Sunderland injury news latest after Coventry City drubbing...
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Simlandeco.
00:23My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley, and we might be in the middle of an international
00:28break, but we've still got plenty of Sunderland things to be discussing. James, we'll start with
00:34a pretty disappointing week, I think it's fair to say, from Sunderland. Last time out, obviously,
00:39a 1-1 draw across the Preston North End and then a really heavy defeat against Coventry City away
00:45from home on Saturday. I mean, two results that obviously aren't ideal in terms of what it means
00:52for Sunderland in the league table, but also weren't necessarily ideal in terms of performance
00:58either. No, I think both results probably now mean that Sunderland's top two chances
01:06are over. It was looking slim anyway, but I think at one point Sunderland were like eight points
01:11behind and now it's down to 11 or something like that. I haven't got the league table in front of
01:15me, but yeah, Preston at home was disappointed they didn't seem to turn up. Obviously, great
01:19equaliser from Mundell, I think Coventry away was quite concerning. I thought their atmosphere
01:25at home was absolutely superb. They looked like a team bang up in form with momentum.
01:31They looked like they've really bought into what Frank Lampard's done and they just really
01:34turned Sunderland over. They seemed to want it more. Sunderland seemed to be a team going
01:39through the motions. As I say, I think that sort of home atmosphere really seemed to impact
01:43Sunderland. They couldn't get the foot on the ball. Yeah, just outworked them, outmuscled them
01:49and there was a lot of Sunderland players who were under par. They look a bit jaded at the moment,
01:53which is obviously not ideal going into the end of the season and a potential playoff campaign.
01:59I think what's concerning from a Sunderland perspective as well was that we haven't really
02:03seen a performance like that since the back end of last season. Obviously, Sunderland lost the last
02:08two home games against Sheffield, Wednesday 2-0, which was a pretty meek performance.
02:16They also lost against Blackburn Rovers, didn't they, 5-1. That was pretty poor as well towards
02:22the back end of the season. I haven't really felt like that after a Sunderland game since then,
02:28really, until the game against Coventry away. So, it is a little bit worrying. I think there's a
02:34little bit of recency bias there. It's two bad results in what has otherwise been a decent
02:39season. Listeners may have tuned into the Daniel Story podcast we did the other day,
02:45the national report from the Ion newspaper. As it stands, Sunderland are on course to finish
02:51the highest out of any team in the country without Premier League money or parachute
02:56payments, which is an achievement in itself, given where Sunderland have come from. But
03:00you just felt like at times this season, there's been a little bit more there for Sunderland.
03:06And perhaps with a few more plays, a little bit more luck, a few less injuries,
03:12the top two could have been there to have been attacked. But I don't think it's meant to be.
03:16That said, there is a potential playoff campaign to come. But it's whether Sunderland can now
03:20sort themselves back out. Because I often think, Jase, that once you've peaked on the momentum
03:26mountain for a season and you start coming back down the other side, I think it's very hard to
03:31peak again. I'm not saying it's impossible by any means, but you'd rather Sunderland were just
03:36steady away and then took it to another level in the playoffs rather than come down the other side
03:42of the mountain and struggle and go through the motions for a couple of weeks. But a bit of
03:46positivity is probably needed because I do think over two legs that Sunderland can just about beat
03:53anybody in the division. I really, truly believe that. Whether that happens or not, I don't know.
03:58But it's just a shame really because the season just seems to have stalled and stuttered a little
04:04bit. Yes, I think you make some very valid points. I think the Coventry game was almost a bit of an
04:12eye-opener because, like you sort of alluded to there, it was the first time where we've genuinely
04:18seen Sunderland, for want of a better word, capitulate this season. They've obviously
04:23had disappointing results, but more often than not, they've sort of at least hung in the game
04:30and been there or thereabouts come the end of the contest. I mean, it's the first time that they've
04:35lost a game by two or more goals since May of last year. I think that tells us
04:42its own story, doesn't it? Look, there have been disappointing results this season, but
04:47even in those matches, Sunderland have not been a million miles away equally. There have been
04:52disappointing performances, but there have been times where Sunderland have still managed to come
04:57out of those games with, whether it is even just a draw, they've come out with something to show
05:02for it. Whereas this was the first time where we sort of got the worst of both, if you like,
05:08it was a bad performance and a bad result to match as well. I think the key word that you've
05:13mentioned there is momentum, you know, because it is going to be something that people are talking
05:18about a lot, that they've already spoken about a lot with, you know, recording this on Thursday,
05:22it was several games removed from the Coventry City match now. And one of the key questions that
05:26I've sort of seen during rounds is, you know, like, what does this mean for Sunderland's momentum?
05:31And I think it's a fair one as well, because I think you're right, like, at this moment in time,
05:35I don't think it's particularly out of line to suggest that Sunderland will very, very probably
05:40be in the playoffs. And you do want to be going into those two semi-final legs, feeling as if
05:46you've got the bit between your teeth. And obviously, you know, if Sunderland were to put in
05:54another few performances, like the one we saw against Coventry City, then you would have to
05:59say that they wouldn't necessarily be inspiring confidence in that regard. That being said,
06:06there's every chance that, you know, this could just be a blip. I think you make, again, a very
06:10valid point about a lot of players looking a little bit jaded, perhaps a little bit fatigued.
06:15It's been a very long season with a very young squad. And I do think that it was always an
06:22inevitability that at some point it was going to catch up with Sunderland a little bit. And
06:27to that end, I sort of wonder if the result against Coventry, if it were to happen, probably
06:35couldn't have happened at a better time. And what I mean by that is that obviously you go and lose
06:40that game, but then you have, with the vast majority of the squad at least, a fortnight on
06:44the training ground before they're back in action against Millwall on the 29th. You know what I
06:49mean? And it gives you a chance to perhaps rest, recuperate. I know obviously some players have
06:54gone away on international duty, but it does give you a chance to sort of gather yourself a little
06:58bit and to maybe just steady the ship and perhaps sort of just reassert the idea that actually one
07:05bad result does not make for a promotion put, which is sort of crass. You know what I mean?
07:12Yeah, absolutely right. Because like, you know, we try and call a spade a spade on this podcast,
07:17don't we? And we, you know, we highlight bad performances, we highlight good performances, but
07:21yes, it's frustrating, but there's no reason to panic, is there really? Like Sunderland's,
07:26as you say, Sunderland's top six spot is definitely assured. If this turns into a little bit of a
07:32pattern and continues, you know, Sunderland losing games by more than a one goal margin or losing a
07:37number of games on the spin, then yes, you can start to get concerned. But it is worth noting,
07:42as we did earlier on the podcast, that it's been a really, really good season. I think the
07:46frustration comes from as well is that perhaps this has been coming, we'd seen Sunderland look
07:52a bit jaded in a few games recently. And one of the main criticisms, I think, of this Sunderland
07:56side is that although they don't lose many games by more than a one goal margin, they don't really
08:02win many games by more than a one goal margin either. It's only happened really a few times
08:08this season and that's no bad thing. But I thought, Jason, at one point this season,
08:13you know, around the Sheffield United game at home, maybe on New Year's Day, I thought
08:18that Sunderland team looked like it had the potential to maybe step up a few levels
08:23and start really putting teams to the sword, start really being clinical. I thought around
08:27that time that somebody was due a hiding and it didn't seem to happen. You're right to mention
08:32that this squad is very young because it is. And I think sometimes Sunderland do lower the level
08:39to play teams. I'm thinking of like the Plymouth game, both Plymouth games, Hull City game at the
08:44stadium of like Preston, like all respect to those teams who've played well against Sunderland. You
08:50have to say that tactically they've set up well. But sometimes I feel like Sunderland sort of get
08:54dragged into a dogfight when they don't need to, they just need to let the quality shine through.
08:59And that's the characteristics you're going to get with a young side. And fans of every club
09:05will say this as well, but, you know, Sunderland have had a few injury issues. As you mentioned,
09:09I do think the break's coming at a good time. La Brice will get a bit of time to work on them
09:14on the training pitch, but they're actually away at the moment. I don't think there's anybody
09:17playing staff-wise, maybe other than the injured players at the academy of like currently. I don't
09:22think they'll be back until next week, which I think is a good thing just mentally and physically
09:27to be able to reset. They've played a lot of football, haven't they? And there's been a
09:32fair few ups and downs this season. So I think, you know, Millwall at home is a tough test,
09:37isn't it really? You know, Alex Neil coming back to the stadium of like where he's not well
09:42liked and he's won before, hasn't he? So won against Sunderland before by a large scoreline
09:49when he was Stoke City boss. So that'll be interesting. Millwall are always difficult
09:52to play against, but you'd like to see Sunderland come up with a reaction now. And, you know, a lot
09:57of these lads are playing, like they're very talented young players, but you're playing for
10:02your future this season as well in terms of your standing in the game. They're all looking upwards,
10:07you know, Chris Rigg, Joe Bellingham. I'm not saying that they're eyeing the next transfer
10:11deal or anything like that. That's not the headline, but they're all playing for big
10:14futures in the game. They've all been tipped for England honours and international call-ups and
10:19big moves to Europe and all of this. And let's be honest, that might not happen with Sunderland.
10:24These things probably won't happen with Sunderland. They'll probably not play in European competitions
10:27with Sunderland. I'd love it to happen, but it's unlikely. They probably won't get called up with
10:31Sunderland. So, they're now playing now to sort of prove that hype and hopefully that could be
10:37quite a powerful thing and they can sort of get Sunderland into a playoff campaign. What does
10:41worry me, though, is like the potential narratives in that playoff campaign, like playing at Coventry
10:46again. I just, I do not like at all because they just, it was quite abundantly clear at the CBS
10:52arena that they just absolutely hate us. And I think the feeling from Sunderland fans is probably
10:57mutual, but it was like, it almost felt like a derby. It was strange. They just really, really do
11:02not like us. And there's obviously, there's a lot of history there. So, them over two legs against
11:07the team where just everything seems to go wrong all of the time for us, I wouldn't fancy. And then
11:11there's like Tony Mowbray's West Brom as well, just kicking around. Middlesbrough aren't that
11:15far off it. And I'm just like, I just, any of those three, I'm just thinking that could be like
11:20an absolute nightmare. And it's probably come back to bite me, but like just give me Bristol City or
11:24something, something where there's not that much history with, and there's not that much
11:28needle and bite about it, because I think the other three really concern me in different ways.
11:34Yeah. I mean, you know, Sunderland are going to Sunderland on, I think it's fair to say,
11:38you know, they always find new ways. Yeah, look, I think what you're saying about
11:44narratives is really pertinent. And what I would sort of bring into that as well is that,
11:49you know, the mood around the club, or at least around the fan base, I mean, like over the past
11:56few days since that Coventry match, you know, when you contrast that to the sort of buoyancy
12:01that accompanied that late push into the playoffs under Mowbray, now I know obviously circumstances
12:06are different, but there are also similarities. There was a lack of expectation heading into the
12:13season, or at least a lack of belief that someone could sort of perform to a level where they would
12:17be in any sort of contention for a promotion push. That was true after they'd just come up
12:22from League One. And I think it's probably fair to say that in the eyes of many, it was true when
12:27the Brits first came in as well. You know, but the difference was that, you know, that late push
12:34towards the playoffs under Mowbray, I felt like they were chasing something, felt like they were
12:39really striving to get to somewhere that they didn't necessarily have the right to be. Whereas
12:44because of the way that the season has panned out this time, and because of the fact that Sunderland
12:48has been so assured in a playoff spot for so long, but also chasing automatic promotion for so long,
12:54and then that's fallen away over the past month or so, like, obviously, for a little while,
12:59it's been in doubt, but in terms of realistic, but you know, if we're talking realistic chances
13:04of making it over the past few weeks, it has really sort of deteriorated. I just wonder how
13:10that affects the sort of mentality side of it, where you go from having this real aspirational
13:18feel under Mowbray to perhaps having to contend with a little bit of disappointment that you
13:22haven't quite reached the top two, when in reality, if we're calling a spade a spade, you know,
13:28Sunderland are in a stronger position than they were. That promotion push under Mowbray, do you
13:34know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't mind the matter if somebody fancies, you know, un-injuring
13:38him and send him to Sunderland, that would be lovely. Yeah, oh God, can you imagine right now?
13:45The funny thing about that season though, Jase, is that I touched upon it earlier, so
13:51around the same time in that season under Mowbray, Sunderland lost against Alex Neil Stokes at the
13:56stadium of like 5-1, and still made the playoffs, and I think they went like unbeaten in
14:03quite a few, I haven't got time to count it, but it's interesting, isn't it, that sometimes
14:09you do get these little results in a season, and you are able to push on. I'm trying to cast my
14:13mind back, but I'm like, after we got beaten 5-1 against Stokes in that season, I doubt you could
14:19find many people saying that Sunderland would make the playoffs, because for ages it just didn't look
14:23like they were golden, who did that? And I think certainly this team is, although I really liked
14:28that team, and I had some really good players in like Clarke and Ahmad, obviously Stewart was
14:32injured by that, I do think this team has a little bit more about it, especially up front with
14:37Maienda and Wilson Isidor, so yeah, I do think there's a lot to be positive about. I do get the
14:44frustrations, because I feel like, because of Sunderland's history in the Championship and the
14:49Premier League in our lifetimes, and in the lifetimes of many supporters, and given the
14:53size of the club where it's historically resided within the football pyramid, when there's a chance
14:58to get promoted, you really want to see the club take it, and you know, expectation and impatience
15:06can rear its ugly head, and understandably so, because success has been, you know, few and far
15:10between, hasn't it, especially spending four seasons in League One. We also had COVID, and we've seen
15:17other teams do really, really well, just in general, like, you know, the Brighton and the
15:22Brentford's of this world, and you sort of feel there's no reason Sunderland can't have that
15:27really, and it sort of makes you want it all the more the closer you get, and I think that's
15:31where that impatience comes from, is a sort of a real want to see this club back where it belongs.
15:38Definitely, definitely, and I think you're right when you say it as well, that part of the thing
15:44this season is that that's been exacerbated by the fact that there have been so many instances
15:48where Sunderland have felt so close to going to that next level, and I mean, you know, you sort
15:54of mentioned around the turn of the year in the Sheffield United result, and how it felt as if
15:58Sunderland were maybe simmering and bubbling up towards something a little bit more. I mean, what
16:03I would say about that is that I actually think that they've been unfortunate, not just with
16:09injuries, but then also, like, the areas of the pitch in which they've sustained those injuries,
16:14so what I mean by that is that, you know, if you think about, we constantly talk about the need to
16:19sort of rest and rotate that young midfield three, Dan Nail, Joe Bellingham, Chris Rigg, I'm sure
16:26that Lebris would have been a lot more forthcoming in that if he'd been able to rely upon
16:31Nalum Brown, who was missing since November, or if he'd been able to get Salis Abdul-Samed
16:37up to full speed, but we've never really seen that this season, and it's limited his options.
16:42You know, you could say a similar thing about Padraig Roberts out on the right wing.
16:47Ian Fader's not been fit enough, consistently enough, to give him a proper break, and obviously
16:54Mayender played out there a little bit, and there have been times that he's tried to mix it up,
16:58but I think it's evident that nobody aside from Roberts, in terms of the current contingent who
17:05are actually fit and match ready, nobody apart from Roberts would see that as their preferred
17:09position, and I think, you know, that has been a thorn in the side of Lebris, and I do think that
17:14what it's ultimately meant is that if Sunderland had had that full depth available, if they'd had
17:22that full strength and those reserves to be able to call upon, who's to say what they might have
17:26been able to do, but there have been times this season where Lebris has kind of had to work with
17:32one hand tied behind his back, and I think it's credit to him that it's perhaps not spoken about
17:37a great deal, because Sunderland have generally managed to keep on trundling along quite nicely,
17:42or at least nicely enough, to a point where they're still in the promotion picture, but
17:47certainly the playoff picture with, what is it, eight games to go now, you know, so
17:51there have been tricky extenuating circumstances, and I do think you're right, I think because of
17:56those extenuating circumstances, it's almost, it's the carrot on the end of the stick, isn't it,
18:01you just, no, it is just there, and you can't, and a lot of those, a lot of those games,
18:05Chase, as well, like Sunderland have been unlucky, like Sheffield United away, like,
18:08like what on earth happened there, Sunderland probably should have won that, they lost it in
18:11the last minute, there have been a lot of last minute goals, which I guess you can argue does
18:15become a little bit of a trend after a while, but yeah, I completely agree, and a lot of Sunderland's
18:20bad results before, like the Coventry result, and then maybe it's like the Hull and Plymouth results
18:26at home, a lot of the bad results you could argue, like, they were mitigating circumstances, and just
18:30to touch on Lebris as well, you mentioned him sort of doing it with one arm tied behind his back in
18:35terms of injuries and stuff like that, I also think, like, he's learning on the job as well,
18:38massively, it's his first season in English football, you know, he's done very well, but
18:43it's a strange little game over here in the championships, like a hugely competitive league
18:48with a lot of games, I remember when Lebris first came to the club, all he could mention was, like,
18:53the amount of games, like, yeah, like, the amount of games, he kept saying, like, the amount of games
18:57you have to play in this league is crazy, is pretty much what he was intimating, and it is in a way,
19:02and I think he's had to learn on the job that, yeah, teams in the championship, they will bring
19:09physical players on to change the game all at once, like a bomb squad in the second half,
19:14and they're not just going to let you sit on a lead and play your pretty football,
19:19they're going to try and disrupt that, you know, you're going to go away to Coventry,
19:23and you might not realise that there's a bit of a rivalry between Coventry and Sunderland,
19:28and when you get there, they're going to make it ridiculously uncomfortable for you, and
19:32I think he's just sort of slowly learning little bits and pieces, whilst, to be honest,
19:36still having done quite a good job, but he's extremely studious, and, like, the injuries as
19:42well, like, Dan Ballard's been out for pretty much the majority of the season, hasn't he, one way or
19:46the other, he's returned for a few, like, he's, people forget that not long ago, we were talking
19:50about him as one of the best defenders in the league, he's absolutely superb on his day,
19:55and probably would be in the Premier League already if it wasn't for his injury issues,
19:59but I still think there's a lot to like about the season, there's a lot to like about Lebris,
20:03there's no reason to throw the baby out the bathwater, I just, I think it's always the
20:07case, isn't it, that when you've had a bad result, and you've got a two-week international break,
20:12it's all people talk about, it's all people remember, and it stews, and everybody sort of
20:16goes over the same ground, and yeah, but it's a big one, really, against Millwall, just to turn
20:23that tide, I've often heard Sunderland described as, like, an oil tanker, and it is, once you get
20:27it going, it's very hard to stop, but it's also very hard to start again, when it has stopped,
20:32very hard to turn around when it's pointing the wrong way, as we know over the years,
20:36and so yeah, hopefully, the oil tanker just needs to nudge in the right direction against Millwall.
20:42Hopefully, hopefully, and it's might as well, you know, we're talking about all these injuries,
20:45we haven't even mentioned the fact that Enzo Olofeira has been missing.
20:49Yeah, exactly, and Sergen, obviously, Sergen obviously going off against Coventry City,
20:54and I just, I meant to mention this at the time, you mentioned Alan Brown, but
20:58like, I was really surprised by Lebris that he didn't play Alan Brown from the start against
21:03Coventry, I thought that's a change he would make, he didn't, as you say, that midfield just
21:08looks like it needs freshening up with Job and Rigg, and then he brought him on as a right winger
21:12in the second half, which I thought was a bit bizarre, but you know, he's probably forgotten
21:18more than I know about football, has Reggie, so we'll give him a pass on that one.
21:21Yeah, we will, we will, you mentioned Dennis Sergen there, and I just kind of want to talk
21:26about him, there's a few lines from the international break, a few call-ups that I
21:31just sort of want to pick your brains on. We'll start with Dennis Sergen, because you've really
21:37got a feel for the lad, haven't you, he's got his first call-up for England under-21s,
21:41feels like a really positive step, and a deserved step as well, for my money, in his career,
21:47in his career, and then he's obviously gone off injured against Coventry on Saturday afternoon,
21:53and Sunderland have since confirmed that he now basically has dipped out of that England
21:57camp, he won't be part of it, and like I say, just awful timing, isn't it really?
22:04Yeah, I do feel for the lad, I think his call-ups warranted over the course of the season,
22:09I do feel like he has been perhaps not at his usual standard after his wrist surgery,
22:15or his hand surgery, I think he's come back and done okay, but he hasn't sort of hit those
22:20heights that he had earlier on in the season, I mean that Coventry game at home when he scored
22:23that goal was brilliant, and around then his levels were sort of through the roof, but
22:29just maybe he's like Sunderland, hasn't really hit those heights consistently towards
22:35the back end of the season in this little run, but he's a player that I like, he's a player
22:39whereby Sunderland's defence is always going to be better when he's fit and available for
22:43selection, he's streets ahead of Leo Hjelda with all respect to Leo Hjelda, and I think his injury
22:48would be a blow if he isn't back for Millwall, obviously Sunderland haven't really noted the
22:53extent of his injury yet, so you never know his withdrawal from England under 21s could be
23:01one in which they've said basically don't play him because we're going to need him for Millwall,
23:05we need to protect him, all of that sort of stuff, you hope that's the case, and it's with a view to
23:10him being fit for the championship, and the worst case scenario was that he's been withdrawn
23:15because he's going to be injured for a while, which obviously we don't have that information yet,
23:19I think what's positive from Lebris' standpoint is that he did strongly hint that Hjelda will be
23:25back, so he could probably play in that left-back position, he's looked okay, obviously got that
23:30assist against Sheffield Wednesday, he's probably going to look better the more he plays in fairness
23:34to him, because he's been so in and out the side, hasn't he? Other option you could have,
23:38Lugon 9 going over at a left-back, but then you're short on centre-backs then, aren't you,
23:42with Jenson Sealt only having just returned, it would be a big ass to throw him in against Millwall,
23:47he came on in the second half against Coventry City obviously, but I don't think that was the
23:50plan at all, to be honest, I think that was enforced more than anything, so all of a sudden
23:56that defence where you thought it was well-stocked, it's starting to look a bit, the cupboard's looking
24:02a bit barer than it did, isn't it, with Ballard being out, he's expected to be a little bit longer
24:07than Lefebvre's knee, so maybe he's two or three weeks behind, so I don't know, Lefebvre might be
24:13back for Millwall, he might be back for West Brom, but yeah, it's like with injuries, it's like
24:19you get given one thing, but you get two things taken away, isn't it, with Sunderland, like
24:23we had this brilliant French centre midfielder playing on the left wing and then
24:29Romain Mundell's injured, but he comes back and then Lefebvre gets injured and it's just like,
24:33oh great, we can choose, we can now choose from Luke O'Neill, Dan Ballard and Chris Meppan, but
24:38oh wait, Ballard's out again and it's just, it's so frustrating, isn't it, from a fan perspective
24:43and obviously from their perspective as well, the players. Absolutely, I was going to say like,
24:48however frustrating it is for us, it must be doubly so for Denis Sirkin himself, I mean again,
24:53that's with the caveat that we don't know the extent of it, maybe it's a precautionary thing,
24:59you hope it's a precautionary thing because the prospect of him being sidelined again,
25:04you know, like you say, he started, well first of all, he had such a frustrating season last time
25:09out, he then came back this season, he started like a steam train, he was just unplayable at
25:14times in the early knock-ins of the season and then like you say, he's a little bit disrupted,
25:19probably hasn't quite been at the same level since, but he's still, you know, far and away
25:26something's best left back and when he's good, he's very, very bloody good, you know what I mean
25:32and like I say, getting that call up, I'm sure would have been a very big deal to him and I
25:40guess you just got to hope that it's, you know, the next time it comes around, he's in contention
25:46again and he does get that nod. I want to also mention Eliza Maienda, he's been called up to
25:53Spain under 21s for their latest camp and he sort of manifested this one, didn't he? He gave an
25:59interview with AS, the continental outlet and he said like, you know, I want to be in contention,
26:04I want to be in that squad and then three or four days later, he was in that squad and I think
26:09again, as we were saying about Serkin, very much a nod for his entirely warranted. Yeah,
26:16really impressive season for him, I think his numbers this season are absolutely fantastic,
26:21I've been hugely impressed just with his general play and his ability to bounce back from big
26:28moments that haven't gone his way. I mean, the stick he got after the Blackburn Rovers game,
26:33he missed the chance, that game ended 2-2, I think that was on Boxing Day, wasn't it? And then
26:37not long after a go to Stoke, we lost at Stoke, the mood was pretty glib, he missed a chance,
26:42you know, the stick he was getting was, you know, some of it justified in terms of
26:47constructive criticism, but a lot of it as well as your usual not fit to wear the shirt,
26:51send them back to the under-21s, all this sort of stuff, to bounce back from that has been really,
26:57really impressive and just as, I mean, me and Philip discussed this on the podcast as well,
27:02his career arc really at Sunderland has been really interesting, he came in obviously
27:08under Tony Mowbray, didn't play a lot at all, was behind Hemiya, goes to Hibbs, it doesn't work out
27:14from there at all, he comes back to Sunderland, he starts under Lebris at the start of the season
27:20and during pre-season as well, really impresses and he's got like raw quality, hasn't he? He's
27:25got raw pace, he can finish, he's only going to get better, really, really nice guy to talk to
27:30as well, very level-headed, doubt the worth. I asked him, I think, about his time at Hibbs and
27:36what he made of that, whether it was tough and he was actually really, really grateful for the
27:40opportunity, really grateful for the different experience of playing in a different league and
27:45working under a different coach and staff and all that sort of stuff and that really impressed me,
27:49actually, in a sense that he's managed to take something positive from that situation, which
27:56on paper might not have necessarily looked like it had gone very well, but he's still trying to
28:02get something out of it. So, I really like him as a person from the brief conversation I had with
28:07him and I think as a player, he's fantastic, but it's a bit of a debate that one now, isn't it?
28:12Like, Wilson Isidor and Isa Maianda, who's Lebris going to pick? I'll probably bring, I don't know
28:18what I'd do, I'd probably bring Isidor back in to play Millwall and have Maianda on the bench. I
28:24don't think I'd go 4-4-2, I think that experiment in my head's over now, but yeah, Maianda's
28:31been classy and he deserves that Spain under-21 call-up and I think, like, don't be surprised in
28:36the summer if his team's linked with him because it's already sort of started, hasn't it?
28:41Yeah, it has, it has and I think that, you know, the biggest compliment you can pay him is that
28:48he has forced that debate about whether or not he should be starting over Isidor, you know,
28:53and I don't think that anybody necessarily over the summer would have anticipated that, but you
28:59can't argue with the quality of his performances, you can't argue with his work ethic, you can't
29:04argue with the way that he applies himself and the thing that I always think about him is, you know,
29:09the rate at which he is developing and the rate at which he seems to be getting to grips with the
29:14Championship as a division, you know, hopefully he won't be in the Championship next season,
29:18hopefully someone will be in the Premier League, but the rate that he seems to be getting to grips
29:22with it, what's he going to be like in 12 months' time, what's he going to be like in two years'
29:26time when he's still only 21, you know, there's a huge amount of potential there and it is massively,
29:32massively exciting. Another one that I wanted to ask you about, James, a bit of an interesting
29:37one is from sort of a failed Hibs loanee to a very, very successful one, Nectar Triantis,
29:43he has received his first senior call-up to the Australian squad, I think that anybody who's paid
29:50even half attention to him up in Scotland this season would suggest that that is very much
29:58something which is deserved, he's been instrumental in Hibernian's push towards Europe
30:03this term. I mean, the big question around him going into the summer is going to be whether or
30:09not he has enough to bring that back to Sunderland and force his way into the Christmas plans because
30:14he's got this new position as a deep-lying midfielder, it's a position that, you know,
30:19we've already alluded to the fact that something perhaps could do with another body just to
30:22help with rotation and that and if Triantis could come back and be that player it would,
30:27well, it would certainly be an interesting one, wouldn't it? I think he's definitely worth a look
30:31in pre-season, isn't he? Obviously, he's playing in central midfield now, he was brought to Sunderland
30:36as a defender, you know, he found opportunities hard to come by, didn't he? That's why he was
30:41sent out on loan to Hibs and, yeah, he definitely warrants that chance because he's done everything
30:45you want of a loanee, hasn't he, really? I mean, if he doesn't warrant a chance at Sunderland
30:49in pre-season and at the beginning of next season then I think you just have to let him go to Hibs
30:54permanently, don't you? Because, or go elsewhere, I think, you know, it was clearly a long-term
31:00signing though so I can't envisage a scenario in which Sunderland don't take another look at him
31:04because he looks to me, I haven't seen him too often but I've read the reports and I've spoken
31:09to Hibs fans as well and watched him the odd time but he's doing so well and Scotland's such a good
31:14breeding ground for players, like, in terms of a league that's going to get your championship
31:19ready, like the Scottish Premier League is probably right up there, just the intensity,
31:22the pace, there's a lot of players go up to Scotland from English football and they're just,
31:26like, they can't cope with the speed of it and the, sort of, the passion, the way it goes, sort
31:33of, end-to-end, it's a bit of a throwback league in a sense and I mean that in the best possible
31:37possible way, it's, like, it's intense and it's fun to watch and I think the championship's got
31:43a bit of that about it as well and if he can do it up there then I think there's every chance that
31:46he can have a good career down here. I think, with trying to, so he really wants to play,
31:51doesn't he, and I think that's probably the reason why he's been to Hibs but, yeah, certainly
31:55worth a look and it's, you know, a decent player, I think, when he's played for Sunderland, I think
32:01he came on, did he come on at home to Birmingham City as a substitute or did he start that game,
32:07I can't remember, no, that's, I know what I'm thinking of, he started at home against Birmingham
32:11City, didn't he, and he came on as a sub, I think, on Boxing Day against Hull City and halved
32:16somebody under Michael Beale, which, like, broke the game up and Sunderland ended up winning it
32:21because Jack Clark had already scored but there's definitely, like, a raw player there, I think,
32:26and he's well worth his Australia call-up as well. Definitely, definitely, he's going from
32:32strength to strength at Easter Road. Should we finish up with some under-21s, Chad? I know you
32:37were at Ebbleton earlier in the week, they beat Leeds United 3-0, very comprehensive display,
32:43a couple of goals for Finn Garagousian, who appears to have taken a few under-21s out of
32:47ducked water, a strike for Harrison Jones as well, who's the captain of the team, he's been involved
32:51with the first team quite a bit already this season. I just sort of wanted to get your opinion on
32:57the squad writ large and which players in Graeme Murthy's team at the moment are really catching
33:02your eye, which ones you think are capable of perhaps being the next on this conveyor belt of
33:06talent that maybe takes the step up into Regis Le Brisse's thinking? Yeah, I think there's a
33:12couple that have really caught my eye this season, obviously people will be aware of Trey Ugg and
33:17Sui, he's just picked up an injury at the moment, but he came on in the FA Cup game at the Stadium
33:22of Light against Stoke, he's done really well for the under-21s, he can play off the right
33:26through the middle, he's just got sort of everything you'd want from a young striker
33:31and he's got a, you know, a way to develop and a way to grow. He's been fantastic to be honest,
33:36but then Finn Garagousian behind him as well, who's 17, he was playing like under-16s football
33:41last season and he's been playing for the under-18s this season as well as the 21s and he's
33:46just looked like amazing, like sometimes I think you see youth football and it's very, it can be,
33:53not all of the time, it can be very passive and very technical and I'm not saying Garagousian
33:59isn't technical because he is, but he just goes after games, like his desire and his work rate
34:04and his pace for a big lad as well, I think he's like six foot two already, really, really impressed
34:09by him. I'm not saying you're going to see him like in the first team next week or anything,
34:12but I think he's definitely one to keep an eye on. Southern fans will be fairly familiar with
34:18Harrison Jones now, I think he's played three times for the first team in the Cups and he made
34:24his league debut off the bench against Sheffield Wednesday, excuse me, but he's a really good
34:31technical player, can play in a multitude of positions, he can play as an eight, he could
34:35probably play as a six as well, can definitely play as a ten and against Leeds United he actually
34:40played as a false nine, he got an assist at a goal and he just makes things happen. He's a
34:44boyhood Sunderland fan as well which always helps, it's his dream to play for Sunderland and he's
34:49doing that alongside his brother Jadon Jones as well, in the middle, who's not a bad player at
34:54all actually. Another one that's really impressed us in recent weeks actually and I've watched him
34:58for a long time but I'm really starting to appreciate him now is Jenson Jones, so there's
35:03Harrison Jones, Jadon Jones who are brothers and then there's Jenson Jones and that's always very
35:07difficult, especially when the three of them were named on the same team sheet against Leeds but
35:12Jenson Jones can play left back, right back, he's played centre midfield and then against Leeds he
35:19also went and left wing and got an assist as well, so he's just so ridiculously technical
35:25that he can play in all these different positions which is obviously really, really handy to have.
35:29He's really, really come on in recent weeks I would say, again probably has a little bit of
35:34grown to do, physicality of his game probably needs to be improved on but he's a top prospect
35:39and Oli Bainbridge as well who got a little bit of first team experience with Kilmarnock
35:46earlier on in the season, played at Celtic Park, I think he played six or seven times up there before
35:51coming back in January, he can play left back, right back, centre back, he was a big player when the
35:57under-21s got the Premier League playoff final against Tottenham and they ended up losing but
36:05he's a really, really good handy player, a little bit like Serkin I think in a little way,
36:10they both wear Alice bands at times so that's probably why but honestly it's so fun to watch
36:15the under-21s because they are just full of talent, Graham Murtie does a great job, Luke Bell actually
36:20the centre back, he's really come on, he's a good player and then there's others as well like Zach
36:24Johnson's out on loan at Notts County as well, I really, really like him, Tom Lavery's a good
36:29player, Ben Crompton's out on loan so there's so much talent there but I think for me
36:34the standout in recent weeks has been Finn Garagousian because he's just been
36:42this phenomenon, in terms of just contributing and imprinting his will on a game,
36:51he's doing it way beyond his years and he's got time to grow and time to learn and
36:58very, very impressive and not really doing anything too flashy either, just doing the
37:03basics really well, just getting the ball, running at players, being in the right place, being on the
37:07end of it and can play in a couple of positions across the forward line so yeah,
37:14it's nice to watch these youngsters come through, it really is.
37:17Absolutely, absolutely, I think the Garagousian and to be fair I think you could say
37:24pretty much the same thing about Ogunsui, you're always hesitant to hype up these young players
37:32too much at such a sort of formative time in their career because you don't apply that pressure and
37:37obviously I do think there is an awful lot of merit to allowing them to develop
37:42sort of away from the limelight and almost away from fan attention to a certain extent so that
37:46they can reach their full potential without having to deal with the surrounding limelight
37:55really but I do think that where Sunderland differ from most clubs and why it's perhaps
38:01that little bit more exciting is because there is such a reliance on youth and we're talking about
38:09Garagousian, he's 17 now, he's only a couple of years younger than Eliza Maienda.
38:17And he's the same age as Chris Rigg, that's the mental thing.
38:20Exactly, we've already seen it with, in very recent times, Chris Rigg, Tommy Watson,
38:26these young academy lads who have made such an impact at youth level that they've almost
38:31forced their way into being in a position where they have to be under consideration for the first
38:37team because you can't ignore them any longer and that's why, you know, with the Garagousian,
38:43you kind of want to take your foot off the gas a little bit and you want to be a little bit
38:47realistic about it but at the same time it's hard to ignore what you're seeing on a weekly basis and
38:52if he's going to keep on influencing matches in the way that he is, similar thing with Ongansui,
38:58if he's going to keep on scoring goals in the manner that he has this season, it is going to
39:02get to a point where, you know, it might not be this year, it might not be next year but we are
39:10going to get to a point presumably sooner rather than later where they are knocking on the door of
39:15that first team squad and like I say, that's probably where something differs a little bit
39:19from a lot of the clubs around them but it does make for a really exciting prospect, I think.
39:27Yeah and I didn't even mention Matty Young as well, who's probably one of the best young goalkeepers
39:31in the country out on loan at Salford, I think he's probably seen as like the natural long-term
39:36successor to Anthony Patterson one day, I'm not trying to sell Anthony Patterson off early or
39:40anything like that but yeah, the depth of talent at Sunderland is ridiculous and it's really nice
39:46to see that pathway utilised, as you mentioned, I think the ownership have done an absolutely
39:50tremendous job with the academy, it's very vibrant, credit to Graeme Murty as well who just drives
39:56standards in that group, you've got Finn Lynch as well running the under-18s alongside his partner
40:03in coaching crime, whose name I've forgotten, Jordan Moore, that's it,
40:07the academy manager Robin Nicholls, it's just, it's such a vibrant space I think for those
40:12youngsters and you know, Sunderland do still lose some of their young talent, it does happen,
40:17Mason Koch, Toby Bell, all of you know, we won't see success across the board all of the time but
40:24contrast it to the Madrox era where Sunderland were just losing all of their players pretty much,
40:29pretty much everyone went bar and done, essentially of that really talented youth
40:34group with Sam Greenwood, Lucas Stephenson, Joel Hugel, all of those players but now Sunderland
40:40have a real chance of holding on to them and progressing them into the first team and for me
40:44that's like, I've got to be realistic about things, I think hopefully in my lifetime Sunderland will
40:51have some form of success at the highest level, like I really hope they do and obviously I really
40:56hope they win promotion for the championship but for me I get my sort of enjoyment from watching
41:01the young lads come through and you know, coming into the first team and playing for Sunderland's
41:06first team, especially when they're boyhood fans, that's the type of story that I really like,
41:11in the absence of something like massive, which probably isn't on the cards yet,
41:16hopefully it will be in my lifetime one day but yeah. Absolutely, absolutely, it means the dream
41:22isn't it, grow up a Sunderland fan, play for Sunderland. That's all we've got time for on this
41:27week's show, join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and
41:31developments. In the meantime, for all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland deco, give us a
41:35follow on social media as well. Thanks to James, thanks to you for listening, we'll see you next week.