Madhavan Narayanan shares insights on Hindi imposition, the rupee symbol controversy, and Tamil rights in an exclusive interview. The veteran journalist delves into the political and cultural impact of language policies, the design debate over the rupee symbol, and Tamil Nadu's resistance to Hindi dominance.
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NewsTranscript
00:00First of all, three-language policies, even a two-language policy is not being followed
00:04by most North Indian states.
00:06Even English is not properly taught.
00:08DMK is, interestingly enough, not protesting.
00:11They have simply, if they were protesting, they would not have used that symbol in the
00:14English language part of that.
00:16They are highlighting the two-language policy by using a two-symbol policy.
00:21Now federalism is back on the agenda because the BJP's policy, if you look at it, not
00:26just in terms of the two-language policy, in terms of GST revenues, in terms of agriculture
00:34where there were farm laws that were withdrawn by the BJP, it doesn't matter whether it's
00:41Tamil or Hindi or, you know, whether it's Hindi or Telugu or Marathi.
00:47So there are three things that we need to understand.
00:50And therefore, we need to protest and in a symbol of protest, we use something that
00:57highlights the two-language policy.
00:58Hello viewers, today we are diving into India's one of the biggest policy debates, the national
01:04education policy and Tamil Nadu's unwavering resistance to it.
01:09To discuss this matter, today we have senior journalist Madhavan Narayanan.
01:14Welcome sir.
01:15Hello.
01:16In Tamil Nadu, today's budget, the letter, usage of letter Tamil Ru has become a topic
01:23of debate.
01:24What's your opinion on this, sir?
01:26I think it is very symbolic because actually we have to watch it carefully.
01:32Even yesterday, the budget that was presented in the English section, the DMK government
01:39continues to use the national symbol that is based on a combination of Roman and Hindi
01:46script.
01:47It's only that in the Tamil script, it is using the Tamil letter-based script.
01:55And they are very clear.
01:56They are just using it as a symbol in more ways than one.
02:00It's a symbol of protest in the context of the education policy and the three-language
02:05policy and the delimitation exercise that is being contemplated.
02:12And I think if I'm not mistaken, even in the budget documents today, it is pretty much
02:19the same.
02:20The English language, the language of the union is English as per the two-language policy
02:25that is preferred and pursued by the Tamil Nadu government.
02:30And therefore, it is logical just as you would use this.
02:34But yes, they have used the other symbol in the past and therefore, there is a reason
02:38to ask why this change and that itself is the intention of the DMK government.
02:44They want to highlight the fact that they have disagreements and differences with the
02:49government at the centre, union government on various issues.
02:54So this is political as well as symbolic.
02:58But the BJP leaders are saying that instead of using Devanagari rupee symbol, Tamil Nadu
03:04using the Tamil ru symbol, by using this, they are disrespecting India's honour and
03:10even insulting the symbol which was created by a Tamilian.
03:14So what's your take on this, sir?
03:16See, I was yesterday on a TV discussion in which the person who created the symbol, Uday
03:23Kumar Dharmalingam was himself present and he was quite composed and calm and he said
03:30his father has been a DMK MLA, but he said that, look, it is their choice.
03:34I'm still learning on that issue.
03:36He did not become angry or upset or even whine.
03:41So when the creator himself is not upset, I don't know why others should be.
03:46But I think it's becoming a matter of, again, a political tussle between the BJP and DMK.
03:52And I think the whole issue is how do you define the basis of a national symbol or honour?
04:02Because if it is Tamil Nadu under the Dravida movement in general, particularly the DMK
04:09has emphasised that India is a union of states, which is actually the first sentence in the
04:15constitution of India.
04:17So they believe in federalism, unionism, as opposed to some kind of a historic cultural
04:24approach that the BJP seems to write.
04:27If you look at it, the BJP Tamil Nadu president, Anna Malai, uses words like Bharat and Karyakarta,
04:35which are very, very, there is a vocabulary to this, which the RSS and the BJP practice.
04:43The Dravida movement, particularly DMK, likes to use an alternate vocabulary.
04:49And the fault lines lie in everything from language to education policy, whether it's
04:54a language to two-language policy that the Congress prefers, the DMK prefers.
05:01And of course, there have been other controversies, as you know, from the sharing of tax revenues
05:07and GST revenues to the so-called NEET examination, the National Entrance Test for medical students,
05:17which the Tamil Nadu government, the DMK government has been wanting more autonomy on that because
05:24they believe that Tamil Nadu students are being deprived of their opportunities.
05:28So this is part of a long story.
05:31This rupee symbol is nothing but the latest in a set of provocative confrontations, or
05:38I would call shadow boxing between the central government or union government led by the
05:43BJP and the state government led by the DMK.
05:46But then Union Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has raised the question in a recent post,
05:54saying that the rupee symbol was adopted in 2010 by the UPA government.
06:00Why didn't DMK, did not protest at that time, but now protesting against it?
06:06And she has also quoted the traditional roots of the word rupee from Sanskrit word.
06:12How do you see this?
06:14Let me say three things in this.
06:16First of all, the DMK is interestingly enough not protesting.
06:20They have simply, if they were protesting, they would not have used that symbol in the
06:23English language part of that.
06:25They are highlighting the two-language policy by using a two-symbol policy.
06:30That is one thing.
06:31The second thing is, it is in the current context that they are changing the symbol
06:37as a disagreement with the current BJP government.
06:43Now, if you go back to the two-language policy, in 1959, the then Prime Minister Jawaharlal
06:50Nehru promised to Tamil Nadu or to any other state in the non-Hindi states that Hindi will
06:56not be imposed on any state that is not ready for it.
07:00And also, English was extended indefinitely as the official language of the country under
07:05the constitution.
07:07If you look at the history, you will find that the UPA government, because it was led
07:12by the Congress, has been following the Jawaharlal Nehru formula.
07:17And so, that formula, according to the DMK, has been violated by the current Modi-led
07:26Prime Minister Narendra Modi-led BJP government.
07:28And to that extent, they calibrate the responses accordingly.
07:32So, this is a political calibration in response to a political calibration.
07:39Because the three-language policy has been around as an idea for about close to 60 years
07:45now or 55 years plus.
07:48But it has never been implemented properly in any state.
07:52So, when Tamil Nadu is confronted with a situation where the two-language policy is being sought
07:59to be indirectly violated through a three-language policy, you know, Tamil Nadu and the DMK says
08:07it is our choice whether to go for two or three.
08:10By linking central funds to two-language policy or three-language policy, you are coercing
08:19us or putting pressure on us to adopt a language policy that goes against our allowed two-language
08:27policy.
08:28And therefore, we need to protest.
08:30And in a symbol of protest, we use something that highlights the two-language policy.
08:37Now, earlier, there was no problem.
08:39And therefore, there was no protest.
08:42Symbols are only symbols.
08:44You know, it's like waving a black flag.
08:47Why do you wave a black flag?
08:48So, this is some sort of a black flag that the Tamil Nadu government has been waving
08:53at the BJP.
08:54Okay.
08:56Some people from DMK side are saying that all these actions from Tamil Nadu are a kind
09:02of retaliation to the central government for not providing Tamil Nadu its due share of
09:08funds.
09:08So, is this how a retaliation should be expressed, sir?
09:12I think I have already said this before that the DMK and the BJP have been on a confrontational
09:21path for a very long time.
09:23But I have to remind your viewers that the BJP was close to Jaila Lita.
09:32And Jaila Lita and its ADMK government withdrew support to the Vajpayee government in 1998
09:42and that is widely regarded as a reason for the BJP government, you know, staging the
09:50nuclear tests and program to fortify itself politically.
09:54And after that, there was a honeymoon period between the BJP and the DMK under Vajpayee.
10:04But ideologically, the Dravida movement, which has been led by Periyar, Riviar and later
10:12Anna Durai and later Karunanidhi and the RSS, which has its origins, you know, even Congress
10:21leaders during independence movement, some of them like Madan Mohan Malviya practiced
10:26what is called the one nation, one language policy.
10:30So, you know, RSS used to say Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan, which is that Hindi as a language,
10:38Hinduism as a religion and Hindustan as a place of the Hindus is what we believe in.
10:43So, there is a history to this where the Dravida movement was opposed to this whole thing.
10:51But as the DMK emerged as a political party of significance in the 1960s,
10:56Hindi imposition became an important issue on which the DMK wrote to power under C. N. Anna
11:02Durai. And that was ideologically a challenging thing. It was a matter of principle and policy.
11:13It wasn't about individuals. It was about a whole movement. And therefore, to a lot of things,
11:22including share of, you know, tax revenues, there has been a confrontational path. Now,
11:28who's confronting whom is a big question. As journalists, we have to ask, I mean, why,
11:34you know, we are a federal republic, you know, we call it a union of states, we can argue on the
11:40degree of the federal powers under the constitution. Even education, which is currently being hotly
11:48debated, was under the state list till the emergency. Now, BJP didn't like the emergency,
11:55but they haven't removed the emergency provision of 42nd Amendment provision of education and the
12:02concurrent list as against the state list. So, everybody likes to wield power at the central
12:09level. Therefore, the BJP has been using its powers to push its own agenda directly or indirectly.
12:16And there has been a century old mistrust between the Dravida movement and the RSS movement.
12:27And whatever you're happening or you see happening are episodes in a very long political soap opera,
12:35I would say. But union ministers like Dharmendra Pradhan, Amit Shah and all other BJP leaders
12:44are saying that the three-language policy doesn't mandate learning Hindi, but that
12:51anyone can choose any language. How Tamil Nadu should understand this, sir?
12:56I think it's a very good question. You know, it's like cricket. I use the analogy of cricket to
13:01explain certain things. How do you define whether the ball is a white ball or not? You know,
13:08you know, do you play the white ball or not? So, BJP thinks this is a white ball or it thinks it's
13:16a no ball. Now, because you cross a certain line. Now, who defines the line? DMK says two-language
13:23policy is the line. The moment you cross it into three languages, it doesn't matter which language
13:28you're coming in. It doesn't matter whether it's Tamil or Hindi or, you know, whether it's Hindi
13:36or Telugu or Marathi. So, there are three things that we need to understand. First of all,
13:41three-language policy is simple. Even the two-language policy is not being followed by
13:46most North Indian states. Even English is not properly taught. And the Hindi is spoken. And
13:52the third language, you take a road trip from Haryana to Bihar to UP and you will find that
14:02no government school teaches any Indian language apart from Hindi. Or if there are,
14:07then there are no teachers. I mean, it's just on paper. So, that is one thing that
14:13shows that the BJP has to first practice what it teaches in the states where it's in power,
14:20so that it can lead by example. That is one important aspect. So, the no ball syndrome
14:27works in many ways. At the practical level, say, the DMK can say, you've not done it in those
14:34states. How can you ask us? And second thing is, once you take that no ball line, that I am the
14:42one defining the no ball. You know, federalism is about who draws the line. It's not just about the
14:47line. You know, it is, women understand it very easily. It's like consent. It's for the woman to
14:56decide whether there is consent. So, there is a co-optional element. So, you cannot, you know,
15:03I was joking, you know, this is the Kabir Singh approach to, Arjun Reddy approach to federalism,
15:10where the man assumes that a woman should do this and, you know, takes a dominating position.
15:16So, that is one thing that is nuanced enough for us to understand. Federalism is,
15:25you can take a downside up version of federalism and the top-down approach to co-option.
15:33And the BJP has been using a certain approach where it's, to use a cricketing analogy,
15:40it's using a balling run-up that is controversial from the point of view of many states. The
15:45delimitation is even more controversial. So, these are issues on which political debate is needed.
15:52And what the DMK is doing is nothing but trigger this political debate. It's an open question on
15:57what the people of Tamil Nadu really want. You know, elections are due next year. A lot can be
16:04gauged from the electoral mood. There are lots of political details that are relevant here within
16:11the Tamil Nadu politics or elections. And my broad belief is that after the demise of Jaya
16:21Lalitha and the decline of the AADMK, the BJP is very keen to find its foothold in Tamil Nadu,
16:29as well as, just like is in Bengal. So, some of the issues it raises directly as a political party
16:37and indirectly as a ruling party of the central government through policies. It's a policy-led
16:42approach to politics. Whereas the DMK wants a politics-led approach to policy.
16:49Okay. Coming to delimitation and national education policy, DMK has called for a meeting.
16:56DMK party members are going beyond Tamil Nadu and meeting leaders from Karnataka,
17:05Telangana and all others and have called for a meeting to discuss about delimitation and NEP
17:11critics. Is Tamil Nadu positioning itself in a broader way as a counterweight to BJP's national
17:19agenda, sir? If so, how will it benefit DMK as a party for a longer run? And for Tamil Nadu,
17:26how will it benefit, sir? I don't know about the benefit part. Let me explain the
17:32political situation. See, as far as Hindi is concerned, although many southern states
17:39don't really want Hindi, they're not, you know, they're not bothered. It's not a big political
17:44issue because the DMK actually came to power in the 60s on the basis of an anti-Hindi agitation
17:50and a lot of people sacrificed their lives. So, I have said in a TV debate that
17:54Hindi as a political issue is as important to the DMK as Ayodhya's temple is to the BJP.
18:02So, but it is very somewhat isolated on that issue when it comes to federalism,
18:09unlike delimitation in which if you notice even former Orissa chief minister Naveen Patnaik
18:15is now ready to play ball with the DMK. So, DMK has many other supporters
18:22among state chief ministers. It's important to remember that after the last national elections,
18:28the India alliance led by the Congress or which appeared to be led by the Congress
18:33has been on a back burner and DMK is facing elections next year. So, it is natural for
18:41the DMK to enlist as much support as possible among states to emphasize its case for federalism.
18:49And my simple contention to your question on benefits is that politics is ultimately
18:56is about power and power is formed by solidarities, alliances, mass movements and
19:03campaigns in a democracy. So, all these initiatives by the DMK and the government
19:11in Tamil Nadu are part of an attempt to muster support from various states where the BJP is
19:19weak or not so strong or where there is a significant opposition to the BJP.
19:25So, to that extent, it's not only what you call happening, it is a necessity for the DMK.
19:32And therefore, DMK can potentially become a nucleus for a federalist movement in India,
19:39which has been, if you look at the past 30 years, there was an implied federalism in the 1990s when
19:47National Front under VP Singh and United Front under Deva Gowda were in power. But the NDA was
19:55countered by the UPA in 2004. So, Congress has been tamed from an authoritarian party into a
20:04more federalist party, which is why they call it the United Progressive Alliance, UPA. And to that
20:10extent, the federalism was on the back burner. Now, federalism is back on the agenda because
20:16the BJP's policy, if you look at it, not just in terms of the two language policy, in terms of GST
20:24revenues, in terms of agriculture, where there were farm laws that were withdrawn by the BJP,
20:31in terms of the one nation, one election rule, there has been a lot of initiatives by the BJP
20:38that kind of erodes the agency of the states in many cases, either politically or culturally or
20:47administratively. And to that extent, the DMK will find more support in other states wherever this
20:53happens. Apart from this, the perspective of Tamil Nadu in three language policy and Hindi
21:01imposition here, when seen in BJP's perspective, is BJP playing a kind of role where in Hindi
21:11speaking states, like we are, actually we are fighting for Hindi, like portraying a role like,
21:20portraying a role in the Hindi speaking states that we are fighting for Hindi. Is it creating
21:25an image like sort of thing, sir? No, the BJP wants to have the, you know,
21:30as they say, the saying goes, BJP wants to eat the cake and have it too. If you look at the
21:34incidents surrounding some of the events that happened in Tirupur last year, there were some
21:41Bihari workers who were apparently involved in some violence that spread the story or narrative
21:49in Bihar that Biharis are not being treated well in Tamil Nadu, because Tamil Nadu is economically
21:56now a very advanced state by Indian standards. And you have people working in cities like
22:02Coimbatore, Chennai and Tirupur who are from Nepal and Assam and Bihar. And BJP has historically
22:11played with a certain amount of, you know, it's I would call playing, flirting with a certain
22:20linguistic, not chauvinism, maybe a too tough a word, some kind of a linguistic identity issue.
22:28It plays on the margins. But at the same time, in Tamil Nadu, it wants to be seen as an inclusive,
22:33multilingual, multicultural party. So, whatever they do is to actually they use the small band of
22:41policy, you know, action, where they do certain things that help them officially stay on this
22:48side of the line, but unofficially the party carders locally try to play on sentiments.
22:54It is not a very successful formula so far, but BJP does try that. But they want to be very
23:04national in a very orthodox conservative trend of the term. You know, I call the BJP as a
23:10reluctant, reluctantly federalist party. They are not federalist by DNA.
23:17DMK is federalist by DNA. So, the friction will remain.
23:23One last question. In today's budget, Finance Minister Thangam Theneresa has stated that
23:29even when the central government's share around 2000 crore for education sector is not
23:35allocated to Tamil Nadu, we ourselves will allocate the same 2000 crore to the education
23:40sector. So, out of all the financial burdens, all this, how will the government manage to
23:47allocate itself? I don't think it's a big amount,
23:50honestly speaking. In fact, I have a very simple position, which is both BJP and DMK are using this
23:57for political campaigns. And, you know, if the BJP wants, it can always say we are giving this
24:04money to the people of Tamil Nadu. We won't give it to the government of Tamil Nadu. We are happy
24:09to allocate that portion to buy some other device to, let's say, CBSE schools or private schools.
24:18Game is over. Similarly, DMK may or may not do what it wants. But, you know,
24:25it is not only the language issue. The DMK is also very keen to show that economically,
24:32in spite of contributing a lot of money to the central kitty, it is not getting back enough in
24:38return. You know, in federalism, especially with the Indian model of social justice,
24:43social justice includes justice for underprivileged states. So, you can always say
24:48Bihar deserves a bit more based on the principles of social justice.
24:52But on the other hand, you may say Congress, Tamil Nadu deserves more on the basis of
24:58federalism or justice. Just to give you some statistics, Tamil Nadu accounts for,
25:05what, 9% of India's GDP by only 6% of the population. So, it's a 3% surplus that is
25:16being transferred to other states, you can say, if you're looking at population as a,
25:21you know, contribution to kitty as a proportion of the GDP as a criteria. So, to that extent,
25:30DMK wants to politicize the idea that it is Tamil Nadu's money that is being taken to other states.
25:40It is, it helps build a narrative, just as the three language policy and the use of national
25:46symbols helps BJP build a narrative. So, it is essentially a battle of the narratives.
25:52What really matters is what the people of Tamil Nadu think about this, and how important they
25:58think Hindi imposition as an issue is or not. Honestly speaking, Hindi is not that big an issue
26:08either way for the people of Tamil Nadu. I'm clear on that. But yeah, if you really go into
26:15the nuances of Tamil Nadu's policy, you have a policy and politics, you have new parties like
26:21the Namthamar Karchi. And I have a feeling that this making Hindi an issue will transfer some
26:28votes from the Namthamar Karchi to DMK. This is my assessment based on my current information.
26:34I'm still watching the situation. But if that is the case, then DMK can hope to pat itself on the
26:39back. But on the other hand, if simply, you know, a certain amount of financial and upward mobility
26:51is the issue, maybe the other policy measures that the BJP promises, we'll have to watch that,
26:58particularly because BJP has a lot of groundwork to do in Tamil Nadu, because I don't think it can
27:05survive on its own. So, it is leaning on PMK, Patalimakkal Karchi and even AIADMK under
27:13Edapadi Parnaswamy is not playing ball with the BJP. So, the BJP is trying very hard. I think
27:21my own cynical observation is the BJP likes the idea of using Tamil Nadu to score points in the
27:27North. That is one way of looking at it. Thank you for joining us and sharing your
27:36views with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure.