Germany's far-right AfD party wants no enlargement of the EU, least of all the accession of Ukraine, says Beatrix von Storch, a leading figure of the party and deputy leader of its parliamentary group. She also called for a halt to German weapon deliveries to Kyiv and an end to the fighting in Ukraine. DW's Matthew Moore talked to her at the Alternative for Germany's party conference in Riesa.
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00:00I'm here at the Alternative for Germany party conference and the party has just
00:05officially declared that Alice Weidel will be the candidate for Chancellor in
00:08upcoming elections and joining me to discuss that and the party's platform is
00:12Beatrix von Storch, a member of the German Bundestag and a deputy leader of
00:16the parliamentary group there. Alice Weidel has just been nominated as
00:22your candidate for the first time that you've put forward a candidate in
00:24parliamentary elections. The party is at 20 odd percent in the polls
00:28potentially higher and yet the prospect of the party actually getting into power
00:33is almost zero because of this firewall. What prospects do you see for the party
00:38ever actually getting into power? Well we are now campaigning and explaining to
00:43the people if they want to have a political change they have to vote for
00:47AFD because all the CDU is telling the voters and all of the political change
00:52they're declaring they want to have and it's not possible if they only
00:58stick to green or red coalition partners. So we will make very very clear
01:03that everyone who really wants to have a shift in migration policy and energy
01:07policy, the two major topics, they have to vote for AFD and more and more
01:11voters do understand. We do see that in the uprise of our polls. We are very
01:17stable number two in all polls. We are going up, CDU is not going really up and
01:24so I think our message is out there and we will campaign on it. Another big
01:30story this week that everyone is talking about is Elon Musk endorsing the party
01:33and the space conversation with Alice Feidel. What opportunities or risks do
01:39you see in that kind of attention? I think it's the possibility for us to
01:44have a broad audience and just present our ideas. I think this is very fair, this
01:50is very democratic and everyone can make up its own opinion. We do not rely,
01:54people do not rely any longer on some kind of comments made by
02:00BBC, CNN, Deutsche Welle, whomever. They just can listen to what we say and
02:05they can make up their own opinion and I think Elon Musk of course was very
02:10helpful to get a broader audience for us and make a broader audience listening
02:18to us and I think that's good and I think even that's
02:24fair because we've been in all the media in the past, we've really been
02:30pushed back, we've really been not so well treated, we didn't have the same
02:35kind of presence in all the media so I think this gives a bit back
02:41what we were missing. Some people in the party though are wary about the
02:46influence that someone like Elon Musk could have on the party. Do you think
02:50that Elon Musk's interests are aligned with the party? I don't think that this is
02:56the centre point. I think the main interest for him is free speech
03:02and democracy and then give the people the possibility to make up their own
03:06opinions. This is why he bought X. He said it's not about a business model, it's
03:13about free speech and free speech is the most important brick to have
03:21democracy. It's the most important thing for democracy and so I think
03:27this is what he likes about us and of course there are huge issues
03:32we have got in line when it comes to anti-vokism and for free speech and
03:40others so we don't have to be in line politically and everything what we want.
03:44In the end we're fighting for German interests and Elon Musk is fighting for
03:49American interests and so we have to come back together, every country
03:54fighting for its own interests and then try to have a good dialogue and
03:58find a solution. You mentioned one of the big issues of this election being energy
04:03and your party is very pro a kind of a return to actually the energy mix that
04:07Germany had maybe 10-15 years ago that is pro coal, pro gas and pro restarting
04:13nuclear power stations. You're also anti very fiercely anti wind and anti solar
04:18why is that? Because it doesn't work and it ruins our industry basically that's
04:24the point so you cannot run a first world country with a huge industry on
04:29solar panels and wind and this is why we are very strong. We're not in general
04:36against it so it can be added to our energy supply. But the program talks
04:41about no more expansion of solar and wind. Alice Feidl today said that she thinks
04:47that we should start to dismantle wind and solar power so you send the
04:51message that you are against it. Yes I mean what we see at the very moment
04:55these solar panels and especially the windmills are ruining our economy so it's
05:01a very strong point to say we do not want to have anyone more we do not need
05:06more we need less. We can have some but we cannot rely as a nation. Why do you say they are ruining the economy?
05:13Because our energy supply is no longer stable and it's much much too expensive and it
05:20ruins our nature so our country is far too small to be able to to have all
05:26those windmills here and and this is why we're opposing it strongly. It just felt
05:31to me reading the program that when I saw that the party was saying that we
05:35are we are against the phasing out of combustion engine cars. We think that
05:41that's an ideologically driven policy. We reject that and we
05:47think the market should dictate technology and how it develops. So then
05:51on the other hand two pages later or so say wind and solar we find to be
05:57completely no use in future Germany under the AFD. Well what is very
06:02clear under all circumstances is that if our industry relies on wind and solar
06:08panels it cannot work properly because it's not stable. You can have
06:14that maybe in a third world country but not in a first world industry country
06:18and what we see in the world when a country develops they are starting off
06:23with a very small percentage of coal or even nuclear power plant energy supply
06:29and they have got a lot of wind and solar panels but when they
06:34were increasing and when they're developing then this percentage will go
06:38down. They will the more and more or the less and less rely on wind and solar
06:43panels. When the country develops it needs to have a stable energy supply
06:49chain and this is very clear so we cannot build. We do not have the
06:54possibility to fill batteries or to keep the energy produced
07:02within the day with sun or within the night with wind. People would say that's
07:09a failure to build the storage rather than a failure of the technology. This is
07:13very clear but what our government is doing they are destroying coal
07:18plants they are destroying they're blowing them up our nuclear power
07:23plants even though we have not yet developed any kind of storage. So this
07:28is we have to first come up with a solution and then change our energy
07:33production system but they're doing the other way around. They think
07:38there should be something new and while not having even developed this they are
07:43destroying what we have. We can see that our energy is no longer
07:48stable it's far too expensive and this is what we are opposing strongly and in
07:53a party convention like this when you speak out you make the point
07:58very very clear so that might sound a bit too strong but the general idea is
08:02this. On foreign policy there's a proposal for a referendum on Germany's
08:09membership of the European Union in the current draft manifesto. I think there
08:13will be a debate on that and in the course of the day. Where do you stand on
08:18it what should Germany offer or should the AFD offer and vote as a
08:22referendum on German membership? So generally spoken we are in favor of
08:28having the people vote on something directly. Direct democracy is something
08:33what we support from the very beginning and we think that especially the
08:39decisions of huge importance like introducing the euro or being member or
08:44not member of the European Union for example. They are of such big meaning
08:50that it is rightful to ask the people. So this is why we put that into our
08:56in the draft program. Let the people decide and we can see that in what
09:01happened in Great Britain and when they decided to have the Brexit or not. It was
09:07a huge debate going on for more than a year and then a very long and severe
09:15debate on it and then everyone could make up his own mind and in the end vote.
09:20So we think that's very transparent we think that's very democratic and we do
09:26not think the people out there in the country are stupid. We think the policy
09:31very often of all the other parties is very stupid but we do trust in the people.
09:35But so the alternative for Germany is going to stand for Germany
09:40leaving the European Union and offering voters a chance to vote on that?
09:44What is in our draft program is we want to transform the European Union in an
09:51organization of common economic interest and Wirtschafts- und Interessengemeinschaft
09:59so a community on common economic and interest of common economy and interest.
10:07I read that and I thought when I read it how can you ensure that other countries
10:13that are part of this membership this group don't undercut German labor costs
10:18don't subsidize and therefore benefit their own companies how do you ensure
10:22that because the European Union tries to do that you know everyone has its
10:27critics who tries to do that through this this Parliament and the Commission
10:31but so how would you do that with the new organization isn't there the risk
10:34that you just have the same problem?
10:35We want we want to have less a political union we do not think that we have to
10:40have everything in line in all the member states this is what we have in
10:44the European Union at the very moment so we do not think that is it's very good
10:49and very democratic to have majority votes which then decide with majorities
10:54from Spain, France, Italy how German taxpayers money might be spent in
11:00Romania we don't think that this is good and we do not think it's necessary to
11:05have everything in line you know we want to have only a union where we have a
11:11free market have a free exchange of goods and and make it possible of course
11:16also to travel easily without all those those border controls if that is
11:22possible but we do not want to have everything and this this the same
11:30standards and all political areas all over the the European Union we don't
11:34think this is in our interest and we realize that this has a huge support
11:39Another big foreign policy issue that faces Germany at the moment is the war
11:44in Ukraine there is not a lot of said about the war in Ukraine there's no
11:49criticism of Russia for the war why is that we think and we hope that the
11:57president-elect Trump will end the war very soon and we we have said that the
12:03whole time that this war has to be stopped and it has to be stopped by the
12:07United States as we all know it's not Zelensky who was in charge for anything
12:10so this is what we are hoping and in the past we decided to not deliver weapons
12:16for free because we do not believe that this has helped to end the war but why
12:21no condemnation of the war and Vladimir Putin and Russia because
12:26the party program is very critical of where the European Union has gone wrong
12:30but no criticism of Vladimir Putin why is that we did condemn that very very
12:34clearly now this is a program it's not to make a general political statement
12:38but it's our program on what we want for the future of this country so how we
12:43judge on illegitimate wars we have made that very clear it's not the place in
12:50our in the program that's not we're talking about here and what just
12:53generally the party program there's there's a lot of skepticism towards the
12:58US's imperial might if you like I'm not a lot of skepticism about Russia is the
13:05party for people outside Germany where does the party stand on this doesn't want
13:09closer relationships with the US or closer relationships with Russia our
13:15basic point when it comes to foreign policy is we want to have policy in the
13:20interest of Germany and it is in our interest to have of course close
13:23relation with our American partners as well as it is of interest of huge
13:31interest of us to have a good relation to Russia as well and I think this has
13:35been neglected in the in the in the past so when it comes to the German
13:40government they they went they went now very clearly against the United States
13:44because they are not in line with the present the current president and they
13:47they went they didn't even want to go into talks with Putin to end the war
13:53they only wanted to deliver weapons and they were not in favor to listening to
13:57the interest of the Russians so we don't think there was a lot of I think there
14:00was a lot of attempts to try to negotiate with Putin all I've saw is the
14:03Chancellor of Germany went to Moscow and sat down so there were attempts he
14:07just wasn't willing to negotiate I think he's just of no importance I think
14:12that's the main problem so Germany doesn't play a role any longer and we
14:17the other countries don't take us for serious we are economically weak and the
14:22person we are presenting our foreign minister is just is just a joke I mean
14:26no one takes her serious so so the German impact on foreign policy is is far
14:32too small and this is also something we should change but one of the other
14:36aspects of the program is that it's the party wants to rebuild Nord Stream 2 and
14:41start Nord Stream 2 the pipeline from Russia to Germany right but that is
14:45obviously something that the US administration is deeply against how
14:49does that play out then when Alice Weidower becomes Chancellor of Germany
14:53and the US president says hey I don't like that is she going to stand up to
14:57the US president yes we have to fight for our own interests I think we have to
15:02make that point very clear and this is also something the way we're addressing
15:05Russia we have to do what is in our interest and delivering weapons to Ukraine
15:10or having sanctions on Russia it's not in our own interest so we have to stop
15:14it and the same thing to the United States there are some some things which
15:18are in our main interest which is for example receiving gas from Russia
15:23through the pipelines and we know that they are not in favor they want to sell
15:28their very expensive LNG gas to us and we don't want that and then we have to
15:33negotiate and but the most important thing is we have to communicate with
15:39another and not stop communication in either way. The final point is about the
15:45Verfassungsschutz this is the protection the security services in Germany have
15:48said that part of the party that you're in is suspected right-wing extremist
15:55what are you doing to address that? I think we have to explain who is the
16:01Verfassungsschutz it doesn't exist in any other Western democracy and the
16:06Verfassungsschutz is not an independent governor or something
16:10independent it's the government so it's the government going against the
16:15opposition party and declaring it somehow extremist this is what they're
16:20doing so it's the government going against the opposition this should not
16:23be possible in any democracy and this is not being implemented in any other
16:28Western democracy as we know them. But it is independent? It's not independent it's the
16:34government it is the government straightly the Minister for Interior
16:38Affairs is the is the boss of the Verfassungsschutz president so it is
16:43directly the minister and he has to do what the the the Innenminister the
16:48Minister for Interior Affairs is saying he has to do and that's what he does so
16:53it's not independent. However the the case has been to court judges have
16:59ruled on it and said that it that it is okay to label the party as a suspected
17:03case of right-wing extremism part of the the youth organization is also labeled
17:08a kind of established as a proven case that means that enough people have
17:13grounds to believe that there are people in the party that are fighting to
17:17destroy German democracy in the Constitution and I'm asked I just
17:20wonder obviously you dismiss it but what do you what are you doing to
17:24address it is it does it mean is it meaningless? What we see is the concerns
17:30of the people out there and we know that the media is is against us the whole
17:34time they're bringing it up the whole time they're trying to frighten the
17:38people and then they're trying to tell the people that we want to stop
17:41democracy and that we are fighting democracy and this is the contrary is
17:45true they are fighting democracy and we are trying to protect it and we can see
17:50that in the polls that the support for AfD is rising even though there are some
17:55sources constantly trying to explain they against the Constitution they evil
18:00they're bad people don't care any longer they have got severe problems and they
18:04want this problems to be addressed by politicians and political parties and
18:09this is what we're doing.