A massive political showdown erupted over US President Donald Trump's claim that USAID under the previous administration led by Joe Biden allocated USD 21 million in funding to India for 'voter turnout'.
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00:00Let me raise the big questions.
00:02Have Donald Trump's verbal googly's and I'm calling them verbal googly's intentionally stumped India?
00:08Are Trump remarks getting needlessly tangled once again in politics here?
00:14Is there any proof on US bid to influence Indian polls?
00:18These are some of the questions that I want to raise.
00:20I'm joined by T.P. Srinivasan.
00:22He's former representative United Nations Washington D.C.
00:25By K.C. Singh, former secretary of the Ministry of External Affairs.
00:29And Irfan Nooruddin is professor Georgetown University School of Foreign Service.
00:33Tracks South Asia very closely.
00:35I appreciate all of you joining us. K.C. Singh to you first.
00:38What's your sense? Is this a storm in a teacup?
00:41Have we got egg on our face by immediately reacting to what Donald Trump said?
00:46And now finding there may be no evidence at least hard documented evidence
00:50to back the claim that United States was funding Indian elections on voter turnout?
00:57We've dealt with Trump for four years the last time he was president.
01:01And we know that he indulges in fact free politics.
01:04He splashes facts around.
01:06And the Indian thing is only one part of it.
01:09Look at his exchanges with Ukraine.
01:11He says he's given 500 billion dollars.
01:13And I want that many minerals back from Ukraine.
01:16The facts are that he's given only about 120 billion.
01:20And the EU have given more than that.
01:23So you know he just distorts figures.
01:26Therefore it's always dangerous to immediately react when you hear something coming from him.
01:31Either like Brzezinski you contend it.
01:34There is a reluctance in New Delhi not to do that.
01:37Because then he gets very upset.
01:39And you get into an altercation with him.
01:42Or you just put up now you take the so many million dollars for condoms in Gaza.
01:48Because Gaza the it was going into Israel is going to West Asia.
01:52The confusion is that the Gaza which is mentioned there is Gaza and Mozambique.
01:57And the condoms were going to fight HIV AIDS.
02:01It had nothing to do with Gaza and West Asia.
02:03So what Elon Musk has done.
02:05He's unleashed hundreds of these techno technocratic kids who are working for him.
02:11And they're going and pulling figures out.
02:13Not knowing the context.
02:15Not knowing the larger reality.
02:17But this is a program started by JFK in 1961.
02:21And JFK called it the developmental decade.
02:24Every country has it.
02:26We have a foreign assistance program.
02:28And in that democracy was always a part of it.
02:31Because US wanted to spread the message about free markets.
02:34And about democracy. It's not a secret.
02:37Is it possible that as a result some of the money that was supposedly meant to promote democratic values could have gone to NGOs.
02:45Which is then used by in this instance the BJP to suggest this was being done to benefit the opposition.
02:53Destabilize them. Or is that simply barking up the wrong tree.
02:57Rajdeep MHA monitors it. You would have seen over the last 2-3 years.
03:02They have taken away the permission of a number of NGOs to receive foreign funding.
03:07They are very closely monitoring. It's not external affairs ministry.
03:10MHA is closely monitoring all flow of funds.
03:13So if there was any nothing on their radar.
03:16Then certainly I don't see what is the rooha at the moment.
03:20Because it should have come up at that stage.
03:22They had like a tooth comb. You know CPR this and that.
03:26They stopped the funding of anyone.
03:28Even seen as marginally critical of the government.
03:30But something was seen as affecting democracy.
03:33Gone after it.
03:35You know Mr. Srinivasan what's your view?
03:38Has the government of India ended up overreacting?
03:42And without documented evidence to back these claims that actual money was sent.
03:4821 million dollars was sent to India.
03:50Which in any case is not a very big amount to influence an Indian election for God's sake.
03:54Do you believe the government of India could have handled this better?
03:57Or do you believe there could be something more that could come out in the weeks and months ahead?
04:02I agree with KC what may have happened.
04:07But one thing I can say is that this is against the USAID.
04:12Not against India.
04:14President Trump is wanting to close it down.
04:16And he wanted to enumerate lots of faults made by USAID.
04:21And in the process he found this figure somewhere and pushed it out.
04:25So we are getting tangled in his domestic politics.
04:28That's exactly it. He wants to cut back on USAID.
04:31And we are getting the blow back.
04:34Let me also tell you one thing.
04:36India is not one of the major aid receivers from the US.
04:39I remember when I was there, there was a Burton Amendment which used to come to the Congress every year.
04:44And we used to fight it tooth and nail.
04:47The resolution would say cut down 10% of assistance to India for human rights violations in India.
04:54And when we found out there was no USAID at all activity in India.
04:58We were not an aid receiver at all.
05:00But still we were fighting a shadow thinking that we are getting it without finding out whether we are actually getting it or not.
05:07So finally we decided not to fight it because we were not receiving any USAID at that time.
05:11And there was no point in fighting a huge battle in the Congress.
05:15So such things happen.
05:17But I think Mr. Jayashankar's point is valid.
05:21We have to look at it.
05:23And this is deserving a consideration.
05:25That he has to say for the sake of the President.
05:28But he is saying, I just want to understand.
05:30Surely this documented evidence of money coming from USAID which is an official government body of the United States
05:37would be available to our ministries.
05:39The Home Ministry would monitor it.
05:41The Ministry of Finance would monitor it.
05:43They have come out with a report.
05:45You know this suggestion that America was in some cloak and dagger manner operating seems a bit strange.
05:52Doesn't it to you?
05:54This foreign hand bringing in George Soros now.
05:58Yes.
06:00No that's all create headlines in India.
06:02That is why it happens.
06:04But as I said the Berton Amendment where we are fighting without even knowing whether we are getting any USAID.
06:09So similar thing will appear.
06:11This money may have gone to Bangladesh or it may not have gone to anybody else.
06:15But this will come out.
06:17I don't think we need to worry too much about this allegation.
06:19It's an anti-USAID position.
06:21Is this though Irfan Nooruddin, Elon Musk and Donald Trump at play using the Department of Government Expenses
06:29because they want to cut down on government expenses.
06:31We are told today 1500 people have been served termination notice in USAID in Washington.
06:38And India is getting tangled in the domestic politics unleashed by the Trump-Musk duo.
06:43Is that the sense you get in Washington?
06:46100% Rajdeep as your esteemed co-panelists said.
06:50I mean this is American domestic politics.
06:52It is an attack on USAID and more generally it is an attack on America's role in the world.
06:58I mean at the end of the day the idea that this money spent as your colleague Geeta Mohan said
07:03was characterized as not being helpful to America is false.
07:06What Kennedy and every president after that understood is that America's power in the world was because of soft power.
07:12This is money that goes to help poor people around the world fight malaria, to fight hunger, starvation.
07:18And increasingly in recent years to build market linkages, build entrepreneurship, etc.
07:24So what Trump and Musk are against is all of that.
07:27But look what happened over here is you had Trump essentially talking as Ambassador Singh said,
07:32factory politics, he's shooting from the hip.
07:35And what is the real claim over here?
07:37There are two claims.
07:38One is that money went for voter turnout.
07:40That in and of itself even if it was true and it's not true,
07:43even if it was true is not inherently controversial.
07:46Having more people participate in elections is a good thing.
07:49But the second thing he said was, first he said this is for going to my friend Mr. Modi.
07:55The second thing he said is they wanted someone else elected.
07:58It is that second statement that is completely irresponsible on the part of Mr. Trump
08:03because there's absolutely no evidence of any of that.
08:05And for the Indian government, for the pro-BJP side from Amit Malviya in the IT cell
08:11to seize on that is actually a second issue that we have to talk about,
08:15which is that it taps a deep insecurity within Indian politics right now
08:20about the role of civil society, about the role of a free media
08:24and the notion that any funding going to train media journalists,
08:28just looking at the information on your screen, on our screens right now,
08:32the kind of projects that are funded or to fund voter turnout is inherently anti-Mr. Modi,
08:37inherently anti-government and therefore inherently anti-India is deeply problematic.
08:43At the end of the day, every paisa that enters India from a foreign fund to an NGO
08:50is more scrutinized over the last decade than at any previous time.
08:54This is incredibly impossible.
08:55It's impossible to imagine that money in the amounts of millions
09:00is flowing into India to NGOs under the current government's watch
09:04and they have absolutely no clue as to how that money was being spent
09:08or what the memoranda of understanding were governing that.
09:11If that's true, that's actually an admission on their part of gross negligence.
09:15And I don't believe that that's what they're trying to say.
09:17Yeah, yeah, but let's, you know, you're saying that the whole notion of America
09:22getting deeply involved in enhancing voter turnout seems, you know,
09:27prima facie to be a bit strange in the context of India,
09:30but KC Singh documents show that it has gone to Bangladesh, which had an election
09:35and then there was the controversy over the manner in which the election was conducted,
09:38eventually led to Sheikh Hasina leaving the country, a student's revolt.
09:42So this notion that America is interfering, you see, there is this subtext
09:47that America wants to interfere and destabilize governments in South Asia
09:51and that's being preyed upon.
09:53Do you believe that there is a genuine fear
09:56or is this classic foreign hand started by Indira Gandhi in the 1970s
10:00now taken to another level by the Modi government?
10:04Look, it's been talked about openly for a long time that they were unhappy with Sheikh Hasina.
10:10That's not a secret and when she went, very clearly India has hinted,
10:15everybody has hinted that there is an American hand in this,
10:18but nowhere does it say that the US government, the last one or this one,
10:24wants to remove Mr. Modi. Mr. Modi is one of the most pro-US prime ministers India has had.
10:30Why would they want to replace him? Replace him with what?
10:33A government, you know, a UPA government?
10:37You don't know what the policy of that government may be.
10:40The BJP says it's not the US government, this is the deep state, the likes of George Soros.
10:48George Soros can send his own money. Nobody is claiming it's his money that has come.
10:52They're saying it's US government's, US aid money,
10:55for which they are accountable to their legislature
11:00and people are accountable here who are receiving that money.
11:03So it becomes, but this foreign hand thing is a very old gambit.
11:07It's not new. Anytime any leader feels he needs a stick to beat the opposition with,
11:13you pull out this argument of a foreign hand,
11:16though Mr. Modi is under no threat from the opposition at the moment.
11:20So I don't see why, what was the need for it?
11:22Unless the idea is keep the opposition as suppressed as you possibly can.
11:27You know, that's precisely the point, T.P. Srinivasan.
11:30You've dealt with America over the years.
11:32This is a period when there is a bipartisan consensus between Republicans and Democrats
11:38to have a pro-India approach to relations in South Asia.
11:43The old style hyphenation of India-Pak is over. They've hyphenated it.
11:48India is the focus.
11:49So why would anyone in the US want to jeopardize that relationship using US aid?
11:54And then when George Soros' name is tossed around,
11:57it seems that it's only used to keep the pot boiling.
12:00Should the government of the day be telling these IT cell warriors of theirs,
12:06lay off. You're only embarrassing us.
12:11No, talking about somebody trying to influence the elections,
12:15he is aiming at Biden.
12:17Because Biden is not supposed to have had a good relationship with India.
12:21And therefore, there were these rumors that he was trying to declare India non-democratic, etc.
12:26So he used that.
12:28But the whole thing, as I said earlier, is not aimed against India at all.
12:33This is a cost-cutting exercise.
12:35He's looking for evidence.
12:37In fact, in all this, the most ridiculous thing is,
12:40there was confusion between water and water.
12:43Whether this was for water to turn out, or to improve the water supply situation in India.
12:49So that is the amount of ridiculous interpretations being given.
12:54So I don't think it is a serious matter to be, you know…
12:58So should we just ignore? Are you saying, Mr. Srinivasan, we should ignore the…
13:03You know, Donald Trump may well come tomorrow morning and say,
13:06Look, I have given $25 million in…
13:09You know, the previous government gave $25 million to the Modi government
13:14for allegedly issues related to democracy.
13:18Should we just ignore the man? Is that the way to do it?
13:21Can you ignore the President of the United States?
13:23Yes.
13:25Yes, in this particular case, you can.
13:27You can at least wait till he comes back.
13:29I don't think we'll hear about it anymore.
13:31You know, Irrfan, you're smiling through this.
13:35You know, you're in Washington.
13:37So you probably know a little bit more about the way Donald Trump operates.
13:41Should the Indian government deal with him, you know,
13:44be ready at times to just ignore what he says,
13:47rather than react every time Donald Trump opens his mouth?
13:51You know, if we all have to learn how to ignore Donald Trump,
13:54are we going to go insane over the next four years?
13:57But the Indian government has to be secure in its own policies,
14:00its own regulations, off-the-cuff allegation
14:04that has been contradicted by the President himself,
14:07as your reporting suggested,
14:09four different statements that get the facts, that change the facts.
14:12We cannot be reacting every time he says something.
14:15The next thing he might say might be something that's about PLI.
14:18It's about manufacturing.
14:20He called India the tariff king, right?
14:23The truth of the matter is that Donald Trump says
14:25what he thinks his audience wants to hear in a given moment.
14:28We have to know what is actually true,
14:30and we have to do the facts.
14:32You asked earlier whether or not the IT cell should be told to calm down.
14:35It should.
14:36Think of the position that those tweets are putting the MEA in.
14:41If Dr. Jaishankar wants to do a serious probe and come out,
14:45the facts are going to show that there was no malfeasance over here.
14:48But the narrative construction being conducted
14:52by other elements supportive of the government
14:55will suggest that any such finding is prima facie incorrect,
15:00cannot be believed, because they've already linked it to George Soros.
15:03They've already linked it to all sorts of other sorts of allegations.
15:06So a serious government is secured
15:09in knowing what exactly is happening in its own country
15:12and can say, we know, we have vetted.
15:15No money comes from USAID that doesn't get vetted through here.
15:18We know who the recipients are.
15:20There are records on the books.
15:22We know when the money was spent.
15:24USAID projects are incredibly detailed
15:27about the exact activities to be done.
15:30So even something called voter participation
15:32could simply be helping people understand
15:35how to read the news, how to understand polls.
15:38That is not nefarious work.
15:41And there should be documents at MHA for each of these contracts.
15:45And if that's not, that's a separate set of issues
15:47that we should be asking why our government is allowing money
15:50to come in under the rules.
15:52I want to give KC 30 seconds to wrap this up for us.
15:56Should we have a white paper at all,
15:58as the opposition in India is now calling for?
16:01Or should we just now let sleeping dogs lie,
16:03let Donald Trump say what he wants, and not react?
16:06A quick reaction from you.
16:08I said, look at the irony of it.
16:10Who is saying that voters have been increased in the state elections?
16:14Is the opposition claiming it?
16:16That the ruling party has done it in Maharashtra, in Haryana,
16:19and so on and so forth?
16:20The ruling party is not saying that the opposition
16:22has increased the voters.
16:23Well, I think the lesson is that as long as Trump is president,
16:29he's already being domestically attacked.
16:31He'll be sufficiently weakened, some say,
16:33even within weeks, if not months.
16:36Because in town hall meetings, people are standing up
16:40and questioning even Republican congressmen.
16:43So there is a huge churn which is taking place.
16:46In the meanwhile, keep your seatbelts tightened.
16:50Do not react every time Trump says something,
16:53but also do question them.
16:55Don't go silent.
16:57You don't need to provoke him.
16:59But you can't also let it pass,
17:01because you are the largest democracy in the world.
17:04You can't be just sitting silently,
17:06nor using it to attack the opposition.
17:08So I think the lesson is treat it with a degree of confidence
17:13in your own nation.
17:14Quietly contradict him.
17:16By the same time, be ready for some more shocks
17:19as we go forward.
17:21Okay, we'll leave it there, KC Singh.
17:23Hopefully, some of the BJPs, IT cell warriors,
17:26and indeed the opposition is also listening.
17:29The last thing we want is to get Indian politics tangled
17:33in actually what is a policy debate taking place
17:36in the United States,
17:37and Trump using it to target his rivals there,
17:40and then we end up embarrassing ourselves in the process.
17:44Thank you very much to my guests for joining me.