Bennie Thompson Presses GAO Official On 'Vulnerability' Created At DHS From Mass Layoffs

15 hours ago

During a House Homeland Security Committee hearing Tuesday, Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS) spoke about mass layoffs at DHS.

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Transcript

00:00yields. I now recognize Ranking Member Thompson for his five minutes. Thank you very much,

00:05Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kerr, how long have you been with the GAO? It will be 23 years in June.

00:15That's a compliment on that. How long have you been looking at DHS and its programs?

00:24About 22 of those years. Thank you. If you looked at DHS at this point

00:33and there had to be a reduction in force, what would you expect? How would that process play out?

00:44Well, it's a challenge because there's not a mission in DHS that's not critical,

00:50which is very unique. I think it would be hard to balance between, is cyber security more

00:55important than disaster assistance? It's not. Each of their missions is critical. I think that

01:01what you'd have to look at is what are the agencies expected to do and what are they

01:06expected to deliver? For example, with FEMA, 100 or more disasters a year, 600 total disasters

01:13they're managing. What do our communities and our survivors expect from them? Then,

01:18what sort of numbers of people do we need to deliver that assistance? Right now, for example,

01:24with FEMA, they can't keep their head above water with delivering what we expect them to deliver.

01:30Well, thank you. You mentioned FEMA and what's the other agency you mentioned too?

01:37Oh, I think cyber security, CISA. Okay. If I told you that

01:42there have been hundreds of FEMA employees and CISA employees

01:52summarily told to leave without evaluation, without a plan, or anything of that nature,

02:04have you seen that? Well, we know that there have been dismissals of

02:12employees. Yes. Are you aware of any kind of a reduction in force plan or dismissal plan

02:24for the employees that are currently being discharged at FEMA or CISA? I haven't seen

02:32any plan like that. I do know that some of these reductions have been based on

02:36are for newer or probationary employees. That's about the extent of the grouping that I'm aware of.

02:43Well, when you say probationary employees, define that for the committee.

02:48Well, that could be people that are new to FEMA or it could be people that are new to their

02:53particular position. If I told you that there were employees who've been with the agency

02:59for 10 years, got promoted to another position, and all of a sudden they are considered

03:07probationary, is that consistent with normal personnel policies and procedures?

03:14Not normally. I'd want to know where they work and what their actual performance was. That's

03:21an important part, their performance every year, and then also what specific area they work in

03:27to know whether that is something that would have an impact on the mission or not.

03:31If I told you there are hundreds of employees at FEMA and CISA who've been discharged,

03:42who evaluations say they've been excellent employees?

03:51I would have concerns over that, and not just from the immediate mission, but

03:56from hiring new employees as well. Whatever reductions are made, there's going to have to

04:03be some people, federal employees, that deliver the services. I'm concerned mostly with FEMA

04:10being able to deliver the mission that we expect it to deliver.

04:14If I told you that CISA employees have a critical mission, they have to maintain

04:24our cyber hygiene for government, and that we have people who are being discharged,

04:33and now that agency is losing its capacity to do what its mission calls for,

04:43that that creates a vulnerability by letting those people go.

04:48In the area of cyber security, particularly in CISA, we've spent the last 10 years trying to

04:57get DHS the authorities it needs to bring on board people with those skill sets because they

05:02don't always want to work for government. They can make a lot more money outside.

05:06With regard to cyber security specialists, yes, I'm concerned about losing that talent

05:12and then being able to recruit the talent we need to address the threat we face.

05:16I yield back, Mr Chairman.

Bennie Thompson Presses GAO Official On 'Vulnerability' Created At DHS From Mass Layoffs

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