Co-hosts Rob Flis & WatchMojo founder Ashkan Karbasfrooshan chat about the 2016 Hack that temporarily derailed the set trajectory for the channel, and ushered in a new era of upgrades in line with an ever changing security landscape.
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00:00This program might contain strong language.
00:07If you think you may be offended, switch off now.
00:20Hello, everybody.
00:21Ash, what are you going to serenade us with today?
00:24I don't think I have those permissions granted to me yet.
00:27How are you?
00:28I'm great.
00:29Welcome, everybody, to the Inside Mojo podcast, where each week we take a look at another
00:33key moment and watch Mojo's 20-year history on YouTube.
00:37I'm your host, Rob.
00:38With me, as always, is our musician friend, Ash Gant.
00:42How's it going?
00:43I assume we have the same uniform on today.
00:46Yeah, black tees all the way.
00:48After last night's Seattle Habs game.
00:51Oh, yes.
00:52I didn't watch the entire thing, but I was out with friends and I saw it on in the background.
00:57It's 1.15 Eastern time, so I may be a bit tired, but let's go.
01:00Yeah, those Western games are killer.
01:03Yeah, today we're talking about the hack that temporarily crippled WatchMojo in 2016.
01:10But before we get to that, you had written recently an interesting article titled IDGAF,
01:17which, if you can put that together, you can imagine what that stands for, with a nice
01:23visual representation right there.
01:25Yeah, let's talk about this.
01:27I read the article and I kind of know what you're referring to, but is there anything
01:31that you want to elaborate about on that?
01:33No, I mean, it's all kind of, you know, I find related connections between any things.
01:38So I remember back in 2017, when I had brought on a chief financial officer, one thing he
01:45said to me was, which I really did appreciate, he was like, you know, I must say you have
01:50really good judgment.
01:51He's like, you generally avoid mistakes and when you have to make a decision.
01:55And honestly, that was really what I always strive for.
01:59You know, we talked about my influences, people like Cyrus the Great and others.
02:02You know, the sense of making good decisions is something that I always like.
02:07So when we were going to do this topic on hacks, which you're like, well, what is the
02:14relation?
02:16Yeah, I wrote it.
02:17I was like in Orlando and we were talking last week and just seeing Disney.
02:21And I was thinking of like these big companies like Disney, Warner, News Corp, Fox and, you
02:27know, Hearst and all these like really, really successful storyteller entrepreneurs who built
02:32these companies.
02:33I was like, yeah, you know what?
02:35Like you got to manage a team and it's not like technology where it's like, does the
02:39search engine work or not?
02:40You know, it's like, does Excel add up or not?
02:43And I go, it's really, really hard because you know, if you're Guy Laliberte, the Cirque
02:48du Soleil founder, you hire, yes, some business people, lawyers, even like your designers
02:52may be nine to five.
02:54But you also have like an army of like jugglers and fire breathers who like really are
02:58artistic and they're the soul and heart of your organization.
03:02But they could care less about like a lot of things.
03:05So, I mean, there's no perfect anecdotes and parallels.
03:08But like I said, you know, the analogy I use was like, imagine you're running a concert
03:11venue.
03:12I don't know.
03:13I mean, you're a music fan.
03:14Remember the great white fire?
03:15And you know, you're always telling your team, you're like, hey guys, to protect you from
03:19not burning in a fire, but also our patrons.
03:21I'm like, let's leave the store, this alleyway empty.
03:24And like, you know, once you see some guy puts a case of beer, some guy puts a ladder,
03:30some guy's sleeping, God knows what's happening.
03:32So, a couple of, like a few weeks ago, a month ago, there was like something like that, you
03:37know, and it was really more precautionary.
03:39And, you know, I sent an email, which is like the kind of email I send every few years.
03:43Like, I remember when we all worked in the office, sometimes the team would just leave
03:47all their dishes in the sink.
03:49And like, I just sent an email with like the Seinfeld scene where like Kramer puts like
03:53concrete in like the-
03:55In the laundry machine.
03:56The laundry machine, to make a point.
03:58I'm like, guys, you know, don't make me do this.
04:00It's like a joke.
04:01So, but this, the only, the comment was bring it all together is I said, I am seen as like
04:06a domain expert.
04:07I am seen as somebody that others view as experienced and knowledgeable, so to speak.
04:12But I still try to be humble and modest and come to you guys for basic things.
04:16And I'm like, did you guys get a notice from the city saying this could, this alley could
04:21now be like a, you know, stock repository?
04:24Did somebody tell you you could put a double lock on it?
04:27You know, it was more like tongue in cheek.
04:29And to bring it now home with hacks, what happened was, and I, this is, I don't mind
04:34sharing it.
04:35It's interesting for me, but like one of the employees sent this email to one of my board
04:40members.
04:41And why am I saying this?
04:42Because it boils down to judgment, you know?
04:44Like, I think if this person would have, we have a suggestion box.
04:47If somebody would have emailed me anonymously and said, hey, I don't like what you said.
04:50I think it's unfair.
04:51Or this is why, this is where you're wrong.
04:53I would have been like, cool, you know, good feedback.
04:56It's a shame I can't ask this person more question.
04:58But I was like, you know, on vacation and I had just come back from a board meeting where
05:04we had a great board meeting.
05:05The company is doing phenomenal.
05:07The industry is everything going in our direction.
05:09And my board was like tiptoeing.
05:11You know, they don't want a crazy Ash to show up, which they would not.
05:14But they were like, you know, somebody said, hey, Tyler, somebody was like, hey, you know,
05:18like an employee sent this.
05:20What's it about?
05:21And obviously I'm not the one to throw anybody under the bus.
05:24So I still defended the team.
05:26And I was like, oh, no, you know, it was one error.
05:28I downplayed it and I put it in the context of everything's great.
05:31But I was just sitting there.
05:33And like after the board, I told my fellow VPs because I just didn't want it on my chest.
05:37And I was like, the word was not pissed.
05:39It wasn't angry.
05:41Definitely not vindictive, vengeful.
05:43It was just this frustration and disappointment.
05:45Because I was like, you know, for two years we've talked about this.
05:48The board, yes, they represent all stakeholders.
05:50But they represent investors.
05:52So I'm like, here, I've been protecting you guys when you make mistakes, which we all do.
05:57I have my own list of top ten mistakes I do.
06:00I'm always out there positioning you guys in a good light.
06:02And I would never slander or disparage you to the board.
06:05I always project you in a good way.
06:07But after two years where they're like, should we have layoffs, like every other company, to simplify.
06:12They also had reasons not to.
06:14And I defended and I kept the team together.
06:16I'm like, this is what somebody does thinking they're being a hero.
06:19And maybe in their head they are.
06:21Or maybe they have valid concerns.
06:22But I'm like, all you did is you made the whole team look like a bunch of jabronis.
06:26And it would actually bring more attention on you.
06:29So I thought of judgment.
06:30And I thought of the CFO's comment.
06:32But ultimately, and I mean you were copied on the email, I'm very direct.
06:37I told the team, I said, look, somebody did this.
06:39I think it's fine.
06:40It doesn't offend me.
06:41I questioned the judgment and the rationale.
06:43But I said, just so it's also clear, I go, I am like a geek of all these things.
06:48Management.
06:49I care about ethics.
06:50Governance.
06:51I go, I've studied whistleblowing.
06:52This is not whistleblowing.
06:53Whistleblowing is if we're doing something unethical or illegal.
06:56I even know what snitching is, which is like, yeah, if you have a neighbor who's like a gangbanger and you kind of call the cops, you're snitching.
07:03But society doesn't come and beat you up because they're like, you took a criminal off the street.
07:07I'm like, here, just so I understand, you guys made a mistake.
07:10I said, I come to you asking for feedback.
07:13You guys don't give me that courtesy, even though I'm technically the boss.
07:16And I'm also CXO, right?
07:17Like I'm in charge of legal.
07:19I'm in charge of finance.
07:20I'm responsible for all these things.
07:21Like I'm the crazy one that wants to do every idea.
07:23But then the devil and the angels.
07:25So it was disappointing.
07:27But I did think of, like, things that come out, you know, whether it's to your board or to employees.
07:32And my main, and I'll end here on this, I'm agnostic, atheist maybe even.
07:37But I do believe in that concept of judgment day.
07:40You know, I do believe that the truth always comes out.
07:42So I run the business almost like we're a publicly traded company, like to the extent it's normal, where I'm like transparent.
07:48I'm accountable to all.
07:50To viewers, I used to say when I was Mr. X, I was like, I'm your ombudsman.
07:53If we do something wrong, tell me.
07:55But so in today's show, we're going to talk about hacks a little bit.
08:01And we actually did a list.
08:03I mean, we'll talk about the WatchMojo.
08:06But it was fascinating when I was researching this, when you brought that up last week.
08:10I was like, oh, we did a video.
08:12And I kind of started to look at it.
08:13So I was like, let's actually do this show, talk a little bit about some of those entries.
08:16And then happy to dive in with the WatchMojo.
08:19Yeah, for sure.
08:20Before we go further, I think we have a poll that's going up on our YouTube channel.
08:23So just wanted to mention that for the audience that's watching.
08:26You can go in and weigh in with your thoughts there.
08:28We want to know, what do you think is the biggest reason that companies get hacked?
08:32Do they not invest enough in cybersecurity?
08:35Is it that hackers are always one step ahead?
08:38Are employees making mistakes?
08:39Or is it often an inside job?
08:42So let us know what you think.
08:44I'd love your thoughts on that before later on you read the answer.
08:48But I don't want to bias anybody.
08:49Who is I?
08:50I'm just a guy here in front of a camera.
08:53You are Mr. CXO, which is what I wanted to ask you about right now.
08:57Everybody knows what a CEO is.
08:59But how do you define CXO?
09:02CXO is actually not Chief Experience Officer, which I think in corporate lingo,
09:07that's sometimes they use it.
09:09You can imagine if you work at a bank or if you work at Disney theme parks,
09:12there might be a CXO to discuss everybody's experience.
09:15CXO is something that I actually have been using for almost a decade.
09:20We had a CFO at one point.
09:22And then when the gentleman wanted to leave to try new things,
09:25we didn't really need to replace them given that my background is finance
09:29and we have a great team in admin.
09:31Same thing with marketing.
09:32We did have a CMO at some point.
09:34We have a VP who handles marketing.
09:36But ultimately, a CXO is, I thought of like Craig Newmark,
09:40the founder of Craigslist, the disruptor in online classifieds.
09:44He used to describe himself as just like a customer service rep
09:48for all issues pertaining to Craigslist.
09:51And in many ways, I feel like that's what I do and I love my job.
09:55Every day, I have these set things to do.
09:58And then I have all this – somebody called it, somebody else,
10:01they were like shoveling shit, which is very crude,
10:03but I understood why she would say that.
10:05But it's ultimately you get at like a help desk of either your marketing team,
10:09your editorial team, your legal.
10:11And you have to be versatile.
10:13And the analogy I use is Tom Brady has to be an assassin on every play.
10:17He's a sociopath.
10:18I remember one time a Detroit line cornerback for safety was like,
10:21no, no, no, you're not throwing here.
10:23The motherfucker threw four passes against that guy,
10:26connected on all four.
10:27Two, maybe even more, were touchdowns.
10:30I don't know if that guy was cut afterwards or not.
10:32So the point is in business, it's different.
10:35Like here, I view it as this is kind of you're running the show.
10:39Yvonne, the producer, he's the boss.
10:41If I step out of line, he could tell me off.
10:43Even when I played soccer and I was the striker,
10:45I would always listen to all feedback.
10:47So the CXO is something that I just feel is going to rise.
10:51More and more people are going to use it.
10:52There was a fellow CEO actually who founded Lightspeed,
10:55a much bigger company out of Montreal, and Dax De Silva.
10:59And when he just said, oh, you know, you've got to wear many hats,
11:01I was like, yeah, it's just you're the CXO now.
11:03You're not just the CEO.
11:04And he was like, I love it.
11:05So I wrote the article.
11:06And that's also the spirit, right?
11:08When it comes to judgment and hacks, sometimes I'm like, hey,
11:10as like the editor-in-chief, I'd love to cover this topic.
11:12But from a legal sense, we're probably shooting ourselves in the foot.
11:16So before we get into the specifics on WatchMojo's hack,
11:20we do have a top 10 list that we produced on the biggest hacks of the 21st century,
11:24which would be a good thing to look at.
11:26So if we can pull up that list.
11:29Passwords for documents in the same file folders as those documents themselves.
11:34It's really just a face palming security mess.
11:38Welcome to WatchMojo.
11:39And today we'll be counting down our picks for the top 10 biggest hacks of the century so far.
11:44This is bad.
11:45Worst DDoS attack I've ever seen.
11:47And if that person is out of this country, will you have jurisdiction?
11:50So I don't think we need to watch the whole thing.
11:52But maybe we could just go through some of the entries.
11:55Yeah, I think we also have the article up here that we can kind of scroll through.
12:01But a lot of these are very well known.
12:05All right.
12:06There you go.
12:08So, yeah, number 10 on the list, the DNC email leak from the 2016 election.
12:13Well, this is probably we could call it the Hillary Clinton final nail in the coffin.
12:18Yeah, at this point.
12:19Yeah.
12:20I mean, this is an interesting one.
12:22I mean, we should spend maybe just a few seconds on each, not too long.
12:24But this one to me is interesting because this one you clearly could tell somebody had an agenda.
12:28But whether or not the objective was what was accomplished, I don't know.
12:33This is an interesting point that oftentimes there could be like a stated goal.
12:37But when you release everything into the wild, then somebody could be like, well, wait a minute.
12:43There's this email where like Hillary did this or the FBI director does that.
12:46And it has it's a can of worms, you know, the genes out of the bottle.
12:50But, yeah, this one was, I think, pertinent in my humble opinion, just because this is what killed Hillary's campaign right before the election.
12:56Yeah.
12:57Number nine, the Equifax leak of 2017.
13:00Do you trust financial services?
13:02Like in terms of your data, like if you bank with, you know, Acme Financial or whatever.
13:07I don't want to slander any banks.
13:09Because when I worked with Visa, I just assumed that like that's when it opened my eyes.
13:13I was like, wow, everything I do, everything I buy and geographically where I go is pretty much known.
13:19And then I was like mobile phones.
13:21So now I just assume I'm boring.
13:23I'm a nobody.
13:24But what's the point anymore, you know?
13:26Yeah, I kind of I kind of assume that there's like a certain risk with anything that you would give information to, you know, like it's kind of something that you accept at this point.
13:35Like there's a little bit of risk everywhere.
13:37I try not to overthink it too much.
13:39That's fair.
13:40We've got CelebGate at number eight.
13:43That was a that was a crazy one.
13:45The Apple leak that a lot of iCloud photos got released of celebrities, including Jennifer Lawrence, Kaley Cuoco, Kirsten Dunst.
13:53That was bad.
13:54That was very bad.
13:55And I think it kind of was carte blanche for a lot of like sexist and misogynistic like overtones.
14:00Because if a gal in her private time is doing God knows what she wants to do, more power to her type of thing.
14:05But if a guy, first of all, wants to see those pictures, you know, they're not going to get leaked.
14:09So I remember that.
14:10And, yeah, I mean, that sucks.
14:11And, you know, again, be careful what you want to put on.
14:16Yeah, exactly.
14:18At number seven, eBay's leak from 2014.
14:21There was a data breach that compromised 145 million accounts.
14:27Yeah.
14:28To me, all of these, especially like, you know, Web 1.0 platforms, I feel like there's just so many legacy systems.
14:34Like legacy, not vis-a-vis IBM.
14:36Legacy vis-a-vis like, you know, Google.
14:39Or if you start ChatGPT now at OpenAI, you're just going to take all the best practices and start on a, in theory, more strong, robust.
14:47But it just takes one entry point.
14:49Oh, foreshadowing.
14:50It takes one entry point, which we'll touch on later on with WatchMojo, to really bring down, no matter how much security you have, you're vulnerable.
14:58Yep.
14:59We've also got the Facebook hack from 2013.
15:02Two million passwords were stolen.
15:05And then in 2019, there was an even larger breach resulting in 500 million Facebook accounts being hacked, which, yeah.
15:13I mean, Facebook is kind of notorious for problems.
15:16Like people to this day, you always hear of friends whose accounts have been hacked and stuff like that.
15:21It seems to be an ongoing occurrence that happens with them.
15:23Yeah.
15:24And I also think, I don't want to speak specifically of Facebook because I do know some people there and they're great people in terms of tech chops and all.
15:31But I think what happens is sometimes internally, we talked about the CXO.
15:35Sometimes internally, you could have a marketing person that's like pushing the envelope for what they should do in terms of signups or in terms of like how many steps do you need to ask before you can create an account, just to keep it pretty pedestrian example.
15:47If the counsel's in that room or if like they're a CTO, chief technical officer, or mainly your chief information officers in the room, they may be like, let's hold on.
15:57Let me check something.
15:59But oftentimes what happens is a combination of, I don't want to say ignorance in a bad way, but lack of awareness of laws and protocol versus just a communication breakdown.
16:10And that's why the whole CXO content I like because I'm like, you need to bring a lot of perspectives when you make these decisions.
16:16Yeah.
16:17Number five on the list, First American.
16:19In that one, 885 million mortgage documents were stolen by hackers.
16:24Yeah.
16:25That's major.
16:26We've got Ashley Madison.
16:27That's another scandalous one.
16:28That's very, yeah, that's very, very fascinating.
16:31I remember I knew there was this gentleman that used to do marketing for them and I just met him on LinkedIn at the time that this happened.
16:39It's honey, I swear it was research.
16:42Yeah.
16:43I mean, this one is, I mean, this one is like life affecting.
16:47It's not just like, oh, people know my credit rating.
16:50Ooh, the shame.
16:51I'm not going to get that second credit card.
16:53I mean, this is obviously affects lives.
16:56I mean, whatever you think.
16:59I don't sign up to these services, even online dating.
17:01I met my wife before these took off.
17:03Actually, no, it's funny.
17:05When I started my career at AskMen a lot because it was like a men's online magazine, we had a lot of my clients and advertising were the online dating platforms.
17:13And so I would kind of be like, okay, how many of these are real?
17:16Are there any fraud?
17:17And like the issues that they had to deal with very different than today.
17:20Obviously, Ashley Madison was to hook up with like married women, basically.
17:24So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like I always go.
17:27If you sign up to these services, assume it's going to risk.
17:31Basically, it's like it's going to get out.
17:33So you have to be.
17:34Yeah.
17:35I'd like to know exactly how many divorces resulted from that leak specifically.
17:38That would probably be a really, really, really adventurous follow up.
17:42You know?
17:43Yeah.
17:44Number three, there's the Yahoo leak of 2013 and 14, which was enormous.
17:51And oh, and number two, Sony Pictures Entertainment.
17:55So Sony's been really bad with leaks.
17:57So Sony, this one to me is the one that I thought of, which was basically a crazy storyline.
18:02It was the dictator, which allegedly about North Korea, allegedly pissed off King Jong Il.
18:09Like this is the story.
18:11And then he got his hacking team to go in and the stuff that they found was really more embarrassing.
18:20But there were like, you know, C-level executives who would say extremely disparaging things about minorities.
18:27And anyway, so this ended careers.
18:31You know, this was really, really a big deal.
18:34But it just goes to show that, you know, Sony Pictures pissed off a dictator.
18:41And the dictator unleashed a cyber attack on them, which really ended careers.
18:46Like, if you think of it, and I've also talked about the concept.
18:49It's like the plot of a movie.
18:50It is.
18:51There you go.
18:52Better than the dictator.
18:53I've actually talked about this concept of corponations, where like the Googles, Alphabets, Microsofts, Facebooks.
18:59They're like massive.
19:01They operate across borders.
19:03Their soldiers are across all.
19:05And so here what happened was a country went after a corporation.
19:10It's just surreal.
19:12And I didn't believe it at first.
19:13I was like, no, this is not North Koreans that are doing this.
19:17But that was apparently what happened.
19:19There's also a mention here of the huge PlayStation Network hack that also happened in 2014.
19:24The same year where, you know, a lot of people's information got stolen.
19:28And just as a tangent, in the gaming world, hacks have become commonplace.
19:32Like, not just where users' information has been stolen, but companies like Insomniac Games,
19:38who do most of the big Marvel games these days, had internal leaks where, you know,
19:43plans for future games were leaked and stuff like that.
19:45So this has become a pretty common thing to see in the gaming world also.
19:49Number one on the list is the WhatsApp hack of 2019.
19:55It's funny.
19:56I don't even remember.
19:57I mean, obviously, I might have been part of the team that looked at this.
20:00But I don't even remember this, you know.
20:02Like, this was, to me, obviously huge in terms of numbers and whatnot.
20:06But, again, I just assume you're going to get hacked, you know.
20:10Like, I really think.
20:11Or not you're going to get hacked.
20:13But, like, whatever you put in email or you communicate.
20:17Maybe you've heard me even in meetings.
20:19I'm like, oh, so-and-so is in here.
20:20I don't like speaking behind their back.
20:22But if they were here, I would say this as well.
20:24I do believe that things get out.
20:26Whether it's through a hack or employees talking or whatnot.
20:30And I will add, not that I care about this that much,
20:33but even my board was like, we read your email.
20:35There's nothing violating any HR protocol here.
20:38You're upset.
20:39We appreciate you doing this.
20:41So I'm just getting at.
20:42But my assumption, whenever I write anything,
20:44is somebody is going to read this that you did not intend to be a reader.
20:48And they may lack context, right?
20:51Anyway.
20:52So, yeah, that's that for our top ten list.
20:54The main thing that I'm seeing that's different from WatchMojo's hack is that
20:58it's not like users' information was stolen and disseminated across the internet.
21:03It was more like our site was essentially taken down
21:06or our YouTube channel was taken down.
21:08All the videos were removed, essentially,
21:11which caused a huge blow to the business.
21:14And so maybe you can elaborate on that.
21:17What exactly happened?
21:18What was the situation?
21:19How did you find out about it?
21:20Sure.
21:21So, yeah, I mean, in a way, I hate to say this.
21:24I wish it was just the website,
21:25because the website's a tiny piece of the business,
21:27although the website is protected.
21:29But, again, we're not infallible.
21:30So no, Hacker Nation, I'm not challenging you.
21:32I'm sure you could hack us five ways to Sunday.
21:34It's not, no need.
21:36We're not here.
21:37We come as friends.
21:38So what happened was we used to, you know,
21:41Google is funny in that they launched Gmail,
21:44and obviously for a lot of their platforms,
21:47Google went from like a consumer platform,
21:51search, maps, even YouTube,
21:54but over time more of an enterprise commercial platform as well.
21:58Gmail eventually had Gmail Enterprise.
22:01Google Enterprise in the cloud
22:03competes with like Adobe or whatever.
22:05And so even YouTube,
22:07which initially was like a consumer place
22:10where you go sign up with like, you know,
22:12Rob Funkmasterflex on Assassin's Creed Killer.
22:17Like you had this weirdo email at Gmail,
22:19one of our colleagues at I gots the skills.
22:22And that's a fact.
22:24I won't name who.
22:25If you knew that before hiring,
22:26would you have like gone through with it?
22:28Questionable judgment.
22:30Well, so, so like, you know,
22:32we might've used whatever, you know,
22:34Ash K.
22:35It wasn't me though, but I don't want to,
22:36but let's say you had like,
22:37my email was like Ash K mojo face there,
22:41at gmail.com.
22:42So we all had emails like that.
22:45And well, what happens?
22:47Well, if you know,
22:48Dick, Tom or Harry is using that for watch mojo,
22:50but they go on a trip or they use wifi as much as you could be like,
22:55don't do that.
22:56I mean, you're,
22:57you have to be empathetic and like common sense there.
22:59It was no way to really build,
23:01you know,
23:02layers of security plus two-step verification was somewhat new.
23:07And I used to be like,
23:08Hey everybody,
23:09if you don't mind,
23:10if you've got time,
23:11sorry to be,
23:12you know,
23:13I was very polite,
23:14etiquette,
23:15usually 99% of the time.
23:16That's who I am.
23:171%.
23:18Sure.
23:19I say you're crazy and people don't like it,
23:20but so I never really forced people.
23:22I wasn't like,
23:23if this isn't set up by Friday,
23:24you're fired.
23:25I mean,
23:26he talks like that,
23:27right?
23:28So,
23:29so what happened was one of our colleagues just,
23:30they didn't do anything wrong.
23:31They just,
23:32at one point their account got compromised.
23:33They could have been at a wifi,
23:35you know,
23:36again,
23:37it was just something for work on vacation.
23:38So I wasn't,
23:39I never blamed anybody for this.
23:40It was just a lesson,
23:41but so somebody's email,
23:44that was also a personal and work email to access our YouTube accounts.
23:48Like that person had an official at watch Mojo account,
23:51but that's not what we used to log in at the time.
23:53It was compromised.
23:55And it's like,
23:56once you get in like a Trojan horse,
23:58you could leave crumbles to be able to do further damage.
24:02So what ended up happening was this person got in through,
24:07the kind of,
24:08it was normally a firewall,
24:10but not a technical,
24:11but a symbolic firewall.
24:13Once they were in,
24:15they could then basically do whatever they want.
24:19Now,
24:20again,
24:21maybe I'm this idealistic naive person,
24:23but they could have deleted.
24:26You said something that wasn't really correct and I'll clarify and correct.
24:30They could have deleted every video and then,
24:32well,
24:33then it's hard to reupload.
24:34They,
24:35like Google has cash,
24:36like they have cash memory.
24:37You can bring it back.
24:38It's a pain in the butt,
24:39but you know,
24:40it's,
24:41it's,
24:42they don't want to go there,
24:43but I believe that's basically there should be an option.
24:45But so what they did,
24:46it was more nuisance.
24:48Like it was more,
24:49even if it might've been personal towards me or because we featured something in a video,
24:53which I doubt,
24:54like I never knew the why,
24:55but they just reset all of our metadata.
24:58So the table of every video almost became like,
25:01I forgot,
25:02I should really remember it,
25:03but it was really irreverent and childish.
25:06So there was no way already.
25:08We had like thousands of video.
25:09There was no way we were going to go back and manually change it.
25:12So even though this was right before less,
25:15June 24th,
25:16I was all excited about the euros,
25:182016.
25:19It was right before I was going to go to Greece for the first time,
25:22like literally the day before we actually had a happy hour scheduled.
25:26Obviously we kept it and the team was like,
25:28why is Ash smiling?
25:29And I was like,
25:30well,
25:31what do you want me to do?
25:32You know?
25:33But it was also,
25:34by then I will die.
25:35It wasn't just this Zen master.
25:36It was like,
25:37I knew YouTube was going to help fix us the metadata.
25:39But what we realized right away was,
25:41Hey,
25:42wait,
25:43like we're not getting the same views.
25:44Our videos are not getting as much as we don't care about the algo.
25:46We care about the audience,
25:47the editorial,
25:48we still pay attention.
25:49You know,
25:50we're not stupid there.
25:51It's like,
25:52I look at the weather and I'll go out in shorts when it's minus 20.
25:54And so,
25:55yeah,
25:56we realized something was off.
25:57And then when we chatted with YouTube,
25:58they were like,
25:59you effectively change the metadata.
26:01So the signal that you're sending across all your videos is that these are new
26:04videos.
26:05So whatever SEO search engine optimization,
26:08or,
26:09you know,
26:10algorithm mojo in terms of related videos and what is suggested to users on
26:16YouTube,
26:17they're like,
26:18you're kind of lost all that,
26:19which sucks.
26:21But,
26:22but I was like,
26:23again,
26:24it's weird when I think about it,
26:25I was extremely pissed.
26:26I blame myself quite a bit,
26:27but I was like,
26:28okay,
26:29like facts could be fatal.
26:30And this was before we did this video,
26:32but I was like,
26:33hacks could be,
26:34you know,
26:35could end lives,
26:36could end careers,
26:37could end relationships,
26:38could end your business.
26:39You might end up hurting your clients.
26:41You might be susceptible to a class action lawsuit.
26:44When CrowdStrike security,
26:47cyber security systems were mentioned in a lawsuit by Delta,
26:52the real culprit,
26:53not to throw Microsoft under the bus,
26:55but it was a Microsoft issue that led to CrowdStrike.
26:59Because all these things talk to each other,
27:01right?
27:02So long story short,
27:04very quickly,
27:05I was like,
27:06this sucks,
27:07but I did feel that like,
27:08yeah,
27:09absolutely.
27:10It did hurt us.
27:11You know,
27:12it did set us back,
27:13but okay,
27:14you could sit there,
27:15but that's kind of like saying,
27:16again,
27:17I'm not a car person,
27:18but imagine you,
27:19you are,
27:20and you have three Lamborghinis,
27:21two Ferraris,
27:22and somebody steals,
27:23you know,
27:24your,
27:25your,
27:26your,
27:27your Porsche.
27:28But like,
27:29you got six Ferraris and three Lamborghinis and the Bugattis.
27:32I mean,
27:33it was like,
27:34not a good parallel.
27:35You know,
27:36obviously I would have been concerned.
27:37Like if stuff happens and you're like,
27:38Oh,
27:39I have to let people go.
27:40Cause the business is really hurt.
27:41This wasn't knock on wood that this was just,
27:43we fucked up and we were unlucky,
27:46but that is life.
27:47And you move on and you don't sit there and salt.
27:50Cause people are like,
27:51shut up.
27:52You know,
27:53or like we,
27:54we wish we had 50% or 80% of the views that you now have relative to
27:57before,
27:58you know,
27:59so you need perspective in life.
28:00You know,
28:01you've heard stories about hackers who like go ahead and like find
28:04weaknesses and like government systems and like get in and then end up
28:07getting hired by them to like improve their security afterwards.
28:10And it doesn't sound like this was a super malicious attack because as
28:13you mentioned,
28:14they didn't take down videos.
28:15They just kind of reset the meta metadata to be like,
28:18haha,
28:19look what we can do type thing.
28:20Yeah.
28:21But you also don't want to,
28:23I'm not challenging anybody,
28:24but I also think is like,
28:25it could have been like,
28:26I hate watch.
28:27Won't go.
28:28This is malicious,
28:29but also damages could happen.
28:30Like,
28:31I also think to the hacker,
28:32you know,
28:33don't think just because I'm not thinking about hackers,
28:35but sometimes online,
28:36I see people under anonymous profiles thinking they could slander,
28:40defamate,
28:41defame,
28:42do whatever they want.
28:43And I'm like,
28:44do you really think the platform,
28:45if I go get a basic,
28:46a junior novice lawyer could walk to the courthouse,
28:49just say this statement on this platform caused me harm or prima
28:54case caused me some harm,
28:55define it as you want the judge.
28:57And you're like,
28:58I want to see who this is because this goes above and beyond
29:01freedom of expression.
29:02You can't docks people.
29:03That's the irony.
29:04But if you go and get a court and say,
29:06this is causing me harm,
29:07especially in certain jurisdictions,
29:09you bring it to Papa Elon Musk.
29:10You think Elon Musk is going to care.
29:12He's going to be like,
29:13this is who this person is.
29:14It's funny.
29:15Even anonymous,
29:16the legendary anonymous,
29:17we're not,
29:18you know,
29:19this comes from props and praise,
29:21but I don't understand.
29:22Their X account is verified,
29:24which means you have to provide an ID,
29:27right?
29:28Did they provide?
29:29Yeah,
29:30that's a good question.
29:32I wonder that myself.
29:33Yeah.
29:34How do you assess the impact of,
29:36of the,
29:37the results of the hack?
29:38Well,
29:39sure.
29:40It costs us millions of dollars,
29:41but have possible future revenue.
29:43That sucks.
29:44And some people would look that and go lament and,
29:46you know,
29:47jump off a bridge.
29:48I didn't care that much about us.
29:49What did hurt me more like was we lost a lot of possible
29:52views going forward.
29:53Like it basically,
29:54you know,
29:55if you looked at our trajectory and how we were keep growing,
29:57I mean,
29:58we're talking about a billion plus video views the next year that
30:01YouTube did not serve up.
30:03So I think of the little boy who grows up and wants to learn
30:06about Batman or the gal that wants to know what the best
30:09sandwiches and owls are and,
30:11you know,
30:12what music she should listen to when she discovers Ozzy Osbourne.
30:15No,
30:16I'm kidding,
30:17but that was really as like a storyteller entrepreneur,
30:19like kind of irritated me a bit more.
30:21But again,
30:22I mean,
30:23after that,
30:24I went to Greece on vacation first time I was there,
30:26but again,
30:27like you've heard me say it before COVID.
30:29I used to always think back at my life,
30:32especially professionally and be like,
30:33Oh,
30:34what a great time,
30:35you know,
30:36flying high and doing this and doing that.
30:37But I swear to you,
30:38if I actually think of a given moment,
30:40all of those moments were actually like very,
30:43not just,
30:44I wish melancholic.
30:45They were just things were aggravating me because again,
30:48a CXO you have like the,
30:49the weight of not just 10 executives or one department and their
30:53employees,
30:54you have like this Delta of shit coming your way.
30:57And I was really just like,
30:59this was eating away at me.
31:00I kept going to bed worrying that,
31:02you know,
31:03maybe we'd get hacked again.
31:04I literally used to wake up thinking,
31:05Oh shit,
31:06we got hacked.
31:07But then very quickly I was like glasses half full.
31:10It's all good.
31:11This is just another thing to deal with.
31:13And now I actually sleep better.
31:15I have fun.
31:16You know,
31:17I don't give a fuck anymore.
31:18That's the thing.
31:19Not that I don't,
31:20I'm not passionate,
31:21but I'm just like,
31:22who cares?
31:23Like I don't control this.
31:24Like,
31:25you know,
31:26it's,
31:27it happens and just be positive and charge ahead.
31:28Yeah.
31:29Tying it back into the theme of the first article that we spoke
31:31about.
31:32It's all connected.
31:33It's all connected,
31:34sir.
31:35Where does it land on the list of setbacks that you've experienced
31:37with WatchMojo?
31:38Oh my God.
31:39Oh my God.
31:40I mean,
31:41this one's weird because it was like,
31:42once we had found product market and flying high,
31:44you know,
31:45I was like,
31:46okay,
31:47should we be twice the size?
31:48You know,
31:49more employees,
31:50more of this.
31:51Sure.
31:52But I'm not driven by like greed,
31:53like in the sins and virtue sense.
31:54I'm like,
31:55I'm like,
31:56okay,
31:57so that sucked.
31:58Look,
31:59the lawsuit was really sucky because if we would have lost,
32:00that would have just been fatal and over running out of money
32:04sucked as well,
32:05but that was harder because I mean,
32:07you're not going to go steal money.
32:09So that was actually hard because I couldn't,
32:12there was a chance I couldn't pay the team.
32:14So that's when I had to go get a mortgage and all that.
32:16That was,
32:17again,
32:18this sucked a lot.
32:19Like the impact was,
32:20was severe,
32:21but more of like,
32:22not opportunity costs more of like foregone possibility.
32:26So this actually,
32:27I mean,
32:28I didn't plan this,
32:29but this is a good exercise in like greed versus gratitude,
32:31you know,
32:32like,
32:33so for without a doubt,
32:34it hurt us.
32:35But was I going to become a person that was like,
32:39Oh,
32:40I could have had another steak and another lobster tail.
32:43Or was I like,
32:44Hey man,
32:45like I can eat a piece of bread and be happy.
32:47You know what I mean?
32:48Like that,
32:49that I will never lose.
32:50So it sucked a lot.
32:52It's also like when I was a kid,
32:54once we got robbed and just that you feel violated,
32:58you know what I mean?
32:59You do feel like,
33:00and again,
33:01just imagine other forms of that,
33:02especially for women.
33:03And so like,
33:04to me,
33:05this was like,
33:06I'm still a superficial,
33:07but I didn't feel very much like violated type of thing.
33:09Cause it was a security and I didn't know who and why.
33:12So the paranoia,
33:13but then I was like,
33:14well,
33:15look,
33:16this was also telling the team,
33:17I go,
33:18we are high profile.
33:19You know,
33:20even after the shooting in San Bruno for YouTube,
33:21I told them,
33:22I said,
33:23look,
33:24I don't want to use the word.
33:25This was a crazy person,
33:26but this was somebody who had mental health issues who as a creator,
33:28you know,
33:29was just tired of the platform and censorship and algorithm.
33:32She decided to take a gun and go to San Bruno.
33:35It changed YouTube's outlook of their role and their responsibility,
33:39you know,
33:40with great power comes responsibility.
33:41I use this to tell the team,
33:43I know I always say we're unknown and we can't think we're hot shit or
33:46anything and let's not change that.
33:48But I was like,
33:49we are a media company.
33:50You know,
33:51that's why even like our sign at our old office,
33:53as much as I wanted a huge sign,
33:54I was like,
33:55okay,
33:56it was just to protect the team.
33:57I was like,
33:58what if one day I'm in my office?
33:59You know,
34:00I used to work with the team,
34:01but eventually as we grew,
34:02I had my little office.
34:03And the theory was there that some guy was just like,
34:05I don't like that.
34:06You guys put Assassin's Creed on this list of bad movies.
34:09That's my life,
34:10man.
34:11And he shoots five people.
34:12And I'm like,
34:14as a CXO,
34:15I think of these things,
34:16which I know sounds matching crazy,
34:17but that's,
34:18you're always worrying about these things.
34:19So it was just a lesson to kind of point to an almost an opportunity to
34:23point to,
34:24to be like,
34:25let's just realize that our vantage point is this,
34:27but this is how the world views us.
34:29We are a target of attacks.
34:31So,
34:32yeah,
34:33an unfortunate reality.
34:34So we have,
34:36we did post a poll earlier in the episode,
34:38asking what our audience thinks is the biggest reason that companies get
34:42hacked.
34:43And I believe you asked my opinion.
34:45I think,
34:46you know,
34:47hackers are always going to be advancing with the times.
34:49I think like one day,
34:50you know,
34:51we'll be using quantum computing to like hack companies and stuff like
34:54that.
34:55I don't think it's ever going to really end because as much as security
34:57improves,
34:58hackers will continue to improve too.
34:59So that's my two cents about it.
35:01What does the audience think?
35:0333% say that companies don't invest enough in,
35:06in cybersecurity,
35:08which,
35:09you know,
35:10could be an argument to be made because some companies will try to cut
35:13corners where possible.
35:15And,
35:16you know,
35:17sometimes you don't know the risks until something happens to you.
35:1933% also say hackers are always one step ahead.
35:2222% say it's often an inside job,
35:25which is,
35:26yeah,
35:27it's kind of,
35:28I don't know,
35:29high percentage for that.
35:30I think there's too many like inside hacking jobs that happen,
35:33but I could be wrong.
35:34And 11% say employee error,
35:36which I think should actually be higher because.
35:38Yeah.
35:39I mean,
35:40this was,
35:41again,
35:42an error I could have made and probably an error I've made,
35:44but this was,
35:45I think falls more here.
35:46But because you could,
35:47but to be fair,
35:48it was also,
35:49well,
35:50at the point we didn't invest not so much money because we had,
35:52it was just,
35:53we weren't forcing people to use the tools that were available.
35:55I think the main one is,
35:57you know,
35:58like the same way that an entrepreneur is not driven by money,
36:00a hacker is driven by the challenge,
36:02you know?
36:03So I think a hacker will always want to kind of prove that they could
36:06climb a taller mountain of,
36:08you know,
36:09security defenses.
36:11So I think that's really the human spirit.
36:13Now it doesn't help if like Sony,
36:15you do a movie called the dictator and attack a dictator.
36:19Right.
36:20So,
36:21yeah,
36:22no.
36:23So I'm not a bit surprised,
36:24but not wholly surprised,
36:26you know?
36:27Well,
36:28before we wrap it up,
36:29I want to talk a little bit about inside pitch.
36:31Tell me about this.
36:32This is something that you have promoted on,
36:34on LinkedIn as a tool for people to come to you with ideas.
36:37Well,
36:38so a couple of things,
36:39I get a shit ton of people looking for work.
36:42And during COVID I registered open to work dot TV,
36:45pretty good URL to have,
36:47but so busy.
36:48And so I did have this idea of like,
36:51just doing like everybody could come as a,
36:54as a person and do those three questions I asked,
36:56what are you really good at or better at than most?
36:58First of all,
36:59we're talking a little bit about open to work and then we'll come to this.
37:02And then the other one is like,
37:03what are you like the Wayne Gretzky,
37:04LeBron James,
37:05Michael Jordan,
37:06Tiger Woods,
37:07whatever,
37:08Tom Brady,
37:09like,
37:10what are you like really good at?
37:11Then the second one is like,
37:12what's your culture?
37:13You know,
37:14what kind of culture do you want?
37:15What kind of company size and all that?
37:16Like,
37:17where would you really excel?
37:18And then like,
37:19you know,
37:20what is it that you're,
37:21you really are,
37:22you know,
37:23you like you're passionate.
37:24I like to help people,
37:25but I was like,
37:26okay,
37:27I have a full time job.
37:28So I finally set up open to work dot TV,
37:30which is a way for people to,
37:32especially those that I don't know.
37:34It's easier to just be like,
37:35fold this out.
37:36And then also my team,
37:37we could look if you guys are looking for like a marketing resource,
37:40or if you're looking for like a production person who's really good with a
37:43certain equipment or whatever,
37:44you know,
37:45me,
37:46I like structured.
37:47I'm pretty chaotic,
37:48but I balance it with some structure.
37:49So once I set that up,
37:50I will not lie.
37:51I was like,
37:52okay,
37:53I don't get,
37:54I mean,
37:55I got a lot of people looking forward,
37:56but I really got a shit ton more for people looking for investment or
38:00people looking to partner with watch mojo.
38:02And again,
38:03I want to help them all,
38:04but it's like,
38:05I feel bad going up to Dick,
38:07Tom and Harry who are busy being like,
38:09Hey,
38:10this company that I don't know that I just am trying to help.
38:12And I'm just trying to be a good human being.
38:14Do you mind looking and seeing if there's a fit?
38:17Like I empathize with my,
38:18my guys and gals.
38:19They're like,
38:20fuck Ben.
38:21I'm busy.
38:22It could be great.
38:23So I did always want to build this kind of database approach so that if
38:26somebody is like,
38:27I wish we had an,
38:28uh,
38:29a partner,
38:30a vendor that could help us with this trivia initiative.
38:32I'm like,
38:33wait,
38:34go to this database,
38:35Google it,
38:36search it,
38:37and you find somebody.
38:38So it was also for watch mojo,
38:39but I get so many people and truthfully,
38:42I love investing,
38:43but I have a full-time job,
38:44but two,
38:45I did want to just relay a general feedback of why I'm very selected.
38:51And when I have this one-on-one with an investor,
38:53with an entrepreneur,
38:54even if I go,
38:55it's general human beings,
38:57they're like,
38:58this guy's talking about me.
38:59He's saying he doesn't want to do this because this is what he thinks I am,
39:02which is not true.
39:03So half of that was just getting a general update.
39:05So people could read it on LinkedIn.
39:07So it's very like opening up.
39:08It's not vis-a-vis you buddy or your company.
39:11I got turned down by a hundred.
39:12So I know it doesn't feel good.
39:14Um,
39:15but then the second one was really just to,
39:17okay,
39:19maybe we could do basically imagine after our run of inside mojo,
39:23which we could consider.
39:24There's always topics to discuss,
39:25make it more news,
39:26bring guests,
39:27um,
39:28and all that.
39:29But I was like,
39:30imagine if we had a show that was,
39:32let's go back to the,
39:33uh,
39:34the,
39:35the,
39:36the log line there.
39:37So I was like,
39:38we'll go with inside pitch pitches,
39:39a double on Tom,
39:40obviously pitching,
39:41but also like baseball.
39:42I mean,
39:43that's close to the chin type of thing.
39:44Cause part of life.
39:45And it goes back to judgment is getting feedback and giving,
39:47receiving feedback and,
39:48and,
39:49and,
39:50uh,
39:51you know,
39:52giving feedback and it's how you react.
39:53But so the idea is,
39:54uh,
39:55I'm not going to invest in your stupid startup,
39:57but you could convince me otherwise,
39:59but let's have some fun.
40:00So let's talk about it.
40:01Uh,
40:02you know,
40:03so imagine beat Bobby flay.
40:05So my idea,
40:06and I'm going to actually share it so that if people want to make it better,
40:09like my inbox is open,
40:11I'm going to have like each show,
40:13each podcast show,
40:14you know,
40:15it could eventually be on in a studio,
40:16but I don't want to wait for Hollywood.
40:18This is easy for me to do.
40:19This is a layout.
40:20So let's say the show starts and there's two contestants who come like beat
40:23Bobby flay and it might be thematic,
40:26right?
40:27Where they're kind of not going at it,
40:29but like the way you have like a lifeline,
40:31you have a stick.
40:32You could also put in the other person's wheel.
40:34So you've got to be able to have some fun,
40:36but so let's say there's two entrepreneurs or two storytellers who aren't
40:39solving something related in two different approaches.
40:42I asked him some questions and a bit like shark tank.
40:45I'm also going to,
40:46or this is more apprentice.
40:48I won't lie at first.
40:49I'm fine.
40:50If it's like three or four of us,
40:51but it just,
40:52cause I don't want to wait for people.
40:53I'm tired.
40:54I need to change this thing that I wait for others to behave a certain way.
40:59So from now on,
41:00I'm just going to do what the fuck I want,
41:02help me or get out of my way.
41:03And so the idea is,
41:04I'm going to have probably a couple of industry friends.
41:07So if some guy comes to us and he's like,
41:09I want to build a watch mojo or a complex or a hot ones,
41:12I may actually have rich founder and former CEO of complex in that show
41:18where we're going to ask questions and this and that.
41:20And then the idea is yes,
41:23a win Ben Stein's money.
41:25Either I'm open to invest.
41:26Watch mojo is open to invest.
41:28One of the guests could be open to invest.
41:30I mean,
41:31I do need to look into a bit of the law,
41:32but I don't see any issues,
41:33but I also know a shit ton of investors.
41:37So this is a fun way.
41:38And you have a conversation like shark tank.
41:41You still get exposure.
41:42I've got some,
41:44I mean,
41:45right now it's a 10 ish submissions,
41:47but I mean,
41:48as I promote this more,
41:49I think some people are like,
41:50what the hell is this?
41:51But it's meant to be fun and it's still intended to help and get feedback.
41:55But,
41:56oh,
41:57we're going to have some fun and we're going to,
41:58you know,
41:59you know,
42:00I need to go from being a masochist to a bit more of a sadist.
42:02So I won't lie.
42:03Cool.
42:04More,
42:05more power to you.
42:06Looking forward to seeing how that shapes up.
42:07Yeah.
42:08It seems like it has some potential.
42:09So,
42:10yeah,
42:11I think that pretty much does it for this week.
42:12Next week,
42:13we'll be talking about the launch of Miss Mojo and the woke era that ensued.
42:18So that'll be a little bit of a engaging episode to say the least.
42:22I think I'm sure it will be,
42:24it will not hurt anybody's feelings.
42:26That's definitely not.
42:28All right,
42:29Ash,
42:30thanks for your time.
42:31As always,
42:32thank you.
42:33Everybody who watched see next week.
42:34Cheers.
42:37Bye.
42:38Bye.
42:39Bye.
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