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00:00:00The World's Yearling Sale.
00:00:15Make plans for the Keeneland September Yearling Sale September 13th through the 24th.
00:00:19Visit theworldyearlingsale.com to learn more.
00:00:23Good morning.
00:00:24It is 937 Tuesday, August 17th.
00:00:27This is the 100th episode of the TDN Writer's Room presented by Keeneland.
00:00:31My name is Joe Bianca.
00:00:32I'm the associate editor of the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:34And for anybody who happened to see me on the Capital OTB show on Sunday, it's true.
00:00:38I only brought one collared shirt for this trip.
00:00:41Hi, I'm Bill Finley, a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:00:44And rather than trying to be snarky or witty or something, I thought I'd try something
00:00:48different, John.
00:00:49I want, and I'm serious about this.
00:00:50I wanted to kind of be sentimental and poignant.
00:00:52We all remember the first time we ever went to a baseball game or something like that.
00:00:56The first time I ever, back in Saratoga, the first time I ever went there was 1972.
00:00:59I was a little, little boy and I was in a car accident and spent the entire summer in
00:01:04the hospital.
00:01:06And my parents brought me when I got out of the hospital to celebrate my getting out.
00:01:09And the first day I got here, who did, what did I see?
00:01:12But the 1972 Sanford Stakes, now come on, who won that race?
00:01:16Who won the Sanford Stakes?
00:01:171972.
00:01:18Because this is not that hard.
00:01:19Man of War.
00:01:20See, now you always got to go for the lowest common denominator.
00:01:24I'm trying to be sweet and sentimental here and you come up with a wise-ass answer like
00:01:27that.
00:01:28This is not, I know it's before your time, it's not that hard.
00:01:30Secretariat.
00:01:31Exactly.
00:01:33So my very first trip ever to Saratoga, the very first day, I saw a secretariat run.
00:01:37Wow.
00:01:38That's wonderful.
00:01:39That's wonderful.
00:01:40And all it took was a car crash for you to do that.
00:01:41Yeah, right.
00:01:42All right.
00:01:43Well, I'm going to bring us back to reality.
00:01:44Jonathan Green, general manager of DJ Stable.
00:01:46And I can't believe that we've got 100 shows and that this is the first time I'm going
00:01:50to do this.
00:01:51Break the fourth wall.
00:01:53The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by Keeneland, home of the World's Yearling
00:01:57Sale.
00:01:58Make plans to attend the Keeneland September Yearling Sale beginning Monday, September
00:02:0113th.
00:02:02The catalog is now available online with 4,034 offerings at catalog.keeneland.com or less
00:02:08than a month away from the Keeneland September Sale.
00:02:10I know John will be there.
00:02:11And all the big wigs, not just John.
00:02:14The biggest of the wigs will be at Keeneland September.
00:02:16We're looking forward to it.
00:02:17All right.
00:02:18So it was a fun weekend of racing here at Saratoga, just on a personal level.
00:02:21It was incredibly gratifying and rewarding to be back at Saratoga after missing it last
00:02:27year.
00:02:28It just really felt like everything was back to normal and everything downtown was lively
00:02:32and hopping.
00:02:33And it was just great to watch the horses walk by and see everybody having a good time.
00:02:37See the bros playing beer pong and see the blue hares drinking whatever the old ladies
00:02:42drink.
00:02:43But no, it was great.
00:02:44It was great to be back.
00:02:45I love it.
00:02:46Just such a buzz here at Saratoga.
00:02:47And it's so much fun.
00:02:48The second you walk in, it's like you never left.
00:02:51But on the racetrack, I think obviously the headliner was Got Stormy coming back to win
00:02:55her second four star Dave stakes.
00:02:58And that was, you know, that's a that's a super accomplishment.
00:03:00I think there are only three horses that have ever won that race twice.
00:03:02She's the first filly to do it.
00:03:04She got a 104 a buyer.
00:03:06Congrats to a friend of the show, Mark Cassie, who was on last week, had him on a week too
00:03:09early, as John said.
00:03:11But she's one of those interesting horses where, you know, every year I think, well,
00:03:15Got Stormy's lost a step.
00:03:17Got Stormy's lost a step.
00:03:19And then every year on the four star Dave, she comes back and proves me wrong.
00:03:21And she did it last year.
00:03:22Even when she ran second, she was a very good second.
00:03:24And then obviously she won it two years ago.
00:03:26She's a very, very admirable mare.
00:03:28And it was good that the new owners or at least the new part owners, Spendthrift, brought
00:03:32her back to the races this year.
00:03:34Because even though I could never have had her at 12 to one, she killed all of my bets.
00:03:38It was one of those things where as a fan, you were happy to see it because you like
00:03:42to see horses stepping out of the box, fillies taking on the boys and horses that are getting
00:03:46up there in age, six, seven years old, still be able to compete at that top level.
00:03:50So it was very cool and a very good story on a beautiful Saturday of racing at Saratoga.
00:03:55And the other big horse was High Oak in the Saratoga special, you know, Gormley's son
00:04:01for Ian Seidler and the crew and Bill Mott.
00:04:05Very, very impressive.
00:04:06We were saying earlier in the year that earlier, maybe a month or so ago, that there hadn't
00:04:10really been these breakout two-year-old male performances yet.
00:04:13We've got two, I think.
00:04:14We've got Witt and now High Oak in the Saratoga special and Speaker's Corner I want to talk
00:04:18about as well because he was one of those horses, his reputation kind of preceded him
00:04:23last year.
00:04:24He was bet down to three to five in his debut, had a pretty nice win in his second out beating
00:04:29Caddo River and a couple other nice horses.
00:04:31Hadn't been seen since then.
00:04:32Came back at a seven furlong race.
00:04:35He wanted to go, Mott wanted to go two turns with him.
00:04:37Race didn't fill, came back at seven furlongs and just blew apart a very, very nice one
00:04:41other than Allowance Field.
00:04:42A really typical, strong one other than Allowance Field at Saratoga.
00:04:46So it'll be interesting to see where he goes next.
00:04:48My guess is the Pennsylvania Derby, probably too quick of a turnaround to go to the Travers.
00:04:52But John, let's hear some thoughts from you about the weekend at Saratoga.
00:04:54I think he did a great job, you know, just itemizing all the reasons why Gott Stormy
00:04:59was such an impressive winner.
00:05:00And you talk about a horse for course, you know, she's run four times here at Saratoga,
00:05:04all grade one races and has three wins in the second place.
00:05:07I mean, it's just unbelievable the way that this mare continues to run and run and run.
00:05:12And what we forget is she was 12 to 1 for a reason.
00:05:14Number one, it was a really deep field.
00:05:16And number two, she had run fifth three out of her last four starts.
00:05:20So it wasn't like she was at the top of her game anymore, at least according to, you know,
00:05:24to her recent history.
00:05:27You had Raging Bull, who was the favorite.
00:05:29Maybe he was overbent.
00:05:30Obviously, now you can look back and say he shouldn't have, you know, he's a false favorite.
00:05:33You had three fillies in a grade one, which is again, really unusual to run against the
00:05:37boys and, you know, including Blowout and Daddy's a Legend.
00:05:42But again, I think it comes down to Gott Stormy and just what a great training job Mark Cassie
00:05:47did for this mare.
00:05:49You know, she's kind of at that stage of her life where they're going to really be careful
00:05:52with the races they put her in.
00:05:54They're going to point her obviously for the, you know, for the Breeders' Cup.
00:05:57Now she has a win in your end.
00:05:58She's automatically in the mile race if she wants to go there.
00:06:01But at this stage of her game, you know, I personally think that she's probably really
00:06:05like a seven furlong horse more so than a miler or a turf sprinter.
00:06:09So she's kind of in that in-between stage.
00:06:12But hat off to her because Mark Cassie and his crew did a phenomenal job getting her
00:06:15ready for this particular race.
00:06:17Again, she loves the course and she won and she won emphatically.
00:06:20It wasn't like she just caught him at the end and won by a nose.
00:06:24I mean, she dominated that race and Tyler Gafleon just kept her clear of the speed,
00:06:30and down the speed at the top of the stretch and the rest is history.
00:06:33So it was great to see.
00:06:34Yeah, I mean, she blew him away too.
00:06:35And it's, you know, you said this to me after the race and we were texting about it, whether
00:06:39or not he's going to go to the mile or the sprint with her.
00:06:42I think the Breeders' Cup being at Del Mar and being five furlongs, I think that's too
00:06:47sharp for her.
00:06:48So I think she'll definitely end up in the mile and we'll see.
00:06:50We'll see if she's able to carry this race forward.
00:06:51I think that's been the issue with her the last couple of years.
00:06:55She runs these great races at Saratoga and then, you know, fades a little bit at least
00:06:58in the fall.
00:07:00But like I said, it was great.
00:07:01It was great to see her.
00:07:02She's a very popular mare.
00:07:03And it was it was a popular victory, I think, on Saturday in front of a great crowd here
00:07:07at Saratoga.
00:07:08It was it was perfect weather.
00:07:10Just missed the heat wave.
00:07:11Came up Saturday morning.
00:07:12So sorry for everybody who had to deal with that last week.
00:07:14But it was it was a lot of fun and it's just great to be back here.
00:07:16We're going to have a couple of people sitting in the guest chair who can really speak to
00:07:20how special it is to have fans back at Saratoga and have a sense of normalcy back here.
00:07:25But, you know, shifting a little bit, we also had a big day at Arlington and unfortunately,
00:07:30kind of the last big day at Arlington.
00:07:33And we have some opinions about the way people were treated on the way out the door at Arlington.
00:07:39But first, let's break down the actual results of the day.
00:07:43You had the huge upset in the Arlington Million.
00:07:46It's hard for me to call it the Mr. D's Day because I still call it the million.
00:07:49The Arlington 600,000 if you want.
00:07:52Bill chooses to be negative about the purse.
00:07:55I've learned from the best, John Green.
00:07:57I'm Mr. Sunshine in the middle all of a sudden.
00:07:59But no, like that was that was that that was a cool result.
00:08:03Two Emmys, again, could have never had that horse in a million years.
00:08:06I wouldn't bet that horse with Monopoly money, as my friends like to say.
00:08:09Thirty six to one.
00:08:10But again, aggressive riding is is rewarded.
00:08:13James Graham took that horse to the front in the race with no speed and held off domestic
00:08:17spending, I think was kind of up against it with that pace and I think didn't disgrace
00:08:21himself running second.
00:08:22But it was it was local connections.
00:08:24Hugh Robertson, he's I think the horse was a forty five hundred dollar purchase, which
00:08:28is absolutely incredible.
00:08:30And the other horse I wanted to mention from there was was Santa Barbara in the Beverly
00:08:34D. She was incredibly impressive to the point where I almost forgot that she was a three
00:08:40year old going against elders.
00:08:42You know, I forgot that she won the Belmont Oaks just a month or two ago because she
00:08:46dominated those older fillies and mares and she was loaded on the turn.
00:08:50If you want to if you want to look at if you want an example of a horse who was just
00:08:54dying to be let loose, watch Santa Barbara on the far turn of the Beverly D.
00:08:58And once she got in the clear at the top of the stretch, it was over for the rest of that
00:09:02field. Me and Mary ran OK to be second after breaking through the gate to start.
00:09:06But those were two really impressive performances.
00:09:08Santa Barbara will be interesting to see what she does going forward.
00:09:10John, you mentioned the other day that they might keep some horses in America.
00:09:14They run a Kentucky Downs.
00:09:16Well, again, it's a situation where the O'Briens are coming in and stealing everybody's
00:09:20lunch. You know, and this is Santa Barbara, just the most recent example of that.
00:09:25And it's interesting because, you know, the O'Briens, everyone kind of cobbles them
00:09:28together. But it's Aiden, the father who, you know, is a legend unto itself.
00:09:33And then Joseph and Danica, his sons, are winning races all over the place.
00:09:36And last week, you know, Joseph, you know, won the big turf race here, the million dollar
00:09:40turf race here. So it's a matter of, you know, just them
00:09:45coming and bringing their top shelf horses.
00:09:47I think Bill said that a couple of weeks ago about how in the past, you know, the
00:09:51O'Briens and other Euros were coming over with kind of the B team and faring OK.
00:09:57But now the gloves are off. They're bringing their top shelf, you know, horses.
00:10:00And I think it's primarily to run in the turf races now in the late summer, early fall
00:10:05and then roll into some of the bigger meets like the Kentucky Downs, Keeneland and then
00:10:10stay here for the Breeders' Cup. So if you have a turf horse and you're base turned
00:10:13in America, watch out because there are some big boys coming.
00:10:16There are big girls, too, in Santa Barbara.
00:10:18Bill, what did you think about the Arlington races?
00:10:19Yeah, I mean, a couple of other notes.
00:10:20I mean, first of all, it was, you know, obviously observation about the Mr.
00:10:24D stakes. And you just see this time and time again and you scratch your head.
00:10:28I mean, look, two Emmys, good for him.
00:10:29He wins the race. But when you get to the front in 26, 52 and 2 and 116 and 3, I mean,
00:10:35that certainly makes your job a lot easier.
00:10:40And then, you know, again, couldn't agree more about Santa Barbara.
00:10:43And it looks like, you know, the Aiden O'Brien rut that he was in.
00:10:47And I forget what the statistic was, but it was like a year and a half or something that
00:10:51he didn't win a single race in North America.
00:10:53That's over. I mean, he's coming in now.
00:10:56And as John said, just, you know, stealing everybody's lunch money type of thing.
00:11:00Then and I know we want to talk about the, you know, the ugly side of the last big day
00:11:05of racing in Arlington Park, which we'll get to that.
00:11:08But the other story, I think, was Chad Brown, too.
00:11:10And, you know, his dominance of these races was almost unprecedented.
00:11:14He'd won the Beverly D five straight times, six overall.
00:11:18And I remember no race in 2020 because of covid.
00:11:20And he had won the last four Arlington Millions.
00:11:23Now, only Chad Brown can win a grade three on the card and have a bad day.
00:11:27He won the grade three, the pucker up stakes with a more modest horse, but failed to win
00:11:32in those other races. So, you know, when we think Chad Brown is invincible, we see that
00:11:36even he has an occasional bad day.
00:11:38Yeah, I mean, and I think that's good for the game to see to see other trainers coming
00:11:42in and winning these these big turf races, because, you know, nothing against Chad.
00:11:46But but I don't think one trainer dominating any division is great for the sport.
00:11:50I think it's better to have a little parody, just like it is any sport.
00:11:53It's better to have parody instead of one or two teams dominating for years and years.
00:11:57But yeah, I mean, the other part, the like what Bill brought up, the kind of the
00:12:02ugliness of the last day at Arlington Park.
00:12:04And we talked about this a little bit.
00:12:06And I took I took a trip to Arlington earlier this year.
00:12:10And it was such a beautiful racetrack.
00:12:11And there's just absolutely no good reason for it to be closing down.
00:12:14But beyond that, I you know, I actually didn't see this on Saturday because I was out at
00:12:18the track. But apparently people they were rushing people out of the building.
00:12:22And yeah, Joe, here's the story on this.
00:12:24And, you know, as media members here, we're not asking people to feel sorry for us.
00:12:28But, you know, media members should be allowed to do their job.
00:12:30And in you know, I've covered not just horse racing.
00:12:32I've covered every sport there is.
00:12:34And the what they do is the press box doesn't have an opening time and a closing time.
00:12:40If the game is over at 11 o'clock and it takes you five hours to write your story, then
00:12:44the press box closes when you're done and when you leave.
00:12:47So Arlington Park and their guy that's their president, general manager, a guy named Tony
00:12:51Petrillo, you know, to just add insult to injury, what a petulant, just mean spirited
00:12:59move that he pulled. There was apparently nine people that are covering the Arlington
00:13:04Million, which in and of itself is a story, because 20 years ago there would have been
00:13:0750 covering the race.
00:13:09And within 90 minutes after the race, he threw them out of the track, the people in the
00:13:15press box. He even told a photographer by the name of Jamie Newell that she was banned
00:13:19for life. Horse racing.
00:13:21We don't ban Jason Service and Jorge Navarro from the racetrack, but we ban a
00:13:25photographer from life.
00:13:26Arlington Park. So, you know, everybody obviously is very sad about Arlington's demise.
00:13:32And, you know, we can point fingers at Churchill Downs is where the finger obviously
00:13:35deserves to be pointed. But, you know, what on earth would they do something like this
00:13:40for? And again, it just strikes I don't know the guy, but it just strikes me as, you
00:13:43know, just a nasty thing to do.
00:13:45And just to just dig the knife in just a little bit more.
00:13:49Hey, we're closing Arlington and get the hell out.
00:13:51Yeah, it's so weird, too, because, you know, we thought that Churchill and the people in
00:13:56charge of Arlington were going to try to finesse this closing a little bit to keep some
00:13:59goodwill in the industry. And that's the opposite of that.
00:14:02They couldn't care less. Yeah.
00:14:03Kick them on the way out the door.
00:14:05I do want to mention that Alan Carraso, our editor, our senior editor at TDN, was at
00:14:11Arlington over the weekend, had some great coverage.
00:14:13He had a great story as well on Sunday about he because he's a Chicago guy.
00:14:17So it was definitely very bittersweet for him.
00:14:20And it was great.
00:14:21He was talking about how, you know, how he grew up going to Arlington Park and all the
00:14:25memories and how what a what a sad goodbye it was.
00:14:28So his coverage was great.
00:14:29But yeah, it just it just seems so on the closing of Arlington in general seems so
00:14:33unnecessary. But also to treat people like that on the way out the door is just
00:14:37incredibly unnecessary.
00:14:38And, you know, I think I think that that track deserve better.
00:14:40I think the people were covering the race deserve better.
00:14:43And I think Illinois racing overall deserves a lot better than the way it's been
00:14:47treated the last couple of years.
00:14:48But have you guys ever been to a facility when they're closing it down?
00:14:52Have you ever been to a racetrack where they're closing it down?
00:14:54It's less less than the last day of it.
00:14:55Suffolk Downs for what it's worth.
00:14:56OK, so so I was at the last day of Atlantic City's racing and literally we were
00:15:02we're running a horse in a race and people were walking in with tool belts and vans
00:15:07outside and were taking pieces of the grandstand, taking pieces of the paddock,
00:15:13taking the trophies off the walls with electric screwdrivers.
00:15:16I mean, it was it was so not that I'm not that I'm saying that that's what this
00:15:19guy had in mind when he was kicking out the press, but I'm sure he was like, that's
00:15:23it. You can't you know, you can't you don't have to go home, but you can't stay
00:15:26here. I'm turning off the lights.
00:15:27That's the thing, it wasn't even closing day, that's right.
00:15:29It wasn't the closing day of the track.
00:15:31Yeah. So Alan Carasso did not show up with the tool belt.
00:15:34Right, right, right, right.
00:15:34Yeah, exactly. Well, that reminds me, I was I was at the last game at the old
00:15:38Meadowlands and there were fans ripping up the seats on the way out the door.
00:15:42But yeah, I mean, I don't know what that could have been about other than they
00:15:46were pissed off that everybody was being so waxing, so nostalgic about Arlington
00:15:50and Arlington closing that that's the only that's the only thing I could I could
00:15:53think of that that's some kind of retributive thing for people, you know, lamenting
00:15:58the fact that Arlington's closing.
00:15:59Right, right. I can understand they threw us out of the press box, but we got like a
00:16:03half hour before they throw us out of here.
00:16:05Exactly. That's true.
00:16:07Yeah. So let's wrap up this thing.
00:16:08But yeah, I mean, very sad day.
00:16:10But but I thought some some very some satisfying results in terms of local
00:16:15connections, winning in a lot of different trainers, a lot of different horses coming
00:16:18from different directions that I thought was a great, great day of racing.
00:16:21It's unfortunate that there won't be another Arlington Million Day.
00:16:25The TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Spendthrift.
00:16:27Big week for Spendthrift.
00:16:28High Oak, who we talked about before, very, very impressive winning the Saratoga
00:16:32Special. Son of Spendthrift's first crop sire, Gormley, for first juveniles on the
00:16:37track this year. He's already got six winners and now I think really has that breakout
00:16:41performer that we that we'd love to see this early in the year.
00:16:44He's undefeated. Two starts for Belmont.
00:16:46And Spendthrift also got to win the next race at Saratoga with God Stormy, which we also
00:16:51mentioned before. And it was great for Spendthrift to come back with her and race her
00:16:55because, like I said, she's a very popular mare.
00:16:57And also at the Fasig sale earlier this week, at the New York bread sale yesterday and
00:17:01Sunday, Cloud Computing.
00:17:03There was a Cloud Computing horse that brought two hundred twenty five thousand dollars.
00:17:07Very, very nice for a first crop yearling sire sold to Eddie Woods and another another
00:17:11Spendthrift first crop yearling sire who we talked about a lot, had a lot of buzz.
00:17:14Bolt D'Oro kind of really lived up to the hype there.
00:17:17Two hundred thousand, one hundred seventy thousand and one hundred forty thousand
00:17:20yearlings at the New York bread sale.
00:17:22What was your impression? Yeah.
00:17:23And that's coming off the Fasig-Tipton July sale where Bolt D'Oro averaged one hundred
00:17:27thirty thousand dollars for, you know, for the three or four yearlings that sold there.
00:17:30So obviously they're putting their best foot forward.
00:17:32They have some really impressive Bolt D'Oros.
00:17:34The buzz was all about Bolt D'Oro as far as being a freshman sire and and just how good
00:17:39looking those athletes looked in the Cloud Computing that sold for two and a quarter.
00:17:42We actually looked at outstanding, just a really, really good looking yearling.
00:17:45Yeah, I thought that horse looked very good, too.
00:17:47And also Golden Sense don't want to slight him.
00:17:48He had he had a pair of fillies run one, two in the debutante stakes at Ellis Park over
00:17:53the weekend. So we'll be right back after this message from Spendthrift.
00:18:09And I'm going to be honest, I think you guys win.
00:18:39The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group, an accounting, tax consulting
00:19:01and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:19:04With over 500 clients in the horse business, they have proven strategies to save you taxes.
00:19:08Learn more about how they can help you at www.greenco.com.
00:19:12So we're super thrilled this week to bring in our Green Group guest of the week, the
00:19:15big cheese over here at Naira, the CEO of the New York Racing Association, David O'Rourke.
00:19:19Thanks for coming on, man. I really appreciate it.
00:19:21Thanks for having me. It's great.
00:19:22It's great to have you. And especially after yesterday at the Racing and Gaming Conference, I
00:19:25thought you had some really interesting comments.
00:19:28And you said about Haiza, we talk a lot about Haiza on the show and the likelihood of it
00:19:33being enacted on time.
00:19:34But you talked about the moral obligation to protect horses, which I think that we harp
00:19:39on a lot. Can you just expound on that?
00:19:41And, you know, after yesterday, what is your sense of how quickly we can get this thing
00:19:46enacted? I was a little surprised on the debate because I didn't focus really on on that
00:19:54aspect. And a lot of it's like the challenges that are coming, you know, after the round
00:19:57table, some of the things that Stuart Jani had mentioned that how many people would kind
00:20:03of attack the legislation.
00:20:05And it was a little eye opening to hear some of that debate yesterday.
00:20:08But, you know, fundamentally, it's just about protecting the horse and our ability to, you
00:20:15know, control medication or regulate it uniformly across jurisdictions.
00:20:20I think it's not lost on anyone that it's it's a challenge on the racetrack side because
00:20:26we are a national sport.
00:20:27People are racing in one jurisdiction.
00:20:29We have a show like right here on this set.
00:20:31I'm kind of glad to be on it. And he's never let me sit here.
00:20:34So, you know, we have a show.
00:20:35We'll be showing one race in one jurisdiction.
00:20:37And, you know, unfortunately, things happen.
00:20:40And then when it translates back to ours, it's hard to explain it because it's not, you
00:20:45know, everyone's used to leagues and it's uniform across the league.
00:20:49And we haven't had that.
00:20:50And I think Heise will kind of move us into that.
00:20:53It will. It'll move us into that direction and just give us a better ability to regulate
00:20:57the sport. Right.
00:20:59David, first of all, thanks for joining.
00:21:01And I want to continue.
00:21:02You had a lot of interesting things to say yesterday at the Saratoga Gaming Conference
00:21:06and your comments on Heise were eye opening.
00:21:08And, you know, I think you're preaching to the choir here among people that love the
00:21:12game and love the horse and everything.
00:21:14But I think you touched upon was sports betting and what it may mean for horse racing.
00:21:19And you talked about some things that I necessarily hadn't contemplated.
00:21:23But I think you used something.
00:21:25In fact, this is sports betting is a once in a lifetime opportunity for the sport, whereas
00:21:29there's some other people that are thinking it's this kind of competition that's going
00:21:32to prove to be a big behemoth that racing can't compete with.
00:21:38So could you just expound on that?
00:21:39And, you know, and again, and also get into, please, the whole idea of having fixed odds
00:21:44wagering. But why you see sports betting and, I guess, piggybacking off sports betting
00:21:49is ultimately a great opportunity for the sport.
00:21:51So. It's change, you know, it's going to change the marketplace, it's you look at it
00:21:58one way, it's going to expand the marketplace in terms of people participating in an
00:22:03activity that's very similar to everything that we've been doing for a long, long time.
00:22:08So there's there's concerns because it's different.
00:22:10But if you look at the market, it's been 10, 11 billion for the last decade, almost my
00:22:15entire time I've been here at Naira.
00:22:17And if we don't do anything different, what do we expect tomorrow?
00:22:21And with the influx of customers on these platforms and with, you know, with getting our
00:22:26sport out onto the mainstream sports television, I just I see it as a perfect
00:22:31opportunity. Are there risks?
00:22:33Yes. There's always risk when it gets down to making a change and then changing our
00:22:38product offering. Right.
00:22:39So do I know exactly how this play out?
00:22:41Obviously not. But I do see it as a huge opportunity.
00:22:46There's I mean, literally millions of customers there.
00:22:49We've got our product in front of them in terms of the shows.
00:22:53Now let's get our wagering product in front of them as well.
00:22:56Right. I mean, that's as simple as it sounds.
00:22:58That's really the play.
00:23:00OK. And the other thing I want to say on the same sort of follow up question, if you
00:23:02don't mind, you know, we all know that if we have just put fixed odds wagering on
00:23:08Naira bets, Twin Spires, ExpressBet, it's probably not going to do the sport a whole lot
00:23:12of good. It's going to be the same people just betting in a different way.
00:23:15How do we get sports betting onto FanDuel, DraftKings, MGM, etc., so that a guy can
00:23:21bet the Knicks at plus six and also bet Knicks go at, you know, minus 120 or whatever to
00:23:28win the Whitney? I wouldn't say that fixed odds wouldn't be on Naira bets, but that
00:23:32isn't the play. It is to get onto those platforms because those folks are doing a ton
00:23:37to market. They're collecting a group of customers that it's difficult for us to
00:23:41reach. Their marketing budgets are massive.
00:23:44They're in acquisition mode.
00:23:45If you just look at the valuations of some of these companies and their earnings, it
00:23:50shows you what stage of the development that they're in, and that's in growth.
00:23:54So, you know, we view it exactly that way.
00:23:56FanDuel, DraftKings, PointsBet, Bet365, these are all big players in other markets.
00:24:02They're going to be big players in our market.
00:24:04They offer racing in other markets.
00:24:06They should, in my opinion, offer racing in our market.
00:24:09And it's a massive distribution channel.
00:24:11It's about distribution. And it's really just coming out right in front of us.
00:24:16I mean, that's the way I see it.
00:24:19And Dave, now that you've been Naira president and CEO for a number of years, give us an
00:24:22idea of what's been your biggest challenge and also what's been your greatest
00:24:27accomplishment in that period of time.
00:24:29The biggest challenge, really going back to Heisen and safety of the horse, you know,
00:24:35when I came on in terms of CEO in 2019 and we were having the industry was having a
00:24:43flexion moment, really, in terms of that.
00:24:45We started with the Breeders' Cup and some other tracks, the Safety Coalition.
00:24:51So it was really just doubling down the focus of the safety of the athlete.
00:24:56And Heisen eventually got passed.
00:24:59So that's a challenge.
00:25:01I'd say that's the biggest challenge.
00:25:03But I think it was good for me because it refocused.
00:25:07I came from the finance side, a lot of content, wagering, what we were just talking
00:25:11about. And this really pushed me right into the other side of the sport.
00:25:15And it gave me an opportunity to learn a ton really fast and kind of set my compass in
00:25:23terms of what I needed to focus on.
00:25:26Accomplishments. I don't know, I'm still here.
00:25:30It's not bad for an IOC.
00:25:34You know, that's yet to play out.
00:25:36You know, I've had some theories on the sports betting.
00:25:38I hopefully am right.
00:25:39I could be wrong.
00:25:41We've been pushing the television product and working on that before I was CEO with
00:25:44Alavado. I think that's one of our biggest accomplishments in the near term.
00:25:49And it's how do we translate that into the bigger play, which would be to, you know, if
00:25:54you look from the top line, a few things like Saratoga, we're talking about handle
00:25:58records. But in your mind, you always set a goal.
00:26:00So the goal here would be a billion dollars.
00:26:03And well, it's gonna take a while, but I believe we can get there.
00:26:06If you're looking at the overall market at 10 billion or 11 billion, let's double it.
00:26:11So how do we actually get there?
00:26:12And the biggest way to get there is include, you know, increase the customer base is
00:26:15job one. So we see a play right now where there's an opportunity for that for the
00:26:19sport. Well, you mentioned Saratoga and Saratoga is obviously all good for Naira.
00:26:24It's a great experience for everybody.
00:26:25I think you guys do well up here, obviously, but it's a little bit more challenging, I
00:26:29think, to manage Belmont and Aqueduct downstate.
00:26:31And you mentioned at the conference yesterday the idea of maybe consolidating racing
00:26:35downstate. You know, I grew up going to Aqueduct, but I'm realistic about the idea
00:26:40that having two tracks eight miles apart doesn't necessarily make sense long term.
00:26:43And you talked about maybe winterizing Belmont Park.
00:26:46We saw Gulfstream recently say that they were going to put a third surface and we're
00:26:50going to put a synthetic track in.
00:26:51Is that something you guys are considering for Belmont in terms of whether or not you
00:26:55you're able to run year round?
00:26:57Synthetic. Yeah, it actually is in the conversation.
00:27:01You know, as I mentioned yesterday and on the jockey club was putting a tunnel in on
00:27:06the north side, a pedestrian tunnel on the south side, possibly a horse
00:27:11tunnel in the same configuration.
00:27:13But that's currently what's in process.
00:27:16This this winter, the focus will go right back to Belmont.
00:27:21You know, pre-COVID, that was a very big focus of ours working on that project.
00:27:25And we're picking that back up.
00:27:28Job one there is the surfaces.
00:27:30We know we want to build the tunnel in.
00:27:32The configurations will come within the next year and a synthetic is one of the options
00:27:38on the table for sure.
00:27:40It could even be a fourth track.
00:27:42It's so huge there that we have the space for it, which would mean it would be dirt,
00:27:47turf, turf, synthetic.
00:27:48But there's some other ones that I could lay out.
00:27:50But this would be a great one if you ever want to have Glenn Kozak on because you could
00:27:53really go through the different options on this one.
00:27:55Right. And I think that's good.
00:27:56I think that's the way forward for a lot of tracks.
00:27:59I want to stay on the same subject.
00:28:00I know you don't have all the answers at this point, but again, something you mentioned
00:28:03yesterday and you said something that is very obvious.
00:28:06Really, is there any point having two racetracks eight miles apart?
00:28:09So I know there's you talked about a couple of different possibilities, but 10 years from
00:28:13now, five years from now, et cetera.
00:28:15What do you what do you think is going to be the footprint or whatever of the two
00:28:21downstate racetracks? Will there be both?
00:28:24I assume if one is to go, it would be aqueduct if that were to happen.
00:28:27You know, what what might you need you to do to make Belmont a 10 month a year facility,
00:28:32et cetera, like that. So if you could just sort of speculate about the possibilities for
00:28:36the future of those two tracks.
00:28:38So five, 10 years out, you know, there'll be one facility.
00:28:40I think it'll be Belmont Park.
00:28:42That's really our hub.
00:28:43You know, we're training there right now.
00:28:45So a smaller footprint now that can mean two different things could mean literally a
00:28:50smaller building or it could mean the first and second floor of the clubhouse, which
00:28:55would be adequate for winter racing.
00:28:57So that's really what we're going to attack in terms of planning this winter.
00:29:02What are our options? There's really three.
00:29:04You could say you can knock it down and build a smaller building.
00:29:06You can redo it or you can take more of a overtime approach.
00:29:12And one of the things we did this year was create I think it's called a triple crown
00:29:17room on the second floor.
00:29:18And that was, in a sense, an experiment.
00:29:20What would it start to look like if we did take sections of this building and build out
00:29:25rooms that, you know, we need for big dates like Belmont Stakes Day or or potential
00:29:30Breeders' Cup? So those answers will start to flow out.
00:29:34But what you're looking at is a smaller conditioned footprint at Belmont for 10 months
00:29:38a year and the ability to expand out for something like the Belmont Stakes or Breeders'
00:29:43Cup. John and Dave, the only question I have for you is a couple of weeks ago, I
00:29:50thought it was a surprise. We kind of got a surprise announcement that Martin Panza was
00:29:53stepping down. What has he brought to the table?
00:29:56And also, you know, do you have any can you give us any idea of who you think would be
00:30:00filling his shoes?
00:30:02Martin's brought it. He's actually taught me a ton.
00:30:04So he's been here since I think 2013.
00:30:08He redefined our program in a lot of ways and created what we have today.
00:30:13So I couldn't be more thankful to have this time to work with Martin.
00:30:17It's a tough job running racing.
00:30:20It really is.
00:30:21There's a, you know, after a while, a change of scenery might be a good thing for
00:30:25someone because it can wear you out.
00:30:27It's day in and day out. We race so much here.
00:30:31So he's leaving our program in great shape.
00:30:34We are recruiting right now.
00:30:37I don't have a specific answer for you yet, but I probably would love to make an
00:30:41announcement in the near future.
00:30:43But we'll be in safe hands.
00:30:44Martin's here through the Breeders' Cup, and he's going to help with any kind of
00:30:49transition. So, you know, hats off to what Martin's done, though, because these
00:30:53numbers and any ability or trajectory to ever get to a billion dollars here, I know
00:30:57it's a big number. He set us on a course for that.
00:31:00Yeah. Just one more question for me.
00:31:02You mentioned also yesterday the the limiting of computer wagering.
00:31:05I think that's been a big bugaboo for a lot of a lot of, you know, meat and potatoes
00:31:09better as the late odds drops.
00:31:11You said that you guys are limiting computer wagers to two minutes to post.
00:31:15What are the logistics of that?
00:31:16And why do you think that that was so important for Naira to take the lead on that?
00:31:20We had an odds drop might have been the second week on a Saturday.
00:31:24And I get these calls, texts a lot.
00:31:28And, you know, as sports betting is rolling out and we have this conversation about
00:31:32fixed odds and, you know, why would anybody want a fixed odds bet?
00:31:35There's nothing wrong with parimutuel in a lot of ways.
00:31:37But what's the best product mix?
00:31:41Parimutuel exotics are great.
00:31:42You can't match them in terms of risk reward and potential value.
00:31:47Our whips, you know, the odds movement agitates people and a lot of it's late money
00:31:52coming into the pool. So, you know, we we've basically said two minutes out.
00:31:57That's it. And I don't even think they're wagering to those pools because their
00:32:01algorithms require, you know, they're looking for value in a sense.
00:32:06So I don't think they're even in the pool right now.
00:32:08They are in other pools. They add a lot of liquidity to pools.
00:32:10There's this is a balance.
00:32:12Right. This isn't this isn't, you know, the idea of like eradicating.
00:32:16So from our pools, but it's a balance.
00:32:18And one of the things you want to bring to the players, the ability for them to extract
00:32:22value. So so we, you know, we have certain pools that we limit to retail and we think
00:32:28it's a balanced mixed out there.
00:32:30And, you know, as the product progresses into what I was speaking with Bill about is
00:32:37we the exotics are where our probably our future is parimutuel.
00:32:40So let's see how well like let's see what how best we can deliver that product,
00:32:46because we're going to rely on that.
00:32:47People come in through whips, they'll come in through fixed odds or proposition bets.
00:32:52But if they're going to go down the value chain and become, you know, serious players,
00:32:57we got we have to get them into our trifectas, horizontals and that.
00:33:03I want to stay on that same subject, David, and I want to ask you this from a Naira
00:33:07perspective, but from the racing industry as a whole.
00:33:09And I should commend you guys, because as far as I know, you're the only track that is
00:33:14out there limiting some of these pools and not allowing the computer guys to get into
00:33:18it. But to me, this is the for horse racing.
00:33:20This is the ultimate damned if you do damned if you don't.
00:33:23I mean, you would know better than me.
00:33:25But I think the estimates are that the computer guys now account for about 35 percent of
00:33:29all the handle that at major racetracks like this.
00:33:32You don't want that handle to go away, obviously.
00:33:35But at the same time, in a parimutuel system, they're cleaning everybody's clock.
00:33:39They're cleaning John's clock, my clock.
00:33:41And the guy, even big bettors, guys that might wager two or three thousand a day are
00:33:46losing more now than they may have before these guys came around, because they're
00:33:50simply, you know, taking a bigger slice of the pie than everybody else.
00:33:55So so you either get rid of them and you lose a ton of handle or you let them keep
00:34:00going and you drive a lot of players out of the game.
00:34:03What is the answer to that?
00:34:05It's the words or less.
00:34:09Yeah, exactly.
00:34:10Well. What really happens is the the payouts are muted, you lose volatility in the
00:34:18payouts just because we parimutuel works, you know, like so the players get you could
00:34:23say they they get ground out quicker is really what you're getting towards.
00:34:28I think it's just a balance.
00:34:29I think thirty five, that's a big number.
00:34:32Do you think it's less than that?
00:34:33It can be.
00:34:34I mean, that ours it is a lot, actually.
00:34:37So there is a certain mix where it actually is healthy to keep the pools at certain
00:34:41levels because they they're consistent in terms of the amount that the volume that
00:34:45they'll bet. I mean, if you look at the financial markets, there's similar arguments
00:34:50that have occurred over time in terms of professionals in the system.
00:34:54They provide liquidity for the the pools.
00:34:57So it's not all negative, but thirty five percent a lot.
00:35:01OK. I mean, that's all I would say.
00:35:03That's that's a high number that I don't think that's a sustainable number.
00:35:06All right, well, Dave, thanks so much for stopping by.
00:35:08We appreciate all the insight and keep fighting the good fight on Heizer as well.
00:35:11Thank you. Thanks for coming.
00:35:13Good luck to us to meet as well.
00:35:15The Green Group guest of the week is sponsored by the Green Group, an accounting,
00:35:18tax consulting and advisory firm specializing in the thoroughbred industry.
00:35:21As this week's Green Group guest of the week, David O'Rourke will receive a free one
00:35:24hour tax consultation.
00:35:26Learn more at GreenCo.com.
00:35:28We'll be right back after this message from the Green Group.
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00:35:35We simply save them money and know how to make them more successful.
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00:36:06So we're thrilled to welcome to the desk right here, Andy Serling, Handicap
00:36:10Extraordinaire, Saratoga Institution.
00:36:13Wearing a sweater while I'm clearly sweating through my shirt here.
00:36:16Well, I was just riding my bike over to see my mom and kind of warmed up in the tent
00:36:19a little. You guys are making it so hot in the tent with all this great stuff going on
00:36:22here. Yeah, of course.
00:36:24Well, no, we're honored to be on this set.
00:36:26I wanted to ask you this personally, like a personal question, because we asked
00:36:28Acacia, we asked Maggie this about the difference this year and last year at
00:36:33Saratoga. Obviously, there's a huge difference.
00:36:35But you're a guy that's been coming to Saratoga for decades.
00:36:38So it's steeped.
00:36:39It's in your blood. How do you feel this year compared to last year?
00:36:42How much has it meant to have everyone back?
00:36:44I don't think you realized last year how sort of depressing it was in a way, because
00:36:50we were grateful to be here.
00:36:51I was grateful to be here.
00:36:52I kept thinking to myself, if I was if this was a normal situation, I wasn't working at
00:36:56Naira and Saratoga is running and fans want to go.
00:36:58I have been unbelievably miserable, even if I was able to watch on TV, because being
00:37:03here is incredibly fun and Bill's been coming here forever.
00:37:05He knows how much fun it could be to be here.
00:37:07And, you know, Saratoga is a place where all the people come.
00:37:10They don't come to tracks that much during the year, but everybody shows up for some
00:37:13period of time during Saratoga.
00:37:15And it's a very festive situation.
00:37:16So I was happy to be here in that situation and glad that we could be here because I
00:37:20feel like Naira being here answered the question of our commitment to Saratoga.
00:37:25And imagine if we hadn't come last summer, the entire year would have been, will they
00:37:29be back next summer?
00:37:30But because we were here last summer, nobody asked that question.
00:37:33We showed our commitment regardless of circumstance.
00:37:35So for that reason, I was so glad that we were able to come here.
00:37:38My mom is here. She's getting older.
00:37:39It's nice to spend time with her.
00:37:41So all that stuff was good.
00:37:42And it was just so nice being up in Saratoga after being in the city for a while.
00:37:47So you almost didn't notice just how depressing it was here.
00:37:50You didn't see anybody, right?
00:37:51I mean, a trainer would come over for a race or two.
00:37:53They were in and maybe if I was off the air, I'd see Chad Brown or Christophe Clement or
00:37:57any number of people I'm friendly with.
00:37:59Very few owners here.
00:38:00Good friends of mine at comp every year.
00:38:02So as it wore on, it was just like, you know, there's only so much the poor jockeys.
00:38:07They only had me to talk about and they can't stand me.
00:38:09So it was so depressing for them.
00:38:12They ended up talking to me probably more than anybody else.
00:38:14So, you know, it was an unbelievably odd situation, right?
00:38:18It's like, you know, it's kind of a situation of you ever walk through an airport and you
00:38:21see somebody you're familiar with and you, hey, you wait and then you realize, I hate
00:38:24that person. I never talk to them in real life, but it's that unfamiliarity thing.
00:38:28So then we get up here and we're back to normal.
00:38:30I mean, essentially, this is what it's been like for our whole lives being here.
00:38:33And it's just like, oh, man, it feels like a bad dream, you know?
00:38:36So that bad dream is at least that part of it is over.
00:38:39And it's just nice to be back to normal in Saratoga and enjoying a great summer up here.
00:38:43So, Andy, you kind of touched on some of this, but I'll ask you the I mean, there are
00:38:47thousands of racing talking heads out there.
00:38:49Most of them are pretty vanilla.
00:38:51You are anything but.
00:38:52You have an opinion. You'll express your opinion.
00:38:54And I was just wondering, first of all, why do you think it's important to do to present
00:38:59yourself and present your arguments about races and jockeys, et cetera, that way?
00:39:03And do you get a lot of blowback, be it from a jockey you might have criticized or maybe a
00:39:06phone call from somebody at Naira saying, you know, this really important owner is really
00:39:10pissed that you said this about his horse?
00:39:11Stop or anything like that.
00:39:12No, I never get that from Naira.
00:39:13OK, you know, between Tony Alvado and Dave O'Rourke that I work with, they don't.
00:39:18They got my they have my back.
00:39:19Absolutely. I mean, listen, if it felt like I said something out of line, Tony might say
00:39:23you might want to tone that down a little bit, but he would be right if he said it.
00:39:26You know what I mean? I would I would feel as though and I feel like I'm pretty good
00:39:29about not doing that. I don't really understand this whole notion that I'm this
00:39:35incredibly outspoken person because I've been betting the horses my whole life.
00:39:39I grew up with my friends in Saratoga.
00:39:41You're an argumentative guy.
00:39:42I know you pretty well. You're an argumentative guy.
00:39:44But that's what we do.
00:39:45Right. Isn't that what we kind of like about racing that we have different opinions?
00:39:49We throw them around. We say you're an idiot.
00:39:51I'm an idiot. This or that.
00:39:52I think that. And then they run the race and we're probably both wrong.
00:39:55And whenever you move on, you try to learn from it.
00:39:57So to me, I don't understand this argument.
00:39:59And the thing that's funny to me is obviously I get a lot of traction on social media,
00:40:04different people. You know, when I'm when I'm when I'm picking fairly well, I see less
00:40:08the minute I start kind of picking a little lousy like Spax Weekend.
00:40:11You know, people are coming out of the woodwork.
00:40:13What do they want?
00:40:14Do they want these people that go, I like the two, you know, or I like the four to five
00:40:18favorite or I don't dislike anybody.
00:40:21They're all beautiful. I hope, you know, whatever it is, those people, nobody's talking.
00:40:24I mean, I don't want to criticize anybody that works and it does what I do.
00:40:27People do what works for them.
00:40:29But for me, I thought it was what makes racing fun.
00:40:33The disagreements I work with Stabile, I mean, he's worse than me.
00:40:35Frank, you know, Stabile and, you know, and he and I are great friends.
00:40:38I mean, he's been on a little run.
00:40:41I think he's cut about six off, actually.
00:40:43But I thought that's what people want to do about racing is argue about it.
00:40:48So I'm not going to change what I do.
00:40:50It seems to be working.
00:40:51I mean, at least they're listening, you know, love, hate.
00:40:53They're all the same, right?
00:40:55Yeah, right. No, absolutely.
00:40:56And one of the things that we talk about on the show a lot also is, you know, when
00:41:00there's trainers that improve on horses and you just go, come on, how are they doing it?
00:41:04And you've been also very outspoken about certain trainers and, you know, how they've
00:41:09been able to move horses up.
00:41:11And you do get blowback from that, which which we also appreciate.
00:41:14But, you know, what what is going to what makes you decide, hey, I'm going to go
00:41:20ahead and say what I what I think about this, you know, this particular trainer?
00:41:25I have incredible thought process.
00:41:28I mean, if you're watching a race and you see an unusual form reversal, you immediately
00:41:34and we see them sometimes. Now, listen, sometimes you say, well, this horse has been
00:41:38X, Y, Z. I'm not surprised where it's moved up.
00:41:40When you see a trainer might be having a number of horses doing it, you're more
00:41:44cognizant of it. I don't think it's any different than handicappers looking at it.
00:41:47So we had one horse that one of this meet that was a total form reversal.
00:41:51And I pointed out, I don't think there's anything wrong with what I said.
00:41:54I didn't accuse somebody of doing so, nor am I accusing anybody, but to deny that what
00:41:58you saw on the racetrack happened and to pretend it's not happening isn't fair.
00:42:01Now, listen, I'm careful about it.
00:42:04The last thing I want to do is accuse people.
00:42:06And I find that there's a lot of willy nilly accusations thrown at people that are
00:42:10completely irresponsible about a lot of trainers in this game.
00:42:13But, you know, I pointed out about Jason's service on a number of occasions.
00:42:17I'm not trying to pat myself on the back for doing it.
00:42:19And I did get a hard time from some people at times doing it, not the people.
00:42:23Once again, my employers, Naira, they never had a problem.
00:42:25Nobody ever said anything.
00:42:27And I would just say, like, you know, you can't use the PPS to handicap their horses.
00:42:30They will improve from one start to the next.
00:42:32They'll run well. They won't run well.
00:42:34And so, I mean, I'm not trying to say I'm certainly not the be all and end all.
00:42:38But I do think in looking at performance improvements, looking at speed figures and
00:42:42looking at those things are one thing that indicates now, listen, any trainer, a good
00:42:46trainer can get one horse and figure out that whatever there was an issue with it and
00:42:50something and turn around. It's like I'll give you a good example of that.
00:42:53You hear a lot of talk about Brad Cox and Nick's go.
00:42:56Nick's go was a grade one winner as a two year old and finished second in the Breeders
00:43:00Cup juvenile. It's not like he was some twenty five
00:43:03thousand dollar claimant, never shown the ability.
00:43:06And there is a very fair argument for Brad Cox that he got this horse.
00:43:10He gave him some time and said, this is a horse that wants to run fast early and outruns
00:43:14which, by the way, we don't see very often these days.
00:43:17Nobody seems to want to do that. Nobody wants to go to the front anymore.
00:43:19They're all afraid that that's a bad thing.
00:43:21So I hear a lot of talk.
00:43:23And to me, OK, I don't you know, I'm not saying people would say whatever they want.
00:43:28But to me, I see a trainer that figured his horse out and got him to get back to what he
00:43:32was doing as a two year old that proved successful in a grade one race.
00:43:35And to suggest that, oh, this guy is a cheat because he I don't know, why don't all of
00:43:39his horses run like that?
00:43:40Yeah, well, I mean, I was saying this the other day I was on Bix show and I was talking
00:43:44about the era of suspicion where it's racing has let obvious
00:43:49cheaters off the hook for so long that it breeds suspicion of any move up.
00:43:54And that's not necessarily the case.
00:43:56There are plenty of, you know, honest horsemen, honest horsemanship that moves horses
00:44:01up for one reason or another.
00:44:02I haven't really heard you talk about Hysa and the reform that's potentially come into
00:44:06racing. Maybe I haven't watched the right stuff, but but so let's let's get you on the
00:44:11record now. How do you feel about that?
00:44:12Do you think that this is going to cure most of what ills the sport in that way?
00:44:16Well, I've been around a long time.
00:44:19I'm old like Bill. So I've heard a lot of things over the years.
00:44:22And I would love to see the sport cleaned up.
00:44:25If somebody is out there cheating, they're actually using performance enhancing drugs of
00:44:29some kind. They're stealing money from everybody here, everybody out there, from owners,
00:44:34from bettors and they're cheating the game.
00:44:36I love the game, whatever it is.
00:44:38The end of the day, I love the game.
00:44:40I think it's the it's the greatest thing ever in my life.
00:44:42My life is great because of horse racing.
00:44:44And so if somebody is cheating the game, there's nothing that we can do to them to be too
00:44:49much as far as I'm concerned.
00:44:50And if Hysa can help, Hysa can help and do that, I'm all for it.
00:44:55I don't have a real opinion except that people I respect think it's the right thing to do
00:45:00and I'm willing to defer to them.
00:45:01And I do agree with the argument that we have had our chances to police things and we
00:45:07have failed miserably.
00:45:08State to state, we never agree on anything.
00:45:10There's infighting now about this stuff.
00:45:12So I don't know what argument we have that this shouldn't happen because we've asked for
00:45:17it. We're like a misbehaving child that eventually somebody has to come in and crack down
00:45:21on us. They eventually they send you to one of those camps out in Utah.
00:45:24Right. Well, maybe we set us one of those camps.
00:45:27But yeah, I mean, in the people that are suing to stop it, there's never there's never an
00:45:31argument for the current system.
00:45:32That's how you can tell that it's broken because it's always just, well, this is
00:45:36unconstitutional. OK, so what do you want to do?
00:45:38Well, I don't know about that.
00:45:39We haven't really we haven't considered that, Bill.
00:45:41Yeah. And he's switching gears a little bit.
00:45:43Your work has now been broadened by the Fox Sports broadcast.
00:45:47I mean, just something that was unimaginable.
00:45:50You know, when you and I were young guys running around, you know what we're going to
00:45:53have every single day.
00:45:55But, you know, so we know it's a good thing.
00:45:57But what is your sense about what this has done for Naira?
00:46:02I mean, when we see I think the number was thirty seven million on Whitney Day, which is
00:46:06for a non Travers Day is astronomical figure.
00:46:10So, you know, what's your sense?
00:46:11Maybe it's just anecdotal or whatever, what this broadcast has meant for the New York
00:46:15Racing Association and has it achieved one of its main goals to get new fans to the
00:46:20sport? Well, there's a lot of questions in there.
00:46:24I think it's undeniable that it is it's elevated our signal, as you know, for much of
00:46:29the year with a number one signal anyway.
00:46:32But when you look at the numbers and you look at a Saratoga and we're out handling the
00:46:36next four tracks combined, it's clear that the eyes are on Saratoga and their eyes are
00:46:40on a racing in the Belmont number has been good.
00:46:42Aqueduct numbers were very good.
00:46:44You know, you think about a good the fall meeting's been at Akron the last couple of
00:46:47years and the weather holds up.
00:46:48And I think the show has I mean, you have to ask yourself, why is this happened?
00:46:52So it would be unreasonable to say the show doesn't play some role.
00:46:56I'm not going to pat myself or the people in the back and say, oh, we're responsible for
00:47:00all this, because a lot of people doing a lot of good things in Naira and to say that
00:47:04it's just the show and everybody else is just window dressing is unfair.
00:47:07I think Naira, especially with Dave O'Rourke, is doing a very good job of trying to do
00:47:13the right thing. And I think some of that's come out recently.
00:47:15So that may play a role. But clearly controlling our signal in this very positive way
00:47:21on Fox directly to people has put more eyes specifically on Naira as opposed to having
00:47:26to look and hope the races are shown live or when they're shown they're watching the show
00:47:31and more people watching. So clearly you would think the television has played a role
00:47:35and it's made us a signal that people more people are specifically paying attention to.
00:47:39I don't think you can ignore that.
00:47:41What was the part, the other part you said?
00:47:43I guess so. OK, so you're getting greater market share.
00:47:46Right. But that's admirable.
00:47:48But an even more admirable goal, I think, would be to get new fans for sport.
00:47:51That's a very hard time getting new fans.
00:47:54Do you think this is helping?
00:47:55I don't know. That's a good question.
00:47:57And the last thing I want to do is say, oh, we're doing this great job bringing new fans
00:48:01in because, you know, I think one of the problems racing has had and once again, only came
00:48:05to say you guys are children and we've been around for 100 years.
00:48:07I envy you're being younger than me is racing's had a bad habit of trying to bring new
00:48:12fans in while treating their old fans poorly and they bring new fans and they beat them
00:48:15poorly, too. That's not, you know, let's figure out a treat that people have been around
00:48:19for a while properly and then we'll worry about new fans.
00:48:21Are we bringing in new fans?
00:48:23I think the pandemic was a bit of a possibility.
00:48:26It got some new eyes on it.
00:48:27So hopefully they are staying with us a little bit as sports have come back.
00:48:31Obviously, Saratoga is the one place more than any other track, more than Keeneland,
00:48:35of bringing in new people who might get interested in racing.
00:48:38Now, that number might be three out of a thousand.
00:48:40I don't know what it is. I'm OK with that.
00:48:42I'm OK with the small numbers making better fans.
00:48:45You know, I saw some clown on Twitter criticizing me for saying I see my job as helping
00:48:50people lose less. I think if you don't understand that, you don't really understand the
00:48:54game, because I think if we educate people well, they'll have better opinions.
00:48:59Now, it's a double edged sword.
00:49:01The better your opinion overall, the more tough beats you'll take, the more times you'll be
00:49:05frustrated because the better your horse will run, because vice versa, your opinion
00:49:08stinks. Your horse will be running sixth and seventh all the time and you'll never really be
00:49:11there. But that's no fun.
00:49:13So our hope is to elevate people enough that they're making better selections and their
00:49:17horses are running well enough that maybe they're not always winning, but they're looking
00:49:20and going, that horse ran well, he could have won or they're getting a little.
00:49:23So I think the idea is to elevate people's play to get them more involved.
00:49:26Now, that may bring in some frustrations, but better to be frustrated your horse could
00:49:29have won the race and ran second or third than you're always betting horses running
00:49:33eighth. If you do that, you're not going to come back.
00:49:35So hopefully we're getting people into a place where they can have a better idea of
00:49:39what's going on and that can make better fans.
00:49:42How successful being that's very hard for me to measure or know.
00:49:46So you get the racing form, you know, for for this weekend at Saratoga and you're
00:49:50starting to go through it. Give our audience an idea of what are the the first what's
00:49:54the first or second thing you're looking at in the form that's going to make you, you
00:49:59know, tip either way as far as who you're going to bet.
00:50:01Oh, you know, first thing I'm looking at, I'm just running through the PPS looking for
00:50:06replays and, you know, and stuff I need to look up on formulator and things like that.
00:50:11And, you know, I'm not even in a pedigree stuff and not even a time form.
00:50:14And I mean, the basic thing I think that anyone should look at at first glance is, is
00:50:19there a lot of speed? Is there no speed?
00:50:20You know, as a race set up, who's looking to help and sort of highlight them?
00:50:23But then I go and I use time from U.S.
00:50:25to put in the pace projector and look at that and sort of look at their figures to
00:50:29compare them to buyer figures, which I use and see if they have some real discrepancies.
00:50:33And then I just sort of use formulator.
00:50:34I watch a bunch of replays and I try to put it all together.
00:50:37But it's a process. I mean, it's a process that works for me.
00:50:40And a lot of what I do, excuse me, let's face it.
00:50:45There are going to be races that any person can look at and go, I have absolutely no idea
00:50:49who's going to win this race and usually know that fairly early.
00:50:52Now, occasionally you'll look and you'll come pretty early.
00:50:55I'm on TV. I have to talk about those races.
00:50:56So I'm going to look. Those are the ones I race.
00:50:58I spend more time on. But a lot of what I'm spending time on is for my job here.
00:51:02And I try to portray there was a race on a Sunday, an eight horse field where I narrowed
00:51:06down to five, the exact two or two of the three I didn't like.
00:51:09And I said, look, I have no idea.
00:51:11You know, I'm doing the best I can here.
00:51:12And it turned out and I wasn't surprised.
00:51:14It's not a race. I hope that people understand what I said.
00:51:16I'm probably not looking to bet that race.
00:51:17Right. But a lot of the work I do is just a lot of it is for the TV show.
00:51:21Right. More so than my handicap.
00:51:22And they're two separate things.
00:51:23Well, that leaves you open to a lot if you have to have an opinion on every race.
00:51:27You know, when you're a regular horse player at the track, past races, this is it.
00:51:32That's the difference is a different beast.
00:51:33Yeah. And what about for baby races, especially here at Saratoga?
00:51:35I mean, what's going to what's going to tip you off?
00:51:37Is it trainer jockey combination?
00:51:39Is it breeding? Is it going back and watching the under tax show videos?
00:51:42What are you looking at? I watch the videos, the two year old sales.
00:51:46Some of them come out of I look up the pedigrees to see if there's any precocity or,
00:51:50you know, past horses just to sort of know some crap to talk about in the air.
00:51:54And I usually I don't look at the work I report, but I'll talk to a friend sometimes a
00:51:57day of and get some like if there were any big workout situation, that's more to know
00:52:01who's likely to take money and sort of an idea on that.
00:52:03So I have an overview to talk about.
00:52:05I don't want tips.
00:52:06The last I mean, whether you think my opinion is good or bad is fine.
00:52:11I don't think people want me to come up here and saying I have a tip on the four.
00:52:14I mean, they can get that horrible information on their own or not or hopefully not.
00:52:18So I tried it. You know, when somebody says to me, I'm going to give you a horse, but you
00:52:21can't say no, I'm going to say it on the air if you say it.
00:52:24So don't even say it. I don't want to hear it.
00:52:26And I'm not missing anything.
00:52:28You've been around the track. You don't miss anything.
00:52:29We don't get tips. I have some close friends who have horses.
00:52:32So occasionally I know about their horses.
00:52:34But in this case, they're usually a very short price anyway.
00:52:37So people don't need me to tell me those horses can run.
00:52:39Right. I wanted to ask about this because we just had your boss, David O'Rourke on.
00:52:44He made sure to tell me to ask me to tell you he was the guest of the week.
00:52:48So you're following the warm up act comes first.
00:52:52That's what I said to him.
00:52:53Wants to cut that.
00:52:54That's what I said.
00:52:55You know, I did want to see Soundgarden warm up for Guns and Roses.
00:52:58So there is that odd situation.
00:53:00But Dave's a warm up.
00:53:02He'll always be one.
00:53:03You guys can hammer that out later.
00:53:04But but one of the things I asked him about, one things he talked about yesterday at this
00:53:08racing and gaming conference was Belmont and Aqueduct and the idea of eventually maybe
00:53:12consolidating racing at Belmont as a guy who spends a lot of time downstate at Belmont
00:53:17and Aqueduct. I see you out there and you're in your wool hat in the middle of winter.
00:53:21I like that. That's a hardcore New York horse player.
00:53:24And I really appreciate that as a guy who spent a lot of time there.
00:53:26But so what's your opinion?
00:53:27Like, do you think that that's the future?
00:53:29And how would you feel if eventually racing is consolidated at Belmont?
00:53:33I love Aqueduct. I know that Aqueduct, Aqueduct's the most unfairly maligned racetrack.
00:53:39It's a city racetrack.
00:53:40It's never been anything other than the city racetrack.
00:53:42But Bill used to come out every day.
00:53:44We spent a lot of time at Aqueduct in the winter.
00:53:47And there's something to me that I find oddly romantic about taking the subway to
00:53:51Aqueduct, getting home from there, taking the subway.
00:53:54It's very convenient for me living in the Upper West Side in Manhattan.
00:53:57So I love Aqueduct.
00:53:59And I think the racing, if people have been paying attention, the first the first six
00:54:03weeks into December, we still have turf race there.
00:54:04As long as the weather holds up, the racing has been phenomenal there in the last few
00:54:07years. You really start seeing the two year olds coming out and the racing is terrific.
00:54:12I get it, though. You're running two big plants eight miles apart.
00:54:16Why would you want to why would you want to be paying for both these?
00:54:20It doesn't make economic sense. So I understand what Dave says.
00:54:24You know, I used to think that saying something was above my pay grade was an insult.
00:54:28I've learned in racing to be able to say things above my pay grade is actually good.
00:54:33That's up to them to decide what's right.
00:54:34I would I would if if and when Aqueduct closes, I will miss it because I love it.
00:54:39And it's the first track I went to in New York.
00:54:41I went with my grandmother in the old Aqueduct special back in the 70s.
00:54:44So I have a great love for Aqueduct.
00:54:46But that doesn't mean that Dave would be wrong about a business decision that we
00:54:50should make. And as much as I love Belmont Park and I do love Belmont Park, it's a
00:54:55bit of a dinosaur. I mean, we get filled up one day a year.
00:54:58So it would make sense to have a smaller model to make changes there.
00:55:01So I'm behind Dave on all the things he does.
00:55:04I think Dave has a very good understanding of the history of racing.
00:55:08Dave and I are good friends. We spent a lot of time together.
00:55:10So Dave's heard all my BS over the years.
00:55:12And I think he really he does respect that.
00:55:14He really respects horse racing.
00:55:16And I hope people realize that.
00:55:18But he also has to run a company and he has to make business decisions.
00:55:21So I don't think he's looking to make changes because he's some sort of, you know,
00:55:25you know, he's cost cutting or whatever.
00:55:26He's trying to make the realistic changes and try to move us forward in a very
00:55:30positive way. That doesn't mean I won't miss Aqueduct, even if I agree with her.
00:55:33Yeah, well, that was one of the first tracks I went to.
00:55:35I'm on the A-Line now, so it's super convenient for me.
00:55:37And I agree. There's something romantic about taking the subway to the racetrack.
00:55:41But yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of track, a lot of tracks, a lot of companies
00:55:45are going to have to move that way eventually in terms of consolidation.
00:55:48It's just the reality of the sport.
00:55:50I don't I can't stand what they did to Gulfstream in Florida, mostly because I spent
00:55:54some great winters there and I love the old Gulfstream.
00:55:56So call me romantic.
00:55:57And it's not my, you know, my place to tell them that I run it.
00:55:59I wish that they still the old track.
00:56:01So that's my complaint. It doesn't mean they were wrong.
00:56:03A track like Gulfstream, if that was a track that we put where Aqueduct is, it would
00:56:07make a certain amount of sense, you know, tracks like that.
00:56:09So I think these, you know, Aqueduct is obviously different because there are the
00:56:12slots are there and resorts worlds there.
00:56:13But yeah, I think if anything, opening that kind of brand new casino has, you know,
00:56:17made it made such a contrast with Aqueduct, which is so old school, which I like.
00:56:21I think it's charming. But I always say that if you walk through that walkway from
00:56:25the casino to Aqueduct, it's like going back in time 40 years and a couple of
00:56:28minutes. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird.
00:56:30Just Andy, thanks. One more trivia question.
00:56:32Did you realize that this is the first time in racing and Lehigh University history
00:56:36that two Lehigh grads are on the same panel for a show?
00:56:39Are you sure that I am sure that I went to the archives?
00:56:42Yeah, I was a journalism major. So I actually went through the archive.
00:56:44Proud moment for Lehigh.
00:56:45They should be good for their recruiting.
00:56:47I'm sure. I can imagine that they'll have you know, probably.
00:56:49I mean, now this is how clueless these guys can be.
00:56:52These young guys. I brought up the actually I think I'm John.
00:56:57You'll know this. Who won the 1972 Sanford Stakes?
00:57:00Secretary, of course.
00:57:01Can you believe they got it?
00:57:04Bill Pilsen. I was three years old when I was there.
00:57:06And I said, for the first time, I must be a man of war.
00:57:08I said, it must be a man of war. He was three years old the year before, right?
00:57:12Aristides won that race.
00:57:14I'm sure. I'm sure you're right now. Yeah.
00:57:17Andy, thanks so much for stopping by.
00:57:18Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:57:19And it's an honor. I'm serious.
00:57:20It's an honor to sit with you. Thank you.
00:57:21You guys did a great job. Appreciate it.
00:57:23The TDN Writer's Room is brought to you by the Minnesota
00:57:25Thoroughbred Association's 2021 Yearling Sale.
00:57:28Coming August 29th at Canterbury Park.
00:57:30Quality selection of yearlings from top Kentucky stallions
00:57:33like Taprit, Race Day, Practical Joke, Cross Traffic and Wicked Strong.
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00:57:39for affordable and classy future racehorses.
00:57:42Download a catalog today at minnesotabred.com.
00:57:4539 yearlings catalog for the upcoming MTA Minnesota Bread Sale.
00:57:49August 29th, like I said, which will follow the afternoon's races
00:57:52at Canterbury Park and also some yearlings by Practical Joke,
00:57:56Midshipman, More Spirit, Free Drop Billy and more. So get involved.
00:58:02They're chasing clickbait who spurts clear by five.
00:58:05It is clickbait with a keen turn of speed,
00:58:08but clickbait and Roymus Gerinos are gone.
00:58:15But Friday Night Star is going to debut victoriously in a stakes race.
00:58:20Friday Night Star is the star.
00:58:24Ready to run away, handling the distance with poise
00:58:28and ready to run away is the Minnesota Oaks champion.
00:58:34Dom Plata, slowly edging clear.
00:58:38Dom Plata with another display of excellence is the Futurity Champion.
00:58:53So we're thrilled to welcome to the desk Eclipse champion rider,
00:58:56one of the leading riders here at Saratoga, this meet Jose Ortiz.
00:58:59Thanks for joining us, man. Thank you.
00:59:00We're glad to have you.
00:59:02So I've been asking everybody this,
00:59:04you know, you rode here at Saratoga last year when there were no fans.
00:59:07What's the atmosphere been like this year compared to that?
00:59:10Much better.
00:59:11We love the fan and the excitement they bring to the show is just unbelievable.
00:59:17Does it get you going more when you're like riding through a stretch
00:59:20and can you hear the crowd?
00:59:22Well, honestly, when I'm on the race, I don't really hear the crowd
00:59:26unless it's a really big race that it really gets loud.
00:59:30But other than that, no.
00:59:32But if you can hear them, does that add to the excitement for you?
00:59:35Of course, you know, sometimes excitement and kind of.
00:59:39Little nervous, because when they cheering really hard is because
00:59:42if you are in front, somebody's coming after you.
00:59:46Yeah, yeah.
00:59:48Jose, thanks for joining us, first of all.
00:59:49And you've ridden a lot of good horses over the years, but I'm not.
00:59:52Not that I recall.
00:59:53Have you ever ridden a horse that may be horse of the year?
00:59:56And you have that this year in Latruska.
00:59:58And I know you've only ridden her last two starts.
01:00:01Matter of fact, your brother, Irad, rode her in the Apple Blossom.
01:00:03But, you know, talk about her coming into the personal lens and and,
01:00:07you know, what it's like to ride a mare that's this good.
01:00:10Well, she's very, very good, but I don't think I'm riding her next
01:00:16because if you recall, Latruska was a case that I picked up
01:00:21the mount when I fell down in Belmont.
01:00:24So I picked up the mount and then she was going to run.
01:00:27They wasn't sure she was going to run a Churchill,
01:00:30but I was going to be there anyway to ride Maxfield.
01:00:33So they didn't want to tie it up, Irad, and then scratch.
01:00:35So I rode the filly again.
01:00:37And now for the personal end scene, I think it's going to be Irad.
01:00:40But yeah, she's very exciting.
01:00:42And and I mean, she's very tough in the division.
01:00:46And the speed that she have and the stamina is,
01:00:50you know, it's a killer.
01:00:50It's hard to keep up with her.
01:00:53And Jose, as an owner, I always appreciate
01:00:55when I see you on one of my horses.
01:00:57And one of the reasons why I like you on one of our horses
01:01:00is that you have a very good clock in your head.
01:01:03Explain to the to the audience, you know, how you know
01:01:06when horses in front of you are going so much faster and you can sit chilly
01:01:09or you need to start speeding up because the pace is so slow.
01:01:13And just start with the horse that you are riding.
01:01:16If I'm riding a speed horse.
01:01:19And I feel like I'm brushing in a little bit to be up close.
01:01:25That means that they're going very fast.
01:01:27If I'm riding a fast horse
01:01:30and they crawl, I have to be pulling him very, very hard.
01:01:34It doesn't mean that the pace is it's kind of it's low.
01:01:36So I mean, it's it's 50 50.
01:01:40You got to be connected with your horse and.
01:01:43And the horses in front of you, too.
01:01:44Right, right.
01:01:45So you gauge it based on, you know, looking at the racing form in advance
01:01:50and kind of knowing how the race is going to play out in your mind.
01:01:53And then you compare it to actually what's going on.
01:01:55Yeah, you got to be prepared for sure.
01:01:59Sometimes, you know, then, you know, there's no pace in the race.
01:02:02Right, right.
01:02:02And, you know, sometimes you think it's not pace.
01:02:07I'm going to try to break.
01:02:08And then you go to out to the paddock and the trainer tell you,
01:02:11tell you, no, it's not speed in there.
01:02:14But he don't like to run that way.
01:02:15So either way, just try to stick to his game plan.
01:02:19And, you know, sometimes people complain,
01:02:22there's no speed on the race, what they think, and this and that.
01:02:24But at the end of the day, you got to follow your instructions.
01:02:28Right. And if you get beat with your instruction,
01:02:32the trainer is not going to be mad at you.
01:02:33But if you decide to be on your own and you get beat and
01:02:37it's going to be on you, you know.
01:02:39So I wanted to ask, you know, you and when you and Ira came over,
01:02:42you came straight to New York, toughest colony in America, maybe in the world.
01:02:47A lot of other guys, they started smaller tracks.
01:02:49Then they worked their way up to New York.
01:02:51How has that helped you and Ira, you know, kind of get off running?
01:02:56You guys were successful basically from the jump.
01:02:59How did coming to New York right away help your career?
01:03:02Well, I think Ira came first.
01:03:05He did came straight to New York.
01:03:07But it was very natural talent.
01:03:10He had the talent.
01:03:10He just need to polish a little bit,
01:03:14learn the way the riders ride in the States and their language.
01:03:18And he did. And I think he works extremely hard.
01:03:23He deserves everything he got. He earned it.
01:03:25No, I mean, he's great.
01:03:27But that competition factor, how stiff the competition is,
01:03:30how has that helped you?
01:03:32Yeah, you get better and you get competition.
01:03:35You need to get better.
01:03:36And that drive you to get better.
01:03:39My case, Ira sent me to parks.
01:03:42He thought if I go to parks, I could win the Eclipse Award.
01:03:45Riding in a park, riding a nine pin and all them tracks around it.
01:03:52But I came to New York and win one race and I have a good offer from a good agent.
01:03:57I decided to to came here when I was I was there just for two months.
01:04:01Yeah, I remember you being at Ecuador real early.
01:04:04Yeah, I came to Ecuador like
01:04:08March, something like that.
01:04:09March or April. Yeah.
01:04:11Jose, we've seen over the last 30, 40 years, a progression
01:04:14of just one great rider out of Puerto Rico after another.
01:04:17You have to start with Angel Cordero.
01:04:18You go to John Velazquez, you go to you and your brother now.
01:04:22How much is that due to the jockey school they have there,
01:04:25which is something that really has never happened
01:04:27or to a high degree in the United States?
01:04:29What kind of advantages to give the young riders coming out of Puerto Rico?
01:04:32It's huge, huge.
01:04:35I mean, Angel and Johnny set the path for us,
01:04:38and hopefully we're setting the path for the ones coming behind us.
01:04:42And it's good for a school because
01:04:45we're working on their government funds.
01:04:50So, I mean, if they see results like they're seeing now,
01:04:55they're going to keep helping the school.
01:04:57So we need that.
01:04:58We work hard for it.
01:04:59I have it on the back of my head, you know, and I know everything I do
01:05:04is going to be reflected on the school back home and the kids.
01:05:08They look up to us now.
01:05:10So it's got to keep that on the back of your head all the time.
01:05:13Yeah, well, I just wanted to follow up on that.
01:05:15When you guys do go back to Puerto Rico, you like local celebrities.
01:05:19So they're like, what's that like?
01:05:23People do know horse racing well there, and we are pretty well known.
01:05:29Yeah, a little bit.
01:05:31I don't say huge, like all the sports, baseball, boxing is huge back home.
01:05:38Basketball.
01:05:38But I think it's pretty good, especially if we go out on the track
01:05:42or we go to the track.
01:05:43It's big. Yeah.
01:05:45Joe's asking you that question because the show is shown in Puerto Rico.
01:05:49So when Joe goes to Puerto Rico, he's a celebrity down there.
01:05:51You know, people are buying him drinks and dinner.
01:05:53He wanted to know if he would transition to the job as well.
01:05:56Other than the New York racetracks, what's your favorite track to ride in at Y?
01:06:01Honestly,
01:06:03Keeneland is a unique track and it feels like the Saratoga atmosphere.
01:06:09Like people, all the Keeneland Smiths are pretty, very nice.
01:06:13Right. And the fans can get up close and personal there, too, right?
01:06:16Yeah. Yeah. And it's full every day.
01:06:18It's wild. Right. Right.
01:06:20Are they are they nicer?
01:06:21Are they more educated or are they meaner than New York?
01:06:24No, they're pretty good.
01:06:26Yes. It's like New York.
01:06:27New York is good.
01:06:28Oh, there is a very
01:06:31like, you know, Keeneland is like horse country.
01:06:34So people do respect them nicely.
01:06:36And I've never had a bad experience out there.
01:06:38Yeah. So, Jose, the one of the stories of the meet, Luis Saez,
01:06:42you've got to tip your hat to him. He's had a tremendous meet.
01:06:45He's got thirty nine winners right now.
01:06:46You're second with thirty four.
01:06:48Can he catch him?
01:06:49And how important is it to you to catch him?
01:06:52I think Saez has been winning for years now.
01:06:55Yeah. Don't surprise me.
01:06:57He's a very good jockey.
01:06:58He had a great agent back
01:07:01a year ago, two years ago on the
01:07:04Ritchie, the pass.
01:07:05I mean, you make a hall of fame of agency.
01:07:09You got to be there for sure.
01:07:10Yeah. And now he made the transition to Karen,
01:07:14which is a well known guy out on the track.
01:07:17Very respected by everybody.
01:07:20And I'm not surprised.
01:07:23The success is having on the media.
01:07:24He's having is a great guy.
01:07:26He's young. He rides hard.
01:07:28Would I want to beat him?
01:07:29Yeah, I want to beat him.
01:07:31It means a lot to me.
01:07:32It's Saratoga.
01:07:34I win three titles already.
01:07:36And I know it's not easy.
01:07:38I don't take it for granted.
01:07:39And I mean, if it's this year,
01:07:43let it be, but I'm going to fight for it.
01:07:44You know, I got to do it.
01:07:46I think I'm close enough on five.
01:07:48Yeah. You know, one day can turn it around.
01:07:52Had a good day.
01:07:53You know, four wins.
01:07:54I'd be at one.
01:07:56But the only problem is that he's not going to stop winning.
01:07:58Right. Right.
01:07:59You know, from now on, I have to.
01:08:02Like I had if he win one, I had to win two.
01:08:06If he win two, I had to win three.
01:08:08Because he's not going to stop winning.
01:08:09So that's how you think going into the days?
01:08:12Honestly, I'm not.
01:08:13I just go out there and ride my horses.
01:08:16I think the most pressure you put in your head.
01:08:19I mean, the results are not going to be very good.
01:08:22Then you've got to ride loose.
01:08:23And that's what I try to do every day.
01:08:25Yeah. Right.
01:08:26I mean, the last question for me, you know, people see the end result.
01:08:28They see you during the day riding horses in the winner's circle.
01:08:32But there's a lot of work that goes into it in the mornings.
01:08:34You know, can you talk about the dedication it takes to be a top jockey in America?
01:08:39Yeah, it takes a lot.
01:08:41Like you say, morning works.
01:08:43The preparation you got to do before.
01:08:46You got to stay healthy.
01:08:47You got to stay in weight.
01:08:49You got to stay in shape.
01:08:51And the mental, you got to be mentally right
01:08:54to come out here and perform and do well.
01:08:57It's not easy.
01:08:58You're going to be taking off horses every day.
01:09:01Like they're going to take you off one.
01:09:04They're going to push you on one.
01:09:05So when they take you off a good one,
01:09:08you cannot come here and ride mad all day because it's not going to go well.
01:09:13I think that mentally you got to be in the right place.
01:09:17And you got to be in good shape to be riding.
01:09:23But it takes a lot.
01:09:24Like you say, it's not easy.
01:09:25And there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes,
01:09:31you know, behind the afternoons.
01:09:33Yeah.
01:09:34Well, you're absolutely killing it this week.
01:09:36We appreciate you stopping by the desk.
01:09:37And I'm going to talk to you.
01:09:38Good luck the rest of the meet.
01:09:39Stay healthy. Keep killing it, man.
01:09:40Thank you, Joe.
01:09:41Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.
01:09:43Good stuff.
01:09:44The TDN Rider's Room is brought to you by Legacy Bloodstock.
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01:09:50could benefit your program, give Tommy or Wendy a call.
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01:09:55And the entries are out for the Keeneland September sale.
01:09:58We mentioned that before.
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01:10:03City of Light, Always Dreaming, Collected, Taproot, Army Mule and more.
01:10:07We'll be right back after this message from Legacy Bloodstock.
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01:10:13I guess we're part of a dying breed.
01:10:15We're really grateful for the people that entrust us.
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01:10:19We're always with your horse every step of the way.
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01:10:59in racing partnerships at westpointtb.com.
01:11:03So some West Point news from the sale.
01:11:04They bought five yearlings at Fasig-Tipton Saratoga as of yesterday.
01:11:08And there are small pieces of three of them still available.
01:11:10There's an Army Mule Colt that's going to go to Todd Pletcher,
01:11:13a Bolt D'Oro Colt that's going to Christophe Clement,
01:11:15and a Quality Road Colt, who's also going to go to Todd Pletcher.
01:11:18And Dripping Gold, who we talked about last week,
01:11:20had a very nice first at win on the Saratoga turf,
01:11:24is going to be pointing to the Breeders' Cup Juvenile Turf at Del Mar.
01:11:27Probably have a prep race or two in between that.
01:11:30All right. So Bill's not just here to do the show.
01:11:32He was covering the Racing and Gaming Conference here at Saratoga yesterday.
01:11:35There was a lot of big news in that time.
01:11:38We talked to David O'Rourke about a lot of his comments earlier,
01:11:41which was really fascinating.
01:11:43But I think the thrust of it and a lot of it was about HISA
01:11:46and how realistic it is that HISA is going to be implemented
01:11:50by its scheduled date, which is July 1st, 2022.
01:11:54It seems like that's seeming unlikely.
01:11:56And there were some competing interests at the conference yesterday
01:11:59and people who are indeed suing to try to stop that
01:12:03because they say it's unconstitutional.
01:12:05Bill, what did you learn from yesterday?
01:12:07Yeah, Joe, I mean, I don't think
01:12:08I've given this enough thought, but there's two reasons why HISA is
01:12:13I'm not even saying might not happen, will not happen on July 1st, 2022.
01:12:18And that was one of the subjects that they were talking about
01:12:21at the gaming conference.
01:12:22First of all, there's the logistics and all the hurdles
01:12:25that the states have to jump through to get this.
01:12:28You can't just pull the plug on everything on June 30th
01:12:32and then on July 1st say, oh, HISA is here.
01:12:33Yeah, it's going to take an incredible amount of work.
01:12:36And you're dealing with government agencies and agencies
01:12:40that are used to taking their time with things.
01:12:42And I think it was very unreasonable for the authority
01:12:47or whomever is in charge to say or even to put this date out there.
01:12:51It was never going to happen.
01:12:53But on top of that, now, you know, we've heard a lot from the
01:12:56and we're all pro-HISA guys.
01:12:58We've heard a lot from the pro-HISA side.
01:13:00We haven't heard much from the anti-HISA guys.
01:13:03And they had their voice there.
01:13:04And I don't agree with the thing they have to say.
01:13:06And John, I know I'm stealing your thunder, but I'll say it.
01:13:10You know, you ask these guys,
01:13:12why do you want to get rid of it?
01:13:13It's unconstitutional.
01:13:14Or maybe Joe, you say, I'll give you both credit.
01:13:15Why do you want to get rid of this?
01:13:16It's unconstitutional.
01:13:17OK, what's a better system?
01:13:19I don't know.
01:13:20That's not an OK answer.
01:13:21It's just not.
01:13:22But look, these are people that are determined
01:13:25to do everything they can to submarine this thing.
01:13:27Will they win in the long run?
01:13:28No, I don't think so.
01:13:30But I think that we've kind of just taken this threat lightly.
01:13:34And whether they win or not,
01:13:35they at the very least, they can keep this thing tied up
01:13:38for years in courts.
01:13:40And Bennett Liebman, who is one of the moderators of this
01:13:42and a very astute guy, he even predicted there's a chance
01:13:45this will go all the way to the Supreme Court.
01:13:47Now, is it going to happen on July 1, 2022?
01:13:49No. How long is it going to take?
01:13:51I'll just it's just a guess.
01:13:53I think it might be three years or something like that,
01:13:55which is really discouraging because we all want change now.
01:13:58But if it's going to happen, trust me, it's not happening.
01:14:02July 1, 2022.
01:14:04Yeah, I mean, and that's unfortunate.
01:14:05But like you said, it's not necessarily just the lawsuits
01:14:09that are going to delay this thing.
01:14:10It's that there's so much to do for the authority,
01:14:14even in a perfect world where nobody was suing to stop this.
01:14:16There's so much to do. There's so much to regulate.
01:14:18There's so many rules to come up with.
01:14:19There's comment periods.
01:14:20It has to go to the FTC
01:14:22and then be posted for several months before it can become law.
01:14:25So, yeah, I mean, it was it was very ambitious when this passed
01:14:29to try to set it up in a year and a half.
01:14:31But it's it's depressing.
01:14:32And it's it's you know, like we've said before, this isn't like a
01:14:36a fix all situation.
01:14:38This is certainly going to need some finessing and some adjustments
01:14:41even when it does hopefully if and when it does come into being.
01:14:46It's it's going it's going to be a process.
01:14:48But just the idea that there are, you know, there are legal hurdles
01:14:52and there are logistical hurdles that are going to delay this for several years.
01:14:56It's very depressing.
01:14:57And it's it's unfortunate because I do feel like there's a lot of positive
01:15:01momentum in the right direction for racing to clean itself up.
01:15:04But it's just there's it's it's a slow moving process.
01:15:08And it's not going to it's not going to be very satisfying, I think,
01:15:11in the next year or so, because we've built this up so much.
01:15:13We've built it up as, you know, not like I said, not a cure all,
01:15:16but something that's, you know, the once in a lifetime opportunity
01:15:20for racing reform.
01:15:21And the other thing, you know, God forbid we have another huge scandal
01:15:24between now and the time Heisa comes in.
01:15:26And by the way, that very well could happen.
01:15:28And I'm getting a little off track here.
01:15:29But, you know, we still think that maybe someday they will indict
01:15:33a bunch of more people in the service Navarro because of all the records
01:15:36kept by the drug sellers and the vets, et cetera.
01:15:38So or, you know, the you know, a prominent horse breaks down or something.
01:15:43There's all sorts of negative things that we hope won't happen,
01:15:47but could happen between now and the beginning of Heisa.
01:15:50And Alan Foreman, who's been on the show before,
01:15:52you know, basically said time is up.
01:15:54You know, we have to change.
01:15:55We've lost the narrative.
01:15:57We need change. We need change now. Right.
01:15:59And Bill, did they discuss at all the elephant in the room,
01:16:02which is how to pay for this?
01:16:04You know, actually only the only the anti Heisa guys.
01:16:08They painted the picture of and, you know,
01:16:11I don't know exactly how this would work.
01:16:13And we don't know how the funding is exactly in work.
01:16:16But, you know, honestly, John, maybe they had a little bit of a point.
01:16:20They were saying that.
01:16:21So we assume that it's going to be some sort of start fee.
01:16:23OK, so John Green starts a horse on a Saturday at Saratoga.
01:16:26It might you might have to spend $50 or something.
01:16:28I mean, presumably that's it.
01:16:30I don't think I think you'd be glad to do that.
01:16:32It's not a lot of money and it's for the good of racing.
01:16:34But they're trying to say the guy running in a five claim
01:16:37or a prairie meadows at $50 may actually mean something to him.
01:16:40But, you know, so their argument was this is really going to hurt the small guys.
01:16:44And in some respects, I think they have an argument.
01:16:47I think John Green running a hundred thousand dollar stakes race at Saratoga
01:16:50should have to pay more than the guy running in a five claim or premise.
01:16:53That only makes common common sense.
01:16:55If the percentage tax, that's one of the things.
01:16:57Getting back to the original point, they haven't worked this out.
01:17:00Right. That's one of eight thousand things they have to work out.
01:17:03And if they're making progress, it's certainly happening behind the scenes
01:17:07without anybody telling anybody.
01:17:09I mean, what have we ever heard about how what kind of progress is being made?
01:17:12We don't hear a thing.
01:17:13Yeah, I mean, and that's where the proponents of this
01:17:16have kind of left themselves open to criticism because it really has.
01:17:19They have never addressed that core issue is how this is going to be paid for
01:17:23because it's going to be expensive.
01:17:24It's going to be a ton of drug testing.
01:17:25USADA doesn't come cheap.
01:17:27So that, yeah, that has been, I don't know, maybe a little bit of an oversight
01:17:31and just everybody being so gung ho about this and including us.
01:17:34Right. And we haven't really talked about that a lot either.
01:17:37So it's yeah, it's there's definitely a lot of hurdles.
01:17:40But just to transition from that, you know, just just to show the
01:17:46how far we still have to go.
01:17:47Wayne Potts this week was suspended at Monmouth Park.
01:17:50Now, if you remember, Wayne Potts is a guy who was ruled off the grounds at Maryland
01:17:54in Maryland by Sal Sinatra for supposedly program training for Marcus Vitale,
01:17:59who we saw up here, unfortunately, fairly recently.
01:18:02And he's the leading trainer at Monmouth.
01:18:05And it just you know, we love Monmouth Park.
01:18:07And, you know, Dennis Drazen has been on the show before.
01:18:09And I think he's overall a pretty smart guy.
01:18:12But eventually, I think Monmouth kind of has to answer for how it's been.
01:18:17I'm not going to say in the past, definitely a cheater's paradise.
01:18:20I don't want to get sued here and say it's currently a cheater's paradise,
01:18:23but definitely with service and Navarro around.
01:18:25I think Monmouth eventually has to answer for that,
01:18:27that so many guys who are bending the rules have been able to flourish there.
01:18:30Well, quite frankly, it's an embarrassment.
01:18:32And I can say it from, you know, racing at Monmouth all these years that
01:18:36that when you allow cheaters to come in, alleged or proven,
01:18:40it's going to water down the competition.
01:18:43It's going to make larger outfits like ours not want to race there anymore.
01:18:47Because why?
01:18:47Why are you trying to get your horse peak to run second or third
01:18:50against somebody that's, you know, using, bending the rules
01:18:53or breaking the rules and getting an unfair advantage?
01:18:55Yeah. And and this is nothing new.
01:18:57This is straight from, you know, the thoroughbred regulatory rulings website.
01:19:02Wayne Potts has been, you know, has 87
01:19:05different rules that have that he's been found guilty of.
01:19:09Now, some of them are administrative, but a lot of them are,
01:19:13you know, the majority of them are drug related.
01:19:15Yeah. So if you know, as a racing jurisdiction, whether it's Monmouth
01:19:19or any of the racetrack that's out there, that you have somebody that's coming in
01:19:23that has 80, 87, 80, what's the number of Monmouth?
01:19:26Is it 100? Is it 110?
01:19:28What's the number where you say, you know what, this is an embarrassment.
01:19:31We're not going to have this individual come to Monmouth and and represent our brand
01:19:36because that's what's happening.
01:19:37They you know, the trainers there, if he gets the leading trainer award,
01:19:41they're going to go ahead and put a plaque up
01:19:42and they're going to be proud that Wayne Potts is the leading trainer there.
01:19:46That's an embarrassment.
01:19:47Right. And if you go back a couple of years, when when Horry Navarro,
01:19:50we talked about last week, the infamous juice van video,
01:19:53Dennis Drazen came out kind of in support of Horry Navarro when that happened.
01:19:56And not just, you know, we don't have jurisdiction to do anything about it.
01:20:00Basically, like Horry Navarro has represented Monmouth Park well,
01:20:03and we're going to continue to allow him to run horses there.
01:20:06So let me ask you, this is someone who used to run horses there.
01:20:09I just as an outside observer, I think that if you if Monmouth
01:20:13cracked down on the cheaters, field size would go up.
01:20:16You would have, you know, you would have more participation,
01:20:19but maybe that horses left the barn already. What do you think?
01:20:22Yeah. And I can only speak for our outfit.
01:20:24But, you know, I've been very outspoken of saying one of the reasons
01:20:27why we don't run at Monmouth is because it's an unfair situation.
01:20:30I just said it five seconds ago, and I'll say it again.
01:20:33It's an unfair situation.
01:20:34So why run there? Why run there?
01:20:36You know, when you know going into it, you're defeated.
01:20:38It just doesn't make any sense.
01:20:39So, yes, if they rid themselves of Navarro and Jason Service
01:20:43and people like Wayne Potts at this point, you know, yeah.
01:20:46We would consider bringing our operation back.
01:20:48I can't speak for other groups and other operations,
01:20:50but I know that in speaking to other owners and other trainers,
01:20:54they look at it and they say, why? Why would I go there?
01:20:57Now, if they raise purses, would people go there?
01:20:59I'm sure they would go back, because at some point in time, people have a price.
01:21:02But it would keep us out of out of racing at Monmouth,
01:21:06a racetrack that I love.
01:21:07I mean, it pains me to say that I live five miles away from the racetrack
01:21:10and we race there for 30 something straight years.
01:21:12So it's it's difficult to have these conversations.
01:21:16But you can't have your leading trainer be representative and have 87,
01:21:21now 88 different, you know, you know, discretions.
01:21:26There's another story here to touch upon.
01:21:29New Jersey Racing Commission is incompetent and run by incompetence.
01:21:33And one of the reasons I say that one of the many reasons I say that is
01:21:37I and John, we were talking about this last night.
01:21:39The last 10 years, I cannot remember a single positive of anybody
01:21:44at any time coming out of Monmouth.
01:21:46Now, they had the juice man and service and they never caught them
01:21:49and they never caught anybody doing anything.
01:21:51So I do wonder how how much do you need to mess up?
01:21:56That's how egregious this has to be.
01:21:58New Jersey Racing Commission, you know, again, maybe Wayne Potts is just doesn't.
01:22:03Yeah. And, you know, it's that that stuff trickles down to the betters, too,
01:22:07because it makes it unbettable product.
01:22:09Betters can't trust the integrity of it.
01:22:11Short fields, short price favorites.
01:22:13And it makes it kind of an unworkable racetrack, which is unfortunate
01:22:16because it's a beautiful place and we all love it.
01:22:18Obviously, you guys are closer to it than I am.
01:22:20But, you know, we finally got the answer.
01:22:22We always talk about guys getting 10th, 12th, 15th, 20th chances.
01:22:26The 88th chance is when they bust you.
01:22:2888 is the limit.
01:22:29And then and then they'll knock on your door and say, you can't race here,
01:22:32at least for a little bit.
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01:23:13All right, so that's a wrap on our 100th show.
01:23:15I just got to say that it is an absolute honor and an accomplishment
01:23:19that I'm proud of and I know we're all proud of to get to 100 episodes.
01:23:23Listen, I don't listen to podcasts, but this one caught on somehow for some reason.
01:23:27And we appreciate all the support, all the support from the sponsors,
01:23:30obviously Bill and John and everybody who's jumped in along the way.
01:23:33Kelsey, Al, Brian, our incredible partners.
01:23:36Thank you so much for joining us.
01:23:37We'll see you next time.
01:23:38Everybody who's jumped in along the way, Kelsey, Al, Brian,
01:23:42our incredible production staff, Patty, Nathan, who's here,
01:23:45Eldon Phillips, who jumped in from Naira.
01:23:47I want to thank Naira for letting us have this set up right here.
01:23:51Tony Alivato in particular.
01:23:53We really are appreciative of that and honored to be here
01:23:56because they do such a great job on a day to day basis.
01:23:58And it's just so great to be at Saratoga.
01:24:01I'm getting a little emotional here, but it's just it's so full circle for us
01:24:05and for everybody in racing to be able to come back here,
01:24:08but especially for us to be able to celebrate this milestone here at Saratoga.
01:24:12We really can't ask for anything more.
01:24:14So with that, that's going to do it for the 100th episode of the TDN Writers Room
01:24:17presented by Keeneland.
01:24:18Don't forget the Keeneland September catalog is online now.
01:24:21Four thousand thirty four yearlings.
01:24:23The sale starts Monday, September 13th.
01:24:25You can learn more at catalog dot Keeneland dot com.
01:24:28I want to thank Bill Finley, John Green, our Green Group guest of the week,
01:24:31David O'Rourke, also Andy Serling and Jose Ortiz, our producer,
01:24:35Patty Wolfe, our associate producer, Katie Ritz.
01:24:37And like I said, Nathan Wilkinson and Ellen Phillips.
01:24:38Thank you guys so much for chipping in.
01:24:41We hope you enjoyed it.
01:24:41We'll see you next week back in the studio.
01:24:43Yeah, everybody. Great job.
01:24:47Well done, y'all.