Victoria Derbyshire interviews Torsten Bell MP, Pensions Minister, about the Government's benefits crackdown aimed at saving £5bn a year by 2030.
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FunTranscript
00:00Could you live on 70 quid a week?
00:01Absolutely not.
00:02So why do you expect young people to?
00:04The pensions minister has admitted to Newsnight
00:07that some people will be worse off after the government
00:10announced how it's going to get more benefit recipients
00:12into work.
00:13There'll be lower universal credit for new claimants,
00:15stricter tests for personal independence payments,
00:18reduced incapacity benefits for under 22-year-olds.
00:22And the government says that will save five billion pounds.
00:25Charities for disabled people say
00:26the impact could be devastating.
00:28I spoke to the Department for Work and Pensions
00:31minister, Torsten Bell, and asked him first
00:32who the losers were from today's announcement.
00:35Well, there will be some people that lose out
00:37from today's announcement.
00:38And who are they?
00:39Well, I'll come on to that.
00:40We've got a system where our disability benefit,
00:43personal independence payment, is seeing 1,000 people
00:45a day coming on to it.
00:47And that's far higher than was ever intended.
00:48So we are having to reduce the eligibility
00:50for personal independence payments.
00:53And those people will be worse off.
00:55But what we're making sure we do
00:57is to protect those people,
00:58make sure they get more support,
01:00both if they're people that are already
01:01receiving personal independence payment,
01:03but also for those that aren't receiving it in the future.
01:06Because we need to make sure that people have the support,
01:08not necessarily just to work,
01:09but for daily activities, for volunteering.
01:12And at the moment, they get far too little of that.
01:15So the current system is writing far too many people off,
01:17and we need to put that right.
01:18Are you okay with making people worse off?
01:21Well, I'm okay with saying this system has to change.
01:23Our manifesto said our manifesto...
01:25Are you okay with making people worse off?
01:27Well, what I need is to deliver a sustainable benefit system.
01:31Again, that wasn't the question.
01:32Well, it is, because 1,000 people a day...
01:34No, no, no, that wasn't my question.
01:36Are you okay with making people worse off?
01:38Well, I'm okay with building a sustainable system,
01:40because if it's not there for people in the long run...
01:42And if it means people are worse off, then so be it.
01:44No, in the long run, I think this is what will make people better off.
01:46More people will be working and will be able to sustain...
01:48You don't know that.
01:50I'm really confident. The evidence shows that.
01:51We published assessments in the recent past
01:53showing a 10 percentage point rise in the employment rate
01:56for people that are provided with active support.
01:58And at the moment, we are writing off millions of people
02:00and saying, no support, no conversation, no help to work.
02:03And that is not a way to run a country.
02:04Shall I give you the verdict of the think tank
02:07that you recently led, the Resolution Foundation?
02:09The Health and Disability Green Paper will boost universal credit
02:13for up to 4 million families
02:14without any health conditions or disability
02:17by about £3 a week.
02:19That's 43p a day.
02:22But these tiny gains are overshadowed
02:24by reforms that risk causing major income losses
02:28for those who are too ill to work
02:30or those who no longer qualify for disability benefits.
02:34The number of people claiming PIP
02:35will still be rising after these changes.
02:37So will the total spending on personal independence payments.
02:40It is true that we're tightening the eligibility.
02:42So the rate of growth in the number of people claiming PIP will slow.
02:46That's absolutely true.
02:47And I've been completely straight with you about that.
02:49So that means that some people who might have qualified won't.
02:52But that won't happen overnight.
02:53For those that are already claiming it,
02:54they won't be reassessed until the point
02:56at which they were meant to be reassessed anyway.
02:57And we're consulting on what extra support they need to be given.
03:00But people who are defending the status quo are defending a system
03:04that is writing off millions as too sick to work
03:07when many of them want to work.
03:08You haven't mentioned young people.
03:09Young people under the age of 22 who fall ill in the future
03:12will lose support from a huge scaling back of incapacity benefits,
03:17so says the Resolution Foundation,
03:20leaving them with potentially around £70 a week to live on.
03:25What do you think they're going to do?
03:26We've got a benefit system that says,
03:28if you can't come in and prove you're too sick to work,
03:30then you will receive an absolute minimum level of support.
03:34So it's a very strong incentive to prove you are too sick to work
03:37and then write you off once you've done that.
03:38And the idea that we're doing that to 20 and 21 year olds
03:41when we know the long lasting damage from being out of work
03:43in the early years of your career is incredibly large.
03:47And we know that working makes a big difference
03:49actually to your physical as well as your mental health.
03:51You've covered this repeatedly on your show
03:53in terms of what that is doing,
03:55both in terms of their mental health,
03:56but actually in terms of their long life chances.
03:59The hope is they'll get a job.
04:01Absolutely. I'm not just saying that.
04:03No, it's important to say, why can we be optimistic about that?
04:06Because programmes we can see working, 10 percentage points
04:09higher employment rates for where we've put interventions in place.
04:13No other country in the G7 has seen their employment rate
04:16come down since the pandemic.
04:18It's our failure that we must put it right.
04:20It is not inevitable that we see these levels of inactivity.
04:23Fair enough.
04:24But in the meantime, some young people are going to be living
04:27on around £70 a week.
04:29No, people with significant disabilities will be protected.
04:33Not only will they be protected within the universal credit system,
04:36which is the one you're mentioning,
04:37but they'll also be able to apply for personal independence payments.
04:40So people with significant disabilities, if they are young,
04:45if they're currently receiving UC Health, they will continue to receive it.
04:48And if they have significant disabilities,
04:49they will still be able to apply for personal independence payment.
04:52But we are not going to write off 21-year-olds.
04:54And for those who can't, they'll be living on about £70.
04:56We are not going to write off 21-year-olds as unable to work.
04:58For those who can't, they'll be living on about £70 a week.
05:01Could you live on £70 a week?
05:02Absolutely not.
05:03So why do you expect young people to?
05:05We won't. We provide housing benefit as well
05:07and we'll provide personal independence payments.
05:08This is cash in their pocket, this £70 cash a week.
05:10So are the things I just mentioned to you.
05:11So are the things I just mentioned to you.
05:12That's how the benefit system works.
05:14If people need help with their rent, they receive that as well.
05:16If they need support with a disability,
05:18personal independence payments is there for that as well.
05:19So to buy food, to pay bills, £70 a week.
05:22You've just told me you couldn't live on that.
05:24Well, no, I have a mortgage to pay because of the current situation.
05:27But what I'm saying to you, and the benefit system exists
05:29to provide housing benefit support for young people as well.
05:32But what I'm saying to you is the current system
05:35is a disaster for those young people.
05:36And, you know, it's all well and good to say
05:37you don't like every aspect of these changes.
05:39But what you are defending is a Tory system.
05:41I'm not defending anything.
05:43I'm asking you questions about your plans.
05:44Absolutely, and that's your job.
05:45I sat in the chamber today and heard people say,
05:47I'm worried about this aspect of the change,
05:48but there's not enough focus on the disaster
05:51that is happening in our country today.
05:53We are seeing much faster growth in claims for disability benefits
05:57than we are seeing actual levels of disability,
05:59particularly for young people.
06:00Liz Kendall said in the Commons today,
06:02there will always be people who can never work
06:04because of the severity of their disability or illness.
06:07Under this government, the social security system
06:09will always be there for people in genuine need.
06:12There are people watching you now who are frightened
06:15and who want to know if, for example, somebody with MS,
06:20are they someone in genuine need?
06:21I totally understand that some of the reporting
06:23over recent weeks will have made people worried.
06:27And I am sorry about that.
06:29It's a very significant issue.
06:30I spent last Friday talking to people in a support group
06:33for people with mental ill health.
06:35And yes, people are worried.
06:36But all I would say is we're partly worried
06:38because people know that we have a system that is a mess.
06:41Former Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said today
06:43in the Chamber, the reality is that trying to find
06:46up to £5 billion worth of cuts by changing the PIP rules
06:50will result in immense suffering.
06:52And we've seen it in the past, loss of life.
06:56He claims people could die, he says,
06:58because of the changes that you are making.
07:01Is he right?
07:02I've said this gently to John and to others,
07:05that they are defending a Tory benefit system
07:07that writes off millions as unable to work,
07:10that has failed and is driving up the number of people
07:13who are out of work and receiving benefits
07:14and not driving down disability poverty rates.
07:17And we're about changing the country.
07:18We stood on a manifesto to deliver change.
07:20You didn't say in your manifesto
07:21you'd be cutting disability and health-related benefits.
07:23We absolutely said that.
07:24We absolutely said in our manifesto
07:26that we needed to reform the Tory benefit system
07:27to lock people out of work.
07:28We were very clear about that.
07:29Finally, the OBR suggests that the total spending
07:32on health and disability benefits
07:34will rise from £65 billion last year
07:36to £100 billion in 2029-30.
07:40You're saving £5 billion a year.
07:43It's tiny.
07:45No, I've set out a really significant package of changes,
07:48and I've been honest that that has involved
07:49some tough choices.
07:51£5 billion?
07:52Yeah, but I want to make sure there's a system
07:54that's there for those in need.
07:56And what I'm saying is we're making these changes
07:57so that we can keep a system that does help those
08:00with the most significant needs.
08:01I'm not making any apologies for that.
08:03That's what a decent society looks like,
08:04and that's what I want.
08:05Torsten Bell, Pensions Minister,
08:07thank you very much for joining us.