32:45but it is a big problem for European security.
32:47European countries, European Union, should be at the table
32:51for big discussions like this.
32:53But because of the lack of military punch, they're not.
32:57And we can listen now, actually, to President Zelensky
32:59and get his take on the talks.
33:07We need a movement towards real peace, towards guaranteed security.
33:12And we all need this, in Ukraine, in Europe, in America,
33:17everyone in the world who wants peace in international relations.
33:21Russia is the only entity that is dragging out this war
33:24and mocking our people and the whole world.
33:28And to pressure Russia towards peace, strong things, strong steps are needed.
33:37President Zelensky there, making it clear that he wants peace,
33:41but as you said, it would be tricky to get it,
33:44especially with not having the Europeans at the table.
33:46And, Shadow, we saw this week the European Commission come out with a plan
33:49to help Europeans get us ready for a crisis.
33:52EU governments are meant to have this survival kit for us,
33:56make sure that we can stockpile food and medical supplies.
33:59Is this a good idea, to get us ready for war here on this continent,
34:02or is it a bit exaggerated?
34:04I'm afraid I think it's a bit exaggerated.
34:07I think we should be pushing for diplomacy and peace
34:09and getting our citizens ready for peace rather than for war.
34:13You know, I was born in a country which was perpetually at war with its neighbour,
34:17and it really sends real chills down my spine
34:20to see Europe heading in the same direction.
34:22I think we should really give diplomacy a chance, peace a chance,
34:25and prepare our citizens for that.
34:28And I don't think we're doing this, and it really worries me.
34:31It worries me. We do need security. I'm not saying we don't.
34:34We definitely need to boost our defences and our security.
34:37But that should go hand in hand with building up a climate for peace as well.
34:42Because there's a lot of anxiety as well out there.
34:44A lot of people, they're not even turning on the television.
34:46If you watch the news, they're too scared.
34:47They should be watching us.
34:49I think there's a bit of a difference, though.
34:52If you're sitting in Finland or Estonia, Lithuania,
34:57I can understand the preparedness,
34:59because Russia has invaded its neighbour under very flimsy pretexts,
35:04I mean incredibly flimsy pretexts.
35:06What's to say that it won't repeat that?
35:08I think it's different if you're in Portugal or you're in Italy.
35:11I think it's a different reality to people who are in Finland,
35:15who are preparing, people, reservists, dusting off bunkers and things like this.
35:21It does seem a bit exaggerated,
35:23but who are we to say when we're not sitting there ourselves?
35:27There's the threat as well of cyber attacks, hybrid warfare
35:30and then potential armed aggression.
35:32But also just looking to the week ahead,
35:33the Commission will be coming out with a plan to provide 2 billion
35:36to help projects to cut our dependence even on critical raw materials
35:40and minerals from outside the European Union.
35:42This sounds like a good plan.
35:44Well, it is, yeah.
35:46I think the issue of sovereignty of Europe is to be seen in many ways.
35:51I do agree with what was said about, you know,
35:54there's a bit of a climate of feeding this idea of fear
35:57and fear from the Russian Federation.
35:59But if we look across the board, I mean,
36:01there are many other challenges that we face.
36:04And I think, you know, raw materials, fine,
36:07but it's also the question of where do we get our supply from?
36:12How do we handle the relationship with the states
36:14connecting to what we discussed about democracy?
36:17Are we willing to compromise on, you know,
36:20on democracy to get raw materials?
36:22I mean, all these issues should be seen as a whole and not in silo.
36:28Okay, and just on the rare materials that the Trump administration
36:31is hoping to get from the Ukrainians,
36:33we're looking like they could come to a deal very, very soon.
36:36But for now, we can bring this conversation to an end.
36:39Thank you so much to our panellists this weekend.
36:41Shada Isam, Director at New Horizons Project.
36:44Ken Godfrey, the Director of the European Partnership for Democracy.
36:48And Jérôme Bellion-Jordan, a negotiation expert
36:50and former European diplomat.
36:52And thank you so much for watching.
36:54Keep the conversation going. Reach out to us here.
36:57It's brusselsmylove at euronews.com.
36:59That is our email address.
37:01You can also follow us directly on social media.
37:03And we will get back to you. Take care and see you soon.
37:09END