Join Phil, James and Martyn for analysis of week 3 of the Six Nations
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World's Rugby Union Kick and Chase podcast. It's a show
00:09where we break down the latest results from the Six Nations and look ahead to the next
00:12round of fixtures. I'm your host Martin Simpson, delighted to say I'm once again joined by
00:17Phil Bramley and James Copley. We're going to dive right into the action from round three
00:22and looking ahead to previewing round four. So we'll start off with the first match of
00:27round four, kicks off on Saturday the 8th of March, Ireland against France. Phil, Ireland,
00:35this looks like, with respect to Italy, who we'll get on to later, looks like the last
00:38sort of hurdle on their way to another Grand Slam. Yeah, I mean, but Wales certainly gave
00:46them a bit of a run for their money, didn't they? After all we talked about, we all sat
00:53here last week and kind of said, yeah, it's a complete blowout. You know, it could be
00:57a bit of a horror show. Wales absolutely restored pride in the jersey. And ironically, as we'll
01:04get on to when we talk about the England-Scotland game, a lot of happy faces in defeat for the
01:10Welsh fans because they've absolutely found their feet. And then ironically, just because
01:14there hasn't been enough rugby on this weekend, I watched the under-20s and that was a hell
01:19of a game for them as well, when they actually did manage to snatch victory from the jaws
01:24of defeat. So things are definitely looking up for Wales. And Ireland, you know, I think
01:30will be quietly confident that they did enough. Obviously they had a bit of a scare, but great
01:37teams finding a way to win, even with that 20-minute red card. And Bungiaki came on and
01:42was an absolute monster. Yeah, James, just on Wales. So I guess it turns out Warren Gatland
01:49was the problem all along. Yeah, who'd have thought that playing positions, players in
01:55the natural positions would work alongside their club teammates as well. I think Matt
02:01Chirratt did the right thing. He went for connections all over the pitch and familiarity.
02:05He said he wanted to take away the fear from the jersey and from playing for Wales. And
02:09job well done, really. Wales, as a nation, sort of do well when they end up victorious,
02:14losers. And that definitely feels like what happened. It was a great effort, to be honest.
02:20And yeah, you know, we've talked about Warren Gatland a lot on this podcast and, you know,
02:26he knows quite a lot about rugby, but you do sort of think, what was he doing with some
02:30of his selection? I mean, I have to cast my mind back a long way to think of a 10 coming
02:38in to start in the Six Nations that wasn't in the original squad, but that reason wasn't
02:43injury, like he's come completely in from the cold. It just doesn't happen, doesn't it?
02:47And you don't usually see coaching changes during a Six Nations, so it's felt very bizarre.
02:52But anyway, the green shoots recovery seem to be there. And it just goes to show what's
02:58been said all along about Warren Gatland is that, yes, there are these systemic problems
03:02in Wales. However, that Wales team should and could have been doing better. And it's
03:07good to see that they're now on the up. In terms of Ireland, they are such a good rugby team.
03:13They've got so many different facets to the game. The fact that they could withstand that,
03:17Phil mentioned Bundiaki coming off the bench, absolutely ridiculous. I think he's been
03:20ridiculous all tournament, to be honest. He's just an insane rugby player. And it's a mouth-watering
03:26contest, isn't it, against France? I'd probably back Ireland, but I could see France winning it
03:30as well. And there's an argument that if Ireland go and get a slam, the second in three tournaments
03:37and then the third Six Nations tournament on the bounce, are they then the best team in the Six
03:43Nations era that have competed in it? There's a compelling case that it could be the best team
03:47ever. I mean, you could bring in maybe the 2003 England team that went on to win the World Cup.
03:52But if you're just judging it on Six Nations, then it could be Ireland. So there's a lot riding on
03:57and yeah, it makes for an interesting game because I thought France against Italy were
04:03mesmeric at times, although Sean Edwards might have been pulling his hair out a little bit at
04:07some of the tries conceded. Then obviously, maybe normally you'd be talking about Wales having that
04:15man advantage for the 20 minutes that they did. But really, I don't feel like you want to be
04:21overly critical of Wales there. You really want to just praise Ireland for dealing with that in
04:26the fashion that they did. I think so. And I think actually I would praise the game generally,
04:32the rules and the implementation of them and the referees, because I thought even the things that
04:36didn't go against, that didn't go for Wales, like the try, you know, screaming at the telly,
04:41though it wasn't the time right at the end to try like that. That's the right decision. It was a
04:46knock on. They got it absolutely right. The whole crowd knew and that communication was really
04:50effective. So yeah, I think it was just generally a good game and a good spectacle all around,
04:56wasn't it? In terms of the six nations, it was a good advert for the game. I do think perhaps
05:01we're obsessed with rugby in rugby with Sean, like head on, head on, head on, head collisions
05:07at like slow motion. I do think we saw a lot of that, didn't we? And I get that it needs to be
05:12explained why there was a red card, perhaps as well going into games. And this is just a note
05:16on the general sort of coverage, that yellow card red card rule is very new, isn't it? And I think
05:21it possibly could be explained because I think there will have been a lot of people confused
05:25as to why Ireland were allowed to bring another man onto the pitch. Then it was yellow card and
05:29then it was upgraded to a red card, but Ireland weren't down to 15 men for the majority. So I
05:34think maybe in terms of that, there's a little bit more explaining to do because it can be confusing,
05:38but I thought it was an excellent weekend all around for rugby. It was a great spectacle.
05:44Yeah, I have to say I was always pretty clear in my head, but I was watching this from the
05:49media room at Twickenham ahead of the Scotland game. I was watching this and there was a few
05:53people who didn't quite understand. It was after the 20 minute, it was, can the Ireland player come
05:58back on? It's like, no, he can't come on, but they can replace him with a substitution. And I believe
06:04the reason for it is because there's so much focus on player wealth there. And the argument was made
06:10that playing as some teams have had to do in the Six Nations quite recently before this new rule,
06:16playing 75 minutes of rugby a man down can be quite dangerous almost, especially if you're
06:25in certain positions like you're a fullback who now has to cover wing and fullback or you're
06:29a centre or a back row or whatever. And obviously it's much, it creates an extra level of
06:35taxing this on the front row as well, because you're then having to rethink all of your,
06:41how you manage your substitutions. You probably go in with a clear plan of
06:45I'm replacing my front row at this minute in the game, unless something happens to change
06:52your decision. And then suddenly you're a man down and you have to be much more clever. I just
06:57have to totally rethink how you're going to do that. But I like the rule in general, the 20 minute
07:02red card. I think it does because I think we've probably all at some point been watching a game,
07:09seeing a red card early, and you're just thinking, well, this is really kind of ruined a lot of the
07:15spectacle now because that man advantage for an entire match in a game of rugby is so...
07:21And Wales have suffered from that over the years, just thinking of World Cup semifinals. So it would
07:27be very hypocritical now with me to turn around and go, well, Wales should have had that advantage
07:33for the whole game. Yes, without wanting to go down a rabbit hole with it, it doesn't seem to
07:37be changing behaviour. So whether or not it's actually working or not, it's a bit of a moot
07:39point. And I know there's been some talk about actually the idea of this temporary red card
07:45means that it punishes the player, not the team. And I know Sam Walton has kind of come out and
07:49said what needs to happen now is lengthier bans for individuals, which may change behaviour because
07:54the yellow cards and the 20 minute red cards don't seem to be changing behaviours of the players on
08:00the pitch. Do you think it's, do you not think, Phil Lewis, those head-on-head collisions,
08:05just thinking of the one particularly at the weekend, it's so hard at speed, we see them in
08:10slow motion to, to change that behaviour. I'm often, it's, it's almost at times hard to be angry
08:17at some of the offending players. Don't get me wrong. There's, there's some way you think
08:20that's ridiculous and maybe a couple of Owen Farrells over the years that you've thought right.
08:24Yeah. It's not quite what you said, those state of origin games where you're kind of thinking, wow.
08:30Yeah, exactly. But that one of the weekend, I just thought, ah, like that's, that's unfortunate
08:34that that's happened. And they're both, they're upright, but not upright at the same time.
08:39But then it sort of comes back to the whole point, because the introduction of these cards was
08:43to change behaviour. And I'm with you. I think a lot of these are phrased as rugby incidents.
08:47I don't think for one second he was trying to hurt him. You know, it's going in, the people
08:51are making massive split second changes, decisions that they've got to make at pace with people
08:57flying around. But you can't do it both ways. Either we're trying to, we've introduced this
09:00to change behaviour, but then we're saying it isn't going to change behaviour because it's not,
09:03I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The state of origin game comes up. I take it. We're all thinking of
09:11Joseph Suwale on, on Reese Walsh, his last game in rugby league.
09:17I don't like watching that back, but I do like the reaction of what do you mean? That's a red card.
09:23But yeah, like you said, I don't think there's any, when you can see it's clearly just
09:28poor technique and there's no real malice in what they're doing. Then again, yeah,
09:33I don't think the team as a whole should be punished for that. But if one player does go
09:38out and just quite clearly you see them, the sort of deliberate shoulder towards head motion, which
09:44James said, but I'll echo it, which Farrell sort of became synonymous with for a while.
09:49These ones are in a different ballpark. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah. I think it's a weird one
09:57because it's for Wales, just overall really positive in defeat. Cause like, so we were all
10:04just expecting a blowout and Wales did exactly what they had to. I think exactly what I said
10:09last week, they didn't need to win that game. They just needed to show that they could win that game
10:17and that this wasn't like, well, we're starting the match and it was like watching Italy in the
10:23mid 2010s or Scotland in the early 2010s or where it's like, there's little point in playing this
10:31match. It's just going to be a bonus point win to the other team. Yeah. And they've got
10:36targeted a win now as well. Hope like they've got to try it easier said than done because the
10:40opposition that's coming up for Wales, you know, it's, it's, it's not easy though. There aren't any
10:45easy six, six nations games anymore. And they've already been beaten by arguably the other weakest
10:51team apart from Wales, which is Italy. So they've, they've got a tough task coming up, but you know,
10:56Scotland perhaps will come onto them, but given their loss to England, where are they at mentally?
11:01You never know. You just never know. Yeah. So let's dive into after Wales, Ireland, we had
11:06the Calcutta cup clash with that trophy going back to Twickenham for the first time in five years.
11:13And Phil, I'll, I'll let you start before I unburden myself.
11:20Do, did England deserve to win that? I mean, they won it, so they did deserve to win it, but did
11:26England, I'm going to, I'm going to quote Napoleon as I'm, as I'm going to do, who always said that
11:33I'd rather have a lucky general than a good one. And in this case, you know, you can, England
11:38definitely rode their luck. The flip side of that is that they come out on the wrong side of that,
11:42you know, over the last 12 months with lots of games that they could have won and, you know,
11:45they didn't quite. Well, we'll talk about Scotland, England shortly. Right now, we're just going to
11:51take a very quick. And in this case, you know, you can, England definitely rode their luck.
12:09The flip side of that is that they come out on the wrong side of that, you know, over the last 12
12:13months with lots of games that they could have won. And, you know, they didn't quite to your point
12:17about Wales not needing the win, but needing performance. England needed the win, not the
12:21performance. And they just had to get that extra W. I still think it has, to some extent, papered
12:26over the cracks a little bit with England. They, they really showed very little in attack, which
12:31is, it's, it almost feels like we've gone back to those farrell days where it would go pot up,
12:37pot up, nothing's happening. Even if there was a massive overlap on the outside, let's just kick
12:39the ball and play down their 22. And I understand this desire about not playing too much in your own
12:45half in that middle third, but it just seems really weird that that kind of the percentage
12:50of kick to pass ratio that England had, that they were basically kicking the ball less than three
12:53passes was causing them all sorts of kind of problems when they didn't need to kind of find
12:58themselves in those situations. And yeah, I think, I think there was some positives. I thought the
13:03scramble defence was immense and that when Scotland tried to come to the middle of them, you know,
13:07they knocked them back and, you know, there's some good individual performances. I still think that,
13:12unfortunately, you know, Marcus Smith doesn't look particularly comfortable defending at 15.
13:19I think he's great going forward and he's definitely, you know, a better option from
13:22Stewart. I think personally, if Fairbanks fit for the next match for me, he slots in and maybe
13:27Smith drops to the bench. That will be an interesting one to see. And again, the other
13:32thing that kind of mystifies you, you look at the number of those Northampton players in that
13:34backline who were absolutely electric for the Saints and look turgid for England, look like,
13:38you know, that they're not going to get a chance, but then how often did Freeman get his hands
13:42on the ball other than getting over the line? I'm sure you'll discuss that in a minute. But
13:47England, again, seem to don't play to their strengths. And occasionally that they have,
13:52you know, I thought Lawrence had a good game and when he busted the middle and looked like that
13:56flows, they were good, but there just didn't seem to be any really attacking intent. That said,
14:01they got the win. And probably right now, that's more important than anything, because
14:05we've got back-to-back wins for the first time in God knows how long. And Scotland will definitely
14:10be kicking themselves because they played all the rugby, but didn't come away with that
14:13Calcutta Cup. And with the remaining fixtures, a real chance of winning the title.
14:21Even if France do be Ireland, we're not expecting France to really, you know, push Ireland to one
14:27side. And you kind of feel like Ireland, if they lose that are going to pick up a losing bonus
14:31point. There's a lot of permutations. And I think England's what is England's points difference?
14:38I think it's still minus. Yeah. It's certainly not on, nowhere on earth they're going to catch
14:41France, you know, I mean, looking at what happened at the weekend. So yeah, but to finish second in
14:45the championship would be, you know, much more respectable for England than it has been the last
14:49two, three, four years. So, you know, it's that, that again will be a step forward,
14:54but it still feels like both of it needed the victory more than the performance. And again,
14:57you know, as we discussed this, you know, at the weekend down at our local rugby club,
15:02would you rather play well and lose a la Wales or would you rather, you know, not play, not play
15:06particularly well, but scrape the win. And I think England needed the win more than the performance.
15:10But if they are, if they are going to keep performing at the top tier and have ambitions
15:14of actually winning this competition, they are going to have to put some layers into attack,
15:17which both of it's been sort of waxing lyrical about and saying about how you wanted them to
15:21be brave and throw the ball around. Well, didn't see any evidence of that. There's only one team
15:25that was throwing the ball around and that was Scotland. Yeah. There were just so many, like
15:31Marcus Smith isn't going to be going on the Lions tour as a test match fullback. I can tell you
15:35that right now, maybe, maybe, maybe in the midweek games, but like under the high ball,
15:40for example, he just wasn't able to, he wasn't competing with the Scotland wingers at all. Well,
15:45when it came that way, so good attacking from that position, but I think you identified it defensively
15:52a bit like it's probably the most frustrating thing for me from the entire game is that
15:58if you were to actually go player for player in terms of individually who had a better game,
16:06I think also you give the entire front row goes to England because the dominated the scrum,
16:12like that was one of Scotland's biggest problems was that we're getting destroyed in the scrum.
16:17Xander Fagerson for me had one of his worst games in a Scotland shirt that I can remember
16:22because he usually sets such a high standards. But then like, I think the line now, for example,
16:29Scotland's Scotland's line, it was marginally better than England's of it was pretty close.
16:34We weren't really anything in it. Jamie Ritchie in the back row was absolutely sensational for
16:39Scotland. Ben White had a terrific game at nine. Let's not talk about Finn Russell,
16:45Hugh Jones at 13. Again, probably there were so many players like Duane van der Merwe got man of
16:51the match and rightly so not just for attacking, but when he chased down Marcus Smith to deny that
16:56try early in the second half, I had to kind of double take and then speak to the guy next to him
17:00and was it actually do he that caught him? Was it? It was like, yeah, it was. I was like, wow,
17:05you know, he's a test match lion. Yeah. Kyle Rowe had an excellent game stepping in for Darcey
17:13Graham. Hugh Jones was terrific. Jamie Ritchie was terrific. I could go on and on. And that's
17:18the thing that really killed me was that so many of those Scotland players did not deserve to be
17:24on the losing side of that match. But Gregor Townsend said afterwards.
17:33We won. We beat them three tries to what they won. He didn't say we beat them. Sorry. I don't
17:39want to put words in his mouth. He said we scored three tries. They scored one. And I kind of rolled
17:45my eyes a little bit. And I went, well, yeah, you did. But, you know, you still lost the game.
17:49And then when I was on my way, I was in the hotel going back to my room that night and there were
17:53some England fans in the lift and asked them what they thought. And they said the exact same thing.
17:57They said we were terrible. We were beating three tries to one, but we still won the game.
18:01All right. Yeah. Everyone's sort of echoing that sentiment. By the time I had time to digest it,
18:06I kind of agreed. I can't let the referee and performance go by without addressing it,
18:12but I'll make it clear. I'm not going to sit here and be bitter about it.
18:15The referee did not cost Scotland that game by Scotland's too many penalties and just a lack of
18:25final precision. Red zone efficiency. Yeah. The number of times in the 22 and didn't score.
18:30And it's happened. I remember watching England, particularly against Ireland in days gone by.
18:34Dominate the first half and be only three points or so up and you'd say
18:38that's going to come back and bite us. And I didn't think it would be quite as close as it was,
18:42but I did worry for Scotland having all that possession, all that territory in the first half
18:46and only been a couple of points up at half time. You know, you have to have to finish those
18:50chances when you get them at international rugby. I mean, if we're being really harsh here, well,
18:54maybe it's not even really harsh, but is it not Finn Russell's boot which has cost Scotland there?
18:59He's missed his conversions, including a crucial one. I know it's a tough kick,
19:03but the first one was an absolute for his quality. It should have been as a fly half
19:12hoping to start for the lines in the summit. Is he now top of the pecking order,
19:17judging by the six nations for me? No. If you look at it as general talent across
19:21the last 24 months and beyond, probably yes. But I think the Irish 10 Prendergar and
19:28Finn Smith have sort of moved ahead of them in terms of the summer. I like Finn Russell. I do,
19:33but I just think this sort of the maverick nature can let Scotland down. And it's really,
19:37really harsh because he's so good. But I think that's where the game was won and lost. You need
19:42that. I thought, and it's revisionism to a degree because Dan Biggar at times did let Wales down.
19:50All players do. All 10s do. Johnny Sexton missed kicks for Ireland. Johnny Wilkinson says nobody
19:56remembers the ones you miss, just the ones you make to win sort of tournaments and stuff like
20:01that. But sometimes when Scotland need him, I just find he goes, he goes missing at times.
20:08I certainly think he's not been on, on his very best form of the six nations. I mean,
20:11he has, you know, he made quite a few mistakes in some of the earlier games and yes, yeah.
20:16Everybody has a bad day from the tea, but certainly to get zero percent is, you know,
20:21would not be great. And he should be getting at least the first one, whether he's completely,
20:25you know, dropped down the pecking order of the lines. We'll have to wait and see,
20:28but I do think he does need a performance just to kind of reassert himself. Because
20:31before this tournament, we all said, yeah, he's nailed on starting. And I do think he has
20:34slipped or, and at least others have tried catching him up a little.
20:37And then to be fair, there's a slight mitigation with the last one as well.
20:40I saw some posts on X from Tom English. He's the BBC Scotland rugby pundit. And he
20:49doesn't think that it was, it was taken from the correct position. It should have been
20:52slightly out into the field, which, which would have helped the kick. And it's those five margins.
20:57He said as well, when the try went in, Dua Vandermeer could have maybe curled his running
21:01and not put it down so soon. It's all if, buts and maybes, but I just thought that was where
21:05the game was, was, was won and lost. Yeah. So on Finn Russell, like Phil says, everyone has a bad
21:13day from a boot. Finn Russell is an excellent place kicker normally. And I just, I think that game,
21:18you just put that off as a bit of an anomaly. Stepping into the boots of Greg Laidlaw,
21:24who was one of, for my money, one of the best kickers from the T of all time consistently,
21:30and his numbers back that up at test level, that was a big ask. And Finn Russell wasn't
21:35a kicker anywhere near that level and still isn't, let's be honest, but very few people
21:40are that good, but he's become so much better than when he initially was tasked with that.
21:44And so it's more consistent. So I'd be willing to write that game off as an anomaly and with
21:50against England. Finn Russell was absolutely excellent. Some of the passes he was making,
21:55the lines, terrific, but the biggest problem, the two biggest problems with Finn Russell here,
22:01if we're going to talk about his line chances, was his kicking from hand against England was
22:06not good enough. That, that we've seen the past two six nations matches that has really
22:12been England's undoing was when Russell was making these 50-22s, all these great kicks,
22:19and he just wasn't bringing that at the weekend. And then his leadership, like I backed him as a
22:24potential Lions captain, I think, and I'm just, like you say, that kick was not the referee.
22:29Finn Russell goes to take it in the correct position and the referee goes, no, it's over
22:34there. And I know you can't argue with the referee, but a decent captain goes, no, it isn't.
22:40He scored, he scored there. That's the kicks here.
22:44Maybe he says, go, maybe he says, go and have a look at it. It's the last kick of the game. Can
22:48we get this right, please? Which exactly, in fairness, the way I always judge Finn Russell
22:55for me as a Wales fan is against Dan Biggar. I absolutely love Dan Biggar. He could have
22:59stinkers, don't get me wrong, but in pressure moments, he knew what to say at the right time.
23:03And he would do the basics well. And I think Finn Russell is a very different tenant. Perhaps we
23:08shouldn't measure him against the likes of Sexton and Biggar, who were sort of test match animals.
23:12And him being a maverick is his strength in a way. It's what makes him such a great player.
23:17But then the flip side to that is sometimes the basics, as you say, kicking with a ball in hand,
23:22which obviously is a tough skill. But when you don't do that well and you don't hit from the tee,
23:26you start really, it starts to become noticeable, doesn't it?
23:31It does. We're going to take another short break now, but we'll continue this discussion
23:35afterwards because we need to look ahead to Scotland against Wales.
23:39Welcome back. So, yeah, obviously we've gone through everything that happened at
24:08Twickenham. What was Scotland's undoing and England getting their hands on the trophy.
24:14But now we've got certainly the biggest match in the Six Nations for both of these teams now.
24:20What will be the game that kind of potentially defines their tournament? I feel this is looking
24:25like Wales on the back of their performance against Ireland need to show that wasn't a one-off.
24:31Again, I think they want to show they can take a step forward and actually win a match after
24:37playing well. But even if they don't and they run Scotland close, that's still going to be
24:41quite reassuring given that it's at Murrayfield. Had this one been in Cardiff, I think Wales need
24:46to be targeting the win, but really just going up to Murrayfield and potentially like getting a
24:51losing bonus point or a try scoring bonus point would be something to not celebrate, but certainly
24:57feel optimistic about. And then Scotland, I don't know, I worry because I think when we saw France
25:04lose to England, as Phil said in our last show and was proven spectacularly right, they were
25:12pissed off and they wanted to take that out on Italy. I don't see Scotland as being a, we are
25:19angry that we lost a game we should have won and we are going to take that out on another team and
25:27get all these points on the board against them. I think instead there's now going to be a weight of
25:32expectation on Wales, on Scotland and on Gregor Townsend. It's like, look, we'll let those two,
25:39we'll let that defeat Ireland and England. We won't let it go, but if you lose this one,
25:46it's proper questions asked time for Gregor Townsend, I think.
25:49I was going to say exactly the same thing in a sense that the weight of expectation for Scotland,
25:54because it feels like sort of a free hit for Wales now they've improved, you know,
25:59they haven't won a game, but there's a little bit of happiness around the Welsh set up. Nobody
26:03really expects them to go away and win at Scotland. Let's face it, Scotland have been
26:07better than Wales for what, two years at least, maybe a touch longer. So in terms of that
26:13expectation from the Scotland standpoint, that could weigh heavy and I'd be interested to know
26:18what your thoughts would be on the Murrayfield crowd if it doesn't go Scotland's way in the
26:24first sort of 30, 35 minutes. Will there be moments of discontent, grumblings? Is that how
26:28it works up there or would they stick with the team?
26:33I can't, you know, I don't, I don't see them as ever being a crowd that completely turns on a
26:40team, but I was noticeable in the Italy game, I was in the crowd rather than the press box for
26:46the Italy game. It was noticeable that when the game, the pendulum swung towards Italy,
26:52that the crowd kind of died a little bit. It was like, it makes me think of a famous Sir Alex
27:00Ferguson quote from his time as Aberdeen manager when he said, you could, you could tell when they
27:05were losing because you could hear the crisp packets being rattled. And it was, it was a
27:11wee bit like that at Murrayfield. It just kind of went silent at points, like with 60 plus thousand,
27:1760,000 plus people in there. And I do worry, but then again,
27:23ifs, buts and ands, you know, the Italy game, the Wales game sells out immediately and the Italy
27:28game is kind of the one, it's almost like the, the bring a friend, bring a family member who's
27:33never been to the rugby before game. Do you know what I mean? Whereas the Wales game will be the,
27:37the proper fans. So I don't really have concerns about the atmosphere per se in that one,
27:45but it will be interesting to see, for example, if, if Wales kind of really were controlling the
27:54game and had a lead on the scoreboards, I would be fascinated to see what that Murrayfield reaction
28:00would be. But I would like to think, and I would predict it will be a positive one. It will be a
28:05get behind the team rallying call sort of one. I think Wales, Wales will definitely have moments
28:11in the game, but I don't really envisage them being in a position where it's abundantly clear
28:18that they're going to win for a large part of the game, if that makes sense. Like you could argue it
28:22was, it was on the cards against Ireland and they led for a massive portion of the game, didn't they?
28:27But you always felt that it was in touching distance that Ireland could get back in at any
28:31point, despite Wales as a good player. I don't envisage them ever being in a scenario against
28:35Scotland in which it's abundantly clear that they're definitely going to win.
28:39Yeah, I think what Wales do have their advantage is that they now have belief and they have a
28:42really simple game plan that they know how to execute. So as we said before, the shackles are
28:46off. They've got the right players playing in the right positions who know each other,
28:50understand what the game plan is. They can just go out and rip it up. So it's going to be really
28:55interesting. And as we said, Gregor Townsend's already had a few grumblings behind his back
29:00about has he wasted this golden generation? I think if Scotland were to lose this as well,
29:04then, you know, that sort of conversation, that noise just gets a bit louder.
29:09It turns up even more.
29:12Well, let's talk about the final game of the weekend. I'm afraid I'm going to have to let
29:17you two lead on this because just to fill you in, I was obviously at Twickenham on Saturday.
29:24I had an early morning, half five in the morning wake up call to get my flight
29:28home to Scotland on the Sunday. I was then at my local football club at St Johnstone to watch
29:34Hearts Against St Johnstone as part of my role with Edinburgh Evening News,
29:38which kicked off at 12. So by the time I got back, I was shattered and I fell asleep on the
29:44couch at halftime and woke up with five minutes to go absolutely astonished, rubbing the sleep
29:49out of my eyes, checking that scoreline. You didn't miss anything. No, there's hardly any
29:54tries. It's a very boring game. Yeah, I mean, it was funny because I was watching a bit of
29:59Super Rugby on Saturday morning and me and my son were sort of saying, oh, Super Rugby's like
30:03defence is optional. And it felt a little bit like that in that France-Italy game. It was like,
30:07you touch the ball, we're going to score, kick off, catch it, score again. And, you know,
30:11as we've also mentioned, Sean Edwards, had he had any hair left, would have surely pulled some of
30:16it out, some of the holes that France left. But they came, they delivered. Again, we talked about
30:22the pressure that we thought Townsend might be under. Interestingly, Fabian Gauthier had also
30:27come under a bit of pressure after the England loss. I mean, that's the other thing. How on
30:30earth did that French team lose to England two weeks ago? It's unbelievable, but it just goes
30:35to show, you know, and even the fact that this fixture last year was, was it 16-0 draw or
30:40something? It was, you know, it was a low scoring, you know, tight game. As we said, I think France
30:47were always going to respond. What's, what's frightening for everybody else is you look at
30:50the players that weren't in that team. The fact that, you know, you could, it could just throw
30:55Damien Panev out the team and say, well, we don't need you. We're going to bring in some other
30:58players. And wow, look at this, you know, BL Barry's ripping up. Barry comes in at fullback,
31:03looks absolutely to the man of Bourne. It would be interesting, assuming that Antomac comes back
31:07after his ban, whether he slots back in at 10 or whether they keep Ramos, they've got such an
31:11embarrassment of riches. And again, you know, sometimes you wonder about these kinds of bench
31:17selections where a 7-1 bench was, was pretty gutsy as well. And it played off again, look at this
31:22absolute monsters that were coming off the bench. And if you're Italy, you would just,
31:28your heart must've sunk. Again, Italy, I thought played really well, really bravely.
31:32Brexit and Mancello in that centre partnership look fantastic. Again, it occasionally cut France
31:36to ribbons, but when they're in the mood and the ball stick, which they didn't at Twickenham,
31:41France are untouchable, I think. You mentioned Ramos there, eight conversions from him. So if
31:47he doesn't think that he's keeping his place, then I'm not sure. Sorry, can I just say something
31:53here? Eight conversions, but France scored 11 tries. So he missed the same amount of kicks as
31:59Finn Russell. He actually, he actually didn't, he missed, he missed one less because Lukaku got the,
32:04the, I think the last conversion. I apologise Thomas Ramos, if somehow you're watching,
32:10purely apologise. It was a great watch, it really was. Yeah. And that, that, that French team look
32:19like, when they play like that, they look like the complete perfect team. If you're building
32:24from scratch, you would say, what do I want? I want a pack that are the size of orcs. I want them
32:29to kind of smash things, but also have beautiful soft hands. And then behind it, I want to have,
32:34you know, Dupont was just absolutely everywhere. Like say, when you have a scrim off, it's going
32:38to pick and go around the corner of a rock and still making, you know, making go forward. You
32:42know that he's not just a mercurial talent, he's also phenomenally strong. And then you have those
32:47players out, out the back that cut lines. I thought Barry was superb, the way you just kind
32:52of appear on his shoulder, little shoulder ball, full speed and go into the post. The wings, you
32:57know, look fabulous. Yeah. They look like everybody's fantasy team of what a rugby team
33:02should be. And again, if we touch on the number of players that they're missing and that have to
33:06come back, they can, in theory, only get better. Yeah. And you kind of have to wonder now, like,
33:14well, it's for both teams. It's such an odd result for both teams, because obviously I think
33:20France are still in the title race and they'll potentially beat, they would probably almost,
33:26yeah, they'll probably most certainly almost likely be champions if they beat Ireland, I think.
33:32Unless, because there's bonus points and all, it's so much harder to predict these things than it
33:37used to be. Unless Ireland picked up like two losing bonus points, which is entirely possible.
33:44So I guess we don't know. We'll have to wait and see. And then they've got Scotland and Paris and
33:49God, that could go any way, to be fair. Just with France, the way they are and Scotland,
33:55the way they are. And I wouldn't predict that game for the life of me, to be honest.
34:00And then you look at Italy and it's just, it's such a, the scoreline's got to be frustrating
34:07because we're in that game for such a long period and then it just got away from them. And we're
34:12here now and no one's criticizing Italy. No one's, five years ago, if Italy had have got,
34:18what was it, and then had 73 points put past them, we would be back having a discussion
34:25about why George aren't getting a shot in the Six Nations. But we're not doing that because
34:31again, you can't call it an anomaly because Italy do get beaten by these score margins
34:36and they have been, but this Italian team is better than that. I feel like France could do
34:42that to like, they could have done it to Wales. Yeah. They could, they could like,
34:45with the exception of South Africa, New Zealand and Ireland, I feel like France could turn up
34:49and just go bang. Even, even England and Scotland, I feel like it could happen. Like it's, it's a bit
34:56more unlikely, but they're that good in attack. It's ridiculous. I honestly think they could do
35:00it to anyone apart from South Africa. I think South Africa that will, they could realistically
35:05just the all Blacks or Ireland could be like, what the actual F just happened. What's going on?
35:12Whereas I think the South Africans would probably just go like, no, shut this down.
35:17Not today. Right. Just bring another seven foot lock on the pitch and we'll.
35:27Well, that's all we've got time for. Thank you very much, James. Thank you, Phil.
35:31Thank you very much if you've been watching, we'll be back in two weeks time after round
35:35four to look ahead to the final round of matches in the 2025 Six Nations.