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00:00Meanwhile, President Volodymyr Zelensky is gearing up to visit the White House Friday
00:03to ink a minerals deal with the US.
00:06The two sides appear to have patched up their differences following public pushback from
00:11Kyiv.
00:12The government is now saying it's given its agreement after Washington backed off on its
00:16controversial demand for Ukraine to hand over $500 billion worth of revenue from its mineral
00:22resources to the United States.
00:25Charlotte Lamb has more now on the terms of the deal.
00:29We're one step closer to potential agreement.
00:32US President Donald Trump says Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky will visit the White House Friday
00:37to sign a critical minerals deal.
00:39And we're going to be signing an agreement which will be a very big agreement and I want
00:43to thank Howard and Scott for the job you guys did in putting it together.
00:49Key details have not been made public, but Zelensky says he is still seeking security
00:53guarantees.
00:55This agreement could be part of the future security guarantees, but I want to make sure
01:00an agreement is an agreement.
01:02We need to understand the broader vision, what lies next for Ukraine, where we are in
01:06all of this.
01:08This deal is at the heart of Kyiv's attempt to gain support from the US.
01:13It would see Ukraine contribute half the future revenues from its natural resources to a fund,
01:18in which the US would own the maximum interest allowed by its own domestic law.
01:23Ukraine has 100 major deposits, including 20 out of the 50 minerals considered critical
01:28to the US economy, most of whose production is currently dominated by China.
01:34Among them, titanium, lithium, uranium and significant reserves of rare earth minerals.
01:41Many of those rare earth deposits, though, lie in territory already captured by Russia.
01:45Trump says he's not opposed to dealing with Moscow on future mineral deals.
01:50Outside the US embassy in Kyiv, activists are protesting the potential deal.
01:58These anti-Trump signs imply Trump is on Putin's side.
02:04It's not right to blackmail the country at war and force it to sign any deal that is
02:08not economically beneficial.
02:13Many say an agreement can only be signed once Russia's aggression stops.
02:19Let's speak more on this.
02:21Mark Timinsky, who is a non-resident fellow at the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Centre,
02:26joins us now.
02:27Mark, it's great to have you.
02:29Thanks so much for joining us on the programme.
02:30We're still in the dark about the final details of this deal.
02:34We know that there's this joint fund that's going to be set up, but the deal doesn't,
02:38of course, include any security guarantees.
02:41Tell us in your view, do you think Kyiv is being short-changed here?
02:47Thank you again for having me.
02:48It's a pleasure to be back on France 24.
02:50That is something that a lot of Ukrainians back in Ukraine are very concerned about,
02:54where the United States says that it's very interested in the mineral deposits and reserves
02:59that the Ukrainians have, which has equated some news outlets to, say, tens of trillions
03:04of dollars worth of material and things that they can mine.
03:09But the Ukrainians don't see anything in return.
03:11Yes, the United States has claimed that the Ukrainians and the United States would work
03:15together to create some sort of reconstruction fund.
03:19But there's nothing there in the current deals that we know of where there are security guarantees
03:25or discussions about the United States continuing to provide defence equipment to the Ukrainians
03:30to ensure that they can protect themselves from an ongoing Russian attack.
03:34So currently, it is very odd why the Ukrainians would pursue such a deal with the United States.
03:40Well, the US has very much portrayed this as being, you know, a deal where it's going
03:44to make lots of money from, it's going to get a lot of resources through.
03:50But these minerals, getting them will be a hard and expensive process, won't they?
03:56Yes, certainly.
03:58First of all, a lot of the minerals and resources that are available are in the occupied territories
04:04that Russia illegally has control over in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine.
04:09Second of all, a lot of this infrastructure does not yet exist and that will cost a lot
04:13of money to build what is required in order to refurbish equipment that they have and
04:18then start mining and pulling out these resources in the area.
04:22So it's very unclear how this deal would go forward.
04:25And you mentioned that, you know, that many of these mineral deposits are located in areas
04:31occupied by Russia.
04:33Tell us how you think that Washington and Kiev are going to navigate that.
04:38Russia has said that it's willing to give the US access to those mineral reserves in
04:44exchange for Washington dropping sanctions that it's put against Moscow.
04:51Tell us how you think Washington is going to navigate the sort of complication with
04:56Russia owning parts of Ukraine.
05:01Russia is trying to be very assertive in the statement, saying that this is territory
05:09that is not legally theirs, it's still part of Ukraine.
05:12And by coming up with some sort of agreement with the Russians for minerals in the Russian
05:16occupied areas of eastern Ukraine, that would effectively acknowledge Ukrainian territory
05:22as being seized by Russians and the Russians should not be rewarded for this horrible war
05:26that they began not only in 2022 with the full scale invasion.
05:30But the illegal annexation of Crimea in the spring of 2014, as well as the attacks that
05:36occurred in the Donbas shortly afterwards.
05:39The United States is working closely with Ukraine, as there have been reports recently
05:44that President Zelensky himself himself will be in the United States this coming Friday
05:49to discuss the deal further and come up with the final areas within the deal.
05:55And Zelensky said that he still wants some sort of other possibility to ensure that Ukraine
06:04would be protected from the Russians and the Ukrainians continue to their allies to work
06:11together because they should not be treating Russia as some sort of equal partner, as the
06:16Russians are capable of doing a lot of atrocities in these areas and they're responsible for
06:21the war.
06:22And the Russians should not be rewarded with some sort of financial agreement or making
06:27additional income from Ukrainian territory because they illegally took it over.
06:32Mark, we are having some connection issues, but we're going to try and push through with
06:36you.
06:37I wanted to ask you, do you feel that this sets a precedent?
06:41Do you think going forward, we're going to see, you know, not just Ukraine, but Europe
06:45and NATO likely to get less security guarantees from the US if it doesn't offer something
06:52in return like financial compensation?
06:55Do you think this is a trend we're likely to see going forward from the Trump administration?
07:02The Ukrainians are treading lightly as they understand that the Trump administration with
07:07Vice President Pence as well, and that the aid to Ukraine has been expensive.
07:13They want to repay American taxpayers for the amount of money that has been provided
07:18to the Ukrainians.
07:19It's very important to state that of the $175 billion that the United States has provided
07:25to Ukraine during the three year period, only $75 billion of that aid has been sent to Ukraine.
07:30A lot of those are weapons that the United States no longer uses.
07:33So of the $100 billion that is on paper, that's actually being used within the United States
07:38to help employ Americans and refurbish American stockpiles, helping with acquisition within
07:47the United States.
07:49The Ukrainians have also pushed that not only do they want security guarantees, but they
07:52also want to ensure that economic penalties and other forms of sanctions remain within
07:57Russia so that if sanctioned immediately, it would not allow Russia to continue attacking
08:06and that would be another type of buffer to put on the Russians at this time.
08:10And more widely, I think-
08:11The European Union is also exploring ways-
08:14Please go on, please go on.
08:15Sorry?
08:16Please go on.
08:17The European Union is also exploring how they can use Russian seized assets because
08:22they're concerned that the United States is starting to pull away its support for Ukraine.
08:27Of course, no one is certain how things will unfold after this deal is signed, but they're
08:31looking for other contingency plans in case the United States starts to slowly tread away
08:35from the European continent.
08:37And just one last question for you.
08:39I think it can be argued that we're slowly seeing this shift away from an international
08:45rules-based order.
08:47We're seeing Washington moving away from this moral stand against Russia.
08:54It's doing that in favor of more transactional diplomacy, I think it can be argued.
09:00Tell us what sort of impact you feel that this sort of shift is going to have now.
09:05It puts a lot of questions into alliances that currently exist where it's based through
09:11diplomacy and international norms and doing the moral right thing.
09:16And now it seems that in some capacity there are trade agreements where someone is becoming
09:22a client state and no longer being held on a certain level of relations with these countries.
09:30And also we're seeing a shift in how the United Nations resolution recently voted against
09:35the ongoing Russian aggression and trying to determine how to maintain this international
09:41world order.
09:42Because if the Russians are allowed to maintain the territory that they have in Ukraine, then
09:47at that point international norms and rules no longer matter because then authoritarians
09:52can do whatever they want to without consequence.
09:54Mark, it was great to get your insight.
09:57Thanks so much for joining us on the program.
09:58We did have those connection issues, but we pushed through and got to the end of that
10:03interview.
10:04Thank you so much for joining us.
10:05Thank you again for having me.